During the reaper war I'd cure them in a second, Krogan multiply fast and serve as amazing shock troops whatever happens after the war dose not concern me then. If it's after the war I'd likely still do it , I believe the first genophage was entirely justified but once they naturally starting evolving past it stg should have let them be. Really even if Wrex and Eve can't control the krogan their still not a threat anymore.
The universe would already be weary of them and the combined force Humans/Asari/Turians/Salarians would readily beat any Korgan rebellions.Even if they were beating such an alliance you could just release another genophage.
Would you cure the genophage?
Débuté par
elegolas1
, juil. 22 2012 09:57
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#52
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 04:24
Cronotis
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Wulfram wrote...
Without a major cultural change, the Krogan are no major threat anyway. They can't build an economy capable of supporting a major fleet as a bunch of warring tribes. And without a fleet they can't be a power in their own right.
And I don't think it's morally supportable to deny a cure requested by the Krogan leader and people "for their own good".
So the better choice morally is to cure the genophage and let them kill each other of as adults since they can't build fleets of ships to get off world?
#53
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 04:30
Cronotis
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@ OP: No I would not cure the genophage.
Basically I agree with, well everything Mordin said in ME 2 abou the genophage reducing birth rates to allow for population growth, but not explosion.
Let's not forget that if Mordin survived Tutchanka (I know most people saved Wrex in ME 1) he still has the cure. Which means that alterations to the genophage or even a cure are post-war possibilities in this scenerio. I trust Mordin, anyone else might get it wrong.
Basically I agree with, well everything Mordin said in ME 2 abou the genophage reducing birth rates to allow for population growth, but not explosion.
Let's not forget that if Mordin survived Tutchanka (I know most people saved Wrex in ME 1) he still has the cure. Which means that alterations to the genophage or even a cure are post-war possibilities in this scenerio. I trust Mordin, anyone else might get it wrong.
#54
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 05:12
Mr.Pink
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The Genophage does not allow for a sustainable Krogan population. It reduces to the numbers they had pre uplift by the Salarians. There's a big difference, if the Krogan want a sustainable population, then the Genophage needs to be altered so that every 2 in 1000, or 1.5 in 1000 survive birth, because the Krogan are dying off prior to ME3.
#56
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 05:19
MB957
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yes..I would still cure it.
give those krogan some condoms and a few art books and they can re channel that energy elsewhere...say back into making a beautiful world like they had in the past....
give those krogan some condoms and a few art books and they can re channel that energy elsewhere...say back into making a beautiful world like they had in the past....
#57
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 05:31
Wulfram
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Cronotis wrote...
So the better choice morally is to cure the genophage and let them kill each other of as adults since they can't build fleets of ships to get off world?
The better choice morally is to cure the genophage and then let them succeed or fail on their own merits as a free people.
And perhaps to help them out with colonisation, since Tuchanka is a mess, though that's a harder sell when everyone's worlds have been trashed.
Modifié par Wulfram, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:31 .
#58
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 05:59
Sisterofshane
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Mr.Pink wrote...
The Genophage does not allow for a sustainable Krogan population. It reduces to the numbers they had pre uplift by the Salarians. There's a big difference, if the Krogan want a sustainable population, then the Genophage needs to be altered so that every 2 in 1000, or 1.5 in 1000 survive birth, because the Krogan are dying off prior to ME3.
The Genophage needs to be altered if we want the Krogan to survive exactly as they are, which is to say, a violent group of conquerers. The problem is not the Genophage - it's the Krogan culture. Despite the fact that they KNOW about the Genophage, they are still killing each other in archaeic rites, or they join mercenary groups to head off world and die without a thought as to needing to actually WORK together to ensure the survival of their species.
The salarians are smarter than we know. By making the target range so low that sustainable populations were HARD to obtain, they effectively had given the Krogan an ultimateum - change your culture, or die. We see the beginnings of this if Wrex is saved - creating safe zones for females, and forcing the clans to work together to protect the females (unifying them as a race). It's too bad the Reaper war came about, because they would have naturally changed over time to a point where the Genophage would be unneccessary.
Even in face of the Reapers, I think it would be important to note that curing the Genophage or not depends on if the Krogan are making the appropriate steps to deserve to have it cured, whether they will continue on this path (with Wrex and Eve alive I think there is a great chance for this), and whether you NEED the Genophage to be cured in order to defeat the Reapers.
#59
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:00
SuperVulcan
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DarthKilby wrote...
With Wrex and Eve in charge, yes. With Wrex and Eve dead, no.
