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[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote..

A common misconception.  The Catalyst doesn't determine the functions of the Crucible, the quality of its construction does.  "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."  The options are build into the Crucible, a device who's origins the Reapers had no known involvement in.  The Catalyst, in aiding you in the activation of your weapon, is actually surrendering to you, not vice versa. 

"The Crucible is little more than a power source."

The Crucible's effects are determined by how damaged it is. The Catalyst says this too.
All of the Crucible's functions are activated ON THE CITADEL. The Crucible is just a power source. Therefore, the Citadel provides the functions and the Crucible is a giant battery.

Unless you're calling the Catalyst a liar. Are you calling the Catalyst a liar?

[alienatedflea]

elitehunter34 wrote...
And you are misunderstanding IT.  IT states that Shepard is fighting off an Indoctrination attempt.  An attempt.
Shepard is not fully indoctrinated in the Indoctrination Theory.  Shepard only becomes fully Indoctrinated if Shepard chooses Synthesis or Control according to the Indoctrination theory.  If you are going to criticize something, at least get your facts straight.

but indoctrination isnt sensed or felt...so one would never know if an attempt of indoctrination...and IT is just a way to bash those like myself find all endings to reasonably acceptable for various reasons...

Modifié par alienatedflea, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:56 .

[Arisugawa]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...
Using the Crucible is all well and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since you are using options gifted to you by the Reaper God to end the war (Control & Destroy), or doing exactly what the Reapers want (Synthesis).

A common misconception.  The Catalyst doesn't determine the functions of the Crucible, the quality of its construction does.  "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."  The options are build into the Crucible, a device who's origins the Reapers had no known involvement in.  The Catalyst, in aiding you in the activation of your weapon, is actually surrendering to you, not vice versa. 

This isn't a misconception at all. . The mechanims to activate the Crucible are part of the Citadel. The construction of the Crucible means nothing. I can skip every War Asset related to the Crucible and so long as my EMS is high enough, the endings remain as is.

The Catalyst isn't changed, despite what it says. The fact that it can deny you the use of the Crucible if you shoot at it proves that. It doesn't have to let you use any of these options. It doesn't have to bring up to the exterior of the Citadel tower. These are its choices.

The entire ending of the Mass Effect series is dependant on pleasing the Reaper God, and that's that.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:57 .

[AresKeith]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote..

A common misconception.  The Catalyst doesn't determine the functions of the Crucible, the quality of its construction does.  "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."  The options are build into the Crucible, a device who's origins the Reapers had no known involvement in.  The Catalyst, in aiding you in the activation of your weapon, is actually surrendering to you, not vice versa. 

"The Crucible is little more than a power source."

The Crucible's effects are determined by how damaged it is. The Catalyst says this too.
All of the Crucible's functions are activated ON THE CITADEL. The Crucible is just a power source. Therefore, the Citadel provides the functions and the Crucible is a giant battery.

Unless you're calling the Catalyst a liar. Are you calling the Catalyst a liar?

he isn't, he's determined to call himself right

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote..

A common misconception.  The Catalyst doesn't determine the functions of the Crucible, the quality of its construction does.  "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."  The options are build into the Crucible, a device who's origins the Reapers had no known involvement in.  The Catalyst, in aiding you in the activation of your weapon, is actually surrendering to you, not vice versa. 

"The Crucible is little more than a power source."

The Crucible's effects are determined by how damaged it is. The Catalyst says this too.
All of the Crucible's functions are activated ON THE CITADEL. The Crucible is just a power source. Therefore, the Citadel provides the functions and the Crucible is a giant battery.

Unless you're calling the Catalyst a liar. Are you calling the Catalyst a liar?

Whatever the Crucible makes possible by being connected to the Citadel is the result of the Cruicble's design and its implimentation.  This is clearly stated in the game.  Also in case you missed it I did respond to your previous post after I saw it.

The mechanims to activate the Crucible are part of the Citadel.

And the Crucible was designed to interact with the Citadel in such a way as to make these things possible.  Vendetta tells us this itself.  Once again the game contradicts your assertion.

The Catalyst isn't changed, despite what it says

Not stated in the game. 

he isn't, he's determined to call himself right

Everything I've said comes directly from the game.  It's not that I'm right, it's that I'm attentive, and I choose to reject other people's headcanon which finds faults with the ending that are neither stated nor implied in the game.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:59 .

[Arisugawa]

Double post.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:57 .

[AlanC9]

[quote]Arisugawa wrote...

