247 réponses à ce sujet

[D24O]

How many people actually like the Catalyst?

[AngryFrozenWater]

AlanC9 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You said "I never defended it and said he was right about it." If you do not believe in that hypothetical thread then there is no reason to join their cause and select control or synthesis. After all, why should you select a solution to a non-existent problem?

Because you like the results anyway? Or prefer it to any other available option?

No doubt, but the topic is to make sense of the brat. And do not come up with bad writing and such. That kills any topic.

[AlanC9]

Well, that's simple. He's a brain-damaged AI pursuing an insane solution to a non-problem. Which doesn't make Control or Synthesis "joining the cause." They can still be the best available options, depending on how you judge things.

[Tup3x]

The space brat is still ridiculous, there's no way around that. Ec made my stomach feel better but meh... I think the brat talks boulsheit and destroy is the way to go. No need to try to understand all the crap it tries to spew on Shepard.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

HagarIshay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Control is a solution to its hypothetical problem. If you think there is no problem then there is no need to keep the infrastructure intact.

How about... Defending and advancing galactic society with reapers' help? Not helping the catalyst, having a reason to keep the reapers.

Believe me, if I wanted the reapers to do what the catalyst wanted to do, you'd think I won't know I'm his supporter?

I don't accept his problem. I don't want to find a solution to it. And that's that.

If you do not accept its problem then why keep the infrastructure of its purpose built genocide machines intact? If you do not accept his problem then why condone its actions by becoming the next undead reaper dictator?

Assuming you saved the geth somehow...

Shepard: There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.

Shown during those words is a slide of reapers and geth. So, you do not accept the brat's problem, but you do enslave the geth, as they too fall under your control. What did the geth do to deserve that?

HagarIshay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Synthesis is supposed to be a solution for that same hypothetical problem. Somehow that has to be achieved. Giving anyone green eyes only doesn't feel like a solid solution. And thus there must be something else that creates that utopia-like world. And synthesis has a lot of implications. If you care to explore these, a lot of things do not add up.

And if someone didn't pick synthesis because he wanted to help the reapers? What if someone picked synthesis because of the advancemts to both synthetics and organics?

There is peace between synthetics and organics. Just like there is peace between all organics. Does it mean there IS actually peace? Of course not! It's more of co-existence. There can never be utopia. And no, people aren't brainwashed in sythesis, from reasons I said a post before.

Synthesis is not required to achieve peace between the geth and the quarians. The advantages of such a superior race are and forcing them to join is an elitist decision and only the brat and Saren were in its favor. The geth explicitly stated that they want to find their own goals and the road to it was as important as the result. Your allies have stated that they wanted to destroy or defeat the reapers and none have stated that they wanted to join them. It would be betrayal to sell them like that. There is no opt-in and there is no-opt out (other than death). It is yet another violation of the right of self-determination in a long line of violations to which Shepard is supposed to make an end to.

Like I posted before: If there is no utopia with mind control then synthesis shouldn't behave like one. And that too was founded, but ignored.

HagarIshay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You said "I never defended it and said he was right about it." If you do not believe in that hypothetical thread then there is no reason to join their cause and select control or synthesis. After all, why should you select a solution to a non-existent problem?

For crying out loud...

You can look at all the three choices as "believing the hypocrytical problem".

Synthesis is merging synthetics and organics and stopping conflicts.
Control is keeping the reapers. Just in case something goes wrong.
And destroy will destroy all synthetic lives.

So you see, destroy will also help the catalyst's cause.

Do you believe the catalyst's logic? Are you a catalyst supporter?

You finally got the idea. All the brat's options are solutions to a non-existent problem. Even the refuse option, which is supposed to delay the selection of one of the three main options to the next cycle, is one.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:13 .

[Ageless Face]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you do not accept its problem then why keep the infrastructure of its purpose built genocide machines intact? If you do not accept his problem then why condone its actions by becoming the next undead reaper dictator?

Assuming you saved the geth somehow...

Shepard: There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.