#60
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:27
DPSSOC
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Mr.Pink wrote...
The Genophage does not allow for a sustainable Krogan population. It reduces to the numbers they had pre uplift by the Salarians. There's a big difference, if the Krogan want a sustainable population, then the Genophage needs to be altered so that every 2 in 1000, or 1.5 in 1000 survive birth, because the Krogan are dying off prior to ME3.
Which Wrex will point out in ME1 is their own damn fault.
"The genophage infected us, but it's not what's killing us."
#61
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:28
robertthebard
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[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]robertthebard wrote...
No. Curing the Genophage actually cements Wrex as the one that managed to get it cured after 1500 or so years of enduring it. Since the Krogan, like the Asari, can live for 1,000 years, it would do more to help, than hurt his position.[/quote]Except 'gratitude' is a poor basis for any enduring fealty or obedience. Wrex has a temporary, not permentant, reprieve, but the Krogan population danger is an indefinite problem. It might be in ten, or a hundred years, but Wrex won't live on the success of the genophage cure for long when the vast majority of the Krogan population never experienced it.
[quote]
[quote]
First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.[/quote]
So the importance of actually saving, according to the Krogan, their species would suddenly mean nothing because now they are saved? That's a pretty narrow view, and suprisingly inaccurate. According to Christian "mythology", Christ died to save man from his sins, and this didn't diminish his importance to that society, but elevated him to Godhood. [/quote]That... has nothing to do with the point, actually, and can easily be twisted into something contrary to what you were probably intending.
The Reforms were brought about because only a few marginally fertile females existed. Small groups are both easier to secure, and bring about to relatively unanimous agreement. As you expand a group, however, the chance for schisms rises as well.
Female fertility,, and the lack of it, was the fact that bound the clans together under Wrex while he initiated reforms.
[quote]
[quote]
Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.[/quote]
...and yet, despite Tuchanka being in nuclear winter, and the genophage, they have managed to survive anyway. So if one in 1,000 females disagrees, and reproduces, they are left exactly where they are now. If that number varies somewhat, it's still not going to equate to being a bad thing. It seems that, despite their propencity for reproduction, and longevity, before the Salarians and Turians interferred in their natural evolutionary cycle, they were doing just fine on their own. Sorry, I don't see the logic in continueing to allow the Krogan to suffer for Salarian/Turian "crimes".[/quote]Then you don't see the actual problem: the Krogan were not a galactic-scale threat without the genophage when they were trapped on Tuchanka because they were trapped on Tuchanka. Quite frankly, they couldn't spread, and their problem of overpopulation was confined to one planet where they were kept in check because the planet was dangerous and barren enough to kill the excess. They weren't 'doing just fine,' they were held in check by a hostile environment and limited resources.
The space age changes that. With the return of technology the Krogan can not only better survive Tuchanka, but they can escape it. They can go to environments not capable of constraining them and grow to dangerous, competing proportions... which they did before.
[quote]
[quote]
Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.[/quote]
You seem to think that it would only take her a year to accomplish something, or a very short timespan at any rate. Here's the problem with this logic, basic genetics as we understand them. Inbreeding is bad. What is the gestation period? How long until they reach sexual maturity? When do we end up with dads breeding with daughters?
[/quote]The time span doesn't need to be a year, but a relatively short period of time (a decade) is enough to start a major Krogan population: you can listen to EDI if you don't believe me.
The 'one fertile female' is a traditional minimal-necessity colonization scenario: inbreeding is bad in the long run, but it doesn't stop a population from forming. A splinter faction wouldn't need to be inbreeding anyway.
[quote]
[quote]
Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.[/quote]
See above. [/quote]What you typed above has nothing to do with maintaining a restriction system in which everyone has a reason to break it.
[quote]
[quote]
Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.
The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.
[/quote]
Which brings me back to my first point, again. Wrex will be seen, along with Bakara, as the savior of their people. It's taken over 1,000 years to get the genophage cured. So you think that, despite examples in our own historical records that people that are elevated as saviors will simply be disregarded because they can make babies more often?
[/quote]...looking at our history of heroes, saviors, messiahs, and other heralded figures and how much they really dictated later events, I'd be a fool not to say that. Christians hardly became pacifists after Jesus, and that's just picking the low-hanging fruit.
1000 years of the genophage is an argument to engage in prolific breeding.
