93 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

-Solrek- wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

-Solrek- wrote...

My problem is that Bioware invented this world. This is fiction, not human history, so they could create any world they wanted to. By choice they created a world dominated by Caucasians. I'm Asian and I find it extremely annoying that the Fantasy genre is so slow to progress towards integrating other races into the mythos. Any creative person could invent a racially diverse Fantasy world.

Bioware had a chance to create a Fantasy world that is racially diverse and instead went the "derivative" route, failing to push the genre forward and continuing to perpetuate Caucasian dominated gaming experiences.

Are you an idiot or just a troll? Have you played Jade Empire? A superb game in which everyone but one minor npc is asian. made by Bioware. The only caucasian in Jade is Sir Frederic  Ponce von Fontalbottom (or something like that) and is as much of an idiot as the name suggests. If you look hard enough you will find non existant problems everywhere.

I think the troll would be the person calling another on a forum an idiot for having a different perspective from theirs. So that would be you, but I am not falling for the bait and will not resort to infantile name calling.

Yes I played Jade Empire and I applaud it, as mentioned in a previous post. Although, even I found the setting to be a little odd. As a military brat I've actually visited or lived in China, Japan, Thailand, Guam, and the most culturally diverse state, Hawaii, and I think the world is far more racially diverse than most people perceive it to be.

Now, back to the topic of Dragon Age: Origins and its unimaginative setting. My point is that Bioware could have taken the opportunity to evolve the fantasy genre beyond the Tolkienesque Western European setting. Just take a look at America and our history. How did we become so diverse? Why couldn't those historical elements have been integrated into a fantasy world?

Some people will point out that perhaps in the future Bioware will introduce us to a much more culturally diverse world through Dragon Age, but that is just speculation. Most likely we will be killing Qunari in the next episode.

The idiot bit was uncalled for.

Yes many places are racially diverse but, even today, many are not. There are very few black people in Russia even today. Take that back  hundreds of years to medievil times and there is no way for all these different cultures and races to get there. This is back when travel was serious business as the primary form of transportation was your own two feet. Only those with a very good reason would bother going that far and leaving behind everything they know (Sten). Todays multiculturalism simply does not make sense for a medieval country based off medievil europe.

Not to mention that Ferelden is considered a barbaric backwater.

The brilliant mix of cultures we have today was made possibly mostly by technology which is simply not availabl in Thedas.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:30 .

[Adria Teksuni]

So...this thread was originally created to address the previous threads calling Bioware racists or that there were racist issues in DA:O. So far...I have seen no one in this thread calling Bioware racist. In fact, the only criticism was constructively done expressing disappointment in the fact that Bioware seemed to retreat back to a cliched European fantasy setting when they'd gone so far with Jade Empire.



Seems kinda like the thread is done.

[AiTenshi1]

Before I write my reply, let me say that this general issue (i.e. racism, from the media or otherwise) that is part of my area of academic study that I have excelled at for the past several years, so I am approaching the topic from a scholarly perspective in my reply.

For anyone who may wish to read a scholarly appraisal of this issue in media, including people of all possible ethnic identities (Asian, Latin, Caucasian, African, etc), you may want to read the short essay "The Face of the Other" (see link below) by Dr. Matt Thorn, Associate Professor at Kyoto Seika University. Although Dr. Thorn is speaking of Japanese manga and how Western audiences always (in his experience) misconstrue the "look" of the characters as being "non-Japanese", his observations actually apply to every media, and even real people rather than only fictional characters (for example, how many people have experienced assumptions made by others based on their appearance rather than who they actually are inside as a person?)

www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

I am observing a very disturbing trend on modern Western video games. I see an effort by companies to offer explicit "markers" (as Dr. Thorn mentions) so that players can make characters of certain ethnic appearance. This is a very negative direction to go in because it can only reinforce the attitude that appearance equals certain aspects of a character (or person) rather than stressing that appearance doesn't matter as far as who a person actually identifies as. It is analogous to US government efforts to "retrain" the "red man" (i.e. Native American races) according to Western European philosophies, languages, and cultural ideals, thus causing us to lose much of Native American culture and language over the years when this was done.

