127 réponses à ce sujet

[Moxy_Pirate]

One thing that I would really like Bioware to be careful of is viability of classes. Gold to a much smaller degree was like this but honestly playing platinum with a Vanguard or a Soldier borders on retarded. Yes you can make it work to a degree with some of the races but as a whole vanguards are just dumb to take into platinum and so are soldiers. These classes are meant to get in the thick of it and deal damage, but they are literally paper dolls in the platinum setting.

Dificulty should not just be sending in waves and waves of enemies that your team can only handle by sitting in a room and popping up from cover to do biotic explosions, grabs, or to snipe with an infiltrator.

What makes silver and gold fun is that you can actually take these classes and mix it up and their abilities give them survivability to do so. I guess what I am saying is please make content difficult some other way than getting killed before you can blink. Anytime content is based around GRABS, ROCKETS, and shooting constantly from cover, IMO you have failed.

I really like playing ME3 and would love tougher content to not focus on those aspects with biotic explosions mixed in.

[ParkBom]

Human Soldiers, Turian Soldiers, Batarian Soldiers, and Destroyers are amazing on Platinum. I somewhat agree with your second point.

[Moxy_Pirate]

N7-Link wrote...

all classes are viable

for play here you need: skill, teamwork, supplies (ammo rounds,weapon amps)

without it your team and the round fail

I guess you are missing my point. Here's what i do in platinum. I pick my class, then I move with my team taking cover and focus fire, do grabs, and shoot rockets. Thats fine if you are playing a biotic, engineer, or infiltrator. Everything else, especially Vanguard and Soldier imo is not being played as intended. Vanguard is probably the worse. Biotic charge is the staple ability of a vanguard and is for the most part worthless. NOVA? LOL. Asari Vanguard and the N7 Vanguard are viable, but again BC is EXTREMELY SITUATIONAL even on the regular enemies.

Bioware can't make content harder by giving the grunts more abilities that you react to maybe, instead of just making them 2 shot you?

[FlamboyantRoy]

Destroyer would like a word with you.

Other than that, spot on. I should be able to take any class(obviously with an efficient spec) to Platinum and at least perform relatively the same between them based on my skill level.

Modifié par FlamboyantRoy, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:16 .

[Iezza]

Destroyer would ADORE a word with you.

[jerrinehart]

N7-Link wrote...

all classes are viable

This in my opinon, is not even remotely close to true.

[Thoragoros]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

One thing that I would really like Bioware to be careful of is viability of classes. Gold to a much smaller degree was like this but honestly playing platinum with a Vanguard or a Soldier borders on retarded. Yes you can make it work to a degree with some of the races but as a whole vanguards are just dumb to take into platinum and so are soldiers. These classes are meant to get in the thick of it and deal damage, but they are literally paper dolls in the platinum setting.

Dificulty should not just be sending in waves and waves of enemies that your team can only handle by sitting in a room and popping up from cover to do biotic explosions, grabs, or to snipe with an infiltrator.

What makes silver and gold fun is that you can actually take these classes and mix it up and their abilities give them survivability to do so. I guess what I am saying is please make content difficult some other way than getting killed before you can blink. Anytime content is based around GRABS, ROCKETS, and shooting constantly from cover, IMO you have failed.

I really like playing ME3 and would love tougher content to not focus on those aspects with biotic explosions mixed in.

The entire problem with Platinum right now, and to a lesser degree Gold, is that all it does is send waves of Bosses.

There is no 'exchange of fire' with enemy infantry.  There are no mooks tossing grenades - or very few.  Right now, all that makes Platinum the "Platinum" difficulty is the fact the waves are composed almost exclusively of Boss enemies.

Boss waves do not make for good gamampley.

Modifié par Thoragoros, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .

[SinerAthin]

jerrinehart wrote...

N7-Link wrote...

all classes are viable

This in my opinon, is not even remotely close to true.

Indeed.

While I'm sure the most skilled players could complete Platinum with every available class, there are obvious differences in power, efficiency and ease.

(Some classes and weapons are just outright more powerful, easier to play and better at killing than other)

Modifié par SinerAthin, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:44 .

[Mozts]

Anyone playing Drellguard for platinum on regular basis?

[Star fury]

All classes viable on gold, viable on platinum too. Krogan-vanguard is excellent on platinum. So are krogan soldier and N7 Destroyer.

Modifié par Star fury, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[Star fury]

Double post.

Modifié par Star fury, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

Star fury wrote...

All classes viable on gold, viable on platinum too. Krogan-vanguard is excellent on platinum. So are krogan soldier and N7 Destroyer.

