340 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

It is amusing how people don't like the endings because they don't like playing god but they are quite happy to play god with the Krogan. Not only that they are quite happy to play god dishonestly by sabotaging the genophage and then lying about it.

Here is a simple solution. If the Krogan became a problem then you kill the ones that become a problem. Pre-emptively deciding based on one or two examples that the Krogans will become a problem is basically the Catalyst's logic. Except the Catalyst had the decency to collect mountains of data over thousands of years before he institued the harvest. You just decide to harvest Krogan babies based on one or 2 examples deeming it to be inevitable.

As Eve pointed out, Krogan females can CHOOSE to not have kids. Just like while it is possible for a women to have 20 kids over her fertile years, most have only 1 or 2. Is it impossble for Krogans to have birth control? To take the pill? Is it impossible for them to CHOOSE their own destiny and regulate their own population?

People apparently want a world without Reaper interference so that organics can forge their own future. Yet they want to deny the Krogan the opportunity to do the same based on what their parents did. If you are going to decide one race doesn't get to forge their own destiny just so the Asari, Turians and Salarians can be joined by humans in the corrupt Council and impose their will on everyone ie play god then you might as well exterminate them and get it over with rather than maintain the pretense.

Modifié par remydat, 14 avril 2013 - 05:35 .

[frostajulie]

No. And I am terribly uncomfortable with this fact. I cure the Genophage because its a game and I love Wrex. I mean like I really love him and his awesomeness. I only betrayed the Krogan once when Wrex was dead. I thought about doing it once with him alive then I played the Citedel DLC. And I can never do that to him.

But if this were real and I knew what Shepard knows then No I would not cure the genophage. And as I said I am really uncomfortable with that thought.

[Vargeisa]

The Krogan have no fleet. They have no scientist that come even close to the scientists of the other races. They will always be a technological inferior race.
Compared to that their numbers don't mean all that much.
So the fear of another Krogan rebellion seems a bit misplaced to me.

[Bill Casey]

Cure it...

[Reikilea]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reikilea

Could be that all krogan women are sensible, and that their culture would work better as a matriarchal society.

That´s actually very nice and interesting suggestion. Only after I met Bakara I realised, wow krogan aren´t that stupid. I think sensibility is exactly what their race needs. At least writers realised.

Before that they were only these mindless soldiers interested in punching, varen battles and headbutting.

Now I can´t get this immage out of my head, where the female clans are sitting down, drinking their tea in lady like manner, talking about society and watching as their males run around headbutting.

[SinerAthin]

I would cure the Genophage...

... but not in Mass Effect 3.

It is too much of the risk, with the entire galaxy being weakened by the Reaper invasion. I would have waited a few centuries for the Council races to rebuild and secure their borders, and then offer the Krogan a cure for the genophage if they choose to live by our rules.
Some Krogan would hold a grudge, no doubt, but the rest, especially the females; would gladly accept any escape from their current situation, while the stubborn would either join, or be left behind.


By curing the Genophage in Mass Effect 3, you are making a huge gamble and placing the whole galaxy on the betting table.

It is safer to wait, let the galaxy rebuild, and then carefully help the Krogan rebuild while imposing certain laws and restrictions on them to limit their worlds, navy and population.

The krogan would be less likely to bite the hand that feeds them if they knew that that hand was perfectly capable of strangling them on a moment's notice.
It would be the best and safest course for both parties.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Yes.

The genophage crosses dozens of lines. As a watime measure it was halfway acceptable - the krogan started the war, they used WMDs first, they wouldn't surrender, etc. I don't approve, but I do understand.

Once the salarians decided to modify it, that's where it crossed the line for me. One species doesn't have the right to make such decisions for another. The use of biological weapons on a civilian population during peacetime is the height of reprehensible.

[Splendid Dust]

Yes,
The current Krogan should not be punished for losing a war fought by their ancestors. The genophage just made the problem worse by making them even angrier at the council races.

Modifié par Blazebuddy, 14 avril 2013 - 07:13 .

[PinkToolTheater]

If I was in Shepard's shoes then yes. Knowing Wrex, Grunt and Eve would give me hope for a bright Krogan future. And given that there is a Reaper war, the Koran are the last of my worries.

[Bill Casey]

If there's another Krogan rebellion, I doubt it will be a unified effort...
Meaning it will be Krogan vs. Krogan + Council and maybe even the Rachni...

I'm more concerned with the Salarian uplift program, which facilitated the first Krogan rebellion and looks to be messing with the Yahg, sticking them in cages for research and approving them for covert uplift...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 14 avril 2013 - 08:17 .

[remydat]

Bill Casey wrote...

If there's another Krogan rebellion, I doubt it will be a unified effort...
Meaning it will be Krogan vs. Krogan + Council and maybe even the Rachni...

