340 réponses à ce sujet

[PirateMouse]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, the writing seems to have either forgotten the source of Wrex's power, or figured he'd hold onto it anyway, as no one at all considers the possibility that the whole fertile female thing would dethrone him. I think he'll now just be revered as the one who helped cure the genophage and will hold power through that loyalty.

I understand that reasoning but don't for a second buy it.  People simply don't operate that way ... and krogan are even more unreliable and unruly.

"What have you done for me lately?"

They have zero incentive to follow Wrex post-cure and plenty of incentive not to.  It only takes one small splinter, but honestly I believe it would be much more than just a small one.  I honestly thing you have a better shot at winning the lottery with a single ticket purchased one time than you have of getting a scenario where Wrex's powerbase doesn't crumble almost immediately.

... and even if it somehow held (which I again no not buy happening), that lasts only as long as Wrex himself does.  I'm honestly amazed people can doubt the reliability of Control AI Shepard -- a person who's proven him/herself beyond pretty much all others as a person who honestly can be trusted with that kind of power -- yet somehow at the same time engage in the astonishing doublethink of believing that not only can they trust Wrex to somehow keep the krogan in check despite losing his only real leverage to attempt to do so, but they can also in that hypothetical scenario somehow trust the krogan to not explode out of control sooner or later anyway after Wrex dies.

What an astonishing leap of faith that is.

It really drives home to me how little most people here truly think through their choices rather than simply picking what makes them feel good somehow.  Curing the genophage is made out to be all about fluffy bunnies and happiness and light, so they pick it.  Control is scary because dictators and freedom fries and stuff and plus Hackett said stuff so Destroy must be the way to go.

Just ... the doublethink involved is really something else.  "We can trust Wrex to control the krogan forever, including after he dies! But we can't trust immortal AI Shepard because dictators and stuff!"

Modifié par PirateMouse, 15 avril 2013 - 06:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Intellectually speaking, you may well be right. Emotionally... I really can't choose to sabotage the cure. There's no payoff. Everyone you know who's involved dies, you lose all krogan support, only get a single salarian fleet in return, the entire Tuchanka mission consists of oblivious guilt slinging, and my chosen ending makes the entire thing a shaggy dog story. I have no incentive to disagree with the narrative's direction here, really.

[PirateMouse]

Xilizhra wrote...

Intellectually speaking, you may well be right. Emotionally... I really can't choose to sabotage the cure. There's no payoff. Everyone you know who's involved dies, you lose all krogan support, only get a single salarian fleet in return, the entire Tuchanka mission consists of oblivious guilt slinging, and my chosen ending makes the entire thing a shaggy dog story. I have no incentive to disagree with the narrative's direction here, really.

Ah, well, the trick here is to metagame and kill Wrex in ME1, then sabotage the data in ME2.  I figure it's not any worse than metagaming in order to save Wrex in ME1.

That way, you can keep Mordin alive, stop the cure, and actually get both krogan and salarian support.

But yes, still sabotaging the cure with Wrex alive is ... very difficult.  The game really is very cruel to anyone trying to take a stand there.

[Bleachrude]

Actually...you don't have to kill Wrex in the 1st game...

Just don't recruit him onto your team in ME1 and he won't show up in ME3.

[SinerAthin]

Data7 wrote...

I would.
Natural selection is what dictates if we live or die.

Riiiight... because if we had lived by primal natural selection, we'd totally have gotten out of the stone age, right?

And what about the geth? Where do they fit into the natural selection when they are superior to all that's natural?

[The Night Mammoth]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Sure! The krogan can breed as fast as they want; it doesn't matter jack-sh*t considering they don't have a navy or any sort of organization.

Because that mattered last time.

It did actually. They had a navy because the salarians and the asari equipped them with ships to fight the rachni, and they were much more organized, with a common enemy and common goals. 

The krogan of the fictional present don't have a navy, and they wont be organized with a common enemy or goals.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 15 avril 2013 - 01:17 .

[SinerAthin]

The Night Mammoth wrote...