There are people of Caucasian ethnicity who do not identity with various Caucasian interests, histories, food preferences, etc, at least as far as overall history is concerned, but instead identify and empathize much more with other ethnicities such as Native American, Japanese, or some other culture and philosphy. The same is true for other people of other ethnic origins (for example, there are Asian people who identify much more with various Western European or American philosophies than their own indigenous beliefs and values).

Modifié par AiTenshi1, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[AntiChri5]

AiTenshi1 wrote...

Before I write my reply, let me say that this general issue (i.e. racism, from the media or otherwise) that is part of my area of academic study that I have excelled at for the past several years, so I am approaching the topic from a scholarly perspective in my reply.

For anyone who may wish to read a scholarly appraisal of this issue in media, including people of all possible ethnic identities (Asian, Latin, Caucasian, African, etc), you may want to read the short essay "The Face of the Other" (see link below) by Dr. Matt Thorn, Associate Professor at Kyoto Seika University. Although Dr. Thorn is speaking of Japanese manga and how Western audiences always (in his experience) misconstrue the "look" of the characters as being "non-Japanese", his observations actually apply to every media, and even real people rather than only fictional characters (for example, how many people have experienced assumptions made by others based on their appearance rather than who they actually are inside as a person?)

www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

I am observing a very disturbing trend on modern Western video games. I see an effort by companies to offer explicit "markers" (as Dr. Thorn mentions) so that players can make characters of certain ethnic appearance. This is a very negative direction to go in because it can only reinforce the attitude that appearance equals certain aspects of a character (or person) rather than stressing that appearance doesn't matter as far as who a person actually identifies as. It is analogous to US government efforts to "retrain" the "red man" (i.e. Native American races) according to Western European philosophies, languages, and cultural ideals, thus causing us to lose much of Native American culture and language over the years when this was done.

There are people of Caucasian ethnicity who do not identity with various Caucasian interests, histories, food preferences, etc, at least as far as overall history is concerned, but instead identify and empathize much more with other ethnicities such as Native American, Japanese, or some other culture and philosphy. The same is true for other people of other ethnic origins (for example, there are Asian people who identify much more with various Western European or American philosophies than their own indigenous beliefs and values).

And my own countries shamefull treatment of its indiginous population. They went on something of a kidnapping spree, taking aboriginals from their families and taking them to camps where they could be "made white" (at least culturally) they were forbidden from speaking their own language and forced to speak english, by the end so much of their cultue and oral traditions were lost, as well as those who were never reunited with their famillies that it became known as the stolen generation.

[Adria Teksuni]

I think it's rather silly to apply such a concept to video game character customization. If someone wants to make a Bruce Lee type character, they are not going to want to make him look African, although I am sure not all Chinese are proficient in jeet kun do or no Africans practice kung fu. I also believe that most people out there today either don't think that, or just don't put that much thought into it.



Comparing it to the American government "retraining the red man" is ludicrous and absurd. Insinuating that it will perpetuate such ignorance is equally absurd. It is political correctness taken to yet another ridiculous level.



So every single video game should have every character be of medium height and build, bland complexion and skin tone, same eye color and hair color, and absolutely no heritage based bone architecture?



On that note, every character in every book, movie, song, video, and other work of fiction also needs to be conveyed in the exact same manner, so none of their personality traits can be attributed to their race.



I'll stick with what's being produced, kkthx.

[Jester8183]

Dark83 wrote...

ASC266 wrote...

What we need is a federal law. There should be a law that requires all video games contain percentages of races based on the latest US Census. BioWare thought to throw us off their trail but they failed. They tried to head fake us with homosexual relationships, and women being treated as completely equal. They made the fatal slip; however, and did not make enough dark skinned characters! Darn their lack of diversity to heck!

