340 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

I'll try it that way.


THE KROGAN ARE DEMILITARIZED. YOU CAN'T INVADE WORLDS WITHOUT WARSHIPS.

Modifié par Argolas, 22 avril 2013 - 12:43 .

[Khelish]

With Wrex and Eve? Yes, I would.

[Spartas Husky]

Give them back the worlds their ancestors destroyer through overpopulation. That way the new generation will focus on building, caring and surviving. Survival being only one piece of the puzzle rather than everything as it was.


I always wished they had the option if you explored the former krogan empire planets.
Wrex:
"I wont let my children rot in this cesspit"
Mordin:
"krogan expansion led to krogan rebellions... hope this time it turns better"
Wrex:
"the council can't expect us to sit around forever"

Shepard:
"Why not ask for the worlds your ancestors formerly had, you get planets that would not sustain a population explosion and you get to ease the tensions on the galaxy, proving you are as much fighters are your are builders"

[Xilizhra]

Shepard:
"Why not ask for the worlds your ancestors formerly had, you get planets that would not sustain a population explosion and you get to ease the tensions on the galaxy, proving you are as much fighters are your are builders"

Because almost all of their other worlds were stolen.

[Epic777]

If your not going to give the Krogan a chance why not go all the way to commit full genocide? Since its the belief they can never change.

[Khelish]

Epic777 wrote...

If your not going to give the Krogan a chance why not go all the way to commit full genocide? Since its the belief they can never change.

That's like asking "If you are going to sentence someone to life in prison, why not kill them?" 

[Spartas Husky]

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard:
"Why not ask for the worlds your ancestors formerly had, you get planets that would not sustain a population explosion and you get to ease the tensions on the galaxy, proving you are as much fighters are your are builders"

Because almost all of their other worlds were stolen.

I'm talking about the ones granted after the Rachni wars of course... damn can't be that dense.

[radishson]

Bardox9 wrote...

The Genophage isn't killing them, their own violent nature is killing them. Sad to say, but Wreav is the common Krogan. More interested in picking fights than strengthening the species, which the plan Wrex and Bakara have will easily do. But once they are dead that plan will die with them. Then history repeats... The krogan are hailed as heroes, they get a few planets to colonise for all that they did in the war. Soon those worlds are overcrowded and running out of resources. The krogan spead out to forcibly claim other already inhabited worlds. There will always be "just one more world" needed. Let the new Krogan rebellion begin

As a player I preffer to cure the Genophage for my good buddy Wrex and Grunt who is just cuddle bear... with a shotgun. But if I lived in the ME universe... Look, the Genophage stabilized their population growth. Their numbers are dropping because they are, for lack of a better word, depressed. Lying about the cure might be the best thing there. Just tell them it will take a generation or two for the full effects to kick in. Krogan no longer focus on  how doomed they are and focus on rebuild Tuchanka, as a result fewer Krogan leave the homeworld to die in pointless merc battles and their populations slowly begins to rise. HOORAY!... CURE!

Agreed, especially with the bolded.  People seem so hopeful for the future of the krogan just because Wrex and Eve are in charge, but they are both very old and conflict strongly with the average krogan's opinion.  Look back at Grunt's whole ME2 loyalty mission.  It directly proved that unrestricted aggression and a thirst for confrontation are biologically inate within the krogan and a source of pride for them.  It may be natural for them, and in principle theres nothing wrong with it, but that sort of behaviour is dangerous for the rest of the galaxy.  The krogan cannot control their emotions effectively or employ rationality when dealing with problems - couple that with their incredible strength and combat skills, and you are asking for a problem.
You do not create a revolution within an entire species on the back of a single politician.  Long-term, Wrex and Eve are totally irelevant.  They can't change the biology of their species.

And yes, the genophage didn't actually kill any of them - only restricted their population to a manageable size in light of their new place in the galactic community.  Obviously this was very demoralizing for the culture, but I'd rather the rest of the species of the galaxy live in security.

