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[Wayning_Star]

Morlath wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...


In the ME universe the Krogan were uplifted about 2,000 years ago. In that time there has been little to no effort to control their violent nature. If self preservation wasn't enough to get them to overcome their blood lust, I can't imagine that returning their greatest weapon (I.E. their high birth rate) would do it either.

Which is why I said:

"They're a biologically agreesive species that feel betrayed by the entire galatic community. Without any helpful Salarians there is no feasible cure in the coming future and the women are getting emotionally hurt by each stillbirth. At no point since their uplifting has the Krogan race been in a position to change their identity except beneath the leadership of Wrex and Eve.They're a biologically agreesive species that feel betrayed by the entire galatic community. Without any helpful Salarians there is no feasible cure in the coming future and the women are getting emotionally hurt by each stillbirth. At no point since their uplifting has the Krogan race been in a position to change their identity except beneath the leadership of Wrex and Eve."

The species hasn't had a chance to grow because of the entire cloud (no pun intended) of the Genophage hanging over them. In their eyes what's the point of trying to be more than their stereotypes of they're going extinct anyway? Wrex says this in ME1 and suggests that it's a general attitude by the newer generations.

boy we're sure lucky humans aren't like that..judging from the posts regarding 'aggressive' behavior..lol

(being sarcastic)

[grey_wind]

Morlath wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...


In the ME universe the Krogan were uplifted about 2,000 years ago. In that time there has been little to no effort to control their violent nature. If self preservation wasn't enough to get them to overcome their blood lust, I can't imagine that returning their greatest weapon (I.E. their high birth rate) would do it either.

Which is why I said:

"They're a biologically agreesive species that feel betrayed by the entire galatic community. Without any helpful Salarians there is no feasible cure in the coming future and the women are getting emotionally hurt by each stillbirth. At no point since their uplifting has the Krogan race been in a position to change their identity except beneath the leadership of Wrex and Eve.They're a biologically agreesive species that feel betrayed by the entire galatic community. Without any helpful Salarians there is no feasible cure in the coming future and the women are getting emotionally hurt by each stillbirth. At no point since their uplifting has the Krogan race been in a position to change their identity except beneath the leadership of Wrex and Eve."

The species hasn't had a chance to grow because of the entire cloud (no pun intended) of the Genophage hanging over them. In their eyes what's the point of trying to be more than their stereotypes of they're going extinct anyway? Wrex says this in ME1 and suggests that it's a general attitude by the newer generations.

So you raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to 0.05%. Now they can reproduce more and are no longer impeded by the belief that their species is going extinct and they have no future (not that it was true to begin with), and you ensure Wrex still has enough leverage to control the clans (his entire basis for controlling them is lost if you cure the Genophage).
And the best part is that even if the Krogan decide to rebel, their birth rate is not high enough to make them the threat they were last time, and they can be pushed back easily enough.

[remydat]

Bardox,

The game is rigged. A large part of the reason the krogan are the way they are according to Eve is that the genophage turned them into wandering killers seeking targets to justify their existence. You took an aggressive species and instead of helping them learn a new path effectively doubled down on their aggression by uplifting them to use that aggression against the rachni and then giving them a disease that reinforces that aggression. At least the Krogan have the excuse that they are a product of their harsh planet. What is your excuse oh civilized human or council member? You exploited the aggression to save your ass then cry about it when it is turned against you.

How about this. Stop using that aggression to your own benefit and teach or let them learn via Krogan like Wrex there is a better way. However continually using that aggreassion when it suits you and then discarding them afterwards is bull**** plain and simple.  Abd completely uncivilized.  At least those animals have the decency to fight you face to face instead of stab you in the back repeatedly.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 10:49 .

[Morlath]

grey_wind wrote...