Bioware is Canadian, it should be accordung to the latest Canadian census. :innocent:

@Dark 83 *Tip of the Hat*

Other than that I have nothing to add to this thread.

[Xyan]

AiTenshi1 wrote...

Before I write my reply, let me say that this general issue (i.e. racism, from the media or otherwise) that is part of my area of academic study that I have excelled at for the past several years, so I am approaching the topic from a scholarly perspective in my reply.

For anyone who may wish to read a scholarly appraisal of this issue in media, including people of all possible ethnic identities (Asian, Latin, Caucasian, African, etc), you may want to read the short essay "The Face of the Other" (see link below) by Dr. Matt Thorn, Associate Professor at Kyoto Seika University. Although Dr. Thorn is speaking of Japanese manga and how Western audiences always (in his experience) misconstrue the "look" of the characters as being "non-Japanese", his observations actually apply to every media, and even real people rather than only fictional characters (for example, how many people have experienced assumptions made by others based on their appearance rather than who they actually are inside as a person?)

www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

I am observing a very disturbing trend on modern Western video games. I see an effort by companies to offer explicit "markers" (as Dr. Thorn mentions) so that players can make characters of certain ethnic appearance. This is a very negative direction to go in because it can only reinforce the attitude that appearance equals certain aspects of a character (or person) rather than stressing that appearance doesn't matter as far as who a person actually identifies as. It is analogous to US government efforts to "retrain" the "red man" (i.e. Native American races) according to Western European philosophies, languages, and cultural ideals, thus causing us to lose much of Native American culture and language over the years when this was done.

There are people of Caucasian ethnicity who do not identity with various Caucasian interests, histories, food preferences, etc, at least as far as overall history is concerned, but instead identify and empathize much more with other ethnicities such as Native American, Japanese, or some other culture and philosphy. The same is true for other people of other ethnic origins (for example, there are Asian people who identify much more with various Western European or American philosophies than their own indigenous beliefs and values).

Nice article by Dr Thorn. Good read. Thanks,.

[CptSpivey]

So people want dozens of races to fill the game at all times.....I can't help but wonder why. Is it so that they can, like so many in the audience seem to want to, bicker about who gets to much screen time?



I really wish people would take note that no matter how you spin it you all want things the way you do for selfish reasons.. No one wants a race represented here for the good of diversity, but rather it's all is about your own personal comfort...... Your black you want more black, asian more asians ect not because it would lend to a better game but because you would feel better looking at people who look like you.



Fact of the matter is that in the setting they chose it would not work well and would feel forced in. But thats not to say there won't be room or reason for these things in the future. In the end it is just a game and put here for your enjoyment, do so or don't but don't start fights for a fights sake.

[mikkon463]

I seem to remember a similar argument when the LotR films came out and Tolkien and Jackson got flamed because the only non-caucasian people were represented as pirates and savages. And another similar argument flamed over the Star Wars prequel and the racist overtones evinced by the pandering Japanese stereotypes of the Nemoidians and the goofy southern black stereotype interpreted in the Gungans. Sorry to not have anything constructive to say, but please get over yourselves. You watched and/or read the Lord of the Rings and loved them; you watched Star Wars and loved them. Even if you hated them both (in which case I'm hard pressed to figure out your affinity for CRPGs in the first place). Same thing happened when devout Catholics interpreted the DaVinci Code as blasphemy. Are we going to find some bisexual flames too because of the 'open' Zevan and Leliana romances too? While you've got every right to express your concerns about these issues (which are only issues because you [blanket you] make them so, you are reading FAAAARRRR too into the nonexistent subtext of stereotyping that doesn't actually exist. Just stifle yourselves and enjoy the game for what it is.

