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[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

1.  Krogan stillborn children took no path.  I have no problem punishing the actual Krogan that committed actual crimes.  You lose me where billions of children are born stillborn for crimes committed thousands of years ago.  The Geth Heretics are the actually people that committed the actual crime.  Stillborn babies never killed anyone.

3. It is wordplay.  It is the First Contact War.

4. What does that have to do with anything.  They uplifted people they knew were not ready for it period.  I am sure the Asari and Salarians are smart enough to know what they were doing.  And no they did not underestimate them.  They flat out knew.  They simply did not care because they wanted to save themselves and used the Krogan as canon fodder to do it.

5.  If it affects every other race in a negative way then you deal with it when that day comes.  Pre-emptively deciding to deal with it is precisely the logic of the Calalyst.  There is no contradiction.  The Geth Heretics, The Quarians and whoever else are ADULTS.  They can be judged on what they do. 

Are you afraid to quote me now?

1. Their parents do. Look at Clan Werlock. They had paths of destruction already laied out and planned for them. The ONLY krogan that really and truly want change are the members of Wrex's leadership, like Eve/Bakara.
Viloence is ingrained into the krogan subconsious. They are naturally warlike thanks to the decisioins they themselves made in the nuclear wars that ruined Tuchanka.
Every kid is basically a template of the parent . Same killer drives and instincts. Only people like Wrex have actively tried to mutigate or restrict it. As Wrex proves, he's an abnromalaty among krogan. Meaning that Wreve is the common krogan. 80-90% of those krogan would be like Wreve.

3. NOT according to the Turians. According to them, it was a minor incident. A skermish. Nothing more. I must remind you that the attack on Eden Prime was called the "Eden Prime War" when nobody else regarded it as anything more then a colony attack.
It was a war to humans, because that was the biggest fight humans had been part of with another race, not to mention the first. But it WASN'T a war to anyone else. Certinly not the turians.
So sorry, but you are the one using wordplay. It was NOT a war by truian standards.
You really need to stop anthromophizing every race. Not everything is done by human standards.

4. The Council didn't believe that, according to Avina, and the Codex entries on the Krogan themselves. They actually DID believe that the krogan could be uplifted peacefully, to be garudians of the free galaxy. PERIOD. They underestimated the korgan's war-lusting nature.
So, sorry, but AGAIN, you are trumped by the Codex.

5. And if they commit crimes just as you DID perdict, and it happened because you let them go, THEN what does that prove?
It's like meeting a member of an ememy nation trapped under a rock, and saying that even though he's an enemy, you should save him regardless of the harm he could cause, simply because he's trapped and helpless now. Then said enemy goes on to mastermind the massicre of thousands of people. Makes you wish you'd delt with problem then and there, doesn't it?
There is a difference between empathy and blind idealism. Blind idealisim can hurt as many people as ruthless calculus does. If the leader of a governement sees the chance to remove a major future threat to his people, then he will put the future welfare of his people first and formost, and strike down the threat BEFORE it can mature. It's what the quarians did with the geth too. It's not the perfect or ideal soultion, but it works. Mostly, though not always as the geth's retaliation proves.
The Catalyst is the example of one extreme, in always taking the preemptive path. So to counter, you propose the opposate extreme, and wait for everything to crash down on you?
You need to find a middle-man here. Take one of the two options when it's prudent, NOT stay soley on one side of the fence like you are advocating.

[remydat]

Silver,

No, I am on my mobile now and it is tedious to quote.

1. Wrex's father tried to kill him yet Wrex is different than his father. This whole template thing is bull. They are sentient. Tuchanka helped make them what they are and the Salarians and Turians treating them like animals helped keep then that way. All they did was replace Tuchanka the planet as the entity that helps ensure the Krogan remain aggressive. When the so called civilized species kill billions of babies because they think they are a template, what lesson do you think is learned. The so called civilized races are not so civilized.

3. If the people attacked consider it is a war then it is a war. When you attack another nation then the nation attacked has to decide if they consider it an act of war not the aggressors.

4. Mordin and the Dalatross disagree. They seem to be fully aware of it and the Dalatross says their agression is part of the reason they choose to uplift them.