So you raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to 0.05%. Now they can reproduce more and are no longer impeded by the belief that their species is going extinct and they have no future (not that it was true to begin with), and you ensure Wrex still has enough leverage to control the clans (his entire basis for controlling them is lost if you cure the Genophage).
And the best part is that even if the Krogan decide to rebel, their birth rate is not high enough to make them the threat they were last time, and they can be pushed back easily enough.

That's a total Eugenics argument. You're essentially wanting to bred the aggressiveness out of a sentient species so that they fit into the galactic society already in place. What's next? If a generation gets too aggressive you then lower the birthrate again so that they can't carry on their bloodlines?

[Goneaviking]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

"The genophage was a mistake bordering on a war crime." Says it all. Cure it.

What's this "bordering on" crap?

Check out Article 2. 

[grey_wind]

Morlath wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

So you raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to 0.05%. Now they can reproduce more and are no longer impeded by the belief that their species is going extinct and they have no future (not that it was true to begin with), and you ensure Wrex still has enough leverage to control the clans (his entire basis for controlling them is lost if you cure the Genophage).
And the best part is that even if the Krogan decide to rebel, their birth rate is not high enough to make them the threat they were last time, and they can be pushed back easily enough.

That's a total Eugenics argument. You're essentially wanting to bred the aggressiveness out of a sentient species so that they fit into the galactic society already in place. What's next? If a generation gets too aggressive you then lower the birthrate again so that they can't carry on their bloodlines?

How the hell is that an eugenics argument? I've said nothing about breeding their aggressiveness out. I've only proposed a solution that makes the Krogan happy, keeps Wrex in control, and ensures they don't overrun the galaxy like last time.
With a 0.05% birth rate, the Krogan are no longer going extinct, but if they rise in rebellion, their armies can be crushed before they breed 100 more armies to replace what they've lost.

[Morlath]

grey_wind wrote...

How the hell is that an eugenics argument? I've said nothing about breeding their aggressiveness out. I've only proposed a solution that makes the Krogan happy, keeps Wrex in control, and ensures they don't overrun the galaxy like last time.
With a 0.05% birth rate, the Krogan are no longer going extinct, but if they rise in rebellion, their armies can be crushed before they breed 100 more armies to replace what they've lost.

How is having a 0.05% birth rate going to keep the Krogan happy? You realise that out of every 1,000 pregnancies 9,995 are going to end up failing/being still births? You think moving that number down from 9,999 somehow makes the entire thing right?

And of course it's a eugenics argument. You want to keep the Krogan under control until their current level of social aggressiveness has been brought under control and they're more docile and thus less of a threat. You're trying to bred the Krogan into being the type of society you want rather than the society their social evolution will let them become given a fair deal.

[Bardox9]

The use of the Genophage was a war crime. The only reason it wasn't treated as such is becuase it was used by the very people that would be responsible for punishing such actions. "It's not a crime because -we- did it." Like the Genophage itself, this is wrong on soooo many levels. But just because it was and still is wrong doesn't mean it should be cured. It just means that it was monstrous act. When taken into context, it was a monstrous act that the Krogan made necessary with the rebellions when they tried to kill everyone.

War is who they are. It's why the Salarians uplifted them. It's why their home world became (and is still) a wasteland. They advance themselves within their own clans by killing their way to the top. The one in charge is the one with the highest body count. It wasn't the Genophage that made them that way. Curing the Genophage is not going to "make it all better".

[grey_wind]

Morlath wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

How the hell is that an eugenics argument? I've said nothing about breeding their aggressiveness out. I've only proposed a solution that makes the Krogan happy, keeps Wrex in control, and ensures they don't overrun the galaxy like last time.
With a 0.05% birth rate, the Krogan are no longer going extinct, but if they rise in rebellion, their armies can be crushed before they breed 100 more armies to replace what they've lost.

How is having a 0.05% birth rate going to keep the Krogan happy? You realise that out of every 1,000 pregnancies 9,995 are going to end up failing/being still births? You think moving that number down from 9,999 somehow makes the entire thing right?

