340 réponses à ce sujet

[Bardox9]

I don't see a way to sustain peace with a cure. A deterrent, which is all the genophage really is, must be in place to keep the Krogan from eventually making another push. A.I. Shepard with his reaper armies working as "peace keepers", evolved Geth armed to their flashlight eyeballs that can be sent out by the millions, a constant war between Krogan and Rachni to maintain a level population, or the continued Genophage is the only way to prevent the Krogan from eventually expanding again. Their natural birth rate combined with the overhelming hatred of Turians and Salarians and the council races in general(basically everyone you are trying to save from the reapers), there is no way the mind set of "We out number them all 1,000 to 1. They can't stop us." won't come out of the Krogan eventually.

"They can't expect us to stay on Tuchanka forever"

[Uncle Jo]

The number of people willing to let politics interfere with evolution and condemning a race just because they made a mistake once is staggering...

[Spartas Husky]

Uncle Jo wrote...

The number of people willing to let politics interfere with evolution and condemning a race just because they made a mistake once is staggering...

"we should let the evolutionary process decide the fate of a species, not galactic politics"

Plus in my head cannon, Shepard was asked to intervene on a meeting between Krogan leaders and the council.

And Shepard suggested a harsh but fair plan.
Krogans will be granted rights to a colony world. But that world and everyone that they apply for after that is former Krogan Empire worlds.

They will be granted two at the time, So... they want planets, they sure have the right to get them, but they have to proove they are builders as well as destroyers. So the best proof is for them to fix the planets their ancestors destroyed through overpopulation.

perfect way to teach the new krogan generations the meaning of rebuilding, rather than warfare.

The former destroyed worlds would take a lot of resources that wont go into their military arm.
New Krogan Generations iwll grow up building and repairing rather than killing.
If they want to reproduce without a care in the world, they wont have enough food in the planets to go around, after all there isn't enough food for even minimal populations.

Ending result
Concentrate on building rather than war
New generations have a new perspective
The current environment of their new colony worlds is not suited for a population explotion, if they do they will starve.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 18 avril 2013 - 09:43 .

[Jukaga]

Uncle Jo wrote...

The number of people willing to let politics interfere with evolution and condemning a race just because they made a mistake once is staggering...

The problem with Wik's statement is that the Krogan's natural evolution had led them to the brink of extinction and only the intervention of the Salarians saved them. To sabotage the cure and expend the remaining Krogan on Reapers would restore the Krogan to their natural state: the brink of extinction on a dying world.

If politics could trump evolution to save them then it's fair game to condemn them to their fate with politics.

[Spartas Husky]

Jukaga wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

The number of people willing to let politics interfere with evolution and condemning a race just because they made a mistake once is staggering...

The problem with Wik's statement is that the Krogan's natural evolution had led them to the brink of extinction and only the intervention of the Salarians saved them. To sabotage the cure and expend the remaining Krogan on Reapers would restore the Krogan to their natural state: the brink of extinction on a dying world.

If politics could trump evolution to save them then it's fair game to condemn them to their fate with politics.

Krogans were in the brink of extinction?... I never heard or saw that. I'd like a source for that.

Only thing I recalled where they were having a hard timeafter nuking themselves. Nowhere was it mention or alluded that the Salarians "saved" the krogan.


I could be wrong though,,, hence it be nice for a source from ya to verify the Salarians indeed were the saviours of the Krogan race.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 18 avril 2013 - 10:45 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

If they wanna be a military race they should follow the turians. and not take worlds from the asari and salarian. with great power comes great responsibility.

dont abuse your power. just because your more powerful than any other race. that dont give you the right to take whats theirs. in short be civilized so no using guns to solve a problem.

they should follow humans to rather than settling worlds in citadel space conquer new worlds and secure territory for all citadel species in the terminus system.

lastly observe the rules of council they maybe stupid sometimes or all times but they keep the peace! so their. In short know your place and swallow your pride.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 19 avril 2013 - 12:40 .