Shown during those words is a slide of reapers and geth. So, you do not accept the brat's problem, but you do enslave the geth, as they too fall under your control. What did the geth do to deserve that?

 

Are we still talking about the choice control here? In the Mass Effect 3 ending?

It's a baseless assumption. From the hell where did you get the idea the Geth will be controlled? And what the hell does that have to do with "catalyst support"?

You finally got the idea. All the brat's options are solutions to a non-existent problem. Even the refuse option, which is supposed to delay the selection of one of the three main options to the next cycle, is one.

So everyone support the catalyst then.

My point was, that even if all the options are in some way helping the catalyst's cause, the reasons for picking each choice can be entirely different than what the catalyst's.

[The Twilight God]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No, only one two require a leap of faith. Destroy does not require Shepard to commit suicide. Fact.

Incorrect. You have no more assurance that destroy will do what it's supposed to do than you do either of the other two options. Whether or not Shepard dies is irrelevant. He's a soldier, he's trained to die for the greater good if need be.

Yes, you do. You have multiple cycles of people who constructed it for that very purpose. It's why you came there in the first place. To doubt destroy now contradicts the entire plot. And if Destory didn't work Shepard is still alive to seek another way. He doesn't cash in all his chips on one foolish leap of faith while a more likely course of action without foolish risk is available. But go ahead and keep ignoring facts because you like control/synthesis but can't handle the implications of such a choice. 

Control and Synthesis are pulled out of the Catalyst's rear end 5 seconds after the Crucible docks (but yet the console was already built in advance). Please don't try to compare them to Destroy (what you were going to do since the Mars mission and what the entire plot revovles around you ultimately doing). And yes, I notice you're avoiding my points. Willfull ignorance can't save you.

[The Twilight God]

HagarIshay wrote...

From the hell where did you get the idea the Geth will be controlled?

If the Crucible targets all synthetics in Destroy, why wouldn't it target all synthetics in Control? It's a valid assumption.

Not syaing that's what happens, but it makes sense to me.

[D24O]

The Twilight God wrote...


If the Crucible targets all synthetics in Destroy, why wouldn't it target all synthetics in Control? It's a valid assumption.

Not syaing that's what happens, but it makes sense to me.

But if it only targets synthetics in destroy, why can it target molecules in synthesis?

[The Twilight God]

D24O wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...


If the Crucible targets all synthetics in Destroy, why wouldn't it target all synthetics in Control? It's a valid assumption.

Not syaing that's what happens, but it makes sense to me.

But if it only targets synthetics in destroy, why can it target molecules in synthesis?

Because, Synthesis is.... MAGIC

[AngryFrozenWater]

HagarIshay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you do not accept its problem then why keep the infrastructure of its purpose built genocide machines intact? If you do not accept his problem then why condone its actions by becoming the next undead reaper dictator?

Assuming you saved the geth somehow...

Shepard: There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.

Shown during those words is a slide of reapers and geth. So, you do not accept the brat's problem, but you do enslave the geth, as they too fall under your control. What did the geth do to deserve that?

Are we still talking about the choice control here? In the Mass Effect 3 ending?

It's a baseless assumption. From the hell where did you get the idea the Geth will be controlled? And what the hell does that have to do with "catalyst support"?

During that slide the talking is done by the new brat in control, the now dead Shepard. The geth and the reapers are implied to be the former enemies in that slide. Obviously you are free to have your own interpretation. If we cannot interpret what is shown to us then the EC is even more of a waste, don't you think so?

HagarIshay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You finally got the idea. All the brat's options are solutions to a non-existent problem. Even the refuse option, which is supposed to delay the selection of one of the three main options to the next cycle, is one.

So everyone support the catalyst then.

My point was, that even if all the options are in some way helping the catalyst's cause, the reasons for picking each choice can be entirely different than what the catalyst's.

You can have your own head canon, but the brat's previous solution does not work and it offers you a choice of three new ones. So yes, everyone is forced to select one of its solutions to a non-existent problem.

[Geneaux486]

Yes, you do. You have multiple cycles of people who constructed it for that very purpose.