5. Sorry the law doesn't allow me to kill babies because I fear what they may do in the future. By this logic we might as well sterilize all criminals and prevent then from ever having children. We should probably kill any children they already had. Matter of fact, white people enslaved my people hundreds of years ago. Well by golly there is a risk they will do it again so why do I still let them live? Well because this logic is ridiculous.

[Galbrant]

Yes, OP. Even if they ever went rogue I have the rest of the galaxy behind my back the Geth and Rachni included.

[Spartas Husky]

Like I said... test the Krogan with Garvug. Give them ONLY Garvug as a 2nd chance. Give it to them with the choice "fix the planet and you'll then be free to get your own"

Tuchanka and Garvug could not sustain a population explotion. Krogan's get more worlds. And we get to test them. Everyone wins.

A plan pushed by battlemaster and honorary Krogan John/Jane Shepard would not be without merit.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 22 avril 2013 - 10:10 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

No, I am on my mobile now and it is tedious to quote.

1. Wrex's father tried to kill him yet Wrex is different than his father. This whole template thing is bull. They are sentient. Tuchanka helped make them what they are and the Salarians and Turians treating them like animals helped keep then that way. All they did was replace Tuchanka the planet as the entity that helps ensure the Krogan remain aggressive. When the so called civilized species kill billions of babies because they think they are a template, what lesson do you think is learned. The so called civilized races are not so civilized.

3. If the people attacked consider it is a war then it is a war. When you attack another nation then the nation attacked has to decide if they consider it an act of war not the aggressors.

4. Mordin and the Dalatross disagree. They seem to be fully aware of it and the Dalatross says their agression is part of the reason they choose to uplift them.

5. Sorry the law doesn't allow me to kill babies because I fear what they may do in the future. By this logic we might as well sterilize all criminals and prevent then from ever having children. We should probably kill any children they already had. Matter of fact, white people enslaved my people hundreds of years ago. Well by golly there is a risk they will do it again so why do I still let them live? Well because this logic is ridiculous.

2. He's a mutant.
Those are Eve's exact words. Wrex is NOT the avarage krogan. He's the exception to the rule. Or rather, the exception that proves the rule. You forget that the entire reason he became a bounty hunter before ME1 was because he'd given up on his people changing, saying that none of them wanted it. If the "template" thing was bull, Wrex would NEVER have left Tuchanka. The fact that he DID single-handedly disproves your assertation.
All krogan share that base template. Wrex had to work three years straight to make any sort of dent, and Wrex was a krogan celebrety for killing a Thresher Maw in his Rite of Passage, and helping stop Saren.
And based on how they reacted following the Rachni Wars, bacl when the galaxy called them heroes,
is the truians and salarians opinion of the krogan that unjustified? Given
the asteroid drops and WMD strikes the krogan used? Hell, what was
apparently an entire clan of Krogan was following Saren in ME1. That likely didn't do anything to better the krogan's image either.
So AGAIN, you are wrong. When you have billions of people from EVERY OTHER SPECIES to think about, one race is a price that many have to pay to keep them safe. It's the same choice made in the Destroy ending. One race is kept down so that EVERY OTHER race can survive.

3. The TURIANS were the agressors, and THEY didn't consider it a War. Every turian thinks of it as a sinpme incident. A skirmish. What the galaxy considers a war is very different then what humans consider a war. War as the galaxy knows it it multi-planet wars, like the Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions, and the Reaper War. NOT the fight at Shanxi. And notice that after that, no other conflicts are ever called "wars" again?  The Skyllian Blitz is never called a war, despite the open conflict with the batarians at that time.
Again, stop benignly anthromorphizing the other races. Humanity's defitition of a War is NOT the entire galaxy's defenition of a war.

4. The Council, Avina, and Galactic Codex disagree with THAT. The Salarians agreed to it because that was THEIR perogotive for helping. The Council's agenda was to escentally domistacate them.  You can read the Codex entries yourself.