Modifié par radishson, 22 avril 2013 - 01:50 .

[radishson]

Khelish wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

If your not going to give the Krogan a chance why not go all the way to commit full genocide? Since its the belief they can never change.

That's like asking "If you are going to sentence someone to life in prison, why not kill them?" 

Exactly.  The genophage stabilized the population, that's it.  There is a huge difference between outright genocide and making an aggressive species more manageable.

[Xilizhra]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard:
"Why not ask for the worlds your ancestors formerly had, you get planets that would not sustain a population explosion and you get to ease the tensions on the galaxy, proving you are as much fighters are your are builders"

Because almost all of their other worlds were stolen.

I'm talking about the ones granted after the Rachni wars of course... damn can't be that dense.

I believe those have been recolonized by other racces. In any case, I suspect that the krogan forfeited those rewards with the Rebellions.

[Spartas Husky]

Xilizhra wrote...

I believe those have been recolonized by other racces.

"I believe" it would take you a minute or two to find out if those planets were actually reclaimed


Hence why I was saying... the new rewards for aiding a council homeworld could be those planets... if they weren't reclaimed. Until you find out through a minute long search I can't exactly debate against what "you believe".

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 22 avril 2013 - 02:15 .

[remydat]

Silver,

1.  Krogan stillborn children took no path.  I have no problem punishing the actual Krogan that committed actual crimes.  You lose me where billions of children are born stillborn for crimes committed thousands of years ago.  The Geth Heretics are the actually people that committed the actual crime.  Stillborn babies never killed anyone.

3. It is wordplay.  It is the First Contact War.

4. What does that have to do with anything.  They uplifted people they knew were not ready for it period.  I am sure the Asari and Salarians are smart enough to know what they were doing.  And no they did not underestimate them.  They flat out knew.  They simply did not care because they wanted to save themselves and used the Krogan as canon fodder to do it.

5.  If it affects every other race in a negative way then you deal with it when that day comes.  Pre-emptively deciding to deal with it is precisely the logic of the Calalyst.  There is no contradiction.  The Geth Heretics, The Quarians and whoever else are ADULTS.  They can be judged on what they do. 

[Xilizhra]

3. It is wordplay. It is the First Contact War.

Human standards aren't the only standards in the galaxy.

4. What does that have to do with anything. They uplifted people they knew were not ready for it period. I am sure the Asari and Salarians are smart enough to know what they were doing. And no they did not underestimate them. They flat out knew. They simply did not care because they wanted to save themselves and used the Krogan as canon fodder to do it.

The krogan would have been doomed anyway if the rachni had won. Hell, they were dying out to begin with.

5. If it affects every other race in a negative way then you deal with it when that day comes. Pre-emptively deciding to deal with it is precisely the logic of the Calalyst. There is no contradiction. The Geth Heretics, The Quarians and whoever else are ADULTS. They can be judged on what they do.

They also possess consciousness, unlike krogan fetuses/eggs. The only issue here with the genophage is the psychological damage it'd inflict on adults. However, that aside, how do you propose that Wrex and Eve stay in power?

[remydat]

Xilizhra

I don't care about human standards.  When a military of a nation or species attacks another with the idea to conquer them as can be seen from the Citadel Archives, it is war.  Trying to play semantics is irrelevant.  

Whether they would have been doomed is conjecture.  I might as well believe the Catalyst is right if we are going to assume that because the Salarians or Asari say something it must be right.

Not sure your point.  Can I go around punching pregnant women in the stomach to cause miscarriages and say hey those fetuses are not conscious yet so it's cool?  And do you mean Wrex, Eve and all the Krogan females who Eve asserts will not allow their kids to go off to be slaughtered again?  I assume you are female so do you think females have no say in their lives or future?  Krogan females are just as strong as the Krogan men as far as I can tell so why are we judging all of Krogan society on stupid men as if the females Eve talk about have no say?

[remydat]

radishson wrote...