It did actually. They had a navy because the salarians and the asari equipped them with ships to fight the rachni, and they were much more organized, with a common enemy and common goals. 

The krogan of the fictional present don't have a navy, and they wont be organized with a common enemy or goals. 

Well, the thing is; the rest of the other races don't have much of a Navy either after the Reapers ploughed through the entire galaxy.

The Krogan are more than capable of building ships and cities when they first put in the will to do so.

[The Night Mammoth]

SinerAthin wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


It did actually. They had a navy because the salarians and the asari equipped them with ships to fight the rachni, and they were much more organized, with a common enemy and common goals. 

The krogan of the fictional present don't have a navy, and they wont be organized with a common enemy or goals. 

Well, the thing is; the rest of the other races don't have much of a Navy either after the Reapers ploughed through the entire galaxy.

The Krogan are more than capable of building ships and cities when they first put in the will to do so.

Building a couple of stone ziggurats is a far cry from constructing a fleet to take on the rest of the the galaxy. They've never built their own ships, even in the thousand or so years since the krogan rebellions.

On the other hand though, if they can build giant advanced cities and a navy on par with the turians or humans, then I highly doubt they're the same blood-thirsty brutes that some people think should be feared and controlled. Warmongering animals aren't interested in science or building a civilization.

[Bardox9]

Just because they are currently demilitarized doesn't mean they would stay that way. The only reason they don't ignore the restriction placed on them is because of the genophage. It would be too easy to eradicate them if they started making trouble. With a cure they would have the numbers in a couple decades that they could lose hundred of millions of warriors and still not make a dent. According to EDI, there are currently 1 billion females on Tuchanka. The Krogan wiki says "Females are known to produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year."

Can't imagine the Krogan would have trouble... "procuring" ships and arms. With all the off world Krogan mercs, not to mention the bloodpack, it would be relatively easy for them to quietly build up their numbers for a few years then send out small raiding parties to a Turian or Salarian space port the kill people, loot the place, and take all the ships. A coordinated assault follwed by simple frame job pointing to some priate gang or merc group would allow the Krogan to build up a fleet before the rest of the galaxy knew what was happening.

Thing I hate is that Wrex's plan in ME2 would work. Would bring the clans in line and stop some of the in-fighting and raise their population, but not to a level that would freak out the other races. It would bring stability to the Krogan and draw them together as a people. They would have eventually rebuild their civilization. Nothing good can come from the Krogan suddenly jumping from a few billion to hundreds of trillions. Which is exactly what the cure would do. With their violent nature and the vendetta's the hold toward the Turians and Salarians, war would be inevitable. Wrex and Bakara wouldn't be able to control all of them.

Modifié par Bardox9, 15 avril 2013 - 10:56 .

[Jukaga]

My rule is if i cure the genophage, I pick control. It's the only way to be sure that the rebellions won't happen again. Wrex and Bakara's intentions aside, EDI's analysis of their breeding rates ran a chill down my spine the first time I heard it. Krogan don't have the right to fill up the galaxy with their young, which is what would occur. The salarians are at fault completely for this, but given the Rachni situation their actions are understandable. It's a pity the Krogan have to suffer this fate, but their physiology is completely unsuited for peaceful co-existance.

A better solution that curing the phage or sabotaging the cure would have been a 'genophage lite', intelligent Krogan HAVE to understand that they breed WAY too fast and live WAY too long. Even one live birth per year per female would rapidly fill up the galaxy with Krogan. Something like one child per century sounds fair and sustainable.

[remydat]

PirateMouse wrote...

Yeah, that's a simple solution alright.  Like most simple solutions, it's also nonsensical.

You're going to, what ... micromanage the krogan forever? Have a camera in every krogan household, as it were?

Animals do not self-regulate their populations.  Period.  Ever.  Even humans, who are at least capable of having the idea, have never been able to self-regulate as a total species -- that's why the Earth is grossly overpopulated with humans right now!