5. Mordin makes it clear that their nervous systems don't even develop thanks to the genophage. So one can argue they aren't even sentiant in that state. Only 1 in 1,000 develop completely. And  AGAIN, the genophage ISN'T what's killing them. As revealed in the ME2 Codex, it's the krogan's own fatalisim that's killing them. And AGAIN, vs every other race out there. By YOUR logic, you think that we should let the pathological murderers lose simply because they say to. That makes NO sense. You have to weigh the pros and cons when managing entire races. The pros of the genophage were higher then the cons. Simple as that. To quote Garrus and Shepard.
"I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs coldhearted dictators every now and then."
"They get things done?"
"They don't give a damn about the consiquences. Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so twenty billion over here can live. "

Note the bolded lines. THAT'S the formula for the genophage. Ten billion die so twenty billion live. Multiply accordingly. YOU are the one operating on the ridiculous logic of blind idealism and benign antromorphisim. You don't give people like that a chance unless you have diffinitive proof that it's not going to backfire. Not unless you want the blood of billions more innocents on your hands. You get blood on your hands either way unless you have a surefire way to ensure otherwise.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 avril 2013 - 04:16 .

[remydat]

Silver,

And mutants happen all the time when you are talking about large populations. Billions of krogan babies have been killed. Billions. How many of them would have been different but they never got the chance to live? So yes I reject your theory. There is no such thing as a template when talking about billions of babies.

Don't care what the aggressors think. They are the aggressors. When one nation attacks another it is an act of war.

So wait, in one thread you are arguing that Mordin's word is law and in this thread it isn't. Make up your mind. Mordin studied the issue directly. Has observed it all his life. He trumps the codex period as does the Dalatross.

Again, can I go around punching mothers in the stomach and say their dead babies don't count because I say so? Can I go kill all the children living today because their ancestors enslaved mine 300 years ago? I reject that logic period. Period.

[PsyrenY]

Haven't read the whole thread but I do have a couple of interesting points here regarding Wrex's mutation. Eve tells you that the males' selfishness and belligerence was bred into them - they evolved that way over time. So a mutation is going to be the fastest way to turn that around, and Wrex's mutation appears to be key.

So the solution to Krogan aggression therefore is to get Wrex's mutation (or one like it) to as many of the males as possible. In-game we see two ways this might happen:

1) Per Citadel, a large number of females are screwing him around the clock (with Eve's encouragement), as he now has the most desirable genes on the planet. Obviously this isn't likely to shift Tuchanka's attitude by itself, but it's possible he could be a sort of new Noah for the Krogan, with a decent proportion of the next generation carrying his mutation (and thus, his relatively reasonable nature.) Not all Krogan would be fixed this way, but enough of them would that they couldn't unify in their desires to expand, and become the galactic terror they once were. If a civil war breaks out between the bad krogan and the good ones, the rest of the galaxy merely has to step in to help the good ones and the mean ones will, outnumbered, die off.

2) My preferred method - Wrex's genes are part of the genophage cure, thanks to Mordin's scalpel. This WAS canonically distributed to every Krogan on Tuchanka, via the Shroud. So it's possible that his mutation could spread across the planet that way. Again, I don't know how effective this would be about changing the attitude of existing adult krogan, but if I were Bioware and wanted to handwave a less confrontational/expansionist Krogan than the Rebellions versions, that would be a good way to go about it.

So between those two I think, from a metagame standpoint, we have ways out of the dangerous expanding krogan problem.

Beyond that, there are other allies the galaxy has now that they didn't have during the Rebellions. The Humans have Turian levels of firepower/ingenuity to fight Krogan in space, and the Elcor have sufficient strength to face the Krogan on the ground if they try anything. But more importantly, a paragon galaxy also has the Geth and Rachni to help keep the Krogan in check, two races that can propagate just as fast as they can if not faster. Thus, even if the Krogan balloon and stop playing nice, we'll have a way to fight back.

So put all that together and I would be fine curing the genophage - though of course I would make sure Eve and Wrex were in charge of the race for as long as possible.

[Display Name Owner]

I don't think it's that simple. Wrex doesn't have 'reasonable genes', he's taken centuries of living under the Genophage, travelling the galaxy and brooding on the Krogan situation, not to mention being betrayed by his father, and that's what's shaped his mindset. Even with all that, it's only recently that he decided to actually do something about it.

Still, I'm sure he would make sure to teach his many, many children (and no matter how reasonable they are personally, the sheer number of them remains a problem) to live according to his vision for the Krogan. The problem is that a great many other warlords who don't share his view are likely on a round the clock lovin' spree (that's the technical term), and their collective children will likely outnumber his.

[Megaton_Hope]

One could always rely on the Krogan to keep their numbers down purposefully. They don't sporulate.