Are you serious. I feel like half these "its fine" posts are really "I'm awesome" posts. Sorry but Platinum is not fun and for certain classes/races you are basically just in there using your weapon and your powers mean jack because survivability in Platinum when outside of cover is zilch. Thats the truth.

Again when full extractrion shifts from using your abilities to heavy use of one shotting and BE spam, theres a problem. I'd rather there be dynamic and interesting game play and interaction with the enemies, instead of sitting in cover waiting for grabs, taking turns herding cats for rocket kills, and spaming BEs. Again if you are an adept or an infiltrator, yeah thats how you play anyways more or less. But as a vanguard. or soldier for example, not only are you less effective, but really the GAMEPLAY isn't really any different. Then the question becomes, if I am taking cover for grabs, rockets, and ability spam... why am I here? Melee outside of grabs? HA!

Seriously, I'd much rather the different levels (bronze, silver, gold, platinum) increased complexity, behavior, and number of abilities all of the enemies had rather than making them take so much damage and hit so hard that I can't interact with them with certain classes effectively.

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .

[WestLakeDragon]

I usually run platinum with either my AA, if I'm the only adept, so I can stop the phantoms, or the Justicar for amazing explosions. I've been with friends that have used all sorts of different things and we've been fine. The main thing the class needs to be platinum viable is either crowd control, a distraction/stop ability, or both.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Vanguards really are starting to be left in the dust. Kroguard rocks gold, but I find that he sometimes will fall short in Plat. AV works wonders for the first two waves in plat, but then Stasis becomes worthless, so she's a charging grenade chucker, and becomes next to worthless against everything except phantoms.

Novaguard? Please, he's viable on gold IF the player is great. Platinum? Good luck dying.
Smashguard can be done, but why not just use the adept? Does it even matter? Both singularity and charge are woefully underwhelming.
I don't have the Slayer, but he seems alright so far.

And finally, the Drellguard. Man, I love this guy. WONDERFUL on Gold, particularly against Reapers and Cerberus. Geth? ...eh, it can be done, but it's not as fun. He's a glass cannon, but when I play him, I'm always in first by a significant margin, unless there's a GI, and we're usually tied.

But I wouldn't even think of taking him into a platinum match unless I was with a team I trusted to extract/make to wave 10 by 100%. The vanguard class needs some serious buffing.
Honestly, I think most of the older Sentinels could use a slight buff too. I just find myself disinterested in any of my available Sentinels. The Vorcha and N7 are the ones I really want, because they look interesting and fun.

BatSent is okay. -shrug- Tur/Human/Kro Sents are all outclassed by others who do the job more efficiently by TurSoldiers/AA's/Drelldepts.

But the Vanguard glass is the one constantly left in the dust here. Some of its best powers (PD and Nova) use shields for their power, which is simply not viable on gold/plat for the damage output they have compared to things like TacCloak which PROTECTS you, rather than putting you in danger, like charge/nova/smash/phase disrupter do. Ridiculously long animations plague the PhoenixGuard and the Slayer apparently, and they don't even get the immunity frames that Nova provides.

Kroguard's mostly safe, since he already has tons of shields, but on Plat that hardly matters. He goes down in seconds too. Vanguards are supposed to excel at close-range combat, but waves of OHKO bosses and two-hit-kill mooks makes any non-stealth-based CQC a suicidal endeavor, rendering the Vanguard class underpowered and unfun to play.

[Moxy_Pirate]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Vanguards really are starting to be left in the dust. Kroguard rocks gold, but I find that he sometimes will fall short in Plat. AV works wonders for the first two waves in plat, but then Stasis becomes worthless, so she's a charging grenade chucker, and becomes next to worthless against everything except phantoms.

Novaguard? Please, he's viable on gold IF the player is great. Platinum? Good luck dying.
Smashguard can be done, but why not just use the adept? Does it even matter? Both singularity and charge are woefully underwhelming.
I don't have the Slayer, but he seems alright so far.

And finally, the Drellguard. Man, I love this guy. WONDERFUL on Gold, particularly against Reapers and Cerberus. Geth? ...eh, it can be done, but it's not as fun. He's a glass cannon, but when I play him, I'm always in first by a significant margin, unless there's a GI, and we're usually tied.

But I wouldn't even think of taking him into a platinum match unless I was with a team I trusted to extract/make to wave 10 by 100%. The vanguard class needs some serious buffing.
Honestly, I think most of the older Sentinels could use a slight buff too. I just find myself disinterested in any of my available Sentinels. The Vorcha and N7 are the ones I really want, because they look interesting and fun.

BatSent is okay. -shrug- Tur/Human/Kro Sents are all outclassed by others who do the job more efficiently by TurSoldiers/AA's/Drelldepts.

