Actually, I have a full grasp of what I'm argueing, the ending of 1,483 years of oppression by the Council planets for the Krogan Rebellion, and then having a Council representative knowingly deceive the Krogan about the cure in order to garner their support. Is this not the issue here? Am I missing something about how the Krogan view the Genophage? This is done simply to gain Salarian official support. So what am I missing? If you mean, by "missing" that I believe it truly is time to let the Krogan have another chance, then you're off base, aren't you? Here's an alternative for you, let them know, if you get out of hand, we do still have strains of the Genophage that we can re-release if we have to, and doesn't Mordin suggest as much to Wrex or Wreave in the truck on the way to the Shroud? So no, I don't think I'm missing anything.Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's still not a counter-argument.robertthebard wrote...
Only because it's not an option at the conference, as far as I know.Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not a counter-argument to what he said, robert.robertthebard wrote...
Then have some quads, and tell them that from the start instead of "Yeah, we'll help you cure it". Take it off the table, and don't ask them for help. Of course, you'll lose the Turians, but hey, you'll get the Salarians. I'm sure they'd make up for the Krogan and Turian assets.General User wrote...
The thing about the genophage is, no matter what else you might say about it, it well... worked. The genophage gave the galaxy 1000-odd years without a major threat from the krogan.
To simply remove a proven safeguard without having anything on-hand that can reasonably be expected to make a similar guarantee seems quite irresponsible to me.No. Not least because you're putting an opinion piece on your description of the 'end result.'The end result, however, is exactly what would happen, isn't it?
And you're once again not grasping what you're arguing against.You'd gain Salarian support, since they are opposed to curing the Genophage for the exact same reasons listed here, but since gaining Krogan support is a stipulation to Turian support, and refusal to cure the Genophage means no Krogan support, you lose two allies to gain one. Or, you be morally flexible enough to lie to your friend's face, and then possibly have to shoot Mordin too.
Would you cure the genophage?
#101
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 11:50
-
- Members
- 6 108 messages
Retour en haut
#102
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 11:50
-
- Members
- 2 838 messages
#103
Posté 22 juillet 2012 - 11:57
-
- Members
- 20 675 messages
No, it is not.robertthebard wrote...
Actually, I have a full grasp of what I'm argueing, the ending of 1,483 years of oppression by the Council planets for the Krogan Rebellion, and then having a Council representative knowingly deceive the Krogan about the cure in order to garner their support. Is this not the issue here?
Bar perhaps the date, simply because I'm not going to bother to check, most of that is outright wrong. The Krogan are demilitarized, not oppressed, the Dalatrass is not a Council representative, and that isn't the argument of anyone in this thread.
In so much that you're hitting the giant straw windmill you're tilting at, sure. It's pretty easy to hit targets you make up.Am I missing something about how the Krogan view the Genophage? This is done simply to gain Salarian official support. So what am I missing? If you mean, by "missing" that I believe it truly is time to let the Krogan have another chance, then you're off base, aren't you? Here's an alternative for you, let them know, if you get out of hand, we do still have strains of the Genophage that we can re-release if we have to, and doesn't Mordin suggest as much to Wrex or Wreave in the truck on the way to the Shroud? So no, I don't think I'm missing anything.
In so much that you're actually addressing what anyone else in this thread is actually saying, no.
That aside... more strands of the genophage aren't viable because the cure would just need to be re-adapted, rather than recreated. Mordin was saying he could have altered the genophage to kill them in the past, not that they can simply re-apply it in the future.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:58 .
#104
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:01
-
- Members
- 404 messages
What a lot of people seem to ignore is how incredibly silly it is to take the deal if Wrex is alive. You are assuming the krogan leader, who is clearly not a dimwit won't realize the cure didn't work. I mean really? You don't think the first few times krogans try to get pregnant before the war they won't realize the cure didn't work?
The sabotage means you'll try to trick the krogan into fighting with you on Earth anyway. And that's where it all falls apart, at the moment where you're deciding if you'll use the cure would you really want possibly uncontrolled army of krogans with you on Earth who found out they were used like tools just like with the Rachni?
Now, of course if you have Wrex he finds out of your sabotage, because how the hell wouldn't he, loses control of all clans, goes nuts on Shepard, dies, and the krogan are uncontrolled. If I remember correctly this results in the bloodthirsty bunch of the krogan killing turians they were previously helping on Palaven. That means no krogan support and a lot of the turian fleet dead. And it's not "metagaming", it's something quite likely knowing the krogan leader isn't a fool.