[Argolas]

Argolas wrote...

THE KROGAN ARE DEMILITARIZED. YOU CAN'T INVADE WORLDS WITHOUT WARSHIPS.

Am I wrong or why does everyone keep ignoring that fact?

[remydat]

So how do people explain guys like Char. You know the dude we meet on Illium who just wants to spend the rest of his life with his Asari lover and who died in ME3 and his last dying act was to write a message for her.

Wr tend to meet the **** Krogan because the ****s tend to be more vocal. Wrex, Eve and Char appear different. Even Patriarch is not a hyper aggressive dude. They are enough examples in the game to tell me that the Krogan like any species are not confined by their genetics. They can learb and evolve socially. They just had little reason too. They grew up in a harsh environment where you had to be aggressive and violent to survive. They were then uplifted because that violence and aggression was used to fight the Rachni. They were then reward for violently and aggressively defeating the Rachni with planets. You have now reinforced like Tuchanka did that violence and aggression is rewarded. Why would they stop being violent and aggressive then? Then when they rebell you teach them more violence and aggression by giving them stillborn children for all eternity.

So where in all of this have the so called civilized races taught the Krogan anything except that the people who are more violent and aggressive survive?

Modifié par remydat, 23 avril 2013 - 05:48 .

[Bardox9]

As I have said before, I cure the Genophage for Wrex, Bakara, and Grunt. But if I lived in the ME universe, as proposed by the OP, I would not. For those that think it would be a good idea listen to the speaker for Clan Weyrloc during Mordins loyalty mission in ME2. Listen to his full dialog, without using the renagade interrupt, then see if a cure is really such a good idea. You can find it on youtube if you don't want to do a playthrough. You will see the future of the Krogan without the Genophage.

Modifié par Bardox9, 23 avril 2013 - 06:15 .

[justafan]

Argolas wrote...

Argolas wrote...

THE KROGAN ARE DEMILITARIZED. YOU CAN'T INVADE WORLDS WITHOUT WARSHIPS.

Am I wrong or why does everyone keep ignoring that fact?

To be fair, in 500 years a lot can change, and at that point there might not be any Turians or Salarians who might even care why the Krogan were demilitarized in the "distant past" by their standards and not be worried, while there will be a whole generation of Krogan still alive who lived through the genophage and are still probably sore about it.

[Argolas]

justafan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Argolas wrote...

THE KROGAN ARE DEMILITARIZED. YOU CAN'T INVADE WORLDS WITHOUT WARSHIPS.

Am I wrong or why does everyone keep ignoring that fact?

To be fair, in 500 years a lot can change, and at that point there might not be any Turians or Salarians who might even care why the Krogan were demilitarized in the "distant past" by their standards and not be worried, while there will be a whole generation of Krogan still alive who lived through the genophage and are still probably sore about it.

After 500 more years of demilitarization, the Krogan have either managed to deal with their birth rates themselves or wiped each other out because Tuchanka and maybe a few "reward worlds" can't support them otherwise.

And consider that time runs differently for Krogan and Asari. Both species will very well remember what happened in the rebellions for a long time.

[justafan]

Argolas wrote...

justafan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Argolas wrote...

THE KROGAN ARE DEMILITARIZED. YOU CAN'T INVADE WORLDS WITHOUT WARSHIPS.

Am I wrong or why does everyone keep ignoring that fact?

To be fair, in 500 years a lot can change, and at that point there might not be any Turians or Salarians who might even care why the Krogan were demilitarized in the "distant past" by their standards and not be worried, while there will be a whole generation of Krogan still alive who lived through the genophage and are still probably sore about it.

After 500 more years of demilitarization, the Krogan have either managed to deal with their birth rates themselves or wiped each other out because Tuchanka and maybe a few "reward worlds" can't support them otherwise.

And consider that time runs differently for Krogan and Asari. Both species will very well remember what happened in the rebellions for a long time.

I would assume their demiitarization would end pretty soon after ME3.  They need ships to colonize, and they would not be content to be unnable to defend their colonies from pirates or other threats.  But even if it takes longer, they will eventually be able to remilitarize withing the Genophaged Krogan's lifetime, and they will remember far longer than the Turians or Salarians.  The Asari will be the only who remember the genophage times, and Krogan outlive even them.