It was constructed for three purposes, as the game clearly shows us. All three have the same risk of not working out. That is the way the story is presented to us.

[elitehunter34]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Yes, you do. You have multiple cycles of people who constructed it for that very purpose.

It was constructed for three purposes, as the game clearly shows us. All three have the same risk of not working out. That is the way the story is presented to us.

No, because all three options are built into the Citadel.  We can see this when the platforms are raised.  Why the Crucible is designed to interface with these three options is absolutely beyond me.  It doesn't make sense why a device that was supposed to destroy the Reapers can suddenly give you control of the Reapers or do whatever the hell Synthesis does.

[The Twilight God]

Geneaux486 wrote...

It was constructed for three purposes, as the game clearly shows us.

No, it wasn't. The Catalyst pulls these out of his butt at the very end. We have no prior knowledge of these capabilities. Now you are just blatantly lying.

Geneaux486 wrote...

All three have the same risk of not working out. That is the way the story is presented to us.

Stop trolling. We've already been over this and you've already been proven wrong. I'm not going to keep talking to a brick wall. The End.

[dreman9999]

1. Reaper are machines doing there program. If your the AI writing their programming you can control them. This issue is who is going to control you.

2.Synthesis works because it satisfies their programming. The issue your missing is what they want to do. It's not reaping, it's bring peace with organics and synthetic. The reapers solution was the best they can do. Now that they have a new solution they will stop reaping.

The question you have to ask your self is if the reaper did this with the intention of harm. They didn't, they were just doing what they are programmed to do. They and the catalyst are slaves to their programming.

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

It was constructed for three purposes, as the game clearly shows us.

No, it wasn't. The Catalyst pulls these out of his butt at the very end. We have no prior knowledge of these capabilities. Now you are just blatantly lying.

Geneaux486 wrote...

All three have the same risk of not working out. That is the way the story is presented to us.

Stop trolling. We've already been over this and you've already been proven wrong. I'm not going to keep talking to a brick wall. The End.

1. Control and destroy was talked about way before the end of ME3. Added he has no control over what destroy and control does. The ones that did were the past cycles. You onl;y have control over how well it does those options.
Only synthesisthe catalyst has control over.

2.Control and destroy clear can lead to future failure.Synthesis  would not

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

From the hell where did you get the idea the Geth will be controlled?

If the Crucible targets all synthetics in Destroy, why wouldn't it target all synthetics in Control? It's a valid assumption.

Not syaing that's what happens, but it makes sense to me.

Because you clearly told that control is a rewrite of the catalyst programing. Your told your replacing the catalyst.

[Taboo]

Absolutely nothing Geneaux has said is untrue...

Nothing.

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Absolutely nothing Geneaux has said is untrue...

Nothing.

He clear doesn't understand how cotrol works.

[MegaSovereign]

Stop trolling. We've already been over this and you've already been proven wrong. I'm not going to keep talking to a brick wall. The End.

Bill O' Reilly is that you!?

[Jayleia]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Control and destroy was talked about way before the end of ME3. Added he has no control over what destroy and control does. The ones that did were the past cycles. You onl;y have control over how well it does those options.
Only synthesisthe catalyst has control over.

2.Control and destroy clear can lead to future failure.Synthesis  would not

I maintain, and will continue to maintain that the only way you could guarantee that synthesis WOULD NOT lead to failure would be complete mental control over all synthetics and organics capable of actual thought.  You can help the two sides get together (sides?  all the synthetics are on MY side!)...anyway, but you have to WANT to see the other side.

We have people killing each other all over the planet over translations of what someone said a guy may or may not have done 2000 years ago in the middle east.  Do you think that just giving everyone green eyes will give us enough understanding of each other that its peace forever?  They have the tools to understand each other and come to a respectful compromise...but they don't WANT to do that.

The only way that peace will be attainable would be by mind control, because people can hold unreasonable hatreds for a hell of a long time, even when its clearly harmful to yourself.

[dreman9999]

Jayleia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Control and destroy was talked about way before the end of ME3. Added he has no control over what destroy and control does. The ones that did were the past cycles. You onl;y have control over how well it does those options.
Only synthesisthe catalyst has control over.