It's a reaper war, and personally I do believe it a stupid time to be deciding which race to "take out" incase they betray you afterwards, you're against the biggest threat the galaxy has faced, not the best time to cut your fleets in half because of what might happen.
Curing the genophage is a risk, maybe a damn big one. But sabotaging the cure with Wrex alive isn't a risk, it's pretty much certainty when you think of the possibilities. Best case scenario would be Wrex for some unfathonable reason not finding out, fights with allied forces on Earth, war is over and all hell breaks loose on Earth with already broken down forces of all species fighting there.
I'd also like to point out that if I really was in Shepard's place I'd actually try to get information about the topic, chatting up Mordin why it wouldn't be possible to get a modified version of the genophage with a less than 1000 birthrate, maybe trying to chat up Wrex if he really wants the genophage cured. Both attempts would most likely fail, but everything being either "support curing it" or "support genophage" I never got to even try.
And that's the practical reason why I wouldn't sabotage the cure with Wrex in charge, I'd rather have a grateful ally against the reapers and a possibility of things getting out of control afterwards over a VERY likely war with the krogan in middle of the reaper invasion and things being more peaceful afterwards (assuming you'd win anyway). And morally I do believe it a much better choice anyway over betraying a friend and basically killing the krogan as a race.
With Wreav, it's still a damn big risk to assume the krogan don't find out, but at that point I'd say sabotage is the safer road to take. Anyway, my point was it's not all about "I cured the genophage because of my morals" there are also practical reasons on it
TLDR: If you sabotage the cure with Wrex in charge you're either really short-sighted or metagaming. A war in middle of a reaper attack you are already struggling to win is evidently worse than something that "might happen" afterwards. Too bad no one will read this, and people will debate how genophage needs to be kept no matter what if it all happened in real life, thinking they are being practical in thinking that way. I disagree strongly.
Modifié par Razhathael, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .
#105
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:04
-
- Members
- 3 082 messages
If they're too stupid to use birth control wipe their asses out. It's not like the add anything worthwhile to the galaxy.
Modifié par The Twilight God, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .
#106
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:09
-
- Members
- 6 108 messages
Nor is the Dalatrass the one perpetrating the lie, Shepard is, and Shepard is a Spectre, a council representative. Demilitarized does not equal virtually sterile, if they were demilitarized, they wouldn't be wandering the galaxy armed. Demilitarize. I don't think I'm the one missing anything here.Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, it is not.robertthebard wrote...
Actually, I have a full grasp of what I'm argueing, the ending of 1,483 years of oppression by the Council planets for the Krogan Rebellion, and then having a Council representative knowingly deceive the Krogan about the cure in order to garner their support. Is this not the issue here?
Bar perhaps the date, simply because I'm not going to bother to check, most of that is outright wrong. The Krogan are demilitarized, not oppressed, and the Dalatrass is not a Council representative.In so much that you're hitting the giant straw windmill you're tilting at, sure. It's pretty easy to hit targets you make up.Am I missing something about how the Krogan view the Genophage? This is done simply to gain Salarian official support. So what am I missing? If you mean, by "missing" that I believe it truly is time to let the Krogan have another chance, then you're off base, aren't you? Here's an alternative for you, let them know, if you get out of hand, we do still have strains of the Genophage that we can re-release if we have to, and doesn't Mordin suggest as much to Wrex or Wreave in the truck on the way to the Shroud? So no, I don't think I'm missing anything.
In so much that you're actually addressing what anyone else in this thread is actually saying, no.
That aside... more strands of the genophage aren't viable because the cure would just need to be re-adapted, rather than recreated. Mordin was saying he could have altered the genophage to kill them in the past, not that they can simply re-apply it in the future.
As to what we're discussing, the topic title says "Would you cure the genophage?". My answer to that was "Yes I would, because I feel like they have suffered under it long enough to deserve another chance". Now, you don't feel that way. You think I'm wrong for feeling that way, and that's where I feel you are off base, trying to tell me how I should feel.
#107
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:21
-
- Members
- 5 327 messages
#108
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:25
-
- Members
- 20 675 messages
This I concede to.robertthebard wrote...
