340 réponses à ce sujet

[SSPBOURNE]

It worked out in the Extended cut ending, so why not?

[Anvos]

With Wrex and Eve, considering the reaper threat yes.  Lets face it with the cure Wrex and Eve are essentially the saviors of their people.  Plus if they do continue to be war like, either A. they will be fighting amongst themselves, or B. they won't have a strong enough spacefleet to do much.

Without reaper threat, I'd say semi yes. Not full on cure but start with seeing what happens if you weaken it down to 1 in 500.

Modifié par Anvos, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

...and the problem with that is what, exactly? 

The problem is that the Krogan have not been good neighbors in
the past, which is what led to the genophage, and don't show enough
signs that they'll be good neighbors in the future.

Is it that we are empowered to determine how a sentient species develops, or if it can develop past artificial limitations set by us?  Sure sounds a lot like.

It's more like 'we have a responsibility to ourselves not to make foreseeable problems that will kill our grandchildren, either wiping them out or forcing them to resort to drastic and even worse measures.'

Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable.  Isn't it odd that you can use this very logic to justify condemning the Krogan to the Genophage, but decry SC's logic as unsustainable?  After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?

Strawmen are strawmen, ignorring the factual innacuracies lying within your argument. If you paid attention, you'd probably find that I am not saying the genophage should never be changed, or that the Krogan should be wiped out.

What you're saying is, it's perfectly acceptable to raise a species up to help us, but then to shut them down once they have outlived their usefulness.  Isn't that some convenient morallity you have there?

No, because that's not what I'm saying.

Now here's the kicker, not only do you feel it's perfectly justifiable to do so, but you feel it's perfectly justifiable to lie to them about it, so that you can gain some assets for your war.  I do hope you're not debating against the morallity of SC's choices, because the choices you are furthering here are far worse than what he offers.

...and here's where you're just an inept reader who doesn't understand what he/she is actually arguing against.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

Cronotis wrote...

@ OP: No I would not cure the genophage.

Basically I agree with, well everything Mordin said in ME 2 abou the genophage reducing birth rates to allow for population growth, but not explosion.

Let's not forget that if Mordin survived Tutchanka (I know most people saved Wrex in ME 1) he still has the cure. Which means that alterations to the genophage or even a cure are post-war possibilities in this scenerio. I trust Mordin, anyone else might get it wrong.

Obviously, you don't trust Mordin.  If you did, you would cure the Genophage, since Mordin believes that curing the Genophage is right given the current Galactic situation, and he will tell you so.

Alternatively, you can convince Mordin that he was not mistaken and that the genophage was proper. After which he will thank you for stopping him from making another mistake.

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
After all, you are telling me that the Krogan will rebel, because they have rebelled, otherwise, why deny them the cure to an artificially inflicted genetic defect, brought about because Salarians and Turians needed their help to fight the Rachni?

The Krogan will rebel because they'll have to.  Removed from the natural limits of their environment (tech level has done this already) or the artificial limits of the genophage the Krogan population will grow to the point they'll eventually have to spread to other worlds.  That's what led to the Krogan Rebellions in the first place.  Their violent nature just makes it more likely they'll opt to take a planet with an established infrastructure rather than start up their own on an uninhabitted world.

Yes, because they are sentient beings only in that they know which end of a gun is supposed to be pointed at the enemy?  /sarcasm

What you are saying here is that they are incapable of learning, despite the fact that they learned about things they had no previous knowledge of prior to the Salarians "raising" them.  This is exactly why Wrex talks about petitioning the council for worlds to colonize, isn't it?  Gee, I guess they are smarter than "Grunt shoot enemies until Grunt run out of thermalclips, then grunt smash with rocks".  Unlike humans, that live an average of 80 years, Krogan can live for 1,000 years.  Some of them will have had centuries of watching children being born dead to evaluate what got them there in the first place.  I realize that this concept is easily lost on us short lived species, but it is no less valid than "it will happen because it has happened", which is, of course, bashed on an hourly basis by the community when it is applied by the SC.

Man, you suck at reading comprehension, don't you? The things you think you read...

[Dean_the_Young]

SSPBOURNE wrote...

It worked out in the Extended cut ending, so why not?

Except that, well, it didn't. Because the Extended Cut doesn't say what the long-term effects are.

[AlanC9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Alternatively, you can convince Mordin that he was not mistaken and that the genophage was proper. After which he will thank you for stopping him from making another mistake.

IIRC this requires a bad krogan leadership situation. So perhaps the answer to the question is "it depends."