I'm more concerned with the Salarian uplift program, which facilitated the first Krogan rebellion and looks to be messing with the Yahg, sticking them in cages for research and approving them for covert uplift...

Sorry you missed the memo.  The Krogan are apparently a Consensus and can't disagree.  It is evitable despite what Wrex and Eve say that they will destroy the galaxy.  Just like it is inevitable synthetics would destroy organics and so the harvest was completely right.

[PirateMouse]

remydat wrote...

Here is a simple solution. If the Krogan became a problem then you kill the ones that become a problem.

Yeah, that's a simple solution alright.  Like most simple solutions, it's also nonsensical.

You're going to, what ... micromanage the krogan forever? Have a camera in every krogan household, as it were?

Animals do not self-regulate their populations.  Period.  Ever.  Even humans, who are at least capable of having the idea, have never been able to self-regulate as a total species -- that's why the Earth is grossly overpopulated with humans right now!

All it takes is one krogan saying, "You know what? Screw Wrex."  And since Wrex's ideas aren't popular, and he lost all leverage the moment the genophage was cured, it's going to be a whole lot more than one.

You can't have eyes everywhere.  You can't watch all of the time.  The galaxy is a big place.  A few krogan slip your net and go somewhere they won't be watched, and before you know it, you have a krogan horde.  Wrex with his highly unpopular ideas ... well honestly, Wrex gets killed pretty quickly after the genophage cure.  Even if he doesn't, his clan will be marginal at best, especially if he tries to control the population (his clan will stay small, but the rest won't!).

The first post frankly puts it perfectly: the krogan have every reason to "cheat," and those who don't "cheat" are rewarded by being overwhelmed and overrun by those who do.

The idea that somehow all krogan everywhere forever are going to control a birthrate 10,000 times that of humans (with a species that lives 10 times as long to boot) despite the fact we, a much more intelligent and reasonable species, have never been able to do it ourselves with our insanely slower birthrate ... it's beyond naïve.  You have to drive right past naïve to drooling herp derp idiocy to arrive at the conclusion that krogan can do this.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 15 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Sure! The krogan can breed as fast as they want; it doesn't matter jack-sh*t considering they don't have a navy or any sort of organization.

[PirateMouse]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Sure! The krogan can breed as fast as they want; it doesn't matter jack-sh*t considering they don't have a navy or any sort of organization.

Because that mattered last time.

[Xilizhra]

If the krogan find out about this, and they will, then the alliance with the turians falls apart, we possibly lose the turians as well, and the combined loss of two of the galaxy's best fighters will horribly damage our ability to win the war. In any case, the krogan now seem to be going extinct with the genophage, and while they're certainly something to worry about for the future... I won't kill them all just for that.

However, Control makes it all moot, as the krogan alone can never stop the Reapers, so now they have an excellent incentive to voluntarily control their population, yes?

[PirateMouse]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the krogan find out about this, and they will, then the alliance with the turians falls apart, we possibly lose the turians as well, and the combined loss of two of the galaxy's best fighters will horribly damage our ability to win the war. In any case, the krogan now seem to be going extinct with the genophage, and while they're certainly something to worry about for the future... I won't kill them all just for that.

However, Control makes it all moot, as the krogan alone can never stop the Reapers, so now they have an excellent incentive to voluntarily control their population, yes?

The decision to cure or not was made long before I knew I'd have that kind of power ... and even if I did know it, I'm not sure it would be any better to have to periodically massacre krogan in order to keep them from overwhelming the galaxy.

In any case, at the time the decision was made, I had to look to the future.  What does it matter if we manage to survive the Reapers somehow if in order to do it, we doom the galaxy in a different way anyway?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well seeing as I did not in two play throughs of the game... No. An adjustment in the genophage perhaps. But not an outright cure. Their birth rate is too high. You saw the rest of the Krogan. If Bakara and Wrex got deposed? It's all over.

I shot Wrex on Virmire, and faked the cure with Wreav in charge.

[AresKeith]

depends on who's in-charge really

[Xilizhra]

PirateMouse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the krogan find out about this, and they will, then the alliance with the turians falls apart, we possibly lose the turians as well, and the combined loss of two of the galaxy's best fighters will horribly damage our ability to win the war. In any case, the krogan now seem to be going extinct with the genophage, and while they're certainly something to worry about for the future... I won't kill them all just for that.

However, Control makes it all moot, as the krogan alone can never stop the Reapers, so now they have an excellent incentive to voluntarily control their population, yes?

The decision to cure or not was made long before I knew I'd have that kind of power ... and even if I did know it, I'm not sure it would be any better to have to periodically massacre krogan in order to keep them from overwhelming the galaxy.

In any case, at the time the decision was made, I had to look to the future.  What does it matter if we manage to survive the Reapers somehow if in order to do it, we doom the galaxy in a different way anyway?