But the Vanguard glass is the one constantly left in the dust here. Some of its best powers (PD and Nova) use shields for their power, which is simply not viable on gold/plat for the damage output they have compared to things like TacCloak which PROTECTS you, rather than putting you in danger, like charge/nova/smash/phase disrupter do. Ridiculously long animations plague the PhoenixGuard and the Slayer apparently, and they don't even get the immunity frames that Nova provides.

Kroguard's mostly safe, since he already has tons of shields, but on Plat that hardly matters. He goes down in seconds too. Vanguards are supposed to excel at close-range combat, but waves of OHKO bosses and two-hit-kill mooks makes any non-stealth-based CQC a suicidal endeavor, rendering the Vanguard class underpowered and unfun to play.

Exactly, thank you for this post. From a gameplay perspective I think there is a bigger problem that BioWare is ignoring. Platinum pushes the way all the classes interact with enemies closer together instead of maintaining those interactions as dynamic and interesting. I WANT to be able to engage the enemies in different ways. Obviously I enjoy the the classes that mix it up and can actually melee ( love the Krogan Soldier ). But I find myself more or less playing the same regardless of class by wave 6 on Platinum.

[WestLakeDragon]

Yeah, platinum is a campfest. You move, you die, by wave 6.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Exactly, thank you for this post. From a gameplay perspective I think there is a bigger problem that BioWare is ignoring. Platinum pushes the way all the classes interact with enemies closer together instead of maintaining those interactions as dynamic and interesting. I WANT to be able to engage the enemies in different ways. Obviously I enjoy the the classes that mix it up and can actually melee ( love the Krogan Soldier ). But I find myself more or less playing the same regardless of class by wave 6 on Platinum.

No problem. Notice how I didn't even have to go into the woes of the Vanguard glitch that makes the class 100% untrustworthy and unplayable unless hosting? It's a shame my connection is iffy when hosting, since my brothers play League of Legends-- I don't want other players to suffer immense lag issues because I want to play a specific class. But that's what has to happen to avoid such a game breaker.

And I know exactly what you mean by the lack of tactical variety. In fact, Extra Credits had awonderful episode this week on game balance, and intentional game imbalance, and I couldn't stop thinking of ME3 and this dilemma. 
Here's the episode for reference: 
http://penny-arcade....rfect-imbalance 

Edit: I feel we /need/ a bit more of a cyclical exchange of what strategies are useful. The faction you're facing is really the only tool we have for this. Unfortunately, Platinum throws this out the window. 

Thanks to these wonderful (and sometimes horrifying) forums, we've been able to figure out optimal builds and strategies-- there are literally top tier ways to play this game, and if you don't play them on Plat, you're going to lose. That is the true imbalance of ME3's MP. 

Everything should be viable. But it's not. While some classes will be more effective against certain opponents, Platinum should actually make the variety of tactics LARGER since it incorporates all of the enemies! Alas, Platinum does the very opposite because of cheap game mechanics and tougher (health-wise) enemies, rather than more challenging/smarter AI. 

That's not a measure of difficulty. That's a matter of measuring which classes have the highest, safest, and essentially the most efficient DPS strategies. 

For a co-op game, that's a rather competitive mindset, don't you think?
And because of that, we're left with the Vanguard-- perhaps the best class in the campaign, and the least viable class in the MP. 

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:08 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

All classes are viable. Though some classes are a lot more efficient than others.

Especially on Platinum where you need high DPS to deal with bosses.

[Uberschveinen]

All classes are viable. Every class in the game can be played to platinum standard by a sufficiently-skilled player. All classes take a certain measure of skill to use well. Some take more than others.

Destroyer is relatively easy. It is a powerful class. To play to a high standard, you need target prioritisation and to have a good sense of movement, because you need to start moving well before everyone else to keep up. Also, as likely the last man standing, you have to know how to recover from a team collapse.

Paladin is a powerful class that is very hard to use. You can reduce enemy armour to effectively zero in two buttons. You can freeze Phantoms and entire ranks of chaff. But you are a point-blank class, so you need excellent situational awareness, and you have three different defensive options you will need to be able to choose between very quickly. If you Shield or Snap when you should have Drained, or any combo of these, you will die, and be so covered in enemies you make it hard to be revived.

Slayer is also very hard to use. Your palm blast is basially an unlimited-range hitscan grenade. You can attack and dodge through walls. Your melee is strong and has invincibility frames. But you are fragile, and must either be draining your own shields, or at point-blank, both of which are challenging to survive. You have to be extremely quick-thinking to survive, but you are capable of exceptional damage.