Modifié par AlanC9, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[DPSSOC]

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, once the Genophage is cured, independant Krogan join, and continue to join the war effort, of their own accord.

Yes because never have opposing forces worked together in order to take on a greater threat, only for one to turn on the other as soon as the dust settles.  The Krogan help against the Reapers, I'm not denying that, however they have a vested interest in the Reapers being beaten.  What I and others are considering is what happens after the Reapers are gone, after the grand threat that brought the galaxy together is gone what happens to that unity?  What happens when after 10 or 20 years of breeding like rabbits the Krogan run out of room?  Give them colony rights on a world?  What happens when that's full?

robertthebard wrote...
Essentially it's "No, you can't have your cure, but we will surely take advantage of you being dumb enough to believe we cured it so that you'll kill off as many of your people as it takes to end the Reaper threat.  After all, before you all figure out there's an issue, I'll be dead, and won't have to deal with a unified, very angry, Krogan army that rebels due to the deception".

Again here's where you don't seem to understand the situation.  The Krogan's unity has only held because Wrex managed to convince other clan leaders of the benefits to his reforms, benefits that rely heavily on the continuation of the genophage.  Without the genophage his reforms cease to be beneficial, so he has nothing to bargain with to keep the krogan united and the krogan clans have no reason not to fall back into their old ways.  Krogan unity is a lot like a tornado, it's a terribly powerful thing but thankfully short lived.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:50 .

[Sajuro]

Aren't the Krogan killing themselves into extinction already? But yes, I would cure it.

[frostajulie]

In reality no I would not cure the genophage. Edi went over the reality of what a cure would mean. It was chilling. Luckily I can Rp several shepards who would and do cure the genophage. In General Shepard is always a better or worse person than I am.

[robertthebard]

Too many to quote w/out a multiquote functionality, so:

Yes, you are saying it's acceptable for us to play God with another species, because another species gave them things they shouldn't have had yet. If they decided to rebel, and wipe out the Salarians and Turians for inflicting the Genophage on them, I'd help them, as would my Shepards, every single one of them, for the exact same reason that I am going to war with the Reapers. "We are your salvation through destruction" seems to be a good reason to fight the Reapers, but 15 centuries of telling you that you'd be better off staying on your planet and breeding like rabbits to maintain a stable population than helping us fight the Reapers. Except that that won't work, since, thanks to the Salarians, they are now just as advanced tech wise as everyone else that has to worry about them. But, it's "Sorry about your bad luck, you don't deserve another chance, except we're going to pretend to offer you one so you'll help us".

You can SC logic me all you'd like, but I was so far from buying into his logic, and the logic of even getting to that point, that I don't play that part of the game any more. Sucks to be me, since I'll only have one character for subsequent play throughs, but that's on me. However, it's the same logic it uses for the choices. It's unacceptable there, but acceptable here, even though we never saw any of it. Nobody in your current crew, or in any of your previous crews saw the Rachni war, or the Krogan Rebellion first hand. Liara's grandparents might have, and were certainly alive then, as the Asari live that long, and history is written by the victors.

Justify it however it takes to help you sleep at night, but the Genophage is what has the current generation of Krogan out being mercs. That's the other point you can take away from Wrex's statement about what's killing them. There is nothing to live for at home, so they're out there doing what they have to do to bury resentment, and any other negative emotions they may have about not being able to bear children.

Since rebellion through overbreeding will be an issue, it's been stated as an absolute more than once, rebellion due to betrayal is too, either way condemning our children and grandchildren to the same fate as curing the Genophage alledgedly will. You don't have an option of altering it, it's cure it, or not. So any proposed "fixes" aren't proposed officially, and frankly you may well doom the Krogans to extinction, even if you find a way to beat the Reapers, from all the losses they will take fighting a war you tricked them into fighting.

[OchreJelly]

I don't think I could answer this without resorting to extreme metagaming. Knowing the end results makes it impossible to give a proper reply.

I just wish that there had been an option to "overcome" the genophage rather than outright curing it, convincing the krogan to "get over themselves" like some of the characters directly stated. In ME2, it felt like Grunt was going to play a major role in such a storyline in the future, but it was never mentioned again.

But, if Bioware wants it they can decide the krogan suddenly turn into flowers and dust pollen across their worlds on rainbow unicorns, all because someoned discovered krogan Riverdance. It's their story to tell, if it works out it works out.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[shodiswe]

I would cure it, they got a chance to prove the salarians wrong.

If they just can't coexist with everyone else then it's not a problem, they get stomped out by the rest of the galaxy.