[Spartas Husky]

Screw the council rules, bunch of socialist slowpokes who after 2000 years we puny humans showed them who is boss... like bowser. TECHNLOGY woooooot. few decades and humanity will outpace even the asari.

[Steelcan]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Screw the council rules, bunch of socialist slowpokes who after 2000 years we puny humans showed them who is boss... like bowser. TECHNLOGY woooooot. few decades and humanity will outpace even the asari.

. You don't really know what socialism is do you.

[Spartas Husky]

Steelcan wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Screw the council rules, bunch of socialist slowpokes who after 2000 years we puny humans showed them who is boss... like bowser. TECHNLOGY woooooot. few decades and humanity will outpace even the asari.

. You don't really know what socialism is do you.

Economical idea where a hierachy regulates and governs over the collective. So nope I got no clue.

Now besides that point... we never really got to see carriers in action now that I think about it.

[remydat]

Yes as the council does time and again, it is fine if you f**k over any other race between the 3 Council Races. They clearly have the rest of the races and a majority of game players indoctrinated if people actually think they are what's best for the galaxy.

Asari - Oh let's hide a beacon from everyone, use it to become a dominat race and then outlaw other people from hiding beacons because you know, no one should do what we did because they are not blue and pretty like us.

Turians - Let's just start wars because a race that didn't know we existed accessed a relay they didn't know was against my arbitrary laws. Also, let's inflict the genophage on the Krogan despite Salarian and Turian protests and let's plant a bomb on their planet just to be sure.

Salarians - Let's uplift a race we know we shouldn't to save ourselves and then develop a disease that subjects them to billions of stillbirths. Also, let's experiment on all sorts of sentient species like say the Yahg because you know we are Salarians and that is what we do. F**k with races for sh*ts and giggles and use biological warfare if they step out of line.

All 3 Council races - While we are at it, let's punish a people who tried to upload our laws and lost billions of lives as a result by denying them a new planet to settle for 300 years and basically condemn them to a slow extinction.

Viva La Council.

[Xilizhra]

Asari - Oh let's hide a beacon from everyone, use it to become a dominat race and then outlaw other people from hiding beacons because you know, no one should do what we did because they are not blue and pretty like us.

How is it that so few people can comprehend that the actions of a few government elites do not equal the actions of the entire species? I doubt even Tevos knew until recently (because, of course, it'd be a major security risk for anyone who deals regularly with other species to have this knowledge; Shadow Broker, anyone?). In any case, Thessian culture has been a huge boon to the galaxy.

Turians - Let's just start wars because a race that didn't know we existed accessed a relay they didn't know was against my arbitrary laws. Also, let's inflict the genophage on the Krogan despite Salarian and Turian protests and let's plant a bomb on their planet just to be sure.

The krogan were a gigantic and much-proven threat, as is the idea of opening mass relays without knowing where they go. In any case, the Relay 314 Incident was very short.

Salarians - Let's uplift a race we know we shouldn't to save ourselves and then develop a disease that subjects them to billions of stillbirths. Also, let's experiment on all sorts of sentient species like say the Yahg because you know we are Salarians and that is what we do. F**k with races for sh*ts and giggles and use biological warfare if they step out of line.

If the rachni had successfully expanded further, they may well have just killed all of the krogan as well, so it's not like the krogan are guaranteed to have suffered a net loss from this. The krogan were completely responsible for the consequences of the Rebellions.

All 3 Council races - While we are at it, let's punish a people who tried to upload our laws and lost billions of lives as a result by denying them a new planet to settle for 300 years and basically condemn them to a slow extinction.

They started out as just being fools, then became genocidal fools, and their culture is based largely around wanting to finish the genocide that they started.

[kathic]

If you are going to play God then play God. Cure the Genophage and choose control. Decide how the galaxy will turn out.

[Artifex_Imperius]

remydat wrote...