[bibgar]

Feralden = Britain

Orlais = France

Antiva = Spanish / Portuguese / Italian hybrid



Time period = Earth equivalent 5th-16th century



That is the focus of this version of the Dragon Age franchise. Considering how fantasy (and the DA world) mirrors that of our own to some extent, it would be uncommon to see a non-European face in Feralden at this time just as it would have been uncommon to see one in medieval Europe.



That is not to say that there weren't any non-Europeans in Europe at the time, specifically the Moors. Arguably the Qunari are there DA equivalent. They are bronze skinned and just as the Moors had Islam, they have the philosophy of the Qun.



While the Moors were present in Europe during the Middle Ages, they were by no means integrated into every single culture in Europe. In fact, more paralells between the Qunari and Moors can be drawn with the Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Qunari 'invasions' on Thedas.



I suppose the game's developers could have made them black skinned, but then we would have threads dedicated to Bioware viewing all non-Europeans as dark skinned, religion fueled, blood-thirsty, warlike savages.



There was not however, at this time, any African Americans. As for Africa itself (excluding the Northernmost regions that received European attention), it was seeing its own cultural developements, and its own rise and fall of great civilizations and dynasties. The developers could have set the game in this region's fantasy equivalent, just as they did with Jade Empire and the its Asian themed fantasy setting.



They didn't, they chose a setting with a European medieval basis. They did so as they were inspired by A Sonf of Ice and Fire, and as a Western-based company are more likely to be influenced by the Tolkien-esque fantasy realms that are also centered around European Middle Ages ideas and images.

[-Solrek-]

mikkon463 wrote...

I seem to remember a similar argument when the LotR films came out and Tolkien and Jackson got flamed because the only non-caucasian people were represented as pirates and savages. And another similar argument flamed over the Star Wars prequel and the racist overtones evinced by the pandering Japanese stereotypes of the Nemoidians and the goofy southern black stereotype interpreted in the Gungans. Sorry to not have anything constructive to say, but please get over yourselves. You watched and/or read the Lord of the Rings and loved them; you watched Star Wars and loved them. Even if you hated them both (in which case I'm hard pressed to figure out your affinity for CRPGs in the first place). Same thing happened when devout Catholics interpreted the DaVinci Code as blasphemy. Are we going to find some bisexual flames too because of the 'open' Zevan and Leliana romances too? While you've got every right to express your concerns about these issues (which are only issues because you [blanket you] make them so, you are reading FAAAARRRR too into the nonexistent subtext of stereotyping that doesn't actually exist. Just stifle yourselves and enjoy the game for what it is.

The best policy is to "stifle" our opinions huh? What would Western entertainment be today if us minorities kept our mouths shut? Would we still have White actors painting their faces Black or donning rice farmer hats and buck teeth?

I am not accusing Bioware of any of that. I love the company. I love their games. I just feel that the DAO setting is a step backwards in the evolution of the fantasy genre. Art should be a reflection of reality and the Tolkien world is a reflection of a different generation from a perspective very different from our current world. Why go back to that when so many have already explored it?

Why does the topic of race and cultural diversity ****** so many of you off? It is a conversation, not an argument.

Modifié par -Solrek-, 19 décembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[Felix_Domestica]

You people are not normal... First you whine about how "it doesn't matter, which race we are" and after that you rant about why "there are no characters of my race???"... I just can't understand you sometimes. FFS, I'm caucian and I LOVED Jade Empire. I didn't go to forums and whine about why the game isn't set in europe or america... x)

[Aesir Rising]

I'd like to suggest that folks take their real-world social agendas and shove them up their toolsets. I don't buy/play FRPGs to immerse myself in anachronism, and there are already too many modernisms inserted into the DA NPC characters and dialog as it is.

[Mr Fishy420]

Is the thug you meet at the entrance of Lothering black?

[Dark83]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Are you an idiot or just a troll? Have you played Jade Empire? A superb game in which everyone but one minor npc is asian. made by Bioware.

Minor? John Cleese is not minor!
(...well, ok, fine.)

[Bryy_Miller]

-Solrek- wrote...