In the control ending we got the reapers, the turians, salarians, Asari, humans, quarians, geth, and all the less combatant specis, would the Krogan win against that?

In destroy you can scrap the reapers and the geth, but still... In synthesis... umm... no idea what can happen in synthesis...

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

shodiswe wrote...

I would cure it, they got a chance to prove the salarians wrong.

If they just can't coexist with everyone else then it's not a problem, they get stomped out by the rest of the galaxy.


In the control ending we got the reapers, the turians, salarians, Asari, humans, quarians, geth, and all the less combatant specis, would the Krogan win against that?

In destroy you can scrap the reapers and the geth, but still... In synthesis... umm... no idea what can happen in synthesis...

Whether they can be beaten isn't the question: whether they can be beaten without significant cost is. The galaxy of ME1 and ME2 was still feeling the effects of the first rebellion.

Of course, can they be beaten is a far more open question in any non-control scenario because the galaxy can't unite to stomp the Krogan while they're small: the breaking of the relays gives everyone a period of isolation from eachother. By the time the next species reaches the Krogan, they may be too established to stop.


Only a Control scenario really promises to be able to stop them, but that's because the Reapers can stop everyone. At the same time, however, that's a retroactive argument.

[General User]

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

[robertthebard]

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

[General User]

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

But we need their help.  They only want a genopahge cure.  I'm not saying I'm one to feel good about lying to the krogan, but I'm morally flexible enough to put it down as necessary.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not a counter-argument to what he said, robert.

That too.

Modifié par General User, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

That's not a counter-argument to what he said, robert.

[robertthebard]

General User wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

But we need their help.  They only want a genopahge cure.  I'm not saying I'm one to feel good about lying to the krogan, but I'm morally flexible enough to put it down as necessary.

So you're morally flexible enough to choose destroy too, right?  Comes out as the same thing:  We need your help, oops, sorry, we're gonna have to doom you.

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

So you're morally flexible enough to choose destroy too, right?  Comes out as the same thing:  We need your help, oops, sorry, we're gonna have to doom you.

That's not the same thing. Nor is it necessarily his position.

His position can just as well be 'We need your help, but your price is too high.'

[Mr Cloud]

Of course I would cure the genophage, even if it was all about slapping salarians in the face. They uplifted krogans for their own purpouse, used them and then doomed. Krogans deserve a chance. Nuff said.

Modifié par Mr Cloud, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[General User]

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

But we need their help.  They only want a genopahge cure.  I'm not saying I'm one to feel good about lying to the krogan, but I'm morally flexible enough to put it down as necessary.

So you're morally flexible enough to choose destroy too, right?  Comes out as the same thing:  We need your help, oops, sorry, we're gonna have to doom you.

umm... yes?  I'm not really seeing what this has to do with the genophage being a proven effective pillar of galactic stability, or how nothing in ME3 can reasonably be expected to take it's place, but... sure.

[robertthebard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

That's not a counter-argument to what he said, robert.

Only because it's not an option at the conference, as far as I know.  The end result, however, is exactly what would happen, isn't it?  You'd gain Salarian support, since they are opposed to curing the Genophage for the exact same reasons listed here, but since gaining Krogan support is a stipulation to Turian support, and refusal to cure the Genophage means no Krogan support, you lose two allies to gain one.  Or, you be morally flexible enough to lie to your friend's face, and then possibly have to shoot Mordin too.

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

General User wrote...

The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.

To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.

Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it".  Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help.  Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians.  I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.

That's not a counter-argument to what he said, robert.

Only because it's not an option at the conference, as far as I know.

It's still not a counter-argument.

The end result, however, is exactly what would happen, isn't it? 

No. Not least because you're putting an opinion piece on your description of the 'end result.'

You'd gain Salarian support, since they are opposed to curing the Genophage for the exact same reasons listed here, but since gaining Krogan support is a stipulation to Turian support, and refusal to cure the Genophage means no Krogan support, you lose two allies to gain one.  Or, you be morally flexible enough to lie to your friend's face, and then possibly have to shoot Mordin too.

And you're once again not grasping what you're arguing against.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I think the krogan should figure out how to cure the genophage themselves, lazy buggers, do I have to do everything? Seriously though if they get themselves sorted with enough krogan scientists to research the genophage and come up with a cure, good for them, that would prove they are ready for it. If they aren't civilised enough to do that they aren't ready for a cure.

On a selfish note, I doubt there's credits in curing the genophage but the salarian dalatrass seems like a woman willing to make a deal.