And of course it's a eugenics argument. You want to keep the Krogan under control until their current level of social aggressiveness has been brought under control and they're more docile and thus less of a threat. You're trying to bred the Krogan into being the type of society you want rather than the society their social evolution will let them become given a fair deal.

The Genophage was never right to begin with, but undoing it is only going to cause more damage than leaving it alone. The Krogan (falsely) believed the Genophage was a slow extinction, so upping that number is doubtless going to make them happy. It's not great, but as Wrex, Okeer, Grunt and Mordin have all argued in ME1 and 2, the Genophage (at 0.01% birth rates) is something the Krogan can overcome on a psychological level if they're given even a little hope.

I'm not arguing for an eugenics program. This is absurd. If they're going to be agrressive generation after generation, so be it. I'm only arguing for a birth rate that doesn't lead to Wrex being overthrown and a new Krogan Rebellions starting. In the long run, that's good even for the Krogan. Remember what Mordin said in ME2:
If the genophage was overcome and there was evidence of Krogan aggression, the Turian Hierarchy and Human Alliance were going to bomb them into extinction before risking the start of another millenia long war.

[Morlath]

Bardox9 wrote...

The use of the Genophage was a war crime. The only reason it wasn't treated as such is becuase it was used by the very people that would be responsible for punishing such actions. "It's not a crime because -we- did it." Like the Genophage itself, this is wrong on soooo many levels. But just because it was and still is wrong doesn't mean it should be cured. It just means that it was monstrous act. When taken into context, it was a monstrous act that the Krogan made necessary with the rebellions when they tried to kill everyone.

War is who they are. It's why the Salarians uplifted them. It's why their home world became (and is still) a wasteland. They advance themselves within their own clans by killing their way to the top. The one in charge is the one with the highest body count. It wasn't the Genophage that made them that way. Curing the Genophage is not going to "make it all better".

I'm really interested in how you can justify the continuation of a war crime simply because you don't the social mentality of the species affected. Is "It was horrible but if we cure it we don't know what the Krogan will do. So let's not." really all this boils down to for you?

[Morlath]

grey_wind wrote...

The Genophage was never right to begin with, but undoing it is only going to cause more damage than leaving it alone. The Krogan (falsely) believed the Genophage was a slow extinction, so upping that number is doubtless going to make them happy. It's not great, but as Wrex, Okeer, Grunt and Mordin have all argued in ME1 and 2, the Genophage (at 0.01% birth rates) is something the Krogan can overcome on a psychological level if they're given even a little hope.

I'm not arguing for an eugenics program. This is absurd. If they're going to be agrressive generation after generation, so be it. I'm only arguing for a birth rate that doesn't lead to Wrex being overthrown and a new Krogan Rebellions starting. In the long run, that's good even for the Krogan. Remember what Mordin said in ME2:
If the genophage was overcome and there was evidence of Krogan aggression, the Turian Hierarchy and Human Alliance were going to bomb them into extinction before risking the start of another millenia long war.

I'd argue that it isn't a false belief. Like I stated in an above post, the Krogan are being slowly bred to not get pregnant through the sheer number of fail births.

Taken from the ME Wiki:

The Genophage's modus operandi is not to reduce the fertility of Krogan females, but rather the probability of viable pregnancies: many Krogan die in stillbirth, with most fetuses never even reaching this stage of development. Moreover, every cell in each Krogan is infected, to prevent the use of gene therapy to counteract it. Though the Genophage was not designed as a "sterility plague", the combination of a low frequency of viable pregnancies with the Krogan proclivity to violence and indifference about focused breeding leaves the Krogan a dying race, and soon to be extinct.

It isn't a mutation that has reduced fertility, it's a mutation that creates still births. This is psychological conditioning that, over time, actively reduces the amount of new births attempted. Even Krogan women will get emotionally scarred by losing too many fetuses.

Now I might agree with you if it was a pure fertility mutation. It would still need to a higher % to make a noticeable difference for the Krogan people and their physiological evolution would slowly increase the fertility rate over time anyway (since they were overcoming the original Genophage anyway).