And who knows how long it would take them to destroy themselves at their rate of expansion?  IIRC the period between the Rachni wars and Krogan rebellions was fairly long.

Modifié par justafan, 23 avril 2013 - 09:09 .

[KainD]

I would spread the genophage to all other species so it would be fair.

[Argolas]

The Rebellions started roughly 400 years after the rachni war was over (according to the wiki at least, I hope it is accurate). The rebellion's beginning was delayed by granting the Krogan more and more worlds for a long time.

Krogan can use civilian ships to colonize and they won't need too many of them. Colonies can by protected by AA guns and the demilitarization authorities themselves.

I just think nobody would be stupid enough to allow the Krogan to expand at will again before they have found a solution to their birth rate problem. If they just shrug and let the Krogan overrun them- that's their own fault then really.

[justafan]

Argolas wrote...

The Rebellions started roughly 400 years after the rachni war was over (according to the wiki at least, I hope it is accurate). The rebellion's beginning was delayed by granting the Krogan more and more worlds for a long time.

Krogan can use civilian ships to colonize and they won't need too many of them. Colonies can by protected by AA guns and the demilitarization authorities themselves.

I just think nobody would be stupid enough to allow the Krogan to expand at will again before they have found a solution to their birth rate problem. If they just shrug and let the Krogan overrun them- that's their own fault then really.

Honestly, the Council has so far utterly failed to convince me of their ability to plan ahead to prevent future conflicts.  400 years is plenty of time to forget and decay resolve on the part of the short lived species, and I doubt the Asari have the will to enforce anything militarily.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

And mutants happen all the time when you are talking about large populations. Billions of krogan babies have been killed. Billions. How many of them would have been different but they never got the chance to live? So yes I reject your theory. There is no such thing as a template when talking about billions of babies.

Don't care what the aggressors think. They are the aggressors. When one nation attacks another it is an act of war.

So wait, in one thread you are arguing that Mordin's word is law and in this thread it isn't. Make up your mind. Mordin studied the issue directly. Has observed it all his life. He trumps the codex period as does the Dalatross.

Again, can I go around punching mothers in the stomach and say their dead babies don't count because I say so? Can I go kill all the children living today because their ancestors enslaved mine 300 years ago? I reject that logic period. Period.

And yet, how many others were trying to actively unite the Krogan into a unified government before Wrex? Name me one. Wrex said in ME2 that he had most of the krogan opposing him. And that changing the krogan would be slow, and that it wouldn't change the krogan's base nature, but suppress and control it.
So, based on the empirical evidence, including things stated by Wrex Himself, I'd be willing to say 2 dozen out of those billions would have been different. All the rest would have followed mainstream krogan sociaty of being selfish, coldhearted, and warmongering.  So, sorry, but your rejection is false, as your entire conclusion is once again, incorrect. Ignoring the facts won't help you this time.

Not if one side does NOT acknowledge it as such. Humans are the ONLY ONES that called that a War. No one else did. Different deffinitions. It's an "incident." NOT war.

And AGAIN, wrong. Once again, you lack comprehension. Mordin was working with STG to maintain the genophage. And the Salarians were the ones that created it at the behest of the Turians, who went subverted the Council and used the weapon themselves. I NEVER contridicted myself - you failed to read it. I said that the Salarians agenda was different then the Council - something you fail to comprehend. The salarians saw the krogan as weapons only, which was different from what the Citadel Council saw them as. The Council wanted them peacefully uplifted. The leaders of the Salarian Union didn't. TWO SEPERATE AGENDAS. Learn to read this.

And by rejecting that logic, your entire family and all your siblings and kids die.
Not  so easy now, is it?
First off, it's NOT killing them like a punch, because the nervous system never develops. The baby is NEVER ALIVE to begin with. Not humane, but it prevented the krogan from becoming the astroid-dropping, WMD-using, civilian-slaughtering race of old.
NOTHING is ever that black and white. It's the same logic Garrus used. "Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live." 
It's the krogan for every other life in the galaxy. It was the only call anyone could make at the time. That's the cold, hard, facts, and by rejecting that, you are rejecting your brothers, and every other life since that.
That's REAL LIFE LOGIC. You can't maintain this air of blind idealism when it would have killed MORE then the genophage ever did. THAT is the simple truth. Period. PERIOD.

