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[elegolas1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

Yes, I would cure it.
Wrex in charge, Bakara by his side, and the Krogan will have a bright future - I know I can trust the two of them.

Why?

While Wrex unifies the Krogan momentarily on the basis of 'hey, I'm awesome, I cured the genophge and we're at war', that's not a recipe for permanent unification: that's a momentary stimulus. Gratitude only goes so far, until the Krogan culture likewise applies to the divisions. What basis will Wrex still be in charge of all Krogan?


Wrex's political structure in ME2, while admirable, was dependent on the genophage. Krogan didn't obey Wrex because they liked him or his ideas: Krogan followed Wrex because he gave best access to the scarce resource of breeding. Wrex controlled access to females, females were incredibly important, and Wrex was able to leverage that importance into policy. Not everyone liked it, but they didn't need to: the genophage held their future hostage to Wrex's influence. Over time, perhapse they would internalize a few years of reform.

Curing the genophage destroys that entire system.

First, a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.

Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.

Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.

Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.

Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.



The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

Exactly. 10/10
I put it in the OP, i hope you don't mind

Modifié par elegolas1, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:33 .

[elegolas1]

DRTJR wrote...

Yes, It was a mistake to modify the Genophage to return to the 1 in a 1000 numbers, the Krogan are ready to accept the burdens of a space faring species.

Why was it a mistake? How are the Krogan ready?

[Zardoc]

The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

And for a culture change to happen they need a cure for the Genophage.

[elegolas1]

Zardoc wrote...

The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

And for a culture change to happen they need a cure for the Genophage.

not true
What about Wrex on tuchunka?  He was creating a cultural change. a united krogan people, the united clans. How is that not a positive cultural change?
How will the genophage improve the Krogan? All it will do is increase the population to epidemic levels.

[Reorte]

Faced with the Reapers and the desperate need for allies? Yes. Lesser of two evils.At any other time? Probably not, at least until Wrex has been in power for long enough to demonstrate that he really has managed to change them and persuade them to not go on a population increase. His behaviour with Eve suggests that that's not too likely.

[elegolas1]

Reorte wrote...

Faced with the Reapers and the desperate need for allies? Yes. Lesser of two evils.At any other time? Probably not, at least until Wrex has been in power for long enough to demonstrate that he really has managed to change them and persuade them to not go on a population increase. His behaviour with Eve suggests that that's not too likely.

True and true

[Adanu]

Reality is fear.

[Baronesa]

Would I cure the Genophage?

Hell yes

[LordMilitantAlex]

As the Salarian STG operative in the base on Sur'kesh put it. Evolution should decide the fate of a race, not galatic politics.

[ld1449]

If the reapers were never around No. Too much risk.

With the reapers, yes. By not doing it I would be condeming the Krogan to extinction with how many would die fighting reaper forces.

[Baronesa]

elegolas1 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Yes, It was a mistake to modify the Genophage to return to the 1 in a 1000 numbers, the Krogan are ready to accept the burdens of a space faring species.

Why was it a mistake? How are the Krogan ready?

Who are you to decide who is ready or not?


Scared about population overgrow?

Introduce something simple... a tiny little idea... it is called...


BIRTH CONTROL


I know... I know...

It is not like all species have means to control their population by mere education and different types of birth control...  oh wait...

Modifié par Baronesa, 22 juillet 2012 - 01:10 .

[CyberEwan]

In a perfect world, I would most likely 'pull a Mordin' and release a modified version of the Genophage. This would be less extreme than the original genophage, but still leave some control (giving the Krogan similar birthrates to humans.) However, if it was only down to the two choices we're given, and Wrex and Eve are alive, I would cure it. It could cause problems down the line, but we can't lead to the near genocide of an entire species because of what MIGHT happen. And if it does cause a problem, we'll deal with it when we get there.

[robertthebard]

elegolas1 wrote...

Imagine you live in the mass effect universe and you are given the choice to cure the genophage. Would you do it?

I would not. The genophage allows for a sustainable Krogan population. Cure the genophage and the Krogan population would grow to epidemic numbers.

For those of you who argue that with Wrex and Eve, they would cure the genophage, I give you Dean the Young

In the words of Dean the Young:

Wrex's political structure in ME2, while admirable, was dependent on the genophage. Krogan didn't obey Wrex because they liked him or his ideas: Krogan followed Wrex because he gave best access to the scarce resource of breeding. Wrex controlled access to females, females were incredibly important, and Wrex was able to leverage that importance into policy. Not everyone liked it, but they didn't need to: the genophage held their future hostage to Wrex's influence. Over time, perhapse they would internalize a few years of reform.