All it takes is one krogan saying, "You know what? Screw Wrex."  And since Wrex's ideas aren't popular, and he lost all leverage the moment the genophage was cured, it's going to be a whole lot more than one.

You can't have eyes everywhere.  You can't watch all of the time.  The galaxy is a big place.  A few krogan slip your net and go somewhere they won't be watched, and before you know it, you have a krogan horde.  Wrex with his highly unpopular ideas ... well honestly, Wrex gets killed pretty quickly after the genophage cure.  Even if he doesn't, his clan will be marginal at best, especially if he tries to control the population (his clan will stay small, but the rest won't!).

The first post frankly puts it perfectly: the krogan have every reason to "cheat," and those who don't "cheat" are rewarded by being overwhelmed and overrun by those who do.

The idea that somehow all krogan everywhere forever are going to control a birthrate 10,000 times that of humans (with a species that lives 10 times as long to boot) despite the fact we, a much more intelligent and reasonable species, have never been able to do it ourselves with our insanely slower birthrate ... it's beyond naïve.  You have to drive right past naïve to drooling herp derp idiocy to arrive at the conclusion that krogan can do this.

You mean like how the Council has micromanaged the galaxy for thousands of years?  Did the Council not micro-manage the humans when the Turians started a war because they accessed a relay?

Except Eve suggests the females don't want their kids being slaughtered in war.  They can REFUSE to have children.  So Wrex is not alone.  Hell when Wreav is in charge, Eve says the females will start a civil war before allowing Wreav to just send their kids to war.  So you are simply ignoring what is said in the game. 

Human women can probably have like 20-30 children in their life times?  Why don't they?  You act like Krogan females just want to sit around and have babies all their lives.  Why can't they have one batch and basically CHOOSE not to have any more kids because they don't want to deal with the burden of having to raise all those kids?  Inherent in your logic is that the Krogans are basically just animals who have no other wants or desires aside from having kids all their lives.  Eve makes it clear that is not true.  They are sentient just like us and should be given a chance to solve their own issues just like everyone else.  They have had this birth rate for millions of years and the galaxy is still around.  

Modifié par remydat, 16 avril 2013 - 12:39 .

[mass perfection]

I think lowering their lifespan by 60%-90% would be more efficient.Or you could just wipe them out.

[grey_wind]

PirateMouse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, the writing seems to have either forgotten the source of Wrex's power, or figured he'd hold onto it anyway, as no one at all considers the possibility that the whole fertile female thing would dethrone him. I think he'll now just be revered as the one who helped cure the genophage and will hold power through that loyalty.

I understand that reasoning but don't for a second buy it.  People simply don't operate that way ... and krogan are even more unreliable and unruly.

"What have you done for me lately?"

They have zero incentive to follow Wrex post-cure and plenty of incentive not to.  It only takes one small splinter, but honestly I believe it would be much more than just a small one.  I honestly thing you have a better shot at winning the lottery with a single ticket purchased one time than you have of getting a scenario where Wrex's powerbase doesn't crumble almost immediately.

... and even if it somehow held (which I again no not buy happening), that lasts only as long as Wrex himself does.  I'm honestly amazed people can doubt the reliability of Control AI Shepard -- a person who's proven him/herself beyond pretty much all others as a person who honestly can be trusted with that kind of power -- yet somehow at the same time engage in the astonishing doublethink of believing that not only can they trust Wrex to somehow keep the krogan in check despite losing his only real leverage to attempt to do so, but they can also in that hypothetical scenario somehow trust the krogan to not explode out of control sooner or later anyway after Wrex dies.

What an astonishing leap of faith that is.

It really drives home to me how little most people here truly think through their choices rather than simply picking what makes them feel good somehow.  Curing the genophage is made out to be all about fluffy bunnies and happiness and light, so they pick it.  Control is scary because dictators and freedom fries and stuff and plus Hackett said stuff so Destroy must be the way to go.

Just ... the doublethink involved is really something else.  "We can trust Wrex to control the krogan forever, including after he dies! But we can't trust immortal AI Shepard because dictators and stuff!"