[Argolas]

justafan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Rebellions started roughly 400 years after the rachni war was over (according to the wiki at least, I hope it is accurate). The rebellion's beginning was delayed by granting the Krogan more and more worlds for a long time.

Krogan can use civilian ships to colonize and they won't need too many of them. Colonies can by protected by AA guns and the demilitarization authorities themselves.

I just think nobody would be stupid enough to allow the Krogan to expand at will again before they have found a solution to their birth rate problem. If they just shrug and let the Krogan overrun them- that's their own fault then really.

Honestly, the Council has so far utterly failed to convince me of their ability to plan ahead to prevent future conflicts.  400 years is plenty of time to forget and decay resolve on the part of the short lived species, and I doubt the Asari have the will to enforce anything militarily.

If they can't think straight on that matter that really would be unfortunate, but there is nothing my Shepard could do about it. I think the Krogan deserve a cure and I think they can easily be contained until they adapted to their role in the galactic community. If the council fails to do so, the result will iikely cost many lives. I hope it won't, but I can't deny the Krogan their cure because the council might be too stupid to deal with the situation.

[remydat]

Bardox9 wrote...

As I have said before, I cure the Genophage for Wrex, Bakara, and Grunt. But if I lived in the ME universe, as proposed by the OP, I would not. For those that think it would be a good idea listen to the speaker for Clan Weyrloc during Mordins loyalty mission in ME2. Listen to his full dialog, without using the renagade interrupt, then see if a cure is really such a good idea. You can find it on youtube if you don't want to do a playthrough. You will see the future of the Krogan without the Genophage.

Listen to Hitler speak and tell me if humans should live?  That is basically all you are saying here.   Let's pick the worse a species has to off and decide to kill billions of babies based on it.  Over the course of human history I dare say millions if not billions of people have been racists, bigots, etc.  Whole nations have been this way.  Whole nations have enslaved other people and did so for hundreds of years.  So by this logic, all of humanity is condemned forever more because of them.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, how many others were trying to actively unite the Krogan into a unified government before Wrex? Name me one. Wrex said in ME2 that he had most of the krogan opposing him. And that changing the krogan would be slow, and that it wouldn't change the krogan's base nature, but suppress and control it.
So, based on the empirical evidence, including things stated by Wrex Himself, I'd be willing to say 2 dozen out of those billions would have been different. All the rest would have followed mainstream krogan sociaty of being selfish, coldhearted, and warmongering.  So, sorry, but your rejection is false, as your entire conclusion is once again, incorrect. Ignoring the facts won't help you this time.

Not if one side does NOT acknowledge it as such. Humans are the ONLY ONES that called that a War. No one else did. Different deffinitions. It's an "incident." NOT war.

And AGAIN, wrong. Once again, you lack comprehension. Mordin was working with STG to maintain the genophage. And the Salarians were the ones that created it at the behest of the Turians, who went subverted the Council and used the weapon themselves. I NEVER contridicted myself - you failed to read it. I said that the Salarians agenda was different then the Council - something you fail to comprehend. The salarians saw the krogan as weapons only, which was different from what the Citadel Council saw them as. The Council wanted them peacefully uplifted. The leaders of the Salarian Union didn't. TWO SEPERATE AGENDAS. Learn to read this.

And by rejecting that logic, your entire family and all your siblings and kids die.
Not  so easy now, is it?
First off, it's NOT killing them like a punch, because the nervous system never develops. The baby is NEVER ALIVE to begin with. Not humane, but it prevented the krogan from becoming the astroid-dropping, WMD-using, civilian-slaughtering race of old.
NOTHING is ever that black and white. It's the same logic Garrus used. "Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live." 
It's the krogan for every other life in the galaxy. It was the only call anyone could make at the time. That's the cold, hard, facts, and by rejecting that, you are rejecting your brothers, and every other life since that.
That's REAL LIFE LOGIC. You can't maintain this air of blind idealism when it would have killed MORE then the genophage ever did. THAT is the simple truth. Period. PERIOD.