Obviously, the proposition that a soldier can't compete on Platinum is not just wrong but ridiculous. But I also disagree that Vanguards are a lesser choice in Platinum. Each Vanguard has a few features that mean when played to its bleeding edge, they are extremely tough and damaging. It's just that the Vanguard bell-curve is very tight, and the bleeding edge is a lot of standard deviations from the mean.

Every class adds something to a team. Playing on Platinum just demands that this atttribute be maximised and the costs of that gain be minimised, and this is somethign few players are willing to devote the thought to doing. They'd rather play like Silver and whine that they keep losing, and obviously it is the game's fault because it couldn't POSSIBLY be THEM that's at fault.

[FlamboyantRoy]

^^^^^^^^^ Good point.

This is how I see it. Why would I bring a Fury over a Justicar? A Paladin over the Human/Turian Sentinel? A Shadow over a GI? A Slayer over a Smashguard?

These are the issues, 4 out of the 6 classes imo aren't up to snuff when it comes to runnin' with the big boys.

[Uberschveinen]

Yes, they are. It is the player who is not up to snuff if the character is not capable. The characters are solely in your hands, and until a class is objectively worse than another, which is just not true as of now, that does not change.

It would be nice if each class took an equal amount of skill or practice to play to its utmost. Very impractical, though.

You would bring a Fury over a Justiciar because at close range the Fury can cause far more biotic explosions and faster. You would bring a Paladin because they are tough if played right, and I daresay the single most powerful character in the game against bosses because of their capacity for -100% armour. You would bring a Shadow over a GI bcause they are far better at street sweeping, and if you have the timing to survive, have higher damage potential. You would bring a Slayer because they have drastically more ranged damage than the Cerberus, especially against unyankable enemies.

Again, there is a common theme between all of the characters you want and the ones you don't. It is not their power when used at their peak. It is the ease with which you personally can use them at their peak. I am also not able to use some characters because I can't manage their playstyle, but I do not blame the characters for that, because it is my ability who cannot match the character, not the character that cannot match my ability.

[Pedro Costa]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Vanguards really are starting to be left in the dust. Kroguard rocks gold, but I find that he sometimes will fall short in Plat. AV works wonders for the first two waves in plat, but then Stasis becomes worthless, so she's a charging grenade chucker, and becomes next to worthless against everything except phantoms.

Novaguard? Please, he's viable on gold IF the player is great. Platinum? Good luck dying.
Smashguard can be done, but why not just use the adept? Does it even matter? Both singularity and charge are woefully underwhelming.
I don't have the Slayer, but he seems alright so far.

And finally, the Drellguard. Man, I love this guy. WONDERFUL on Gold, particularly against Reapers and Cerberus. Geth? ...eh, it can be done, but it's not as fun. He's a glass cannon, but when I play him, I'm always in first by a significant margin, unless there's a GI, and we're usually tied.

But I wouldn't even think of taking him into a platinum match unless I was with a team I trusted to extract/make to wave 10 by 100%. The vanguard class needs some serious buffing.
Honestly, I think most of the older Sentinels could use a slight buff too. I just find myself disinterested in any of my available Sentinels. The Vorcha and N7 are the ones I really want, because they look interesting and fun.

BatSent is okay. -shrug- Tur/Human/Kro Sents are all outclassed by others who do the job more efficiently by TurSoldiers/AA's/Drelldepts.

But the Vanguard glass is the one constantly left in the dust here. Some of its best powers (PD and Nova) use shields for their power, which is simply not viable on gold/plat for the damage output they have compared to things like TacCloak which PROTECTS you, rather than putting you in danger, like charge/nova/smash/phase disrupter do. Ridiculously long animations plague the PhoenixGuard and the Slayer apparently, and they don't even get the immunity frames that Nova provides.

Kroguard's mostly safe, since he already has tons of shields, but on Plat that hardly matters. He goes down in seconds too. Vanguards are supposed to excel at close-range combat, but waves of OHKO bosses and two-hit-kill mooks makes any non-stealth-based CQC a suicidal endeavor, rendering the Vanguard class underpowered and unfun to play.

This is the ultimate truth, Vanguards from my experience are being left more and more to silver/bronze status (except kroguard, haven't seen many Slayers either) simply because enemies keep getting buffs, all the while, Vanguards keep being left in the corner.
It's my favorite class, especially the novaguard, I just love it, but I know I'm only gimping myself and my team if I bring one to a Gold run.
Also, sorry for this rant, but I am really disappointed with the way BioWare's handling the Vanguard class, especially when this class is suppose to be the de facto CQC class.

[Chaoswind]

some classes are pretty much worthless, a good player will make them shine, but that is just putting a handicap on the player.

The only terrible class that is SUPER good, is the Paladin as a properly used Shield will negate MOST of the enemy damage while the rest of the team maximizes the DPS