It irks me that we weren't given a practical solution to the genophage, especially with Wrex in charge. Considering he outright tells you in ME1 that it's the Krogan's attitude towards the genophage that's dooming them and not the bioweapon itself, and then in ME2 presents a plan that allows him to rule the Krogan by manipulating the limited supply pool of fertile females, I find him asking for a 100% cure severely out-of-character.

I think it would be more consistent if he simply asked the Council if the Genophage could raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to say 0.05%. This still preserves his hold over the Krogan while given Average Joe Krogan hope that his species isn't doomed.

What makes this worse is that he's potenetially got the perfect propaganda tool in his arsenal to prove to the general population of Tuchanka why the Krogan can be strong individually and don't need to rely on numbers: Urdnot Grunt.

[fizzypop]

elegolas1 wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Yeah. I agree with Padok Wiks: "We should let evolution decide who lives or dies, not politics."

I generally agree with this statement (hence my oposition to synthesis) but in this case, I don't.

I will give the analogy of an alien species introduced into a habitat with the example of the canetoad which was introduced into queensland in australia. Like the Krogan were uplifted by the salarians to fight the rachni, the canetoad was introduced to australia to kill off crop eating pests. The canetoads had no natural predators to balance out thier high birthrate and so their population exploded to epidemic proportions. With no canetoad equivalent of the genophage, the canetoads continue to spread across australia. The Krogan also had no natual predators etc, so the genophage was introduced, an artificial environmental factor, to prevent such an epidemic as seen with the canetoads.

In the case of the canetoads and of the krogan, unnatual intervention of humans and salarians respectively removed evolution from the equation. Evolution works over periods of hundreds of thousands of years. Within a few hundred, the Krogan population will be epidemic. Political intervention is necessary for the survival of the other species.

You do realize that over time the genophage will mutate and probably allow for them to breed again? In fact we know this will happen since they talk about having to modify the genophage as time goes on. Do you really think the korgan will keep allowing this to happen? It's better to actually you know promote change in the race, help them with education, get them involved in the galatic community,  etc etc so when that time comes they will be strong race with signficant benefits that won't want to KILL EVERYONE. The great thing about getting involved means you can help steer political leaders who can maintain sense and order over the species. These aren't non-sentient toads. The coucil has a duty to them because they interfered with their natural evolution they don't get to go "OOPS DIE NOW" because of their own **** ups. They won't be able to outrun consequences forever. They made two ****** mistakes they need to wo/man up and do the hard work. Genophage is a band-aid at best they should've been preparing for the day when it wouldn't work anymore. Any other conclusion seems very short-sighted.

[fizzypop]

remydat wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

Yeah, that's a simple solution alright.  Like most simple solutions, it's also nonsensical.

You're going to, what ... micromanage the krogan forever? Have a camera in every krogan household, as it were?

Animals do not self-regulate their populations.  Period.  Ever.  Even humans, who are at least capable of having the idea, have never been able to self-regulate as a total species -- that's why the Earth is grossly overpopulated with humans right now!

All it takes is one krogan saying, "You know what? Screw Wrex."  And since Wrex's ideas aren't popular, and he lost all leverage the moment the genophage was cured, it's going to be a whole lot more than one.

You can't have eyes everywhere.  You can't watch all of the time.  The galaxy is a big place.  A few krogan slip your net and go somewhere they won't be watched, and before you know it, you have a krogan horde.  Wrex with his highly unpopular ideas ... well honestly, Wrex gets killed pretty quickly after the genophage cure.  Even if he doesn't, his clan will be marginal at best, especially if he tries to control the population (his clan will stay small, but the rest won't!).

The first post frankly puts it perfectly: the krogan have every reason to "cheat," and those who don't "cheat" are rewarded by being overwhelmed and overrun by those who do.

The idea that somehow all krogan everywhere forever are going to control a birthrate 10,000 times that of humans (with a species that lives 10 times as long to boot) despite the fact we, a much more intelligent and reasonable species, have never been able to do it ourselves with our insanely slower birthrate ... it's beyond naïve.  You have to drive right past naïve to drooling herp derp idiocy to arrive at the conclusion that krogan can do this.