You have literally killed billions of babies Silver.  How many of those billions would have been like Wrex.  These are just empty statements with no meaning.  Eve flat out tells you the females are different.  Why are you condemning females ie the ones actually having babies born stillborn because of what men do?  Do those females not have the right to fight a Civil War as Eve claims they will?  All you are doing is cherry picking.  People say the Krogan can't change.  Eve says the females have.  Why should I kill innocent babies when there is CONFLICTING information.  Why should I accept this when a Krogan like Char seems like a pretty good person?  So you have a choice, you can kill billions of babies by believing what some people have said or you can let the Krogan Females decide their own future based on what Eve said. 

Nope, the Salarians knew.  They simply uplifted them and hoped for the best. 

Killing a fetus is killing a fetus dude.  Wheter I do it by punching or a biological weapon which most people think biological weapons are bad.  And when the Krogan females are wondering off and allowing themselves to be killed because of your biological weapon your ridiculous notions of nervous systems and sh*t don't mean anything.  Without the biological weapon they would be born alive.  If that were not true then you wouldn't need the biological weapon.  So trying to tell the Krogan they should be cool with it based on your ideas is asinine.  Go cause a women to have a miscarriage early enough in her pregnacy before the nervous sytem has developed and tell me what she thinks of your ideas.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, how many others were trying to actively unite the Krogan into a unified government before Wrex? Name me one. Wrex said in ME2 that he had most of the krogan opposing him. And that changing the krogan would be slow, and that it wouldn't change the krogan's base nature, but suppress and control it.
So, based on the empirical evidence, including things stated by Wrex Himself, I'd be willing to say 2 dozen out of those billions would have been different. All the rest would have followed mainstream krogan sociaty of being selfish, coldhearted, and warmongering.  So, sorry, but your rejection is false, as your entire conclusion is once again, incorrect. Ignoring the facts won't help you this time.

Not if one side does NOT acknowledge it as such. Humans are the ONLY ONES that called that a War. No one else did. Different deffinitions. It's an "incident." NOT war.

And AGAIN, wrong. Once again, you lack comprehension. Mordin was working with STG to maintain the genophage. And the Salarians were the ones that created it at the behest of the Turians, who went subverted the Council and used the weapon themselves. I NEVER contridicted myself - you failed to read it. I said that the Salarians agenda was different then the Council - something you fail to comprehend. The salarians saw the krogan as weapons only, which was different from what the Citadel Council saw them as. The Council wanted them peacefully uplifted. The leaders of the Salarian Union didn't. TWO SEPERATE AGENDAS. Learn to read this.

And by rejecting that logic, your entire family and all your siblings and kids die.
Not  so easy now, is it?
First off, it's NOT killing them like a punch, because the nervous system never develops. The baby is NEVER ALIVE to begin with. Not humane, but it prevented the krogan from becoming the astroid-dropping, WMD-using, civilian-slaughtering race of old.
NOTHING is ever that black and white. It's the same logic Garrus used. "Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live." 
It's the krogan for every other life in the galaxy. It was the only call anyone could make at the time. That's the cold, hard, facts, and by rejecting that, you are rejecting your brothers, and every other life since that.
That's REAL LIFE LOGIC. You can't maintain this air of blind idealism when it would have killed MORE then the genophage ever did. THAT is the simple truth. Period. PERIOD.

You have literally killed billions of babies Silver.  How many of those billions would have been like Wrex.  These are just empty statements with no meaning.  Eve flat out tells you the females are different.  Why are you condemning females ie the ones actually having babies born stillborn because of what men do?  Do those females not have the right to fight a Civil War as Eve claims they will?  All you are doing is cherry picking.  People say the Krogan can't change.  Eve says the females have.  Why should I kill innocent babies when there is CONFLICTING information.  Why should I accept this when a Krogan like Char seems like a pretty good person?  So you have a choice, you can kill billions of babies by believing what some people have said or you can let the Krogan Females decide their own future based on what Eve said. 

Nope, the Salarians knew.  They simply uplifted them and hoped for the best. 

Killing a fetus is killing a fetus dude.  Wheter I do it by punching or a biological weapon which most people think biological weapons are bad.  And when the Krogan females are wondering off and allowing themselves to be killed because of your biological weapon your ridiculous notions of nervous systems and sh*t don't mean anything.  Without the biological weapon they would be born alive.  If that were not true then you wouldn't need the biological weapon.  So trying to tell the Krogan they should be cool with it based on your ideas is asinine.  Go cause a women to have a miscarriage early enough in her pregnacy before the nervous sytem has developed and tell me what she thinks of your ideas.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to understand real-world logic.

