28 réponses à ce sujet

[EnergizerBunny211]

"Mirror, Mirror, on the wall....Which is the most dangerous path of them all?"

Hi all....I have a question about Merrill and her Eluvian. I'm in the middle of Act 2, I've romanced her and so far sided with her on issues concerning magic and the abuse of the Mages.  But the more I hear about the Eluvian, the more I'm thinking I should convince her to destroy it.  My question on this issue is a two-parter:

1) How do you convince Merrill to destroy the Mirror?

2)  If I"ve shown favour thus far and romanced her (and have her complete Friendship; even convinced her to move in with me)...does convincing her to destroy the mirror at this point have any negative effects?


Thanks

[Xilizhra]

It's impossible on your path. In any case, the Eluvian won't be a problem even if she doesn't destroy it. Don't worry, you've made the right decision.

[EnergizerBunny211]

Thank you for you quick reply. That answers my question and sates my curiosity in that situation. I guess now I'll just have to play it out and wait and see what happens....This should be interesting.


**END OF THREAD**

[dragonflight288]

Just keep an open mind and recognize that even if someone is following a path, the way it goes is not always charted the way that one person wanted, whether by outside influences or unexpected hurdles.

[SirGladiator]

Its one of those weird things, if you never played DAO you'd get the impression that these mirrors are terrible and should be destroyed, but if you've played DAO you know they're cool and useful and should be used to the fullest of their abilities. Its quite the contradiction of impressions, so ultimately I'd say just do whatever seems like the most fun. I supported Merrill using the mirror the first time I played, before I knew what would happen, and honestly I expected her to end up dead through some crazy turn of events, but having played DAO I couldnt bring myself to pretend that these mirrors were bad and side against them. I was happy to see that she lived through the whole mirror thing, that was definitely as it should be.

[dragonflight288]

SirGladiator wrote...

Its one of those weird things, if you never played DAO you'd get the impression that these mirrors are terrible and should be destroyed, but if you've played DAO you know they're cool and useful and should be used to the fullest of their abilities. Its quite the contradiction of impressions, so ultimately I'd say just do whatever seems like the most fun. I supported Merrill using the mirror the first time I played, before I knew what would happen, and honestly I expected her to end up dead through some crazy turn of events, but having played DAO I couldnt bring myself to pretend that these mirrors were bad and side against them. I was happy to see that she lived through the whole mirror thing, that was definitely as it should be.

More accurately, Witch Hunt DLC from Origins.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its one of those weird things, if you never played DAO you'd get the impression that these mirrors are terrible and should be destroyed, but if you've played DAO you know they're cool and useful and should be used to the fullest of their abilities. Its quite the contradiction of impressions, so ultimately I'd say just do whatever seems like the most fun. I supported Merrill using the mirror the first time I played, before I knew what would happen, and honestly I expected her to end up dead through some crazy turn of events, but having played DAO I couldnt bring myself to pretend that these mirrors were bad and side against them. I was happy to see that she lived through the whole mirror thing, that was definitely as it should be.

More accurately, Witch Hunt DLC from Origins.

Yeah other than that DLC Origins pretty much supports that those things are bad considering it kills somebody (or does it) and the Duncan (and his beard) destroys it and suggest the place it was found be cleansed with fire.  Oh and for a kicker the mirror actually turned the person you thought it killed into a tortured, ghoulish abomination who begs for the merciful release of death.  But hey Morrigan says it's fine so the game totally shows the mirror in a positive light

[Xilizhra]

[Oh and for a kicker the mirror actually turned the person you thought it killed into a tortured, ghoulish abomination who begs for the merciful release of death.[/quote]
The oceans of darkspawn blood you wade through every day can do pretty much the same thing. In any case, the fact that it hasn't done that in four years is a decent sign.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh and for a kicker the mirror actually turned the person you thought it killed into a tortured, ghoulish abomination who begs for the merciful release of death.

The oceans of darkspawn blood you wade through every day can do pretty much the same thing. In any case, the fact that it hasn't done that in four years is a decent sign.

Not saying the shard is dangerous, or Merrill's mirror is dangerous, just pointing out that most of our interactions with the Eluvian in DA:O are not positive.  It kills somebody (supposedly), a Grey Warden (a legitimate authority on the taint) tells us that it must be destroyed or it will spread the taint and the place the mirror was found should be burned to the ground, and we find out that it did far worse than kill somebody.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

Oh and for a kicker the mirror actually turned the person you thought it killed into a tortured, ghoulish abomination who begs for the merciful release of death

True, but the key to remember is to separate the taint within the mirror that made it bad from the mirror itself.