You mean like how the Council has micromanaged the galaxy for thousands of years?  Did the Council not micro-manage the humans when the Turians started a war because they accessed a relay?

Except Eve suggests the females don't want their kids being slaughtered in war.  They can REFUSE to have children.  So Wrex is not alone.  Hell when Wreav is in charge, Eve says the females will start a civil war before allowing Wreav to just send their kids to war.  So you are simply ignoring what is said in the game. 

Human women can probably have like 20-30 children in their life times?  Why don't they?  You act like Krogan females just want to sit around and have babies all their lives.  Why can't they have one batch and basically CHOOSE not to have any more kids because they don't want to deal with the burden of having to raise all those kids?  Inherent in your logic is that the Krogans are basically just animals who have no other wants or desires aside from having kids all their lives.  Eve makes it clear that is not true.  They are sentient just like us and should be given a chance to solve their own issues just like everyone else.  They have had this birth rate for millions of years and the galaxy is still around.  

I love the last bit. Seriously doubt most women love the idea of popping out tons of kids even animals manage their fertility often by killing or eating their own born. "Birth control" has been around forever even humans practiced well before we had it in convenient forms.

[remydat]

grey_wind wrote...

It irks me that we weren't given a practical solution to the genophage, especially with Wrex in charge. Considering he outright tells you in ME1 that it's the Krogan's attitude towards the genophage that's dooming them and not the bioweapon itself, and then in ME2 presents a plan that allows him to rule the Krogan by manipulating the limited supply pool of fertile females, I find him asking for a 100% cure severely out-of-character.

I think it would be more consistent if he simply asked the Council if the Genophage could raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to say 0.05%. This still preserves his hold over the Krogan while given Average Joe Krogan hope that his species isn't doomed.

What makes this worse is that he's potenetially got the perfect propaganda tool in his arsenal to prove to the general population of Tuchanka why the Krogan can be strong individually and don't need to rely on numbers: Urdnot Grunt.

He would be pretty irresponsible as a leader to not try and cure something that results in stillborn children and females going off to be killed by a thresher maw.  The genophage is not wrong just because of children dying.  It is wrong because the psychological impact has driven krogan females to suicide and made the males even more aggressive than before.  You act like one's attitude to a baby being stillborn can be easily managed.  Go tell a mother or father who had a miscarriage or a stillborn how they should act?  Go tell them too that you had this miscarriage or stillbirth because someone else decided they could not be trusted based on what they ancestors did 1,000 years ago.  And let's lock you in a room with them and see if you emerge alive.

[Made Nightwing]

@Remydat. Here here.

My Shepard, for one, had serious reservations about curing it, until talking to Eve. Even then, he hesitated right up until Mordin said 'I made a mistake'. In ME2, he noted that the culture must advance with technology. I don't think the majority of krogan are quite ready, but I think they do deserve the chance to try.

With Wrex and Bakara as leaders, the krogan have an ideal to strive towards. They deserve the right to build and create. They suffered hundreds of years of humiliation and infighting. This was the best chance they were ever going to get. Leaders with the strength of Wrex and Eve might have never come around again.

That said, it'd be naive to think there wouldn't be wars, rebellions, etc. But cultural evolution is a funny thing. Humanity has surprised itself more than once over the years. No one thought slavery would ever end, or that we'd eventually realise that wars of conquest were immoral, but we did. So maybe a little optimism in regard to the krogan is forgiveable.

[grey_wind]

remydat wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

It irks me that we weren't given a practical solution to the genophage, especially with Wrex in charge. Considering he outright tells you in ME1 that it's the Krogan's attitude towards the genophage that's dooming them and not the bioweapon itself, and then in ME2 presents a plan that allows him to rule the Krogan by manipulating the limited supply pool of fertile females, I find him asking for a 100% cure severely out-of-character.

