93 réponses à ce sujet

[Adria Teksuni]

-Solrek- wrote...
No need to apologize. I take no offense.

I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

I agree, I think that would be a FANTASTIC area for a good solid CRPG.  As DA is still in its infancy, I have hopes that they will expand in that direction.

Granted, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves is one of the most horribly conceived movies in history, but I loved the inclusion of the Moor.

[wrexingcrew]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I am so sorry, I should have clarified that I was responding both to your post and to those calling Bioware racist.  Mea culpa!  The "ZOMG BIOWARE R HATERZ" regarding race posts have been there, but no, certainly not in yours.

Actually, no one in this thread seriously called BioWare racist.  OP was responding to people who've criticized BioWare's handling of race - amusingly, several posters appeared to take OP as one of the critics s/he was referring to.  In any number of threads on the subject, I've still yet to see any serious poster refer to BioWare as racist.

DA:O* could have handled race more thoughtfully in a number of respects.  The most glaring and oft-mentioned error is the human noble origin, where the player's choices in the character creator appear to be ignored.  That's as much of a problem on immersion grounds as it is from a "political correctness" standpoint.  Does that break the game?  Absolutely not.  It's a flaw in an otherwise stellar game that doesn't prevent me from appreciating its other qualities.  I don't really understand the attitude that every criticism must be met with scorn, ridicule, and unyielding resistance.  Here's a pragmatic point: those of us that care about BioWare's financial future would do well to think seriously about race/identity in games - the white consumer base, at least in the U.S., is losing market share.  I'm sure BioWare/EA is aware of that.  The more we can do to highlight issues that affect the broader appeal of BioWare games, the happier (just about) everyone is.

The BioWare team is full of thoughtful, talented people.  As I regularly say, I think they're ahead of just about everyone in the gaming industry when it comes to identity.  Just as most of us are comfortable pointing (constructively) to faults in combat mechanics, we should be comfortable saying: hey, here's an area to be thinking about next time.

*So far - I'm only 60 hours in on my first playthrough.  Feel free to evaluate my comments/place them in context accordingly.

[hero 2]

-Solre

No need to apologize. I take no offense.

I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

It's interesting, D&D produced a lot of different worlds for their games, and although several of them got dipped into here and there I just don't feel like they've been explored deeply. 

On another note, I think you're right. A roman-era game with all those different cultures all separated and threatened by one fearsome force .. oh hang on... didn't I just play that game? 

[-Solrek-]

hero 2 wrote...
It's interesting, D&D produced a lot of different worlds for their games, and although several of them got dipped into here and there I just don't feel like they've been explored deeply. 

On another note, I think you're right. A roman-era game with all those different cultures all separated and threatened by one fearsome force .. oh hang on... didn't I just play that game? 

I wouldn't make it Roman era. The region had a very interesting Medieval history as well. Have you seen Spanish plate mail? It's beautiful.

Also, the one fearsome force thing... yeah that choice for a plot is a whole 'nother topic.

[magor1988x]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What Ferelden needs is a good Moorish attack. That's what Ferelden needs.

Qunari?

[Adria Teksuni]

The Qunari would be an excellent tool for that sort of thing, provided they allowed us to deeply explore their culture and so forth in the process.

And no, not Roman (although I got the distinct impression that Tevinter was the Roman mirror for DA). I was thinking more along the lines of Crusades eras. A Xerxes or Alexander type expansion would be cool, too.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:56 .

[keesio74]

-Solrek- wrote...

Have you read my last post?

I agree that DAO is another unimaginatige derivative of Tolkien's world. That is part of my point. I criticize them for not being more creative, especially when they have the opportunity to push the genre forward and make it more inviting for a racially diverse modern world.

Then don't buy it. Some of us (even asian people like myself) out there like to play games based on Tolkien's world and were looking forward to it. Bioware has other games too that aren't Tolkien based.

[Adria Teksuni]

I think that's Solrek's point. He's (or she) is disappointed that Bioware didn't continue in the direction of Jade Empire, using non-conventional RPG settings, not necessarily that DA:O suxxors.

[valis123]

We barely even know about half the world yet and you still complain, DA:O is set in Ferelden at the moment, i'm sure we'll see tanned people, black and asian someday, let's not forget also that Thedas is actually a continent and there are more continents out there, i'm sure there's an Asian equivalent out there.

Modifié par valis123, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:22 .

[Ariq007]

I would agree, there is no endorsement of racism in this game. It actually seems to have a theme of unity: joining together with people different from you to achieve a noble goal. The ugliness of racism is repeatedly explored, usually though the relationship between humans and elves, where elves are treated with malcontent simply for being elves, and forced to live in squalor and filth.

[BeljoraDien]

I got the impression Bioware was stereotyping caucasians. We don't speak with old English accents, have awkward conversations about our feelings, and enslave other races. We don't ride horses around the country anymore either. And personally, I've never even seen a dragon, let alone slain one. I know that's shocking to people who only know white people through books and movies. Do some real research, Bioware.