[quote]This isn't a misconception at all. . The mechanims to activate the Crucible are part of the Citadel. The construction of the Crucible means nothing. I can skip every War Asset related to the Crucible and so long as my EMS is high enough, the endings remain as is.
[/quote]

But with low EMS the Crucible is damaged before use.

[Kamfrenchie]

Geneaux486 wrote...

If you destroyed the base in Mass effect 2, everything blew up, but in ME3 the baby reaper survives regardless...contradiction ?

Peices of the human-reaper survive the explosion.  We knew even in Lair of the Shadow Broker that tthe destroyed Collector Base left debris in its wake.  Not only is there no contradiction, but none of that has any relevance to what I said about the ending of ME3 either.

Arisugawa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

Control means Control. Synthesis means Synthesis. Destroy means Destroy. Refuse means Surrender. Endings will not be changed. There will be no additional endings. You should deal with it and accept the endings as they are.

How the hell does refuse mean surrender?

Refusal can be interpreted as a surrender because in the end, you allow the Reapers to do exactly what they came to do. Eliminate life, continue the cycle, etc. Regardless of the moral stand you took against the Catalyst, it can still be seen as laying down your burden and letting the enemy win.

I'm not saying that's what Refusal is supposed to mean, mind you, but I can see how some would interpret it as such.

Exactly, the Crucible is in position, Shepard's mission is to activate it at all costs, and in Refusal, Shepard turns his back on his orders, his friends, and his allies, who suffered and died to build the thing and get it into place, walks away from his own weapon, and allows the Reapers to continue their cycle.

there is no way usable piece of the human reaper coul survive the explosion, and no way TIM shouldbe able to recover that muc, it wasin th every center of thebase, an we killed it before, so yeah there shouldn't be anything left. So for all intent and purposes, mass effect 2 parangon ending is fake, sinceboth amound to the samething in th end.

Debri =/= enough to rebuild the larva reaper

Also, not evryone play DLC...

Again, contradiction.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Whatever the Crucible makes possible by being connected to the Citadel is the result of the Cruicble's design and its implimentation.  This is clearly stated in the game.  Also in case you missed it I did respond to your previous post after I saw it.

It is a result of it providing a significant power source. Again. Are you saying the Catalyst is lying?

And the Crucible was designed to interact with the Citadel in such a way as to make these things possible.  Vendetta tells us this itself.  Once again the game contradicts your assertion.

Vendetta is making assumptions. Are you saying Vendetta knows more about it than the Catalyst?

[Geneaux486]

AlanC9 wrote...

But with low EMS the Crucible is damaged before use.

And its possible functions are more limited.

there is no way usable piece of the human reaper coul survive the explosion, and no way TIM shouldbe able to recover that muc, it wasin th every center of thebase, an we killed it before, so yeah there shouldn't be anything left. So for all intent and purposes, mass effect 2 parangon ending is fake, sinceboth amound to the samething in th end.

You don't know any of this, you're assuming, and your assumption is contradicted by the fact that the human-reaper fragments do survive.

It is a result of it providing a significant power source. Again. Are you saying the Catalyst is lying?

If it changed the Catalyst, then it is more than a power source, and we know it changed the Catalyst.  Doesn't mean the Catalyst is lying, means that he's giving us details little by little over the course of the entire conversation.

Vendetta is making assumptions

Nothing to suggest that Vendetta is making assumptions, I reject that headcanon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities."

"The Crucible is little more than a power source."

You can't refute something that is outright stated in the game.  As for your chosen response, I'm surprised to hear it from you.  That kind of crap is beneath you.

The synthesis ending is refuted by events and facts throughout the trilogy.
 

It is something they were incapable of doing, proof that their perceived superiority was a lie. 

Irrelevant. Their technological stagnancy isn't the issue. Their desires are.

As for control, whatever you think happens, Reapers remain in control of the galaxy. Nothing will happen without their consent. That isn't what I fought for.

The opposite of this winds up being the case as shown in the EC.

No, using the Crucible ends the Reaper threat, it's the Catalyst surrendering to you.  This is shown to us by the victory that results in all three choices, whether it's the destruction of the Reapers, their conversion into servants of the galaxy at Shepard's command, or their liberation from their imposed functions by synthesis.  To say otherwise is to ignore the endings themselves.

Surrendering ends a threat. That's sort of the point o surrendering.
The Catalyst has already decided it's current solution doesn't work. Shepard has no input on this. The Catalyst has determined this on it's own and now desires a new solution. You are doing what it wants.

[Arisugawa]

AlanC9 wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...
This isn't a misconception at all. . The mechanims to activate the Crucible are part of the Citadel. The construction of the Crucible means nothing. I can skip every War Asset related to the Crucible and so long as my EMS is high enough, the endings remain as is.