Yes as the council does time and again, it is fine if you f**k over any other race between the 3 Council Races. They clearly have the rest of the races and a majority of game players indoctrinated if people actually think they are what's best for the galaxy.

Asari - Oh let's hide a beacon from everyone, use it to become a dominat race and then outlaw other people from hiding beacons because you know, no one should do what we did because they are not blue and pretty like us.

Turians - Let's just start wars because a race that didn't know we existed accessed a relay they didn't know was against my arbitrary laws. Also, let's inflict the genophage on the Krogan despite Salarian and Turian protests and let's plant a bomb on their planet just to be sure.

Salarians - Let's uplift a race we know we shouldn't to save ourselves and then develop a disease that subjects them to billions of stillbirths. Also, let's experiment on all sorts of sentient species like say the Yahg because you know we are Salarians and that is what we do. F**k with races for sh*ts and giggles and use biological warfare if they step out of line.

All 3 Council races - While we are at it, let's punish a people who tried to upload our laws and lost billions of lives as a result by denying them a new planet to settle for 300 years and basically condemn them to a slow extinction.

Viva La Council.

Like i said Its not perfect but it works. It's just naive to believe that their is a perfect race out there or even a pefect system. the council has maintained peace though for many mellenia. even the Alliance understood that.

The turians are a great example cause they proved themselves truly worthy. sure they have made mistakes. but look at them, they have the most powerful fleet. Yet they did not demand anything of the council and did not take council planets. they showed restraint, understanding and compromise. they work towards the greater good of all.

If the krogan wanted to be cured they could have done so by simply showing cooperation, understand and letting diplomacy play out. they can live for 2000 years yet they're patience is pathetic.

[Alien Number Six]

That depends on who is in charge.

Wrex: Good leader with a vision for the future. Yes

Wreav: Selfish leader with a vision of Krogan conquest. No

[remydat]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

Like i said Its not perfect but it works. It's just naive to believe that their is a perfect race out there or even a pefect system. the council has maintained peace though for many mellenia. even the Alliance understood that.

The turians are a great example cause they proved themselves truly worthy. sure they have made mistakes. but look at them, they have the most powerful fleet. Yet they did not demand anything of the council and did not take council planets. they showed restraint, understanding and compromise. they work towards the greater good of all.

If the krogan wanted to be cured they could have done so by simply showing cooperation, understand and letting diplomacy play out. they can live for 2000 years yet they're patience is pathetic.

Haha, the Turians did not show restraint.  They comandeered the genophage and unleased it on the Krogan when their allies and the people who created it the Salarians only wanted to use it as a deterrent.

They did not try and talk to the humans and say, "hey guys, there is a council and they don't like when you do that,' but instead went straight to the war option.  They wanted to basically enslave humanity and the only reason they didn't really is humans proved more trouble than they imagined.

And it is funny how easily you forgive the mistakes of the Turians or others but then want to punish Krogan babies for mistakes of the parents forever.  It's absurd.

[remydat]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is it that so few people can comprehend that the actions of a few government elites do not equal the actions of the entire species? I doubt even Tevos knew until recently (because, of course, it'd be a major security risk for anyone who deals regularly with other species to have this knowledge; Shadow Broker, anyone?). In any case, Thessian culture has been a huge boon to the galaxy.

The krogan were a gigantic and much-proven threat, as is the idea of opening mass relays without knowing where they go. In any case, the Relay 314 Incident was very short.

If the rachni had successfully expanded further, they may well have just killed all of the krogan as well, so it's not like the krogan are guaranteed to have suffered a net loss from this. The krogan were completely responsible for the consequences of the Rebellions.

They started out as just being fools, then became genocidal fools, and their culture is based largely around wanting to finish the genocide that they started.

1.  When people can comprehend that what the Krogan did 1,000 years ago shouldn't result in Krogan babies to suffer for it.  It is hilarious to say the Asari should not all be blamed for actual shady sh*t done by their leaders right now but then say Krogan babies should continue to be born stillborn for crimes committed by their ancestors a thousand years ago.  Seems we have one rule for the pretty blue chics and another for everyone else.  What crime did those babies committ?