[ASC266]

What we need is a federal law. There should be a law that requires all video games contain percentages of races based on the latest US Census. BioWare thought to throw us off their trail but they failed. They tried to head fake us with homosexual relationships, and women being treated as completely equal. They made the fatal slip; however, and did not make enough dark skinned characters! Darn their lack of diversity to heck!

While we are at it, all games depicting dwarves as smiths should be
banned. All that fire leaves one hell of a carbon footprint, and we
can't have video games promoting global climate change, now can we?.

[BeljoraDien]

ASC266 wrote...

While we are at it, all games depicting dwarves as smiths should be
banned. All that fire leaves one hell of a carbon footprint, and we
can't have video games promoting global climate change, now can we?.

I think Bioware has this one covered by having Branka make a clean-burning fuel for the dwarves. She's the true savior of Ferelden.

[Dark83]

Rainen89 wrote...

Well..there are black people in Ferelden, the chasind/qunari/sure there's other factions. The dalish/antivan seem to be fairly dark skinned as well

The chasind are not black. Morrigan "looks chasind", and she's certainly not black nor have the (...what's the PC term nowadays?) distinguishing facial structure. Qunari and elves aren't human, anyhow. (At least there aren't black elves. An evil race composed entirely of chaotic good dual wielding rebels, hah.)
Dark, tanned skin probably isn't what anyone's referring to when they say black, though.

-Solrek- wrote...

No. My point is that it is evidence
that excluding races is a CHOICE. So when people complain about that
CHOICE being made, they have a point.

Eh, the world is a tiny
place in those times. Migration is pretty much nonexistant - any
particular citizen has a "world" that's perhaps a hundred miles in
radius. This actually also ties into their awareness of political and international events, too. So it's a choice to portray a realistic setting.

You might say "they could all be Asian", but our (I'm Chinese) own fantasy and mythos tend to not have european knights in shining armor, so it's hardly a surprise that traditional fantasy associates Asians with "cloth, chi, and acrobatic warriors" and Europeans with plate armor. Or Arabs with pointy shoes.

[Dark83]

ASC266 wrote...

What we need is a federal law. There should be a law that requires all video games contain percentages of races based on the latest US Census. BioWare thought to throw us off their trail but they failed. They tried to head fake us with homosexual relationships, and women being treated as completely equal. They made the fatal slip; however, and did not make enough dark skinned characters! Darn their lack of diversity to heck!

Bioware is Canadian, it should be accordung to the latest Canadian census. :innocent:

[Derrek Cousland]

Well the darkspawn are fairly dark skinned, or is that not helping?

[peregrinefalcon46]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

-Solrek- wrote...
No need to apologize. I take no offense.

I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

I agree, I think that would be a FANTASTIC area for a good solid CRPG.  As DA is still in its infancy, I have hopes that they will expand in that direction.

Granted, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves is one of the most horribly conceived movies in history, but I loved the inclusion of the Moor.

I'd just like to point out that an old RPG I once loved dearly called "Quest for Glory III: Omens of War" is set in a mythical version of Africa. It featured an african tribal race called the "Zimbani" among others. Look it up, it was a great game.

---

As for multiculturalism in DA:O, I think its already quite diverse. First of all, you have Sten of the Qunari, Leliana from Orlais, Zevran from Antiva. Clearly these represent medieval european regions of Spain, France and an unnamed indo-european germanic state.

But you also have mages from various regions... the mage who is talking to Allistair when you first meet him is quite dark-skinned, despite having an anglic accent.  Not to menion the player-character can be made to represent any race you could dream up.

Finally, being that it is a fantasy world, the issue of race plays out between the fantasy races namely the enslaved and oppressed elves, and the separatist dwarves.

To imply that DA:O is racist or fails to address issues of race simply because there aren't many 'black people' is just ignorant. On top of that, I'll bet that the OP is some wannabe-politically-correct white kid.

[Gena Mafer]

The racism trope is tired.

I play an RPG to escape, which includes pretending I lived 500ish years ago, suiting up in armor and killing people I don't like with big swords.
Being emotionally manipulated into mushiness about an oppressed folk in a transparent and preachy metaphor (which makes its appearance multiple times in every BW game I can think of) irks me.
Only the Witcher gets a pass for this; it was even-handed in its handling of this trope and, moreover, didn't sentimentalize the business and try to send me on a guilt trip about it.
And DA is racist? Yawn. It's a Western fantasy. If a person wants some other kind of fantasy, then they can go play that. I don't play Asian games and complain on their forums that they don't put white people in them. Not that they would listen (nor would I expect them to.)

Modifié par Gena Mafer, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[AntiChri5]

-Solrek- wrote...