Exactly.  The genophage stabilized the population, that's it.  There is a huge difference between outright genocide and making an aggressive species more manageable.

By subjecting them to billions of stillbirths and pretending like that will have no psychological impact.  The Krogan are aggressive in large part because of their environment.  Tuchanka is a harsh place and they evolved to have a lot of kids because few survived.  They made stupid decisions and your solution is to exacerbate their aggressive nature by inflicting on them the psychological horror of billions of stillbirths.  The supposedly more civilized races basically replace Tuchanka as the means by which Krogan babies are slaughtered and condition the Krogan to continue to be aggressive.  The difference is Tuchanka is not sentient and has no choice.  The Council does.

[Xilizhra]

I don't care about human standards. When a military of a nation or species attacks another with the idea to conquer them as can be seen from the Citadel Archives, it is war. Trying to play semantics is irrelevant.

I must again refer to human standards.

Whether they would have been doomed is conjecture. I might as well believe the Catalyst is right if we are going to assume that because the Salarians or Asari say something it must be right.

But do you have any counterevidence?

Not sure your point. Can I go around punching pregnant women in the stomach to cause miscarriages and say hey those fetuses are not conscious yet so it's cool? And do you mean Wrex, Eve and all the Krogan females who Eve asserts will not allow their kids to go off to be slaughtered again? I assume you are female so do you think females have no say in their lives or future? Krogan females are just as strong as the Krogan men as far as I can tell so why are we judging all of Krogan society on stupid men as if the females Eve talk about have no say?

In the first case, that's certainly rather grievous assault. In the second place, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stupid men have most of the guns.

[remydat]

Xilizhra,

And I must tell you it has nothing to do with human standards.  If a species is attacked by another species with the aim to conquer then it is an act of war.  The only people that do not think so are the attackers because who just so happen to have a vested interest in pretending it is not war.  

I see Eve and Wrex working with Turians and Salarians.  If that is not counter-evidence then again, we might as well accept what the Calayst says about the harvest and accept our death.

So you don't think using biological warfare that results in billions of stillborn babies is grievous assault?  Did I miss where biological and chemical weapons are accepted means to engage in war on sentient organic species?  And who says they have more guns.  Even if they do, the females have guns too and more importantly they need to actually live in order to have children.  If the females rebell, do you think the men will kill them all even if they could when doing so dooms their race.  Again, do women not have the right to decide their own future and not be condemned because of their stupid mean?

[Xilizhra]

And I must tell you it has nothing to do with human standards. If a species is attacked by another species with the aim to conquer then it is an act of war. The only people that do not think so are the attackers because who just so happen to have a vested interest in pretending it is not war.

It's not "pretending" for the turians, they just genuinely don't consider that kind of thing a full-fledged war. And we never get an asari or salarian opinion on the matter at all.

I see Eve and Wrex working with Turians and Salarians. If that is not counter-evidence then again, we might as well accept what the Calayst says about the harvest and accept our death.

I was referring to the krogan dying out.

So you don't think using biological warfare that results in billions of stillborn babies is grievous assault? Did I miss where biological and chemical weapons are accepted means to engage in war on sentient organic species? And who says they have more guns. Even if they do, the females have guns too and more importantly they need to actually live in order to have children. If the females rebell, do you think the men will kill them all even if they could when doing so dooms their race. Again, do women not have the right to decide their own future and not be condemned because of their stupid mean?

It was a necessity then. Now, there are more important things to worry about, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider the risks.
Also, remember that I do, in fact, cure the genophage, in part for these reasons, also because the Reapers are simply a bigger threat right now. However, ignoring the risks involved is foolishness. I don't think the krogan will necessarily try to conquer the galaxy again... although I do wonder why you think that every last female would oppose such an action.