The Genophage may have been better than mass extinction of the Krogans but at some point they have to be allowed to kill themselves (in war) if they want to. The Korgans are never going to change if they aren't given the chance in the first place.

Of course it's Wrex who is showing everyone that there is the potential for change.

[Bardox9]

Morlath wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

The use of the Genophage was a war crime. The only reason it wasn't treated as such is becuase it was used by the very people that would be responsible for punishing such actions. "It's not a crime because -we- did it." Like the Genophage itself, this is wrong on soooo many levels. But just because it was and still is wrong doesn't mean it should be cured. It just means that it was monstrous act. When taken into context, it was a monstrous act that the Krogan made necessary with the rebellions when they tried to kill everyone.

War is who they are. It's why the Salarians uplifted them. It's why their home world became (and is still) a wasteland. They advance themselves within their own clans by killing their way to the top. The one in charge is the one with the highest body count. It wasn't the Genophage that made them that way. Curing the Genophage is not going to "make it all better".

I'm really interested in how you can justify the continuation of a war crime simply because you don't the social mentality of the species affected. Is "It was horrible but if we cure it we don't know what the Krogan will do. So let's not." really all this boils down to for you?

It boils down to the average Krogan would rather kill something than deal with their people's problems. The leading cause of Krogan deaths is the Krogan. The Salarians invented the Genophage and the Turians used it, but it was the Krogan that made such a creation necessary. Three hundred years of war because they refused to control their birth rate and not "pop them out" till they over crowded a planet. The Genophage was the only thing that stopped them. In the 1,400 years since, they (as a people) have not changed. War is still the center piece of their culture. You can blame the Genophage for that if you like, but it's the way they were before the Salarians up lifted them and it is the way they are still.

The Genophage is not driving the Krogan to extinction. The Krogan are driving the Krogan to extinction. They don't need a cure, they need a direction. Wrex's ME2 plans is the single best path for the Krogan. A cure at their current stage will only lead to another war.

The Genophage was and is an atrocity, but it is slightly less sh*tty than genocide of the people that saved the galaxy from the Rachni. The coucil races didn't want to destroy the Krogan, just stop the Krogan from trying to destroy everyone else. If the krogan stopped killing each other and focused on rebuilding their homeworld there would be alot more of them. We start to see that change in ME2, but only because the genophage exists and is forcing them to change. And even then it's only with Wrex at the head of Urdnot destroying any clan that doesn't get with the program.

Modifié par Bardox9, 03 mai 2013 - 09:02 .

[Morlath]

Bardox9 wrote...

It boils down to the average Krogan would rather kill something than deal with their people's problems. The leading cause of Krogan deaths is the Krogan. The Salarians invented the Genophage and the Turians used it, but it was the Krogan that made such a creation necessary. Three hundred years of war because they refused to control their birth rate and not "pop them out" till they over crowded a planet. The Genophage was the only thing that stopped them. In the 1,400 years since, they (as a people) have not changed. War is still the center piece of their culture. You can blame the Genophage for that if you like, but it's the way they were before the Salarians up lifted them and it is the way they are still.

The Genophage is not driving the Krogan to extinction. The Krogan are driving the Krogan to extinction. They don't need a cure, they need a direction. Wrex's ME2 plans is the single best path for the Krogan. A cure at their current stage will only lead to another war.

The Genophage was and is an atrocity, but it is slightly less sh*tty than genocide of the people that saved the galaxy from the Rachni. The coucil races didn't want to destroy the Krogan, just stop the Krogan from trying to destroy everyone else. If the krogan stopped killing each other and focused on rebuilding their homeworld there would be alot more of them. We start to see that change in ME2, but only because the genophage exists and is forcing them to change. And even then it's only with Wrex at the head of Urdnot destroying any clan that doesn't get with the program.