[/quote]
...and the problem with that is what, exactly? Is it that we are empowered to determine how a sentient species develops, or if it can develop past artificial limitations set by us? Sure sounds a lot like:
Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable. Isn't it odd that you can use this very logic to justify condemning the Krogan to the Genophage, but decry SC's logic as unsustainable? After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
What you're saying is, it's perfectly acceptable to raise a species up to help us, but then to shut them down once they have outlived their usefulness. Isn't that some convenient morallity you have there? Now here's the kicker, not only do you feel it's perfectly justifiable to do so, but you feel it's perfectly justifiable to lie to them about it, so that you can gain some assets for your war. I do hope you're not debating against the morallity of SC's choices, because the choices you are furthering here are far worse than what he offers.
[quote]robertthebard wrote...
No. Curing the Genophage actually cements Wrex as the one that managed to get it cured after 1500 or so years of enduring it. Since the Krogan, like the Asari, can live for 1,000 years, it would do more to help, than hurt his position.[/quote]Except 'gratitude' is a poor basis for any enduring fealty or obedience. Wrex has a temporary, not permentant, reprieve, but the Krogan population danger is an indefinite problem. It might be in ten, or a hundred years, but Wrex won't live on the success of the genophage cure for long when the vast majority of the Krogan population never experienced it.
[quote]
[quote]
First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.[/quote]
So the importance of actually saving, according to the Krogan, their species would suddenly mean nothing because now they are saved? That's a pretty narrow view, and suprisingly inaccurate. According to Christian "mythology", Christ died to save man from his sins, and this didn't diminish his importance to that society, but elevated him to Godhood. [/quote]That... has nothing to do with the point, actually, and can easily be twisted into something contrary to what you were probably intending.
The Reforms were brought about because only a few marginally fertile females existed. Small groups are both easier to secure, and bring about to relatively unanimous agreement. As you expand a group, however, the chance for schisms rises as well.
Female fertility,, and the lack of it, was the fact that bound the clans together under Wrex while he initiated reforms.
[quote]
[quote]
Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.[/quote]
...and yet, despite Tuchanka being in nuclear winter, and the genophage, they have managed to survive anyway. So if one in 1,000 females disagrees, and reproduces, they are left exactly where they are now. If that number varies somewhat, it's still not going to equate to being a bad thing. It seems that, despite their propencity for reproduction, and longevity, before the Salarians and Turians interferred in their natural evolutionary cycle, they were doing just fine on their own. Sorry, I don't see the logic in continueing to allow the Krogan to suffer for Salarian/Turian "crimes".[/quote]Then you don't see the actual problem: the Krogan were not a galactic-scale threat without the genophage when they were trapped on Tuchanka because they were trapped on Tuchanka. Quite frankly, they couldn't spread, and their problem of overpopulation was confined to one planet where they were kept in check because the planet was dangerous and barren enough to kill the excess. They weren't 'doing just fine,' they were held in check by a hostile environment and limited resources.
The space age changes that. With the return of technology the Krogan can not only better survive Tuchanka, but they can escape it. They can go to environments not capable of constraining them and grow to dangerous, competing proportions... which they did before.
[quote]
[quote]
Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.[/quote]
You seem to think that it would only take her a year to accomplish something, or a very short timespan at any rate. Here's the problem with this logic, basic genetics as we understand them. Inbreeding is bad. What is the gestation period? How long until they reach sexual maturity? When do we end up with dads breeding with daughters?
[/quote]The time span doesn't need to be a year, but a relatively short period of time (a decade) is enough to start a major Krogan population: you can listen to EDI if you don't believe me.
The 'one fertile female' is a traditional minimal-necessity colonization scenario: inbreeding is bad in the long run, but it doesn't stop a population from forming. A splinter faction wouldn't need to be inbreeding anyway.
[quote]
[quote]
Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.[/quote]
See above. [/quote]What you typed above has nothing to do with maintaining a restriction system in which everyone has a reason to break it.
[quote]
[quote]
Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.
The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.
[/quote]
Which brings me back to my first point, again. Wrex will be seen, along with Bakara, as the savior of their people. It's taken over 1,000 years to get the genophage cured. So you think that, despite examples in our own historical records that people that are elevated as saviors will simply be disregarded because they can make babies more often?
[/quote]...looking at our history of heroes, saviors, messiahs, and other heralded figures and how much they really dictated later events, I'd be a fool not to say that. Christians hardly became pacifists after Jesus, and that's just picking the low-hanging fruit.1000 years of the genophage is an argument to engage in prolific breeding.