I think it would be more consistent if he simply asked the Council if the Genophage could raise their fertility rate from 0.01% to say 0.05%. This still preserves his hold over the Krogan while given Average Joe Krogan hope that his species isn't doomed.

What makes this worse is that he's potenetially got the perfect propaganda tool in his arsenal to prove to the general population of Tuchanka why the Krogan can be strong individually and don't need to rely on numbers: Urdnot Grunt.

He would be pretty irresponsible as a leader to not try and cure something that results in stillborn children and females going off to be killed by a thresher maw.  The genophage is not wrong just because of children dying.  It is wrong because the psychological impact has driven krogan females to suicide and made the males even more aggressive than before.  You act like one's attitude to a baby being stillborn can be easily managed.  Go tell a mother or father who had a miscarriage or a stillborn how they should act?  Go tell them too that you had this miscarriage or stillbirth because someone else decided they could not be trusted based on what they ancestors did 1,000 years ago.  And let's lock you in a room with them and see if you emerge alive.

The stillborns were a devastating and terrible side effect of the genophage along with the resulting psychological impact; it's what plays most on Mordin's conscience.

But there's a reason the genophage exists. Wrex and Eve simply cannot control EVERY Krogan in existence from restarting the rebellions, and Eve's ideas about females simply saying "no" are so naive they border on unhinged. Are all Krogan males so polite that they'll respect a woman's consent? Is there not a single female who wants to restart the rebellions?

Going from a one in a thousand birth rate to a thousand kids at a time overnight is a massive paradigm shift, and the majority of Krogan want venegeance. More importantly, the Krogan as a species have never even had such large populations except during the rebellions because their infant mortality rates were ridiculous prior to Salarian intervention (the genophage only substitutes for environmental hazards). If Wrex tries to control births, separatists will overrun him with sheer numbers. If Wrex does not try to control births, Tuchanka will become a war zone as the Krogan start fighting over mouthfulls of food and water, and the Krogan will eventually look towards the rest of the galaxy for resources. If Wrex gets more planets, it's just Tuchanka writ large.

Curing the genophage overnight is going to lead to another war with the Krogan, because the Krogan aren't going to learn how to adapt their birth rates to galactic society over the short term. And if another war begins, it's already been decided that the Alliance and Turians won't give the Krogan another chance. They're going to be bombed into oblivion.

Any Krogan leader who doesn't want a repeat of the rebellions (and the decisive extinction of his species) and has at least half a brain (ME1 and 2 Wrex) would realize that the genophage is something that needs to be cured slowly over time, not in a single day.

Modifié par grey_wind, 16 avril 2013 - 03:51 .

[The Twilight God]

I would have have cured the genophage, but only Wrex's clan. Not all of them.

[Nykara]

As I understood it the Krogan population was declining it wasn't sustained at all? That being the case, yes I actually think I would cure it rather then to see a species face extinction. But maybe not if Wreave was in charge, in my play through's Wrex was in charge.

[remydat]

grey_wind wrote...

The stillborns were a devastating and terrible side effect of the genophage along with the resulting psychological impact; it's what plays most on Mordin's conscience.

But there's a reason the genophage exists. Wrex and Eve simply cannot control EVERY Krogan in existence from restarting the rebellions, and Eve's ideas about females simply saying "no" are so naive they border on unhinged. Are all Krogan males so polite that they'll respect a woman's consent? Is there not a single female who wants to restart the rebellions?

Going from a one in a thousand birth rate to a thousand kids at a time overnight is a massive paradigm shift, and the majority of Krogan want venegeance. More importantly, the Krogan as a species have never even had such large populations except during the rebellions because their infant mortality rates were ridiculous prior to Salarian intervention (the genophage only substitutes for environmental hazards). If Wrex tries to control births, separatists will overrun him with sheer numbers. If Wrex does not try to control births, Tuchanka will become a war zone as the Krogan start fighting over mouthfulls of food and water, and the Krogan will eventually look towards the rest of the galaxy for resources. If Wrex gets more planets, it's just Tuchanka writ large.