2.  Thessian culture has been a boon how.  As far as I am aware, Prothean culture that the Asari found and pretended was theirs has been a boon to the galaxy.

3.  The Turians could have had a conversation with humans.  Instead they went to war.

4.  Nope the Krogan were not completely responsible for the rebellions.  Mordin flat out admits the Salarians knew they were not ready.  If I give a cave man a nuclear weapon when I know he is not ready to wield such power responsible then I am to blame when he doesn't.  Mordin straight up says the Salarians basically gave nuclear weapons to cave men.  Whether the threat was real or not is irrelevant.  Just like they created the genophage, they could have tried to create a disease to stop the Rachni.  Instead they were scared and uplifted people they had no business uplifted.  Just like those idiots are playing with fire again f**king with the Yagh as we see when we visit Sur-Kesh.  Only amoral people think it is A-OK to f**k around with sentient species.  Do you think that Yagh wanted to be locked up and experimented on by some lizard dude?

5.  The Quarians became genocidal fools in part because the Stupid Councils laws made them conclude that was an appropriate solution.  Let's not pretend the Council's hands are clean in the matter of the Geth.  The same year the MW was ending, the Council or its people were busying exterminating harmless AI who filed a petition with them.

[remydat]

Alien Number Six wrote...

That depends on who is in charge.

Wrex: Good leader with a vision for the future. Yes

Wreav: Selfish leader with a vision of Krogan conquest. No

Eve says if Wreav tries to go to war the females will refuse to have children and civil war will result.  But sure, lets pretend all Krogan are stupid like Wreav.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Uncle Jo wrote...

The number of people willing to let politics interfere with evolution and condemning a race just because they made a mistake once is staggering...

Only 8% of all ME players ever sabotage the krogan dictator's plans genophage cure.

And Wrex is actually not in charge on most of them, either, so you need not worry about any short supply of naviety. :happy:

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 19 avril 2013 - 06:33 .

[Hey]

Yes, of course.

[Rhayak]

Same as many. With Wrex and Bakara, yes. With Wreav, not in a million years.

If that can result in Krogan infighting, it's a "good evil". It's more dignified that they control their own population thru war against each other, rather than a custom disease.

[Argolas]

Here is my answer, no matter if Wrex, Wreav, Bakara or whatnot:

The genophage is cured, the Krogan are granted a few worlds to colonize after the war and offered an embassy at the Citadel- that's all the galaxy needs to do to rightfully claim that the Krogan are given a second chance.

BUT: The Krogan must stay demilitarized. Krogan heavy economy must be put under a constant surveillance to make sure they don't build any warships. No matter how many Krogan are born, you can't invade other planets without warships. If the Krogan only have a few civilian ships, any attempted invasion could be blown out of the sky.before they come even close to landing.

In this scenario, the Krogan fate is their own. They have the problem of their birthrate and they wanted the genophage cured (which I understand), now they have to deal with that birthrate. If they can find a solution of their own, they may eventually earn the galaxy's trust. If they can't, they will only have their own planets to destroy, and then they have delivered the ultimate proof that they can't be allowed to rule themselves. In that case, they may even want to have the genophage back. If they don't, leave them contained on their own planets and let them live with what they have done.

[Aggie Punbot]

You know, this presents an interesting possibility. If Shepard saved the Rachni Queen twice and then cured the genophage, and then in the future the Krogan got out of line again, would the council be willing to try to recruit the rachni to deal with the krogan problem?

[Xilizhra]

1. When people can comprehend that what the Krogan did 1,000 years ago shouldn't result in Krogan babies to suffer for it. It is hilarious to say the Asari should not all be blamed for actual shady sh*t done by their leaders right now but then say Krogan babies should continue to be born stillborn for crimes committed by their ancestors a thousand years ago. Seems we have one rule for the pretty blue chics and another for everyone else. What crime did those babies committ?