My problem is that Bioware invented this world. This is fiction, not human history, so they could create any world they wanted to. By choice they created a world dominated by Caucasians. I'm Asian and I find it extremely annoying that the Fantasy genre is so slow to progress towards integrating other races into the mythos. Any creative person could invent a racially diverse Fantasy world.

Bioware had a chance to create a Fantasy world that is racially diverse and instead went the "derivative" route, failing to push the genre forward and continuing to perpetuate Caucasian dominated gaming experiences.

Are you an idiot or just a troll? Have you played Jade Empire? A superb game in which everyone but one minor npc is asian. made by Bioware. The only caucasian in Jade is Sir Frederic  Ponce von Fontalbottom (or something like that) and is as much of an idiot as the name suggests. If you look hard enough you will find non existant problems everywhere.

[AntiChri5]

-Solrek- wrote...


I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

Why though? We dont actually need cultural diversity in games. Some times it is there. Sometimes it is not. Insisting it must always be there results in every developed having a check list:

correct number of black people? check

correct number of chinese? check

correct number of russians? check

i could go on forever but you get the idea. it would feel completely fake.

[-Solrek-]

AntiChri5 wrote...

-Solrek- wrote...


I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

Why though? We dont actually need cultural diversity in games. Some times it is there. Sometimes it is not. Insisting it must always be there results in every developed having a check list:

correct number of black people? check

correct number of chinese? check

correct number of russians? check

i could go on forever but you get the idea. it would feel completely fake.

I guess you wouldn't get it unles you played/watched/read dozens of games/movies/books a year that consisted of 90% "insert race other than yours here". All I am asking for is an evolution of the genre. And no it would not feel completely fake. The world is shrinking into a global village and we all are starting to consume the same products. Guess what, if you look at the rest of the world, Black people, check, Chinese, check, Russians, check... and so on.

Modifié par -Solrek-, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:19 .

[-Solrek-]

AntiChri5 wrote...

-Solrek- wrote...

My problem is that Bioware invented this world. This is fiction, not human history, so they could create any world they wanted to. By choice they created a world dominated by Caucasians. I'm Asian and I find it extremely annoying that the Fantasy genre is so slow to progress towards integrating other races into the mythos. Any creative person could invent a racially diverse Fantasy world.

Bioware had a chance to create a Fantasy world that is racially diverse and instead went the "derivative" route, failing to push the genre forward and continuing to perpetuate Caucasian dominated gaming experiences.

Are you an idiot or just a troll? Have you played Jade Empire? A superb game in which everyone but one minor npc is asian. made by Bioware. The only caucasian in Jade is Sir Frederic  Ponce von Fontalbottom (or something like that) and is as much of an idiot as the name suggests. If you look hard enough you will find non existant problems everywhere.

I think the troll would be the person calling another on a forum an idiot for having a different perspective from theirs. So that would be you, but I am not falling for the bait and will not resort to infantile name calling.

Yes I played Jade Empire and I applaud it, as mentioned in a previous post. Although, even I found the setting to be a little odd. As a military brat I've actually visited or lived in China, Japan, Thailand, Guam, and the most culturally diverse state, Hawaii, and I think the world is far more racially diverse than most people perceive it to be.

Now, back to the topic of Dragon Age: Origins and its unimaginative setting. My point is that Bioware could have taken the opportunity to evolve the fantasy genre beyond the Tolkienesque Western European setting. Just take a look at America and our history. How did we become so diverse? Why couldn't those historical elements have been integrated into a fantasy world?

Some people will point out that perhaps in the future Bioware will introduce us to a much more culturally diverse world through Dragon Age, but that is just speculation. Most likely we will be killing Qunari in the next episode.

[AntiChri5]

-Solrek- wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

-Solrek- wrote...


I think a cool region for a fantasy world would be something like the Mediterranean. You have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany to the North. Persia, India, and China to the East. Africa to the South. Lots of trade and wars. Of course you would fictionalize it all. But it could be such a culturally diverse fantasy world, and far more intersting in my humble opinion.

I think many of us have already experienced the Tolkien universe in a multitude of forms.

Why though? We dont actually need cultural diversity in games. Some times it is there. Sometimes it is not. Insisting it must always be there results in every developed having a check list:

correct number of black people? check

correct number of chinese? check

correct number of russians? check

i could go on forever but you get the idea. it would feel completely fake.

I guess you wouldn't get it unles you played/watched/read dozens of games/movies/books a year that consisted of 90% "insert race other than yours here". All I am asking for is an evolution of the genre. And no it would not feel completely fake. The world is shrinking into a global village and we all are starting to consume the same products. Guess what, if you look at the rest of the world, Black people, check, Chinese, check, Russians, check... and so on.

I have played a lot of JRPGs and watch a lot of anime (quite often with english subtitles) my argument is that having every different race represented in Ferelden simply so it is there would feel tacked on and fake. I understand you want your race represented but if it was forced it would feel like a token atempt at making you feel included which would probably result in not enough research into the different cultures so they would get it wrong and leave some feeling mildly insulted.