Nor is the Dalatrass the one perpetrating the lie, Shepard is, and Shepard is a Spectre, a council representative.
This i do not. Demilitarized takes many forms: for the Krogan, the terms allow for personal weapons but limited their navy and other weapons.Demilitarized does not equal virtually sterile, if they were demilitarized, they wouldn't be wandering the galaxy armed.[ Demilitarize.
Since these still aren't related to anything but your strawmen... yes, you still are.I don't think I'm the one missing anything here.
If you had half a wit to pay attention to what people actually say rather than your own imagined conversations, you'd realize that no one is telling you what you should feel.As to what we're discussing, the topic title says "Would you cure the genophage?". My answer to that was "Yes I would, because I feel like they have suffered under it long enough to deserve another chance". Now, you don't feel that way. You think I'm wrong for feeling that way, and that's where I feel you are off base, trying to tell me how I should feel.
#109
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 03:53
-
- Members
- 3 082 messages
Cuddlezarro wrote...
depends on the situation (though if wreav is in charge then its hell no period)
Realistically, I would sabotage it, but cure only clan Urdnot (if Wrex and Eve are alive). To hell with the rest. They need to change their DNA so that they have babies at a normal rate instead of thousand egg clutches.
#111
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:50
-
- Members
- 341 messages
The Twilight God wrote...
Just re-genophage them. Or wipe them out permanently.
If they're too stupid to use birth control wipe their asses out. It's not like the add anything worthwhile to the galaxy.
woah
#112
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 12:58
-
- Members
- 6 013 messages
#113
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 02:47
-
- Members
- 6 108 messages
I do so love the way strawman gets thrown around. The really funny part of this is, in context, assumptions presented as fact are what? Let's take a look at Straw man. It's your position that my points are straw men. Yet, since the OP credits you with the premise for this thread, let's take a look at it again:Dean_the_Young wrote...
This I concede to.robertthebard wrote...
Nor is the Dalatrass the one perpetrating the lie, Shepard is, and Shepard is a Spectre, a council representative.This i do not. Demilitarized takes many forms: for the Krogan, the terms allow for personal weapons but limited their navy and other weapons.Demilitarized does not equal virtually sterile, if they were demilitarized, they wouldn't be wandering the galaxy armed.[ Demilitarize.
Since these still aren't related to anything but your strawmen... yes, you still are.I don't think I'm the one missing anything here.
If you had half a wit to pay attention to what people actually say rather than your own imagined conversations, you'd realize that no one is telling you what you should feel.As to what we're discussing, the topic title says "Would you cure the genophage?". My answer to that was "Yes I would, because I feel like they have suffered under it long enough to deserve another chance". Now, you don't feel that way. You think I'm wrong for feeling that way, and that's where I feel you are off base, trying to tell me how I should feel.
Assumptions, presented as fact since, it has happened, so it will happen again. I have seen this logic used somewhere else, and seen it refuted to all hell, despite the fact that the context in which it was used has examples of it being accurate in our own cycle. Yet, for the sake of this discussion, it is accepted as gospel that sentient beings are unable to be anything but what they have been seen to be historically. Are the Krogan prolific breeders? Yes, they are, and guess what, that's part of why you need them for this war, just as the Salarians needed them for the Rachni war. The logical fallacy here is that despite what the past 1500 years have done to the Krogan, they won't change. INB4 straw man accusation: These points are brought up in the OP, expressing contention to these ideas is not a straw man, although, based on the nature of the points presented, they may very well be.
The fact is, the scenarios laid out in the OP are one person's opinion of what could happen based on historical record, taking nothing of the last 1500 years into consideration. (It's actually closer to 1480 years, but close enough for government work.) There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an opinion. There is, however a conceptual problem with presenting an opinion as fact. So, again, weighing all the subjective material/assumptions laid out in the OP, yes, I would cure the genophage. The Turians are willing to deal with any post Reaper war consequences, assuming at this point in the game there would be a post war where there may be consequences, the Salarians are not, but they are willing to stab everyone else in the galaxy in the back to prevent it. Weighing the choices, as presented, when they are presented, I would cure it.
#115
Posté 23 juillet 2012 - 06:09
-
- Members
- 80 messages
robertthebard wrote...