The Genophage is a way of the Council to pardon themselves for putting the galaxy into the situation it was in against the Krogan.

Throughout the ME games how many times are Krogan given the benefit of the doubt? We see Krogan who are polite, poets (bad ones but still) and willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good but the only reaction to this is that they isolated cases and the Krogan species is still as bad as it ever was.

It's just like Wrex says in ME1. Many Krogan end up going to war/become Mercs because they see no reason not to. Just like everyone expects young Asari to be dancers, everyone expects Krogan to be mindless brutes. Both species play up to the stereotype but the Krogan do so because they have no reason not to.

It's portrayed that most if not all Krogan see the Genophage as a slow extinction weapon. Regardless of that's the case, the species as a whole appear to believe it. This creates a fatalism attitude and limtis the chance for their society to grow and mature.

It also creates a self-fullfilling prophercy. No one wants to give the Krogan a chance and treats them like nothing more than killers and barbarians. The Krogan believe the Genophage is slowing killing them, knows that no one with the power to help them is willing to do so and therefore don't bother trying to apease people who aren't interested in anything but their own perspective.

[remydat]

Sorry I talked to Eve and listened to her opinion of all the other females. War is not all they are. Post ending and with Wreav as leader Eve and the famels oppose him.

[Bardox9]

The "they see no reason not to" explanation of the Krogan decline is the worst argument I've ever heard. They are going extinct. If that's not a reason to alter course I don't know what is. In the last 1,400 years none of them has walked past one of their "piles of children that never lived" and not seen a reason not to kill each other over a pile of rubble on Tuchanka???

And the females have had 2,000 years to try to take control away from the males. The males have done nothing but become more agressive and selfish. The best the females have been able to do is isolate the fertile ones and use them as bargining chips when they want something. That is what their resisting the males has accomplished.

Modifié par Bardox9, 06 mai 2013 - 03:19 .

[remydat]

Dalatross - We uplifted the Krogan to do one thing.  Wage War.  It is all they know because IT IS ALL WE WANTED THEM TO KNOW.


So let's see, you admit you uplifted them and made sure they only knew about war.  You then gave all of them the exact same disease and now you them to magically overcome the psychological torture of the the genophage by themselves. 

Can you find an example in human history where all the people suffering the same psychological trauma were just put together and then expected to cure themselves with no intervention/guidance from any therapist or professional.  It doesn't happen because such a course of action would be f**king stupid.  Even AA requires sponsors and other people who have either already beaten the afflication or never had it to establish the process.

And the women have little power because they are Sterile.  Eve makes this clear.  One of the bonuses of curing the genophage is that the women who don't want war will have the power and leverage to have their voice heard because they control having babies.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 03:33 .

[Morlath]

Bardox9 wrote...

The "they see no reason not to" explanation of the Krogan decline is the worst argument I've ever heard. They are going extinct. If that's not a reason to alter course I don't know what is. In the last 1,400 years none of them has walked past one of their "piles of children that never lived" and not seen a reason not to kill each other over a pile of rubble on Tuchanka???

And the females have had 2,000 years to try to take control away from the males. The males have done nothing but become more agressive and selfish. The best the females have been able to do is isolate the fertile ones and use them as bargining chips when they want something. That is what their resisting the males has accomplished.

I'll quote here what I put in the "Betraying the Krogan" thread.

"There is a biological difference between being unable to concieve/trouble concieving and being unable to carry full term. They are biologically different (although sometimes connected) events that
medically need to be treated in different ways.

They impact a society in two completely seperate outcomes. A species which is used to a high birthrate can adapt to a sudden drop in birth rate with minimal mental and social scaring. Females who were used to giving brith to
hundreds/thousands of young in their lifetime will get used to only doing tens/hundreds. This transition is made easier by the species-wide effect of the Genophage.