But with low EMS the Crucible is damaged before use.

Sure, but that's a reflection of your military strength and ability to protect it. THAT makes sense. But it doesn't affect the construction of the Crucible in the slightest, nor does ignoring the War Assets assigned to it.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[Geneaux486]

"The Crucible is little more than a power source."

Which changed him and created new possibilities.  The device created them, not the Catalyst.  This is clearly stated in the ending.

The synthesis ending is refuted by events and facts throughout the trilogy.

Again, you cannot refute something that is clearly stated in the game.  It's not theoretical, it's shown directly to us in the epilogue.  Nothing in the rest of the trilogy contradicts it, as it's a previously unknown peice of tech and a concept that was not explored, a new solution that nobody thought possible.

Irrelevant. Their technological stagnancy isn't the issue. Their desires are.

It is relevant because it disproves the assertion that the Reapers are the highest forms of life.  It proves the Catalyst wrong.

Surrendering ends a threat. That's sort of the point o surrendering.
The Catalyst has already decided it's current solution doesn't work. Shepard has no input on this. The Catalyst has determined this on it's own and now desires a new solution. You are doing what it wants.

The Catalyst is surrendering to Shepard, acknowleging the superiority of the Crucible, the lack of validation to its own solution, and the need to find a new one via the weapon created by organics.  Stated in the game.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[AresKeith]

@Geneaux how about you post the link to the ending since you claim its stated in the game

[jijeebo]

Yes OP, I do still believe that Control and Synthesis are perfectly fine endings... Even after the incredibly original and thought-provoking argument you made.


Shoot me.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Which changed him and created new possibilities.  The device created them, not the Catalyst.  This is clearly stated in the ending.

So you're calling the Catalyst a liar.

Again, you cannot refute something that is clearly stated in the game.  It's not theoretical, it's shown directly to us in the epilogue.  Nothing in the rest of the trilogy contradicts it, as it's a previously unknown peice of tech and a concept that was not explored.

It is stated by a source that had previously stated her desire to never be a part of anything like this, with extremely suspicious wording and unbelievable circumstances (people happily standing beside Reapers shortly after the war? Come on.).

It is relevant because it disproves the assertion that the Reapers are the highest forms of life.  It proves the Catalyst wrong.

Again, this is irrelevant to the fact that the Reapers desire synthesis, and synthesis vindicates them by turning all life into Reaper-forms.

The Catalyst is surrendering to Shepard, acknowleging the superiority of the Crucible, the lack of validation to its own solution, and the need to find a new one via the weapon created by organics.  Stated in the game.

This is pure headcanon. The Catalyst outright states that the Crucible is just a power source, and that it's decision that it's current solution no longer works has little to do with the Crucible and more the arbitrary rule that an organic made it as far as to interact with it.

Again, why do you ignore the fact that the Crucible's functions are activated on the Citadel? Why would they be there? Why would the Catalyst say that it's little more than a power source? Why did it lie about thinking the "concept" had been eradicated when indoctrinated Protheans knew of it, and TIM knew of it as soon as we did?

[Arisugawa]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Catalyst is surrendering to Shepard, acknowleging the superiority of the Crucible, the lack of validation to its own solution, and the need to find a new one via the weapon created by organics.  Stated in the game.

I just want to caution you on this "Stated in Game," as validation for any particular argument. Characters lie or they don't have the full information to provide a completely objective perspective on something.

In Tomb Raider Underworld, there was a moment when fans got to question writer Eric Lindstrom about whether or not Jacqueline Natla actually killed Lara Croft's father. His response was essentially that's what Natla said she did, but is that what really happened?

So, when the Catalyst says the Crucible changed it and opened up new possibilities, I'm hesitant to believe it. Especially since it is perfectly free to ignore the Crucible entirely and shut it down, as evidenced when you shoot at it. This doesn't sound especially like surrender to me, since rshutting down the Crucible in anger allows it to win, which it what would have happened had the Catalyst never spoken to Shepard.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[Ageless Face]

elitehunter34 wrote...
Well one could say in Indoctrination Theory Shepard fights the Indoctrination Attempt long enough that so that Shepard can destroy the Reapers.  No more Reapers means no more means to continue Indoctrination, and Shepard could get the help he/she needs to fully undo the damage.  Not being near a Reaper might be all that's necessary to begin the process of reversing it's damage.  We don't know for sure.

All we saw until now, are indoctrinated people that couldn't succeed shake off the indoctrinaion more than a few minutes. I'll be generous and even say an hour or two. Even if Shepard will fight off the indoctrination... I don't think it'll be for a long enough time to defeat the reapers, if the fleets will even have more use of Shepard. If Shep is indoctrinated, s/he's gone for good.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:28 .

