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Would you cure the genophage?


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#1
elegolas1

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Imagine you live in the mass effect universe and you are given the choice to cure the genophage. Would you do it?

I would not. The genophage allows for a sustainable Krogan population. Cure the genophage and the Krogan population would grow to epidemic numbers. To explain my reasoning I will give the analogy of an alien species introduced into a habitat with the example of the canetoad which was introduced into queensland in Australia. Like the Krogan were uplifted by the salarians to fight the rachni, the canetoad was introduced to australia to kill off crop eating
pests. The canetoads had no natural predators to balance out thier high birthrate and so their population exploded to epidemic proportions. With no canetoad equivalent of the genophage, the canetoads continue to
spread across Australia. The Krogan also had no natual predators etc, so the genophage was introduced, an artificial environmental factor, to prevent such an epidemic as seen with the canetoads.


For those of you who argue that with Wrex and Eve, they would cure the genophage, I give you Dean the Young

In the words of Dean the Young:

Wrex's political structure in ME2, while admirable, was dependent on the genophage. Krogan didn't obey Wrex because they liked him or his ideas: Krogan followed Wrex because he gave best access to the scarce resource of breeding. Wrex controlled access to females, females were incredibly important, and Wrex was able to leverage that importance into policy. Not everyone liked it, but they didn't need to: the genophage held their future hostage to Wrex's influence. Over time, perhapse they would internalize a few years of reform.

Curing the genophage destroys that entire system.

First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.

Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.

Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.

Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.

Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was  needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.



The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.



In answering this question, please do not use metagaming as an arguement. Eg "in the extended cut curing the genophage worked so yeah i would cure it."

Modifié par elegolas1, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .


#2
Guest_Flog61_*

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I'd be too busy poking the hanar to see what they feel like

#3
Snook

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Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."

Although, I'd have a few second thoughts if Eve was dead and Wreav was in charge.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .


#4
Joccaren

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Yes, I would cure it.
Wrex in charge, Bakara by his side, and the Krogan will have a bright future - I know I can trust the two of them. Forcing the slow genocide of an entire species on the idea that they might rebel is a seriously ****ty thing to do IMO.

#5
elegolas1

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SergeantSnookie wrote...

Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."


I generally agree with this statement (hence my oposition to synthesis) but in this case, I don't.

I will give the analogy of an alien species introduced into a habitat with the example of the canetoad which was introduced into queensland in australia. Like the Krogan were uplifted by the salarians to fight the rachni, the canetoad was introduced to australia to kill off crop eating pests. The canetoads had no natural predators to balance out thier high birthrate and so their population exploded to epidemic proportions. With no canetoad equivalent of the genophage, the canetoads continue to spread across australia. The Krogan also had no natual predators etc, so the genophage was introduced, an artificial environmental factor, to prevent such an epidemic as seen with the canetoads.

In the case of the canetoads and of the krogan, unnatual intervention of humans and salarians respectively removed evolution from the equation. Evolution works over periods of hundreds of thousands of years. Within a few hundred, the Krogan population will be epidemic. Political intervention is necessary for the survival of the other species.

#6
elegolas1

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Joccaren wrote...

Yes, I would cure it.
Wrex in charge, Bakara by his side, and the Krogan will have a bright future - I know I can trust the two of them. Forcing the slow genocide of an entire species on the idea that they might rebel is a seriously ****ty thing to do IMO.


it isn't the rebellion, but the population that is the problem though. The genophage regulates the population, not the Krogans tendancy towards violence

#7
elegolas1

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Flog61 wrote...

I'd be too busy poking the hanar to see what they feel like


your point is noted

#8
Harbinger of your Destiny

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Cure it totally?

No,

Adjust it so that the krogan don't have a population explosion? yes

Simply put the krogan's tendency to over-breed is a very real problem

#9
warriorN7

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I'd sooner fight any race in a long bloody war than kill them before there born. Benefit of the dought and all that.Just because some Krogan tried to to take over the galaxy a few thousand years ago shouldn't condemn the whole race forever. Besides there were certain circumstances that lead to the Kogan rebellions they weren't ready to join a galactic community but over time I believe they have become more stable and more integrated with galactic society. Not saying there wouldn't be those Krogan who would try again there would be fighting but better to beat them in a war the than kill there unborn children for centuries to come. The Germans started 2 world wars if the allies had a genophange type weapon and used it based on Germany's passed transgression would you subject them to that to this day? I would hope not.

#10
HamburgerTime

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I wouldn't cure it. At least not until the Krogan proved beforehand that they were ready for a cure. Using the Reapers as leverage to get a cure is already a bad start to actually deserving one. Swiftly giving the cure to such an aggressive and fast-breeding species is a bad idea, they should completely demilitarize,change their war-like culture, and institute breeding limits before being considered for a cure.

#11
Myrmedus

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No, I wouldn't - logically, it makes no sense.

The Krogan's birth rate was naturally balanced around their high death rate due to the conditions on Tuchunka. When they were given advanced technology that death rate plummeted but, as is typical of evolution, it will take awhile for the birth rate to go down to compensate and rebalance.

Having said that, I may have opted for changing it in some way in the future. Perhaps modifying it so the stillbirth rate is decreased but it has an effect on sexual hormone production etc.? Basically, some way of reducing the fertility and breeding drive of the race rather than simply killing 999 of every 1000 feti.