However if the effect is on the viability of the birth and the ability to carry full term it is a far more painful and difficult thing to overcome. A sentient female who "should" be able to give birth to hundreds of young in her life now has
to risk potentially hundreds of miscarriages and stillborns in order to provide tens of children. Each miscarriage or loss of a child creates new psychological scarring. Females who appear unable to produce children or cannot handle the emotional impact of such a loss become, effectively, useless to the species that is biologically designed to reproduce at a massive rate.

You do not ask females of any species to "just deal with" the fact that their bodies are seemingly betrying the most singular design of their genetic makeup. You do not ask a society to handle thousands of miscarriages and stillbirths through hundreds of years and dance to the social tune of the people who inflicted this horror upon them."

The psychological effects of the Genophage are ignored far too easily as far as I can see both in-game and in these threads.

Modifié par Morlath, 06 mai 2013 - 03:48 .

[Bardox9]

It's not ignored or over looked. It's the whole point. The Genophage was meant to force a sociological shift in the Krogan since they refused to do so on their own. Their high birth rate made their population unsustainable. Instead of reducing the number of births they expanded out of control. The Genophage was never meant to be a punishment. It was meant to create a mind set like Wrex's. Focus less on domination of the galaxy and more on making a sustainable population.

In ME1 Wrex even explains his reasoning for being against going to war. "We don't have the numbers to goto war. And even if we did, the Genophage made sure we couldn't replenish our numbers fast enough." Wrex is the direct, and most likely desired, effect of the genophage. His ideas in ME2 will lead to a better future for the krogan and the galaxy as a whole. The other clans only follow his lead because of the genophage. Without it his plans are worthless and his power base crumbles.

For those continuing to believe that Eve will get all 2 billion females to snap their legs together if the male push for galactic war, keep in mind that for 1,400 years their entire existance was to try and make babies and not get kidnapped in a raid. Now you want to tell them "You are now able to give birth. That which has been lcausing your still borns and miscarages is gone.... but you are not allowed to have children because our men are stupid." Does anyone really think the males are the only ones that want revenge??

Modifié par Bardox9, 13 mai 2013 - 06:17 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Bardox9 wrote...

It's not ignored or over looked. It's the whole point. The Genophage was meant to force a sociological shift in the Krogan since they refused to do so on their own. Their high birth rate made their population unsustainable. Instead of reducing the number of births they expanded out of control. The Genophage was never meant to be a punishment. It was meant to create a mind set like Wrex's. Focus less on domination of the galaxy and more on making a sustainable population.

In ME1 Wrex even explains his reasoning for being against going to war. "We don't have the numbers to goto war. And even if we did, the Genophage made sure we couldn't replenish our numbers fast enough." Wrex is the direct, and most likely desired, effect of the genophage. His ideas in ME2 will lead to a better future for the krogan and the galaxy as a whole. The other clans only follow his lead because of the genophage. Without it his plans are worthless and his power base crumbles.

For those continuing to believe that Eve will get all 2 billion females to snap their legs together if the male push for galactic war, keep in mind that for 1,400 years their entire existance was to try and make babies and not get kidnapped in a raid. Now you want to tell them "You are now able to give birth. That which has been lcausing your still borns and miscarages is gone.... but you are not allowed to have children because our men are stupid." Does anyone really think the males are the only ones that want revenge??

THIS.

Every female is fertile after the cure. If Wreav can't get Eve to fall in line, he'll find another one who will. Ironically, Wrex built his whole power base by seizing control of access to fertile females. Curing the genophage undermines that.

There has been no general cultural shift among the Krogan. Despite being a prominent clan leader, Wrex is very much an outlier. Perhaps Krogan society's emphasis on obedience has a greater effect than I, personally, would give it credit. Somehow, I don't think Krogan would resort to underhanded tactics like poison (as Garrus suggests) to usurp Wrex, but all the same, Wrex is just one person among many. What will the Krogan turn into when he no longer holds the reins?