[remydat]

Xilizhra
 
So is it a mini fledged war?  I am not asking you about what the Turians, humans, Asari or Salarians think.  I am asking you a simple question.  When one nation attacks another with the intent to conquer them, is that an act of war.  We are not talking about biased opinions of the peole involved.  I am asking your objective opinion on what is war.  I am not saying it is war because the humans in the game said it.  I am saying it is war because that it facts the objective definition of war.

What of the Krogan dying out?

No it was not a necessity then.  If it was a necessity the Salarians and the other Turian there would not have question whether it should be deployed.  You could have tried using it as a deterrent like the Salarians intended.  And no one says we should not consider the risks.  I understand and accept the risks.  I am telling you why I still think it should be cured.  And yes I know you chose the Genophage but you are still debating for it so I am obliged to continue debating against it.

And I don't know if every last female will oppose it.  Just like I don't know that every last male want's to go to war.  I know what Eve and Wrex tell me and I prefer to let them decide their own fate like any other species gets to.  If they become a problem then I will deal with it when they do.

[Xilizhra]

So is it a mini fledged war? I am not asking you about what the Turians, humans, Asari or Salarians think. I am asking you a simple question. When one nation attacks another with the intent to conquer them, is that an act of war. We are not talking about biased opinions of the peole involved. I am asking your objective opinion on what is war. I am not saying it is war because the humans in the game said it. I am saying it is war because that it facts the objective definition of war.

Police action.

No it was not a necessity then. If it was a necessity the Salarians and the other Turian there would not have question whether it should be deployed. You could have tried using it as a deterrent like the Salarians intended. And no one says we should not consider the risks. I understand and accept the risks. I am telling you why I still think it should be cured. And yes I know you chose the Genophage but you are still debating for it so I am obliged to continue debating against it.

There was debate on using it as a deterrent, yes, but the existence and use of the genophage in some manner was vital. And, quite frankly, I agree with the turians (and Mordin) in that using it as a deterrent wouldn't have worked.
Fortunately, this is all moot for me, as they'll never be able to stop the Reapers if it comes down to that.

[remydat]

Xilizhra

Umm, no.  Police and Military are different.  The Turians attacked with their military.  Further the Turians have no jurisdiction over humans who didn't even know they existed.  It was an act of war.

And you are free to believe it would not have worked.  The issue is they didn't even try first so we will never know if it would have worked or not.

Modifié par remydat, 22 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Bardox9]

Even if you gave the Krogan every planet that was too toxic of any other race to colonize, they (with a cure) will be overcrowded ,running out of resources, and in need of "Just one more world" in 2 or 3 generations. Their natural birth rate is untenable.

Modifié par Bardox9, 22 avril 2013 - 06:19 .

[remydat]

Bardox

Or when you stop treating them like animals the females like females in our culture may decide they don't want to just be a birthing factory. For some reason human women onky have like 1 or 2 kids despite being able to have 30-40. Why is that? Because most women don't like living with their legs perpetually open. They had a lot of children in the past because the conditions on Tuchanka forced them to. Just like there was a time in our history where our women spit out as many kids as they could because a lot of them died. Then we used technology to improve life expectancy and despite being capable os spiting out a bunch of kids, women decided to keep their legs closed and focused on other things. The Krogan never had a real chance because Tuchanka made having a lot of kids necessay, the Rachni wars made having more children necessary and their stupid rebellion made having more children necessary. Only one of those things were their fault. Of the other two, one was the fault of nature and the other was the fault of the Salarians who used.

[justafan]

I'd still cure it, mostly because at the time I do not know how long the war will go on. It lasted generations for the protheans, and generations with cured krogan means billions of new, expendable, and formidable soldiers being born at a rapid rate.

Beating the reapers is the #1 priority.  Future conflict with the Krogan is a maybe, extinction if the reapers win is a certainty.  Sure I may screw the future in the process, but if I don't win this war, there will be no future.

Modifié par justafan, 22 avril 2013 - 07:34 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Bardox9 wrote...

Their natural birth rate is untenable.

Probably true. The question is, what gives Salarians the right to decide how to deal with that?