The mirror itself isn't evil, but the taint within it was. And Merrill cleansed it of the taint -- something the games even support.

So it's definitely key to not conflate the two as being evil, as Marethari is want to do.

And Duncan's statements don't really mean much. He's kinda an expert on the taint yes, but the Eluvians are something that his words have no weight towards.

Avernus is the real expert on the Taint, as he not only weaponized it but he used blood magic to prolong his life from the Taint's effects -- indicating that blood magic and the Taint are linked, and that while blood magic can't cure a living person it can help them prolong the effects.

Merrill's magic -- the very magic Marethari used in an unamplified state on Mahariel -- was amplified through blood magic and cleansed the mirror shard of the Taint. It was probably able to be fully cleansed due to the shard being an inanimate object.

[DPSSOC]

Yeah and again I'm not trying to say the shard or Eluvian are dangerous or evil, just that the statement that DA:O supports them being not bad requires us to ignore all interactions we have with the thing in the vanilla experience. The Eluvian does less bad in DA2, with any problems arising from everyone in Kirkwall overdosing on stupid and crazy.

[TEWR]

Oh I know that's what you weren't saying. Just wanted to ramble on really.

And indeed, the problems do arise from stupidity/insanity/fear.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

But the mirror is still dangerous. Portals could be useful, or they could send you to the bottom of the ocean.

I got the impression that in order for you to go anywhere through the Eluvians, you needed an Eluvian on the other side.

Mirror A leads to Mirror B and all that. 

Or alternatively, the person using the mirror can set up where they're going. Considering that Tamlen could see the other end of the Eluvian in the Dalish Origin, this seems likely. So it's not going to be "Walk in, drown to death". It's going to be "Set it up, see the island, go to tropical vacation"

Communication devices could be great, unless the entity on the other end of the line can control your mind with its overwhelming magic powers.

But Demons can only blatantly control your mind in the Fade where they're at their strongest, which Audacity is not a part of anymore due to being sundered from it. Subtle manipulation, maybe. But based on the events that transpire in game, that seems to be the product of years of effort on the part of a trapped and sundered demon.

Whether Merrill is prepared to avoid or handle such dangers doesn't change the fact that the dangers still exist, even cleansed of the taint. (which seems itself likely the result of the mirror being 'connected' to a very tainted place... exhibit A of said dangers)

There's no evidence to really say that the mirror's original destination we saw in Origins was in fact a tainted place.

If it was, that could be the product of the Darkspawn having conquered that area, given that Tamlen states it's underground. Alternatively, Darkspawn could've been in the ruins at any time since it was there in centuries past and tainted the mirror, which Merrill cleansed a shard of later on.

That doesn't make the mirror itself tainted. Maybe if you try and link it up to that underground place again it might get tainted again.

[Blacklash93]

That plot seemed like it was meant to be more, for obvious reasons. After Witch Hunt I was expecting some more insight on where Morrigan went or how the Eluvian works.

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

Also how did Marethari know that the demon was going to use the Eluvian to posess Merrill? Did she know how the demon could use the Eluvian to break free and assumed it would? Unlikely given the Dalish don't seem to understand the mirror well. Did the demon tell her? Why would it do that and endanger its plans?

[Xilizhra]

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

It doesn't have to make sense. Remember that an abomination was the only one who ever said that. I'm fairly sure it's a lie.

[Face of Evil]

Blacklash93 wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

I could launch into some metaphysical fantasybabble here, but I suspect it's just easier to wave my hands while chanting "MAAAAAAAGIC" dramatically. It'll make about as much sense.

Just keep in mind two things:

1) A demon is simply an ideal given form. If you can bind something like that to a physical object, then presumably the feat can be repeated. with other objects.
2) The Eluvian was also capable of absorbing the darkspawn corruption despite being a transportation/communication device. So clearly it had some mystical properties beyond being a magical door/looking glass.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 27 juillet 2012 - 11:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

It doesn't have to make sense. Remember that an abomination was the only one who ever said that. I'm fairly sure it's a lie.