Curing the genophage destroys that entire system.

No.  Curing the Genophage actually cements Wrex as the one that managed to get it cured after 1500 or so years of enduring it.  Since the Krogan, like the Asari, can live for 1,000 years, it would do more to help, than hurt his position.

First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.

So the importance of actually saving, according to the Krogan, their species would suddenly mean nothing because now they are saved?  That's a pretty narrow view, and suprisingly inaccurate.  According to Christian "mythology", Christ died to save man from his sins, and this didn't diminish his importance to that society, but elevated him to Godhood. 

Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.

...and yet, despite Tuchanka being in nuclear winter, and the genophage, they have managed to survive anyway.  So if one in 1,000 females disagrees, and reproduces, they are left exactly where they are now.  If that number varies somewhat, it's still not going to equate to being a bad thing.  It seems that, despite their propencity for reproduction, and longevity, before the Salarians and Turians interferred in their natural evolutionary cycle, they were doing just fine on their own.  Sorry, I don't see the logic in continueing to allow the Krogan to suffer for Salarian/Turian "crimes". 

Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.

You seem to think that it would only take her a year to accomplish something, or a very short timespan at any rate.  Here's the problem with this logic, basic genetics as we understand them.  Inbreeding is bad.  What is the gestation period?  How long until they reach sexual maturity?  When do we end up with dads breeding with daughters?

Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.

See above. 

Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was  needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.



The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

Which brings me back to my first point, again.  Wrex will be seen, along with Bakara, as the savior of their people.  It's taken over 1,000 years to get the genophage cured.  So you think that, despite examples in our own historical records that people that are elevated as saviors will simply be disregarded because they can make babies more often?

[kilgh]

I would cure the genophage because it's morally wrong to me.

Plus it's a huge universe so population shouldn't be a issue. Also if they are incapable of being peaceful, they have shown themselves to be just as likely to go to war with each other.

Also, the Milky Way just took a huge hit population-wise. They need more citizens. Who's going to rebuild it all?

It will be a few generations before anyone is going to be capable of going to war. And this time the Krogan will have more respect for their enemy after they were so comprehensively tamed last time.

[The Angry One]

No, it is inevitable that Krogan will kill other organics. So we should cure the genophage so Krogan will go out of control and kill other organics before Krogan cure the genophage and kill other organics.

It's the only solution.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well what I would do depends on the situation, as always.

If you want a counter-argument, OP, my take is that Wrex/Eve is just about an ideal situation for a genophage cure: (1) the krogan are unified under a non-aggressive leader (2) the females are empowered behind one of their own, (3) and the war will allow for them an opportunity to rebuild. If not cured, however, none of this matters.

I can elaborate more, but for now that's it.

[Tealjaker94]

Yes because Wrex is awesome.

[AresKeith]

if Wrex and Bakara is in charge, yes
If Wreav is in charge and Bakara is alive, maybe
and If Wreav is the only one in charge, NO

[Fauxnormal]

First, it's not your place to decide how a race should survive and breed.

Second, it's not your place to try and control a population.

Third, it's not your right to dictate the lives of an entire race and if they are or are not allowed to thrive.

Fourth, you have absolutly no way of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt anything negative will happen.

Fifth, yes. I would. Because the genopage was wrong, stupid, and was the ENTIRE REASON WHY THE KROGAN ARE HATEFUL in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zardoc wrote...

The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.

And for a culture change to happen they need a cure for the Genophage.

Except Wrex's reforms disprove that: Wrex engineered a rise of reformists with the controlled breeding system. That's why Uvenk was in a position to make a power play with Grunt in the first place.

The reformist agenda, however, relies on Wrex's reforms to be advanced... and Wrex's reforms rely on controlled breeding. Without a need for reform, or an impetus to enforce it on skeptics, a genophage cure only subverts a positive culture change.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...


No.  Curing the Genophage actually cements Wrex as the one that managed to get it cured after 1500 or so years of enduring it.  Since the Krogan, like the Asari, can live for 1,000 years, it would do more to help, than hurt his position.[/quote]Except 'gratitude' is a poor basis for any enduring fealty or obedience. Wrex has a temporary, not permentant, reprieve, but the Krogan population danger is an indefinite problem. It might be in ten, or a hundred years, but Wrex won't live on the success of the genophage cure for long when the vast majority of the Krogan population never experienced it.


[quote]
[quote]

First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.[/quote]

So the importance of actually saving, according to the Krogan, their species would suddenly mean nothing because now they are saved?  That's a pretty narrow view, and suprisingly inaccurate.  According to Christian "mythology", Christ died to save man from his sins, and this didn't diminish his importance to that society, but elevated him to Godhood.  [/quote]That... has nothing to do with the point, actually, and can easily be twisted into something contrary to what you were probably intending.