#12
Edorian27

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No, I wouldn't. Never. Shepards and mine approach would be the safeguard of humanity at all costs. Could the Krogan be a threat?

"Krogan population growing has always led to war. Always." (Mordin Solus).

Wrex and Eve won't live forever and the Salarian embassador sums up the consequences in her mail quite accuratly.

#13
Dean_the_Young

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SergeantSnookie wrote...

Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."

Although, I'd have a few second thoughts if Eve was dead and Wreav was in charge.

Strictly speaking, politics is an aspect of evolution.

#14
elegolas1

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Myrmedus wrote...

Having said that, I may have opted for changing it in some way in the future. Perhaps modifying it so the stillbirth rate is decreased but it has an effect on sexual hormone production etc.? Basically, some way of reducing the fertility and breeding drive of the race rather than simply killing 999 of every 1000 feti.


why is that?

#15
elegolas1

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."

Although, I'd have a few second thoughts if Eve was dead and Wreav was in charge.

Strictly speaking, politics is an aspect of evolution.


good point
If by strictly you mean accurately.. Evolution is so misunderstood.

#16
BEEF7347

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Look at ourselves we overpopulate this planet and fight over anything, would you want to cure us if we were infected like the krogan

#17
nhsknudsen

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Absolutely

#18
Snook

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."

Although, I'd have a few second thoughts if Eve was dead and Wreav was in charge.

Strictly speaking, politics is an aspect of evolution.


True enough.

#19
elegolas1

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BEEF7347 wrote...

Look at ourselves we overpopulate this planet and fight over anything, would you want to cure us if we were infected like the krogan


In the past the krogan were unable to regulate thier population. That is why the genophage was introduced.
In real life, we are trying to control our population. Most of the population growth is coming from developing countries. A good example of this is China. Over the 20th century China developed from a 3rd world country to what it is today. During that transition, its population grew into the largest in the world. Now as an (economically and somewhat scientifically) 1st world country, it has introduced the one child policy to regulate population. It might not work out that way for other countries, but it can be done.

Is it perhaps the method, rather than the goal of the genophage which you take issue with?

#20
elegolas1

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nhsknudsen wrote...

Absolutely


How come? What of the consequences?

#21
HamburgerTime

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BEEF7347 wrote...

Look at ourselves we overpopulate this planet and fight over anything, would you want to cure us if we were infected like the krogan


We haven't reached the global nuclear war state yet, and we haven't gotten so populous that we have to move on to other planets yet. In fact, in most developed nations, militarism is declining and population growth is slowing down.The Krogan have a cultural and societal atmosphere that encourages war and birth. Suddenly curing the genophage wouldn't necessarily remove the excessive birth encouragement either. Part of that probably comes from the fact that almost all Krogan offspring are stillborn, so they originally felt they would have to attempt much reproduction to get positive results. Since this is a built in cultural thing now though, the attempts would most likely continue even if the genophage was cured, leading to immediate unprecedented population growth as nothing would slow down their successful births but their attempts remained the same.

#22
Dean_the_Young

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elegolas1 wrote...

BEEF7347 wrote...

Look at ourselves we overpopulate this planet and fight over anything, would you want to cure us if we were infected like the krogan


In the past the krogan were unable to regulate thier population. That is why the genophage was introduced.
In real life, we are trying to control our population. Most of the population growth is coming from developing countries. A good example of this is China. Over the 20th century China developed from a 3rd world country to what it is today. During that transition, its population grew into the largest in the world. Now as an (economically and somewhat scientifically) 1st world country, it has introduced the one child policy to regulate population. It might not work out that way for other countries, but it can be done.

Is it perhaps the method, rather than the goal of the genophage which you take issue with?

That's not a bad argument, but a better point might be that we aren't overpopulating the planet right now, and are in fact heading for a population downturn. Most of Eurasia is getting old and heading towards a demographic decline, while the hot-spots of population growth are in regions in which either (a) increased standards of living will moderate the population growth, or (B) the lack of standards of living curb population survival.

As for resources, all resources are finite but we're nowhere near towards tapping out the ones we do have.

#23
Dean_the_Young

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Joccaren wrote...

Yes, I would cure it.
Wrex in charge, Bakara by his side, and the Krogan will have a bright future - I know I can trust the two of them.

Why?

While Wrex unifies the Krogan momentarily on the basis of 'hey, I'm awesome, I cured the genophge and we're at war', that's not a recipe for permanent unification: that's a momentary stimulus. Gratitude only goes so far, until the Krogan culture likewise applies to the divisions. What basis will Wrex still be in charge of all Krogan?


Wrex's political structure in ME2, while admirable, was dependent on the genophage. Krogan didn't obey Wrex because they liked him or his ideas: Krogan followed Wrex because he gave best access to the scarce resource of breeding. Wrex controlled access to females, females were incredibly important, and Wrex was able to leverage that importance into policy. Not everyone liked it, but they didn't need to: the genophage held their future hostage to Wrex's influence. Over time, perhapse they would internalize a few years of reform.

Curing the genophage destroys that entire system.

First, a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.

Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.

Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.

Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.

Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.



The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

#24
DRTJR

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Yes, It was a mistake to modify the Genophage to return to the 1 in a 1000 numbers, the Krogan are ready to accept the burdens of a space faring species.

#25
MstrJedi Kyle

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With Wrex and Eve in charge, yes. With Wrex and Eve dead, no.