[/quote]
...and the problem with that is what, exactly? Is it that we are empowered to determine how a sentient species develops, or if it can develop past artificial limitations set by us? Sure sounds a lot like:
Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable. Isn't it odd that you can use this very logic to justify condemning the Krogan to the Genophage, but decry SC's logic as unsustainable? After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
What you're saying is, it's perfectly acceptable to raise a species up to help us, but then to shut them down once they have outlived their usefulness. Isn't that some convenient morallity you have there? Now here's the kicker, not only do you feel it's perfectly justifiable to do so, but you feel it's perfectly justifiable to lie to them about it, so that you can gain some assets for your war. I do hope you're not debating against the morallity of SC's choices, because the choices you are furthering here are far worse than what he offers.
#62
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:31
LoganofET
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I'd do it, first of all because the other option is lying to them, and that outcome guarantees violence as opposed to the threat of violence in the future. And I'd say lying to them come have some very negative affects on the future too, entire generations all across the Galaxy are going to look to Shepard's actions, and what will they learn? That it's okay to take advantage of dumber species?
#63
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:33
robertthebard
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Obviously, you don't trust Mordin. If you did, you would cure the Genophage, since Mordin believes that curing the Genophage is right given the current Galactic situation, and he will tell you so.Cronotis wrote...
@ OP: No I would not cure the genophage.
Basically I agree with, well everything Mordin said in ME 2 abou the genophage reducing birth rates to allow for population growth, but not explosion.
Let's not forget that if Mordin survived Tutchanka (I know most people saved Wrex in ME 1) he still has the cure. Which means that alterations to the genophage or even a cure are post-war possibilities in this scenerio. I trust Mordin, anyone else might get it wrong.
#64
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:34
KotorEffect3
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Yes I would cure it. Not going to condemn a race to extinction based on what might happen. Besides with the reapers showing up and considering a war with the reapers could last centuries having a good supply of Krogan shock troops can come in handy. Besides the Krogan can be a very good asset to have as an ally.
#65
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:35
DPSSOC
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robertthebard wrote...
After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
The Krogan will rebel because they'll have to. Removed from the natural limits of their environment (tech level has done this already) or the artificial limits of the genophage the Krogan population will grow to the point they'll eventually have to spread to other worlds. That's what led to the Krogan Rebellions in the first place. Their violent nature just makes it more likely they'll opt to take a planet with an established infrastructure rather than start up their own on an uninhabitted world.
#66
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:37
Normandy_Captain
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It depends on the situation:
reaper war with wrex and bakara: very unlikely
reaper war with wreave and bakara: Not a chance
reaper war with wreave: No thought about a cure
non reaper war with anyone: NO
reaper or non reaper war with mordin in the way: Yes. That is the only reason I cured the genophage. mordin is my 2nd favorite character in video games, so I couldn't shoot him.
reaper war with wrex and bakara: very unlikely
reaper war with wreave and bakara: Not a chance
reaper war with wreave: No thought about a cure
non reaper war with anyone: NO
reaper or non reaper war with mordin in the way: Yes. That is the only reason I cured the genophage. mordin is my 2nd favorite character in video games, so I couldn't shoot him.
#67
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:39
Zkyire
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elegolas1 wrote...
Imagine you live in the mass effect universe and you are given the choice to cure the genophage. Would you do it?
I would not. The genophage allows for a sustainable Krogan population. Cure the genophage and the Krogan population would grow to epidemic numbers.
For those of you who argue that with Wrex and Eve, they would cure the genophage, I give you Dean the Young
In the words of Dean the Young:
Wrex's political structure in ME2, while admirable, was dependent on the genophage. Krogan didn't obey Wrex because they liked him or his ideas: Krogan followed Wrex because he gave best access to the scarce resource of breeding. Wrex controlled access to females, females were incredibly important, and Wrex was able to leverage that importance into policy. Not everyone liked it, but they didn't need to: the genophage held their future hostage to Wrex's influence. Over time, perhapse they would internalize a few years of reform.
Curing the genophage destroys that entire system.
First,a setting where all female are fertile destroys the importance of any female in particular. When there are only a few fertile females, their breeding can be controlled and managed by a single force, but that no longer applies. While Eve might carry a great deal of influence and respect, even if Eve convinced nearly all female Krogan to limit themselves to small numbers of children, it would only take one female to disagree with her to begin to undo the entire system because that one uninhibited female could breed that many.
Second, breeding can't be controlled. While Eve makes the suggestion in a Wreave-galaxy that she and the female would refuse to breed, that isn't viable: one, it would only take one dissenter to strike a deal. Two, there's a thing called 'rape.' The best that can be hoped for, and indeed this is what Eve's suggestion amounts to in the Wreave context, is starting a civil war... but that's hardly been an absolute barrier for others.