The Reforms were brought about because only a few marginally fertile females existed. Small groups are both easier to secure, and bring about to relatively unanimous agreement. As you expand a group, however, the chance for schisms rises as well.

Female fertility,, and the lack of it, was the fact that bound the clans together under Wrex while he initiated reforms.



[quote]
[quote]

Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.[/quote]

...and yet, despite Tuchanka being in nuclear winter, and the genophage, they have managed to survive anyway.  So if one in 1,000 females disagrees, and reproduces, they are left exactly where they are now.  If that number varies somewhat, it's still not going to equate to being a bad thing.  It seems that, despite their propencity for reproduction, and longevity, before the Salarians and Turians interferred in their natural evolutionary cycle, they were doing just fine on their own.  Sorry, I don't see the logic in continueing to allow the Krogan to suffer for Salarian/Turian "crimes".[/quote]Then you don't see the actual problem: the Krogan were not a galactic-scale threat without the genophage when they were trapped on Tuchanka because they were trapped on Tuchanka. Quite frankly, they couldn't spread, and their problem of overpopulation was confined to one planet where they were kept in check because the planet was dangerous and barren enough to kill the excess. They weren't 'doing just fine,' they were held in check by a hostile environment and limited resources.

The space age changes that. With the return of technology the Krogan can not only better survive Tuchanka, but they can escape it. They can go to environments not capable of constraining them and grow to dangerous, competing proportions... which they did before.

[quote]
  [quote]

Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.[/quote]

You seem to think that it would only take her a year to accomplish something, or a very short timespan at any rate.  Here's the problem with this logic, basic genetics as we understand them.  Inbreeding is bad.  What is the gestation period?  How long until they reach sexual maturity?  When do we end up with dads breeding with daughters?
[/quote]The time span doesn't need to be a year, but a relatively short period of time (a decade) is enough to start a major Krogan population: you can listen to EDI if you don't believe me.

The 'one fertile female' is a traditional minimal-necessity colonization scenario: inbreeding is bad in the long run, but it doesn't stop a population from forming. A splinter faction wouldn't need to be inbreeding anyway.

[quote]
[quote]

Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.[/quote]

See above. [/quote]What you typed above has nothing to do with maintaining a restriction system in which everyone has a reason to break it.


[quote]
[quote]

Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was  needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.



The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.



[/quote]
Which brings me back to my first point, again.  Wrex will be seen, along with Bakara, as the savior of their people.  It's taken over 1,000 years to get the genophage cured.  So you think that, despite examples in our own historical records that people that are elevated as saviors will simply be disregarded because they can make babies more often?[/quote]...looking at our history of heroes, saviors, messiahs, and other heralded figures and how much they really dictated later events, I'd be a fool not to say that. Christians hardly became pacifists after Jesus, and that's just picking the low-hanging fruit.

1000 years of the genophage is an argument to engage in prolific breeding.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:57 .

[DPSSOC]

Joccaren wrote...
Yes, I would cure it.
Wrex in charge, Bakara by his side, and the Krogan will have a bright future - I know I can trust the two of them. Forcing the slow genocide of an entire species on the idea that they might rebel is a seriously ****ty thing to do IMO.

The genophage does not force a slow genocide on the Krogan, it was designed such that it would still allow for population growth on par with the other species.  The Krogan refusal to adapt to the genophage (until Wrex) is what's killing them.  The fact that they still see glory only in combat is killing them, the fact that they send their children to face death as a rite of passage is killing them, and the fact they continue to fight amongst themselves in wars of anihilation is what's killing them.

Baronesa wrote...
Who are you to decide who is ready or not?

Scared about population overgrow?

Introduce something simple... a tiny little idea... it is called...

BIRTH CONTROL

I know... I know...

It is not like all species have means to control their population by mere education and different types of birth control... oh wait...

Except you can't enforce birth control, you can't make the Krogan control their population growth through any means but the genophage, and they've demonstrated that they won't do it themselves.

Also, if I might be perfectly frank, the Krogan aren't that smart. It took nearly being wiped out, and centuries folowing a doomed culture for one of them, just one, to figure out they needed to change things.

[Wulfram]

Without a major cultural change, the Krogan are no major threat anyway. They can't build an economy capable of supporting a major fleet as a bunch of warring tribes. And without a fleet they can't be a power in their own right.

And I don't think it's morally supportable to deny a cure requested by the Krogan leader and people "for their own good".