Do they actually suffer? It seemed more like a matter of krogan parents suffering. In any case, I do cure the genophage for that reason, but acknowledge that it's a major gamble, and done mostly because I trust Wrex and Bakara. If only the males want revenge for the genophage, and the females have enough power to control their own population and not just send out gigantic streams of children to prepare for another war... then yes, that'll be all right; I just hope it's actually true.

2. Thessian culture has been a boon how. As far as I am aware, Prothean culture that the Asari found and pretended was theirs has been a boon to the galaxy.

Prothean culture and asari culture are polar opposites. The one thing they have in common is adding different species to the galactic community, but they go about it in utterly different ways. And culture is an organic thing that can't be artificially engineered by one tiny cabal on a single planet.

3. The Turians could have had a conversation with humans. Instead they went to war.

How? Human languages weren't added to their translators yet.

4. Nope the Krogan were not completely responsible for the rebellions. Mordin flat out admits the Salarians knew they were not ready. If I give a cave man a nuclear weapon when I know he is not ready to wield such power responsible then I am to blame when he doesn't. Mordin straight up says the Salarians basically gave nuclear weapons to cave men. Whether the threat was real or not is irrelevant. Just like they created the genophage, they could have tried to create a disease to stop the Rachni. Instead they were scared and uplifted people they had no business uplifted. Just like those idiots are playing with fire again f**king with the Yagh as we see when we visit Sur-Kesh. Only amoral people think it is A-OK to f**k around with sentient species. Do you think that Yagh wanted to be locked up and experimented on by some lizard dude?

It's not a good analogy. In the case of "cavemen," the problem would be that they'd have no idea what a nuclear weapon would actually do, or the ramifications of setting one off. This is not the case with krogan, who already had vast personal experience with WMDs from attacking their own planet. It wasn't a problem of comprehension for them, but of their culture (one hopes that it's more this than their inherent nature) being poorly suited to possessing such technology... and yet, if not for the uplift, they may well have died out even without the genophage.

5. The Quarians became genocidal fools in part because the Stupid Councils laws made them conclude that was an appropriate solution. Let's not pretend the Council's hands are clean in the matter of the Geth. The same year the MW was ending, the Council or its people were busying exterminating harmless AI who filed a petition with them.

The AI thing has always struck me as contradictory, but it's true that few people have ever been decent about the concept.

[remydat]

Xilizhra

1.  They die for crimes they did not commit.  That is all I need to know.  And their parents are not the ones who rebelled.  They are the Krogan babies that survived.  Wreav and Eve did not rebell.  They are still being punished for crimes they did not commit.

2.  It is clear the large majority of the Asari cultural achievements came from the Protheans.  It is stated by Shep and Javik when you take them on the Thessia mission.  The Asari hid the beacon used it's knowledge to advance themselves and their culture and then spread out to the rest of the galaxy.  I am not suggesting they did not add to it but let's be real, the game makes it pretty clear the Asari stature in the galaxy is largely the result of all the knowledge they learned and hid from the Prothean beacon.

3.  Come on, whether it was added or not, you don't just proceed to war.  They are militaristic a**holes who used war as a first option.

4. Mordin said it was like giving nuclear weapons to cave men.  It was his analogy.  The fact the Krogan already had nuclear weapons and destroyed their planet is proof that they were not ready.  Just because a culture advances enough technologically to develop nuclear weapons does not mean they have advanced enough morally or socially to properly wield those weapons.  That is the point Mordin was making.  Morally the Krogan were literally more like cave men but they simply were smart enough apprently to have developed nuclear weapons.  However because their technological capabilities advanced far faster than their moral capabilities they destroyed their planet.  And the Salarians knew all of this and still uplifted them. 

[Fixers0]

No, i'd rather bomb Tuchanka with a more effective payload this time.