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

It's not ignored or over looked. It's the whole point. The Genophage was meant to force a sociological shift in the Krogan since they refused to do so on their own. Their high birth rate made their population unsustainable. Instead of reducing the number of births they expanded out of control. The Genophage was never meant to be a punishment. It was meant to create a mind set like Wrex's. Focus less on domination of the galaxy and more on making a sustainable population.

In ME1 Wrex even explains his reasoning for being against going to war. "We don't have the numbers to goto war. And even if we did, the Genophage made sure we couldn't replenish our numbers fast enough." Wrex is the direct, and most likely desired, effect of the genophage. His ideas in ME2 will lead to a better future for the krogan and the galaxy as a whole. The other clans only follow his lead because of the genophage. Without it his plans are worthless and his power base crumbles.

For those continuing to believe that Eve will get all 2 billion females to snap their legs together if the male push for galactic war, keep in mind that for 1,400 years their entire existance was to try and make babies and not get kidnapped in a raid. Now you want to tell them "You are now able to give birth. That which has been lcausing your still borns and miscarages is gone.... but you are not allowed to have children because our men are stupid." Does anyone really think the males are the only ones that want revenge??

THIS.

Every female is fertile after the cure. If Wreav can't get Eve to fall in line, he'll find another one who will. Ironically, Wrex built his whole power base by seizing control of access to fertile females. Curing the genophage undermines that.

There has been no general cultural shift among the Krogan. Despite being a prominent clan leader, Wrex is very much an outlier. Perhaps Krogan society's emphasis on obedience has a greater effect than I, personally, would give it credit. Somehow, I don't think Krogan would resort to underhanded tactics like poison (as Garrus suggests) to usurp Wrex, but all the same, Wrex is just one person among many. What will the Krogan turn into when he no longer holds the reins?

Truthfully, I don't think the writers thought that far ahead. I think the "Shepard Messiah" mindset was far to central to the writing. As if every choice Shepard makes falls perfectly into place.

[Bardox9]

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

It's not ignored or over looked. It's the whole point. The Genophage was meant to force a sociological shift in the Krogan since they refused to do so on their own. Their high birth rate made their population unsustainable. Instead of reducing the number of births they expanded out of control. The Genophage was never meant to be a punishment. It was meant to create a mind set like Wrex's. Focus less on domination of the galaxy and more on making a sustainable population.

In ME1 Wrex even explains his reasoning for being against going to war. "We don't have the numbers to goto war. And even if we did, the Genophage made sure we couldn't replenish our numbers fast enough." Wrex is the direct, and most likely desired, effect of the genophage. His ideas in ME2 will lead to a better future for the krogan and the galaxy as a whole. The other clans only follow his lead because of the genophage. Without it his plans are worthless and his power base crumbles.

For those continuing to believe that Eve will get all 2 billion females to snap their legs together if the male push for galactic war, keep in mind that for 1,400 years their entire existance was to try and make babies and not get kidnapped in a raid. Now you want to tell them "You are now able to give birth. That which has been lcausing your still borns and miscarages is gone.... but you are not allowed to have children because our men are stupid." Does anyone really think the males are the only ones that want revenge??

THIS.

Every female is fertile after the cure. If Wreav can't get Eve to fall in line, he'll find another one who will. Ironically, Wrex built his whole power base by seizing control of access to fertile females. Curing the genophage undermines that.

There has been no general cultural shift among the Krogan. Despite being a prominent clan leader, Wrex is very much an outlier. Perhaps Krogan society's emphasis on obedience has a greater effect than I, personally, would give it credit. Somehow, I don't think Krogan would resort to underhanded tactics like poison (as Garrus suggests) to usurp Wrex, but all the same, Wrex is just one person among many. What will the Krogan turn into when he no longer holds the reins?

Truthfully, I don't think the writers thought that far ahead. I think the "Shepard Messiah" mindset was far to central to the writing. As if every choice Shepard makes falls perfectly into place.

The OP asks us to place ourselve in the ME universe. Assume the Turians, Salarians, Asari, Krogan, etc are real and not just some random thing a writer pulled out of his butt.
 