I suspect Audacity manipulated Marethari with this lie; I think she was its true target all along.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

It doesn't have to make sense. Remember that an abomination was the only one who ever said that. I'm fairly sure it's a lie.

I suspect Audacity manipulated Marethari with this lie; I think she was its true target all along.

Certainly corrupting the powerful mage who was hanging around on Sundermount for seven years straight would make more sense than pining after the less powerful one who left for six years.

[TEWR]

[quote]Filament wrote...

One could be on the bottom of the ocean.
And it might not work like that.[/quote]

One would have to wonder how it got there then, considering that the majority of them ended up in Tevinter hands -- where they could only be used as communication devices -- and those that didn't remained in Elven ruins.

And while it might not work like that, it does seem to be likely.




[quote]But by the time Tamlen saw where he was going, it was too late.[/quote]

Too late how? In the sense that he couldn't redirect it? In the sense that it exploded in his face? Remember, this is an artifact that he's never seen before, let alone knows how to work. So saying it's too late when he's faced with what amounts to a new piece of history doesn't seem right.
 
[quote]
Say she makes a mistake and dials the wrong number and it's Yog-Sothoth instead of a tropical vacation.[/quote]

Are we talking the communication aspect here or the traveling aspect? Because when you say "dials", my mind jumps to the former.

If we're talking the latter, remember how Morrigan was not only able to direct where her Eluvian was going but also didn't have it blow up in her face -- and she's had an Elven tome on the Eluvians to guide her. This suggests that the tome itself has detailed instructions -- which when translated, can be used -- on how to properly use the planeshifting aspect of the Eluvians.

And if it details that much, there's no reason to think it doesn't detail more on how to link them to other Eluvians in Thedas -- assuming that one can travel from one Eluvian to another in Thedas. They all exist in the physical realm, so it'd make sense.

Whereas the Fade is a realm of thoughts, and the material has no substance there -- save for the Magisters' breach of the "Golden" City, which is known in lore to be avoided by all the denizens of the Fade.

Whether it's avoided by way of being unable to go to the Black City because the Maker expelled them or avoiding it for reasons unknown is... well.... unknown.


[quote]
The mirror could connect directly or create a tear in the Fade to establish its connection for all we know. It's a powerful magical artifact and it's unknown how it does what it does.[/quote]

Once a demon is sundered from the Fade, it cannot return to the Fade or gain powers from the Fade again, short of possessing a host -- which we know the Eluvians don't do. This is the lore we've been given.




[quote]And Audacity isn't the only demon or malevolent magical entity in Thedas, and I doubt it or that other pride demon that coerced Merrill are the most powerful.[/quote]

Of course not, but we've seen nothing to truly suggest the Eluvians lead to the Fade other then the word of an Abomination who later on perfectly imitates the possessee in mannerisms, voice, etc..

So her credibility is not very reliable. 




[quote]And Idunna didn't need to be in the Fade to effect a powerful suggestion (not overwhelming, but formidable, and dangerous), and she doesn't seem to be any particular archmage. Say it's an ancient Tevinter magister, or undead dreamers of Arlathan.[/quote]

The Scrolls of Banastor -- as does Idunna's dialogue on "equal parts desire and magic" -- tell us that in order for a Mage to learn mind control, they must take into themselves a demon while in the Fade and go all Flemeth on it.

[quote]
It seems implied. Regardless, the mirror was obviously in a "dangerous" state.[/quote]

Key word being "was".

[quote]
I don't think it was ever innately tainted. But it has the capacity to link to tainted places or by some other means become tainted and taint people who touch it. That's dangerous. And it needn't be a matter of trying, if one could accidentally link up to the same place again. If it only got tainted by virtue of physical proximity to darkspawn in the forest... well, that doesn't seem likely, given the whole "being connected to a black underground city while also coincidentally tainted" business.[/quote]

Why doesn't it seem likely? There's nothing to suggest the Taint bars someone from accessing a place previously linked.

It'd be suicidal to try and cross that threshold through a tainted mirror, but there's nothing to say the Taint negates the travel aspect.

[quote]
Seems to me, either the taint came from accidentally connecting, or intentionally (Corypheus ritual perhaps)[/quote]

But history says that after the fall of Arlathan, much of the Elven lore and knowledge on Eluvians -- and indeed, Elven culture as a whole -- was suppressed and destroyed by the Magisters. In addition, history notes that the only thing they could get them to do was the communication aspect through use of blood magic and the power they believed was held within the bones of dragons.