Invalidcode wrote...

Any creative person could invent a racially diverse Fantasy world.

So your version of 'creative person' is to copy & paste the races we have in our real world to the game?

No. My point is that it is evidence that excluding races is a CHOICE. So when people complain about that CHOICE being made, they have a point.

I like how, when given Jade Empire as an example of a non-white game made by BIOWARE, your response is that you "found it odd".

Lay off the racial indignation pipe. This is like when people were calling Disney racist for having black main characters in Princess and the Frog because they didn't have black main characters before.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 20 décembre 2009 - 11:10 .

[AiTenshi1]

Aesir Rising wrote...

I'd like to suggest that folks take their real-world social agendas and shove them up their toolsets. I don't buy/play FRPGs to immerse myself in anachronism, and there are already too many modernisms inserted into the DA NPC characters and dialog as it is.

I'm not sure if I am understanding your post, but it sounds to me like you may be playing the wrong games from the wrong company if you wish for social issues and discussion of those issues to be removed from various FRPGs, particularly those by Bioware and certain other companies. Bioware (as well as certain other companies) go to great lengths to specifically include many different social issues for consideration by players, just as other creative artists such as directors in film and TV (Joss Whedon, for example) make a great deal of effort to present many issues that are absolutely important for people to consider. Bioware does not promote one view over another, but rather brings up issues with multiple viewpoints, often expressed by different characters from different backgrounds, in order for players to consider these issues and how they are important in our lives. This is a very positive thing by any measure, and certainly should not be removed in order to suppress people thinking about the issues. It's very much the same as writers bringing up various issues from different viewpoints in novels, for example, and there are entire fields of scholarly study devoted to the study of such writings and other media formats. Games need the same type of recognition and respect now that they are a primary form of media and entertainment.

As I said, I may be misunderstanding your posting, but if not, I think you are truly missing the importance of the gaming medium.

[Razh2211]

bzombo wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What Ferelden needs is a good Moorish attack. That's what Ferelden needs.

it's the moops!

moors!

Hahaha, I almost choked with a pretzel. Legendary.
The only black guy I remember is that mage Torrin, in the Circle origin. He was very polite and well spoken.

Gee I hope nobody spots a burning cross during a certain part of the game. Hell will break loose.

[Aesir Rising]

AiTenshi1 wrote...
<snip>

As I said, I may be misunderstanding your posting, but if not, I think you are truly missing the importance of the gaming medium.

You didn't misunderstand my post, but you're talking about using a game to promote a personal agenda.

When I bought DA, I wasn't looking to expand my knowledge of counter-point arguments against Intelligent Design (Morrigan dialog) or advance any form of racial inequality and misrepresentation through "Diversity" programs (this topic) or come to understand that homosexuals are people too (romance encounters).  What I bought the game for was whiz-bang spells, fantastic creatures, character building and development, and some sort of traditional (or cliche, depending upon your view) fantasy epic tale unfolding before my eyes as my character participates in the storyline.

When I played NationStates, such topics and platforms for discussion of those topics might be expected (or more correctly, fully-anticipated).  I feel the primary purpose of that game is/was to provide a stress-free environment to discuss such issues and to present your viewpoints to a larger audience.

So, I don't think I'm missing the importance of the gaming medium.  Rather, I'd prefer to see this FRPG focus on fantasy RPG gaming, rather than try to cram a political, social, or religious message down my throat just because you or someone else feels that blacks are under-represented or mis-represented.  For a variety of valid  reasons presented in this topic by others (e.g., lack of jet age travel options, long-distance work commutes, metropolis vs. rural population centers, etc.) the towns and cities in this game shouldn't be presented as some sort of rainbow of race melting pots, with respect to humans.  Racial diversity in this genre is represented by dwarves and elves.

Try NationStates.  It's a nice lunch-time diversion and should sate your appetite for using the gaming medium as a platform for your real-world modernistic views on how everyone else should live.