Just going by the lore of the Genophage's creation and implementation, as described in ME1-3, it was designed not to simply end a war but to stabilze the Krogan's population. The Krogan refused to place restriction on themselves in regards to birth rates to keep their race at a sustainable level. The course the Krogan were on would have lead to not only their extinction, but the extinction of every race. For self-preservation AND the preservation of the Krogan, the Genophage was created.

The Krogan would no longer be a threat to galactic society and they would have time to socially evolve to the point the Genophage would no longer be needed. The only reason the Salarians, again assuming the Salarians are real and would have thought about this, is to give the Krogan time to come to understand their ancestors mistake and realize that breeding and expanding out of control will inevitably lead to self-destruction. The Krogans continued existance is quite literally due to being infected by the Genophage.

A krogan leader with Wrex's ME2 mindset is what was needed to stabilse the population, but at the time of the genophage's creation there was no leader with such a mindset. Even at the time of ME3 the bulk of the Krogan only followed Wrex because his plans were the best option in preventing their races extinction. Without the Genophage that influence no longer exists. The idea that Eve could convince 1 billion women to snap their legs closed because the other clans insist on going to war is just moronic. Does anyone really think that a female that has never produced a live baby would agree to not have any now that she would be able to have as many as she could possibly want just because Eve told her "No"????

If there were as many Wrex type Krogan asn there were Wreave type Krogan, I would say that it was time for the cure, but that is simply not the case. Mordin creates the cure. Great, but just because you can cure the Genophage doesn't mean you should. Looking at their present culture and their history,  THEY ARE NOT READY FOR A CURE. One day they will be, but that day is not today. It may not come for another hundred years, but it will come. Wrex is proof of that... if you don't kill him on Virmir that is.

[Skvindt]

I cured it in one of my play-throughs. But most of the time, and the decision I would take if this was a real situation, would be not to cure it.

While Wrex and Eve are potentially good influences, they are just two Krogan. They could very well lose power after a genophage cure. Krogan like Wreave are concerning. And what other Krogan I have seen in the game seems to suggest some bloody conflict in the future.

So, sadly, no. I would not cure it.

[LiarasShield]

I would still cure the genophage I couldn't doom or kill a entire race of because of what they've done in the past or what they might do I believe people can change or improve and I believe eve and wrex will lead the krogan to a brighter future so I would still cure the genophage

[Bardox9]

LiarasShield wrote...

I would still cure the genophage I couldn't doom or kill a entire race of because of what they've done in the past or what they might do I believe people can change or improve and I believe eve and wrex will lead the krogan to a brighter future so I would still cure the genophage

Sabotaging the Genophage, and indeed the Genophage itself, does not drive the Krogan to extintion. The only reason their race is dwendling is because they are killing each other faster than they can have new children. Their own violent nature is what's killing them. They've had 1,400 years to change and the only sociological change is a direct result of the Genophage.

If Eve had the ability to dowhat she is suggesting then why hasn't the female clan done something like this already? Eve is only important because she is the only krogan in the galaxy that is not infected by the genophage. Once every female is cured then she isn't special anymore. Wreave or those like him can just kill her and any female that sides with her if they become a problem. There are over 1 billion females on Tuchanka. If even 1% share the desire for revenge, as most of the males do, they will be able to birth 10 billion infants in the first year alone. Beside, I think Eve is just telling Shepard what we all want to hear to ensure the Genophage is cured. That is all that really matters to her IMO.

Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the Krogan are ready for a cure. Maybe they will march into a new golden age. I would just like to see some proof of that before we give the Krogan what they need to create an infinite number of killing machines. Make all the promises you want, but SHOW ME SOMETHING! The genophage is the key to Wrex's power. The Genophage is why other krogan listen to Eve. Without it, the culture returns power to who ever has the biggest gun.

Modifié par Bardox9, 02 juin 2013 - 06:18 .