[quote]
, or externally (they didn't connect to the black underground city, the black underground city connected to them). But regardless of which alternative is the case, the mere fact that it can connect to such a place and have such a result represents a danger of the Eluvian.
[/quote]

A danger to that particular place, until further investigation yields more information on said place.

Not the Eluvians as a whole.


[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

1) A demon is simply an ideal given form. If you can bind something like that to a physical object, then presumably the feat can be repeated. with other objects.
[/quote]

Only if you know the particular spell(s) needed to free a trapped demon and bind it into something else.

I still maintain Marethari could've bound the Demon into a bug and crushed the thing underfoot. That'd be the sensible thing to do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:21 .

[dragonflight288]

Face of Evil wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

I could launch into some metaphysical fantasybabble here, but I suspect it's just easier to wave my hands while chanting "MAAAAAAAGIC" dramatically. It'll make about as much sense.

Just keep in mind two things:

1) A demon is simply an ideal given form. If you can bind something like that to a physical object, then presumably the feat can be repeated. with other objects.
2) The Eluvian was also capable of absorbing the darkspawn corruption despite being a transportation/communication device. So clearly it had some mystical properties beyond being a magical door/looking glass.

Please also bear in mind how powerful the taint is. The darkspawn taint everything around them simply by being there. In the magi origin story, you can pick up a mages staff from the repository that has been tainted by darkspawn. Items like swords and shields are tainted by being possessed by darkspawn, and that usually has a negative effect on your dexterity when wielding them as a Grey Warden (who is immune to the taint.)

The land taints, items taint, so why not a mirror?

Or, you know, *waves arms dramatically around* MAAAAGIIIIIC!!! 

[Shadowvalker]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

I could launch into some metaphysical fantasybabble here, but I suspect it's just easier to wave my hands while chanting "MAAAAAAAGIC" dramatically. It'll make about as much sense.

Just keep in mind two things:

1) A demon is simply an ideal given form. If you can bind something like that to a physical object, then presumably the feat can be repeated. with other objects.
2) The Eluvian was also capable of absorbing the darkspawn corruption despite being a transportation/communication device. So clearly it had some mystical properties beyond being a magical door/looking glass.

Please also bear in mind how powerful the taint is. The darkspawn taint everything around them simply by being there. In the magi origin story, you can pick up a mages staff from the repository that has been tainted by darkspawn. Items like swords and shields are tainted by being possessed by darkspawn, and that usually has a negative effect on your dexterity when wielding them as a Grey Warden (who is immune to the taint.)

The land taints, items taint, so why not a mirror?

Or, you know, *waves arms dramatically around* MAAAAGIIIIIC!!! 

And yet we have the Northern Prickleweed - just saying.....

[dragonflight288]

Shadowvalker wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

The demon thing didn't really make sense. If the Eluvian is used for transportation between locations or even realms and communication at its most basic function, how can demon bound to a statue in the physical realm use it to break free?

I could launch into some metaphysical fantasybabble here, but I suspect it's just easier to wave my hands while chanting "MAAAAAAAGIC" dramatically. It'll make about as much sense.

Just keep in mind two things:

1) A demon is simply an ideal given form. If you can bind something like that to a physical object, then presumably the feat can be repeated. with other objects.
2) The Eluvian was also capable of absorbing the darkspawn corruption despite being a transportation/communication device. So clearly it had some mystical properties beyond being a magical door/looking glass.

Please also bear in mind how powerful the taint is. The darkspawn taint everything around them simply by being there. In the magi origin story, you can pick up a mages staff from the repository that has been tainted by darkspawn. Items like swords and shields are tainted by being possessed by darkspawn, and that usually has a negative effect on your dexterity when wielding them as a Grey Warden (who is immune to the taint.)

The land taints, items taint, so why not a mirror?

Or, you know, *waves arms dramatically around* MAAAAGIIIIIC!!! 

And yet we have the Northern Prickleweed - just saying.....

Ah yes, , the Northern Prickleweed. Stupid herb that grows in rocky soil in stupid, out of the way areas that I spent roughly an hour and a half looking for on my first playthrough before getting so fed up with it that I cheated and looked online on where to find it.

Stupid herb.