Curing the genophage overnight is going to lead to another war with the Krogan, because the Krogan aren't going to learn how to adapt their birth rates to galactic society over the short term. And if another war begins, it's already been decided that the Alliance and Turians won't give the Krogan another chance. They're going to be bombed into oblivion.

Any Krogan leader who doesn't want a repeat of the rebellions (and the decisive extinction of his species) and has at least half a brain (ME1 and 2 Wrex) would realize that the genophage is something that needs to be cured slowly over time, not in a single day.

How does any government control people?  Again, basically all you are suggesting here is the Krogan are just animals.  If you accept they are Sentient then your logic makes no sense.  Years ago their ancestors were stupid.  That does not mean they have to be.  They are not robots.  They are not destined to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors.

Eve flat out says the female will refuse to have children if people like Wreav want to send them to war.  So your head canon trumps Eve why?  These females have seen their children born dead for hundreds if not thousands of years and you are just assuming their response will be let me have children just so I can send them off to die.  Illogical.

Ask any sensible mother what would happen if she endured thousands of stillbirths and then when cured some a**hole man tells her to send her children to war?  The likely answer is the answer Eve gives when Wreav is leader. CIVIL F**KING WAR.  These are not docile women or women physically weaker than the males and thus unable to fight.

So the choice is simple to me.  Do you think the Krogan are just animals or robots or do you think they are sentient?  I reject any logic that says a sentient species is forced to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors.  Maybe they will or maybe they won't.  That is the beauty of free will.

Modifié par remydat, 16 avril 2013 - 04:16 .

[Mangalores]

Nykara wrote...

As I understood it the Krogan population was declining it wasn't sustained at all? That being the case, yes I actually think I would cure it rather then to see a species face extinction. But maybe not if Wreave was in charge, in my play through's Wrex was in charge.

According to Mordin they stabilized it according to population levels based on survival rates prior to the uplift. To me it sounds like Krogan reproduce more like fish with large numbers of eggs than great initial investment on every single individual birth.

Anyway, it's a bit strange that the Krogans give so huge War assets. We are talking about an intergalactic war. What you need are ships. Any Council fleet even if the WE only implies a partial contribution of what they can spare should be worth more than even the entire Krogan species that can be nuked from orbit.

[knightnblu]

If you saved the Rachni and cured the genophage then there is no problem because each species counterbalances the other. But consider, you would use the genophage, genocide in other words, to enforce social change or allow them all to die. That does not strike you as odd?

[SinerAthin]

PirateMouse wrote...

I understand that reasoning but don't for a second buy it.  People simply don't operate that way ... and krogan are even more unreliable and unruly.

"What have you done for me lately?"

They have zero incentive to follow Wrex post-cure and plenty of incentive not to.  It only takes one small splinter, but honestly I believe it would be much more than just a small one.  I honestly thing you have a better shot at winning the lottery with a single ticket purchased one time than you have of getting a scenario where Wrex's powerbase doesn't crumble almost immediately.

... and even if it somehow held (which I again no not buy happening), that lasts only as long as Wrex himself does.  I'm honestly amazed people can doubt the reliability of Control AI Shepard -- a person who's proven him/herself beyond pretty much all others as a person who honestly can be trusted with that kind of power -- yet somehow at the same time engage in the astonishing doublethink of believing that not only can they trust Wrex to somehow keep the krogan in check despite losing his only real leverage to attempt to do so, but they can also in that hypothetical scenario somehow trust the krogan to not explode out of control sooner or later anyway after Wrex dies.

What an astonishing leap of faith that is.

It really drives home to me how little most people here truly think through their choices rather than simply picking what makes them feel good somehow.  Curing the genophage is made out to be all about fluffy bunnies and happiness and light, so they pick it.  Control is scary because dictators and freedom fries and stuff and plus Hackett said stuff so Destroy must be the way to go.

Just ... the doublethink involved is really something else.  "We can trust Wrex to control the krogan forever, including after he dies! But we can't trust immortal AI Shepard because dictators and stuff!"

I couldn't have said it better myself