[Applepie_Svk]

HagarIshay wrote...


All we saw until now, are indoctrinated people that couldn't sucseed shake off the indoctrinaion more than a few minutes. I'll be generous and even say an hour or two. 

Rana Thanopthis was indoctrinated for 3 years, just after Reaper arrival she killed herself together with few officials...And Shiala successfuly resisted indoctrination due to Thorian´s effects on her physiology. 

[AlanC9]

Arisugawa wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...y

But with low EMS the Crucible is damaged before use.

Sure, but that's a reflection of your military strength and ability to protect it. THAT makes sense. But it doesn't affect the construction of the Crucible in the slightest, nor does ignoring the War Assets assigned to it.

Yeah. Bio should have had two or three different scores rather than one.OTOH, I can see why not. Most Crucible points come from side quests IIRC, so basing its function on those points might have screwed people who rely on MP rather than side quests for points. So either this is an actual MP-forced design compromise, or it's just Bio being lazy, full stop.

anyway, more EMS = better Crucible.

[Ageless Face]

Applepie_Svk wrote...
Rana Thanopthis was indoctrinated for 3 years, just after Reaper arrival she killed herself together with few officials...And Shiala successfuly resisted indoctrination due to Thorian´s effects on her physiology. 

Rana wasn't indoctrinated. She was in the process, if I remember correctly. She seemed fine in ME1 and 2.

And I don't think Shepard has a Thorian to help him/her get out of the indoctrination.

[guacamayus]

edit: sorry, wrong thread xD

Modifié par guacamayus, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arisugawa wrote...

I just want to caution you on this "Stated in Game," as validation for any particular argument. Characters lie or they don't have the full information to provide a completely objective perspective on something.

Only in stories in which they do, that is. It's a fair point, but needs to consider the context.

Mass Effect has never been big on character deception, and usually takes revealing those lies to absurdly blatant levels, both in foreshadowing and in recognizing the deception. Unlike Dragon Age, in which casual misdirection and subtlety are common, Mass Effect has always had a painfully honest narrative. Exposition devices, and characters, are honest until shown otherwise. Even the most deceitful character, the Illusive Man, only told a smattering of actual lies: the rest were half truths and misdirections.

The Reapers, however, have never been a group of liars in the Mass Effect franchise. That, and the narrative style of the franchise, makes 'stated in the game' far more credible than if this were another franchise.

[Bone3ater]

I support synthesis.

Pretty sure I got your hate now. If so, please write an essay about how synthesis is morally wrong and whatnot, and I will write my essay explaining why it isn't.

Oh wait, done that a hunderd times already, nevermind. Seriously, sweet baby jesus, you even believe that the ending scenes are a lie. There's healthy suspicion and then there's just conspiracy theories.

I'm abandoning the thread btw, no point in arguing anymore since The Angry One is already here.

[AngryFrozenWater]

HagarIshay wrote...

First of all: Really? Catalyst supporters?

Second of all: What makes you so sure the reapers can never be controlled? Because if wasn't possible before? TIM seemed to control reaper forces. Who thought it was possible? Yet he succeeded. Okay, yeah. Controlling the harvested is different than controlling reapers. But different doesn't make something impossible. Shepard thinking the Crucible will actually help controlling the reapers doesn't say s/he indoctrinated. It could be, how odd and funny in the story of Mass Effect, a leap of faith.

And synthesis is not even what Saren wanted. The DNA merge is not reaper's implants, at least from what I understood. They are merging between synthetic lives and organic. It was never said it was impossible, no matter how much senseless it sounds. More than that, no one will be under reaper control, if that's what bothers you.

A question to you now. All this time Anderson said he wants to destroy the repaers in ME3. How do you know he wasn't indoctrinated while he was on Earth? How do you know destroy option is nothing more than indoctrination attempt? It can be one just as much as control or synthesis.

I think you are a catalyst supporter OP.

Yes. Catalyst supporters or even better: reaper apologists. Those who defend the hypothetical threat or the solutions to that hypothetical threat by the reapers or by the brat in the ending.

One major problem is that the three platforms are part of the Citadel and are not part of the Crucible. That means that whatever option you select must have the approval of the brat. Each option is part of his agenda. Even destroy, which exterminates the geth. We see the brat disappear in thin air in control and destroy, but not in synthesis. Does it mean that the brat is dead or just gone in any of those options?

And synthesis is exactly what Saren described.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steal. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth!" - Saren Arterius.