2.Control and destroy clear can lead to future failure.Synthesis  would not

I maintain, and will continue to maintain that the only way you could guarantee that synthesis WOULD NOT lead to failure would be complete mental control over all synthetics and organics capable of actual thought.  You can help the two sides get together (sides?  all the synthetics are on MY side!)...anyway, but you have to WANT to see the other side.

We have people killing each other all over the planet over translations of what someone said a guy may or may not have done 2000 years ago in the middle east.  Do you think that just giving everyone green eyes will give us enough understanding of each other that its peace forever?  They have the tools to understand each other and come to a respectful compromise...but they don't WANT to do that.

The only way that peace will be attainable would be by mind control, because people can hold unreasonable hatreds for a hell of a long time, even when its clearly harmful to yourself.

Exactly. Synthesis is indoctrination. It'sjust now the reapers are not turning beings into reapers.

[SubAstris]

Jayleia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Control and destroy was talked about way before the end of ME3. Added he has no control over what destroy and control does. The ones that did were the past cycles. You onl;y have control over how well it does those options.
Only synthesisthe catalyst has control over.

2.Control and destroy clear can lead to future failure.Synthesis  would not

I maintain, and will continue to maintain that the only way you could guarantee that synthesis WOULD NOT lead to failure would be complete mental control over all synthetics and organics capable of actual thought.  You can help the two sides get together (sides?  all the synthetics are on MY side!)...anyway, but you have to WANT to see the other side.

We have people killing each other all over the planet over translations of what someone said a guy may or may not have done 2000 years ago in the middle east.  Do you think that just giving everyone green eyes will give us enough understanding of each other that its peace forever?  They have the tools to understand each other and come to a respectful compromise...but they don't WANT to do that.

The only way that peace will be attainable would be by mind control, because people can hold unreasonable hatreds for a hell of a long time, even when its clearly harmful to yourself.

It's a game, it's BW's story, they can do what the hell they want with it but there's no indication that it would led to mass killing.

[AngryFrozenWater]

SubAstris wrote...

Jayleia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Control and destroy was talked about way before the end of ME3. Added he has no control over what destroy and control does. The ones that did were the past cycles. You onl;y have control over how well it does those options.
Only synthesisthe catalyst has control over.

2.Control and destroy clear can lead to future failure.Synthesis would not

I maintain, and will continue to maintain that the only way you could guarantee that synthesis WOULD NOT lead to failure would be complete mental control over all synthetics and organics capable of actual thought. You can help the two sides get together (sides? all the synthetics are on MY side!)...anyway, but you have to WANT to see the other side.

We have people killing each other all over the planet over translations of what someone said a guy may or may not have done 2000 years ago in the middle east. Do you think that just giving everyone green eyes will give us enough understanding of each other that its peace forever? They have the tools to understand each other and come to a respectful compromise...but they don't WANT to do that.

The only way that peace will be attainable would be by mind control, because people can hold unreasonable hatreds for a hell of a long time, even when its clearly harmful to yourself.

It's a game, it's BW's story, they can do what the hell they want with it but there's no indication that it would led to mass killing.

Nah. I think Jayleia makes some excellent points there. The naive elitist view to transform everyone into a superior race without their consent is the problem here. Mind control is definitely implied in that solution for the hypothetical threat. The reapers were responsible for a gazillion atrocities. In Shepard's cycle there were significant losses. For most that is not an abstract number. Entire planets have been wiped out and survivors have often lost large parts of their community, family and friends. One simply doesn't accept the reapers as their saviors once they suddenly become docile. If synthesis is not a utopia with mind control then it shouldn't behave like one.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:00 .

[Applepie_Svk]

SubAstris wrote...

It's a game, it's BW's story, they can do what the hell they want with it but there's no indication that it would led to mass killing.

And BioWare´s  answer was : It´s everyone´s personal intepretation - and yes Indoctrination is still capable interpretation of what happened in the end of ME3, gratulation Sir - YO WON THE INTERNETZ!

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:16 .