If we survive the Reapers, we can figure out how to deal with that later. If we lose Palaven because of these shenanigans, we're kind of screwed completely. We beat the krogan once before, and that was at the height of their power; no one has ever beaten the Reapers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I was genuinely torn between curing the Genophage and leaving it.

So torn that I had a gun pulled on Mordin.

In the end, I couldn't do it. Despite my better judgment and total belief that I was doing the wrong thing, I let Mordin cure the genophage. With Wrex and Eve, I hoped that they'd be able to reign in the Krogan and truly change them for the better.

Unlike the Rachni, or peace with the Geth and Quarians, or any other similar situation, I truly felt the best thing for the galaxy was to leave the Krogan to their fate. It was the right decision to leave the Krogan to die. My Shepard agonizes with himself, believing that he'll condemn the galaxy to a reborn Krogan empire. He just doesn't believe that it's in the Krogan's nature to control themselves. Wrex and Eve are oddities, and there's no guarantee that after their deaths, the Krogan will remain committed to the path of peace.

But for the sake of the war, I had to cure it. I made my decision, and my Shepard informs Wrex about what he almost did, and tells him that if the Krogan make one mistake, one incident, one error, Shepard won't hesitate to come back and obliterate them once and for all.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 avril 2013 - 04:22 .

[PirateMouse]

Xilizhra wrote...

If we survive the Reapers, we can figure out how to deal with that later. If we lose Palaven because of these shenanigans, we're kind of screwed completely. We beat the krogan once before, and that was at the height of their power; no one has ever beaten the Reapers.

"Well, we survived the Reapers!"

"But the krogan population is exploding.  They're beginning to push into already occupied territory."

"Oh, we'll have to deal with that now I guess."

"We can't.  Only the krogan can repopulate this rapidly.  Everyone else's populations are still decimated, but the krogan are already exploding again."

"Well, just use the genophage again!"

"You made them immune to it with your cure."

"So modify it!"

"Yeah, because it's really that simple.  You thought the genophage was like some damned on/off switch you could go back and forth on whenever you like?"

"But can't you make a new one?" 

"If it's even possible to engineer a new one, that will take a lot of time.  Time we don't have because our already shattered populations can't hold out.  This isn't like last time when we were still relatively intact."

"Oh.  Oops?"

"Yeah, nice job killing us all, dip****.  Why did you even bother fighting the Reapers in the first place?"

Modifié par PirateMouse, 15 avril 2013 - 05:24 .

[Xilizhra]

PirateMouse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If we survive the Reapers, we can figure out how to deal with that later. If we lose Palaven because of these shenanigans, we're kind of screwed completely. We beat the krogan once before, and that was at the height of their power; no one has ever beaten the Reapers.

"Well, we survived the Reapers!"

"But the krogan population is exploding.  They're beginning to push into already occupied territory."

"Oh, we'll have to deal with that now I guess."

"We can't.  Only the krogan can repopulate this rapidly.  Everyone else's populations are still decimated, but the krogan are already exploding again."

"Well, just use the genophage again!"

"You made them immune to it with your cure."

"So modify it!"

"Yeah, because it's really that simple.  You thought the genophage was like some damned on/off switch you could go back and forth on whenever you like?"

"But can't you make a new one?" 

"If it's even possible to engineer a new one, that will take a lot of time.  Time we don't have because our already shattered populations can't hold out.  This isn't like last time when we were still relatively intact."

"Oh.  Oops?"

"Yeah, nice job killing us all, dip****.  Why did you even bother fighting the Reapers in the first place?"

I admit, the writing seems to have either forgotten the source of Wrex's power, or figured he'd hold onto it anyway, as no one at all considers the possibility that the whole fertile female thing would dethrone him. I think he'll now just be revered as the one who helped cure the genophage and will hold power through that loyalty. Additionally, Clan Urdnot is huge and has consumed several other clans thus far; moreover, Bakara is apparently working on a system where the less war-hungry females will have a much larger slice of power than they did prior. Ultimately, regardless of what ME2 said prior, ME3 is setting up Wrex and Bakara as being more or less certain to keep their own power and thus keep a hold on the krogan.

In any case, the geth can repopulate even faster than the krogan. This is, of course, still not mentioning the Reapers.

[nos_astra]

No, I wouldn't cure it. Especially not the way it was presented in ME3. Seriously? Two people promise me they will change the way of their people? I doubt they have enough pull to do that even before the cure (where they still had some leverage by controlling the fertile females).

It's really nice that they want to try and I don't doubt that they genuinely want to do it ... but they're also desperate and would promise anything to get the cure, consequences be damned. I understand that but I won't allow it. No cure for them.

I'd be willing to have it improved and adjusted but that's not an option.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 avril 2013 - 05:34 .