To reiterate, they were NEVER ALIVE TO BEGIN WITH, because the genophage made sure their nervous systems never developed. That means the ones stillborn were stillborn because they were NEVER ALIVE. the ones that WERE actually alive were the ones that were born. I believe Mordin explains this on Tuchanka.  To put it in terms YOU would be likely to understand, it's like building an A.I. body, then not putting a program in it. Not killing if you never brought it online to begin with.

And ONCE AGAIN, based on natural krogan environment, behavior, and ingrained warlike instincts, less then 2-3 dozen at the MOST would have been like Wrex. If not less. Once again, I remind you that Wrex took 1,000 years off Tuchanka exploring the wider galaxy to get those views. And only JUST NOW was actually doing something about it. We already saw in the Urdnot Camp in ME2, and the Hollows in ME3, that the majority of krogan are like Wreve - warmongers.
And I wasn't condemning the females at all. When did I ever say anything like that? The females have their own clan structure, their own control. And THEY are typacally the ones saying that change is impossible when looking at themselves. The KROGAN THEMSELVES are the one's saying those things as "can't change."
Although, you ONCE AGAIN seem to be completely
and utterly confussed. I never said I agreed with the ethics, but I
understand why it was done and the reasoning behind it.  AGAIN, "ten
billion over here die so that twenty billion over there can live."
That's what it comes down to. It was either the krogan, or everyone
else. Same choice you make when weighing the geth against every other
race in the Destroy ending. Both cases, you have to decide if your
personal morals are worth more then your family, your friends, and
everyone you've ever known and ever met. If you think you are the
all-knowing, and that what you think of yourself is worth your siblings,
parents, and everyone else in the known galaxy, then all the power to
you. But that isn't how the real world works. "Have your cake and eat it too" is NOT the norm for everyday life.

The Council thought otherwise. They believed the krogan could be peacefully uplifted. You hear this straight from Avina in ME1 when asking about the krogan rebellions, rachni wars, and krogan memorial.  And get subsiquent Codex entries that show the Citadel Council truly believed the krogan could be uplifted peacefully.

And AGAIN, to reiterate, IT WAS NEVER ALIVE TO BEGIN WITH. In terms that even YOU can't misinterperit, it's like making a robot body, then not installing the brain. Never alive to begin with, so scrapping the shell ISN'T murder. That's the simple truth. So NO, it's NOT a living being, "dude." You need to have actual brain activity and be ALIVE to be murdered. The stillborn baibes are NOT because their nervous systems never grow.  So in that, YOUR one-way blind idealism is what doesn't matter in this. It's NOT causing a miscarage mid-term. The child was NEVER ALIVE TO BEGIN WITH. So stop trying to use that as an example when it has NO BEARING on this.
And AGAIN, without said weapon, the krogan would have enslaved everyone.  Without it, billions would have been slaughtered or enslaved. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's NOT the situation the galaxy was in. You thinking that everything can magically be butterflies and rainbows when the other is warmongering and bloodthirsty by nature, is the asinine concept. You would subjugate your siblings, kids, family, and everything else to death and slavery? Just to satsify your personal code of conduct?
To quote Javik: "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
"The silence is your answer."

What you intend.... is basically the Refuse ending. Death to everyone to satisfy your perosnal ideals. You CAN'T be so blinded by this that you can't understand that. You don't have any comprehension of the weight of these choices. So please don't act like you do.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 avril 2013 - 07:40 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Bardox9 wrote...

As I have said before, I cure the Genophage for Wrex, Bakara, and Grunt. But if I lived in the ME universe, as proposed by the OP, I would not. For those that think it would be a good idea listen to the speaker for Clan Weyrloc during Mordins loyalty mission in ME2. Listen to his full dialog, without using the renagade interrupt, then see if a cure is really such a good idea. You can find it on youtube if you don't want to do a playthrough. You will see the future of the Krogan without the Genophage.

There are humans alive right now in the real world who talk like that. Judging the Krogan by that guy, or by Gatatog Uvenk, is no better than judging humanity by Vido Santiago or Lord Darius. There are loads of guys like that, sure. And there are more, the more insular and conflict-centered Krogan society is allowed to become. And they don't all stick around on Tuchanka.