Third, breeding restrictions would be unenforcable. It's a big galaxy, and the Krogan have nowhere near the infrastructure or institututions for that level of social control. Even if population booms were controlled on Tuchanka, all it would take is a single pregnant Krogan on a single ship running off to another world to escape any Wrex-government oversight. Given how much of the galaxy has never been explored, and how much of what has been surveyed isn't under constant surveilance, and it would be relatively trivial for a dissenter faction to escape and begin hyper-breeding elsewhere.
Fourth, everyone has an incentive to cheat and maximize their breeding. For influence, for power, for relative strength, every leader has an incentive to maximize the increase of their own power base. Small clans can stop being
small: large clans want to keep being large. Even if they formally agree not to, cheating they system is viable: 'miscounting' their broods, hiding them, or fudging the rules as much as possible. Systems in which everyone gains by cheating tend not to remain strong, if they were ever strong in the first place.
Fifth and finally, no one needs to listen to Wrex or Eve anymore. Wrex's system grew because Wrex was needed for access to breeding. Wrex can't control that access any more. Eve has influence out of respect, but it only takes a few disenters to undermine her influence and recreate the problem. Wrex and Eve can not stop all the the malefactors from escaping or spreading even if they were aware of all of them. Wrex and Eve might offer good, far-sighted
advice, but short-sighted parties can now operate freely.
The Krogan need a culture change before a Genophage change if they're to be viable neighbors. Curing the genophage now would destroy that.
I only cured the genophage cause it was the 'paragon' choice.
If real life? Not a hope in the seven hells. The Krogan are bloodthirsty and violent. If anything ever happened to Wrex/Eve (in game obviously nothing does, but in real life any accident could happen at any time) and with them gone? The Krogan are a galactic plague once again. Even if you beat the Reapers you'd just have another genocidal war on your hands.
If curing the genophage wasn't the 'paragon' choice; I'd have let them die.
#68
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:39
Kingthlayer
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If I lived in the Mass Effect universe, then I'd be a Krogan, so yes I would cure the Genophage. Death to Turians and Salarians.
#69
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:42
robertthebard
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Yes, because they are sentient beings only in that they know which end of a gun is supposed to be pointed at the enemy? /sarcasmDPSSOC wrote...
robertthebard wrote...
After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
The Krogan will rebel because they'll have to. Removed from the natural limits of their environment (tech level has done this already) or the artificial limits of the genophage the Krogan population will grow to the point they'll eventually have to spread to other worlds. That's what led to the Krogan Rebellions in the first place. Their violent nature just makes it more likely they'll opt to take a planet with an established infrastructure rather than start up their own on an uninhabitted world.
What you are saying here is that they are incapable of learning, despite the fact that they learned about things they had no previous knowledge of prior to the Salarians "raising" them. This is exactly why Wrex talks about petitioning the council for worlds to colonize, isn't it? Gee, I guess they are smarter than "Grunt shoot enemies until Grunt run out of thermalclips, then grunt smash with rocks". Unlike humans, that live an average of 80 years, Krogan can live for 1,000 years. Some of them will have had centuries of watching children being born dead to evaluate what got them there in the first place. I realize that this concept is easily lost on us short lived species, but it is no less valid than "it will happen because it has happened", which is, of course, bashed on an hourly basis by the community when it is applied by the SC.
#70
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:42
Lisa_H
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Without Eve and Wrex absolutely not, but I'm not sure I would do even if both of them were alive. They are just two out of millions of krogan
#71
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:45
KotorEffect3
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If any race needs to be kept in check it is the Salarians. The dalatross wanted to play politics while Palevan and Earth were burning. The Salarians are cunning and ruthless that makes them dangerous. Nothing like the threat of the Krogan to keep the salarians in check.
#72
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 06:58
DPSSOC
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robertthebard wrote...
Yes, because they are sentient beings only in that they know which end of a gun is supposed to be pointed at the enemy? /sarcasmDPSSOC wrote...
robertthebard wrote...
After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
The Krogan will rebel because they'll have to. Removed from the natural limits of their environment (tech level has done this already) or the artificial limits of the genophage the Krogan population will grow to the point they'll eventually have to spread to other worlds. That's what led to the Krogan Rebellions in the first place. Their violent nature just makes it more likely they'll opt to take a planet with an established infrastructure rather than start up their own on an uninhabitted world.