Obviously, you don't trust Mordin. If you did, you would cure the Genophage, since Mordin believes that curing the Genophage is right given the current Galactic situation, and he will tell you so.Cronotis wrote...
@ OP: No I would not cure the genophage.
Basically I agree with, well everything Mordin said in ME 2 abou the genophage reducing birth rates to allow for population growth, but not explosion.
Let's not forget that if Mordin survived Tutchanka (I know most people saved Wrex in ME 1) he still has the cure. Which means that alterations to the genophage or even a cure are post-war possibilities in this scenerio. I trust Mordin, anyone else might get it wrong.
Sorry if I was unclear, but by "trust Mordin" I meant that I would trust his judgement regarding the cure after we've agreed not to fix the sabatoge.
Yeah ^This too.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Alternatively, you can convince Mordin that he was not mistaken and that the genophage was proper. After which he will thank you for stopping him from making another mistake.
#116
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 03:04
-
- Members
- 687 messages
Wrex is awesome and Grunt... well Grunt is love... with a shotgun, but the krogan as a species are too dangerous to go unchecked. ME2 gave some insight into the Krogan. As the Urdnot Shaman said "Our spirit is one of violence and death." and the tank bred you meet on your way to Okeer "I kill because my blood and bone tell me to." It's part of who they are. Not something they are infected with.
As much as I hate killing Wrex, the Genophage is needed for galactic stablity. Besides, since it appears that cloning a Krogan is so easy, I can't imagine they would be allowed to die out completely. "Mommy, where do babies come from?" "Well sweety, some come from moms and dads. Others come from a salarian cloning lab on Sur'kesh. Now go strangle that varren!"
#118
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 03:26
-
- Members
- 476 messages
DarthKilby wrote...
With Wrex and Eve in charge, yes. With Wrex and Eve dead, no.
Pretty much this.
#119
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 03:29
-
- Members
- 221 messages
At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option. Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.
From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:
The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.
She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.
Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.
My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."
In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.
Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.
It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.
Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.
Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.
I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.
Modifié par PirateMouse, 14 avril 2013 - 03:30 .
- congokong aime ceci
#120
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 04:29
-
- Members
- 21 144 messages
Desperate times require desperate measures. If curing the genophage is the only means of securing Krogan ground troops for Palaven, than that it is what it is going to take.
The prospect of a reaper of the Krogan Rebellions at some point in the future is a worry, but the Krogan are much less of a threat than the Reapers and by a very large margin.
#121
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 04:57
-
- Members
- 495 messages
Even Wrex alone would be questionabe, because he is quite unstable and riven by rage. But if Baraka cen keep him in line..
With Wreav. Not ever. I wont let my scientist of my favourite alien race die, because of this krogan with anger management problem and vengeance tendencies.
Modifié par Reikilea, 14 avril 2013 - 05:00 .
#122
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 05:02
-
- Members
- 1 284 messages
But then, Destroyers think that modifying a person (which the genophage cure does) is genocide, as such, I can't see a Destroyer curing it anyway.
Me? I'll cure the genophage and go with Synthesis. Both are the correct choices, unblinded by ludditism. (I'm aware that half of the promises of Synthesis are things we're well on our way to doing in reality, right now, anyway.)
#123
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 05:03
-
- Members
- 1 284 messages
Could be that all krogan women are sensible, and that their culture would work better as a matriarchal society.
#124
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 05:06
-
- Members
- 21 144 messages
Auld Wulf wrote...
Well, if you pick Control or Synthesis, I'd bet the Reapers have a few tricks up their sleeves.
Like annihilating the galaxy at a later date?
#125
Posté 14 avril 2013 - 05:18
-
- Members
- 70 messages
What? Going by your logic, the genophage itself is modifying someone from their natural state. With that logic most Destroyers would be choosing to cure it. <_<Auld Wulf wrote...
Well, if you pick Control or Synthesis, I'd bet the Reapers have a few tricks up their sleeves. (Access to other galaxies, more garden world locations, the ability to terraform, and so on.) If you pick Destroy, then they might become a problem, yes.
But then, Destroyers think that modifying a person (which the genophage cure does) is genocide, as such, I can't see a Destroyer curing it anyway.
Me? I'll cure the genophage and go with Synthesis. Both are the correct choices, unblinded by ludditism. (I'm aware that half of the promises of Synthesis are things we're well on our way to doing in reality, right now, anyway.)