What you are saying here is that they are incapable of learning, despite the fact that they learned about things they had no previous knowledge of prior to the Salarians "raising" them. This is exactly why Wrex talks about petitioning the council for worlds to colonize, isn't it? Gee, I guess they are smarter than "Grunt shoot enemies until Grunt run out of thermalclips, then grunt smash with rocks". Unlike humans, that live an average of 80 years, Krogan can live for 1,000 years. Some of them will have had centuries of watching children being born dead to evaluate what got them there in the first place. I realize that this concept is easily lost on us short lived species, but it is no less valid than "it will happen because it has happened", which is, of course, bashed on an hourly basis by the community when it is applied by the SC.
How long has the genophage been a problem for the Krogan? 1,000 years? 1,500? In that whole time one, exactly one, Krogan had the bright idea to change how they operated. The Krogan are not incapable of learning they don't want to, the only reason they have, after all this time they are just starting, is because the genophage is forcing them to. Curing the genophage before the Wrex's reforms have taken hold and become the norm rather than radical takes away the one reason they had to change how they operate and they won't bother.
The Krogan live long lives, there are Krogan alive today who remember the glory days before the Rebellion, and they have demonstrated that with this long life comes slow change. The galaxy couldn't, and still can't, afford to wait on the Krogan's shallow learning curve.
#73
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 07:03
robertthebard
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...and yet, once the Genophage is cured, independant Krogan join, and continue to join the war effort, of their own accord. Another convenience that the galaxy can't afford to wait for, enough to justify lying to them about curing it? Enough to shoot Mordin to cover up the lie? Essentially it's "No, you can't have your cure, but we will surely take advantage of you being dumb enough to believe we cured it so that you'll kill off as many of your people as it takes to end the Reaper threat. After all, before you all figure out there's an issue, I'll be dead, and won't have to deal with a unified, very angry, Krogan army that rebels due to the deception". That's pretty logical there, I'd say...DPSSOC wrote...
robertthebard wrote...
Yes, because they are sentient beings only in that they know which end of a gun is supposed to be pointed at the enemy? /sarcasmDPSSOC wrote...
robertthebard wrote...
After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?
The Krogan will rebel because they'll have to. Removed from the natural limits of their environment (tech level has done this already) or the artificial limits of the genophage the Krogan population will grow to the point they'll eventually have to spread to other worlds. That's what led to the Krogan Rebellions in the first place. Their violent nature just makes it more likely they'll opt to take a planet with an established infrastructure rather than start up their own on an uninhabitted world.
What you are saying here is that they are incapable of learning, despite the fact that they learned about things they had no previous knowledge of prior to the Salarians "raising" them. This is exactly why Wrex talks about petitioning the council for worlds to colonize, isn't it? Gee, I guess they are smarter than "Grunt shoot enemies until Grunt run out of thermalclips, then grunt smash with rocks". Unlike humans, that live an average of 80 years, Krogan can live for 1,000 years. Some of them will have had centuries of watching children being born dead to evaluate what got them there in the first place. I realize that this concept is easily lost on us short lived species, but it is no less valid than "it will happen because it has happened", which is, of course, bashed on an hourly basis by the community when it is applied by the SC.
How long has the genophage been a problem for the Krogan? 1,000 years? 1,500? In that whole time one, exactly one, Krogan had the bright idea to change how they operated. The Krogan are not incapable of learning they don't want to, the only reason they have, after all this time they are just starting, is because the genophage is forcing them to. Curing the genophage before the Wrex's reforms have taken hold and become the norm rather than radical takes away the one reason they had to change how they operate and they won't bother.
The Krogan live long lives, there are Krogan alive today who remember the glory days before the Rebellion, and they have demonstrated that with this long life comes slow change. The galaxy couldn't, and still can't, afford to wait on the Krogan's shallow learning curve.
#74
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 07:05
robertthebard
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Let's not forget the lab facility on Sur'Kesh, where they're starting in on the next Krogan variant.KotorEffect3 wrote...
If any race needs to be kept in check it is the Salarians. The dalatross wanted to play politics while Palevan and Earth were burning. The Salarians are cunning and ruthless that makes them dangerous. Nothing like the threat of the Krogan to keep the salarians in check.
#75
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 07:05
Galbrant
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Yes, as long as they are force to adopt similar social laws as the Salarians concerning the Birth Rates. If a douche bag like Wreav is in charge take him out and put a female Krogan like Eve in charge. They already seen enough stillborn Krogan babies. Its time for them to no longer go through that kind of pain.
