63 réponses à ce sujet

[FalloutBoy]

The elfs must die because they are elfs. The fact that I got to help the hot naked forest babe was a bonus.

[Gold Dragon]

Sartheris wrote...

seriously people, what kind of role players are you, to slaughter and entire clan of elves just to make the werewolves your allies ?

For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

[Galad22]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

It is little diffferent though, on golems case you know that you can have them because Branka promises. But you have absolutely no indication that werewolfes would care to join you in fight against blight after you kill elves. Certainly not before you make the suggestion.

So on a roleplaying aspect it is just chaotic stupid.

Modifié par Galad22, 19 décembre 2009 - 12:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

A Golden Dragon wrote...
For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

Yes, because leaving them to die slowly is much better.

Branka may be completely bonkers, but she has a point.

[Gold Dragon]

Herr Uhl wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...
For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

Yes, because leaving them to die slowly is much better.

Branka may be completely bonkers, but she has a point.

THAT choice is:  Die Quickly by being enslaved, or Die Slowly with Freedom.  And most of the Golems that Carridan created have been destroyed.

[Herr Uhl]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, because leaving them to die slowly is much better.

Branka may be completely bonkers, but she has a point.

THAT choice is:  Die Quickly by being enslaved, or Die Slowly with Freedom.  And most of the Golems that Carridan created have been destroyed.

If they would have some self-control and only use volunteers. I see it as no worse than dying while fighting normally.
Phrase it like this instead:
Abandon hope and die with dignity
or
Try and do something about it

And what has "most golems that Caradin created have been destroyed" have to do with it?

[Gold Dragon]

Carridan used Self Control. The King of his Dwarf time did NOT.



Branka Fed her House, save Oghren and herself, to the Darkspawn. Do you REALLY want to trust her with anything sharp and/or heavy?

[Herr Uhl]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Carridan used Self Control. The King of his Dwarf time did NOT.

Branka Fed her House, save Oghren and herself, to the Darkspawn. Do you REALLY want to trust her with anything sharp and/or heavy?

If it is that, or the dwarven race perishing, yes, yes I would.

This choice isn't even close to being the same as "attack the elves".

[Gold Dragon]

Actually, I seem to have Mis-quoted my first post. Which was one that stated why would one want to side with the Werewolves.



The answer would be rather similar. The Golems are somewhat stronger than the Dwarves, and the Werewolves are stronger than the Elves, other than in Ranged Attacks.

[Herr Uhl]

Ok, I thought you meant in an RP sense. I just thought that it seemed like comparing apples and apple-shaped rocks.

[Nighteye2]

Sartheris wrote...
seriously people, what kind of role players are you, to slaughter and entire clan of elves just to make the werewolves your allies ?

I didn't. I just figured Zathrian should publicly confess his crimes and atone for his sins, in front of his clan. So I brought the werewolves to the clan to force him to end the curse, in front of his people. That makes perfect roleplaying sense even for a good guy.

But sadly, he refuses to listen to reason in that situation and so you're forced to defend yourself...thus ending up with the werewolves as a good guy.

[Napalm Jim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...
For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

Yes, because leaving them to die slowly is much better.

Branka may be completely bonkers, but she has a point.

Those aren't the only two options for the dwarves
 
At the end of my game (at my funeral) King Alistair said that he would be sending troops to help support the dwarves in Orzammar against the darkspawn.  Getting help from the Alistair sounds like a better scenario to me than the golem one.

[Herr Uhl]

And how long would the humans send troops before they decide that darkspawn are a dwarven problem again?



One generation is not nearly enough to restore the dwarves or destroying the darkspawn.

[MOTpoetryION]

Well to tell the truth in every story i ever read i have always liked the elves. but these elves were b itches and rude that i went with the werewolfs .So really it was their fault not mine. Imo, buy as much elfroot as you can before you do.

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:09 .

[Napalm Jim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And how long would the humans send troops before they decide that darkspawn are a dwarven problem again?

One generation is not nearly enough to restore the dwarves or destroying the darkspawn.

Alright, let's assume that Alistair is the only one that gives a hoot about the dwarves and that any support from the humans will dry up in about 30 years, give or take.

During this span of time there would be much fewer casualties to the deep roads and with a superior military force coupled with the weakening of the darkspawn from the last Blight, they could even push further into the deep roads, claiming back quite a bit of lost territory.  It would give them time to put fortifications in place for the future and there might even be the Dwarven equivical to a "baby boom" in Orzammar, since more dwarves would actually be surviving to raise families.

Sure, 30 years of aid isn't gonna wipe out all the darkspawn everywhere, but it'd do wonders towards helping the dwarves get back on their feet again. 

And also, converting the populace to golems isn't a guarantee for victory.  Best case scenario would have the dwarves achieving a pyrrhic victory at the cost of their own lives and freedom, which sort of makes winning meaningless at that point.  Also, do you really think that with someone like Branka manning the Anvil that it would truly be used only on volunteers?

[Crunchyinmilk]

Zathrian fought so hard to avoid getting what was coming to him. Its unfortunate that balance came at the cost of more innocent lives but it was necessary. I tried to make them see what kind of leader Zathrian was, but none would hear it. Despite their own experiences of persecution, they supported Zathrian's guidance and his methods. They learned the cost, and Zathrian was witness to it.



Removing Zathrian alone would not restore balance. The curse might end for the current werewolves, but what about all those who suffered before them? Not all of Zathrian's people might have supported the actions taken against the werewolves but they did nothing to stop it and never questioned Zathrian. That made them party to it and subject to the consequences.

[DPSSOC]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And how long would the humans send troops before they decide that darkspawn are a dwarven problem again?

One generation is not nearly enough to restore the dwarves or destroying the darkspawn.

Well if Alistair is King and has no children he will no doubt appoint someone to be his successor, this person will most likely be of a like mind and keep the train going.  If he does have children they will most likely be of a like mind, they may even be Grey Wardens at birth, and they will keep the train going.  As long as someone regularly reminds people that it's only a matter of time before the Darkspawn find a new Archdemon and it becomes a human problem again, which with the Grey Wardens having the support of the King seems likely that they'll get back to their old numbers and be in a position to remind people, the train will keep going.

Now in the event that Alistair produces no heir and the Banns do not accept him appointing a successor the train stops dead because Alistair is the end of the Theirin bloodline.  This will result in 1 major debate, do they go back through family history to determine which Noble family has the closest blood relation to king Calenhad, ala Andoran Succession from Wheel of Time, or do they appoint a new king by merit.  However this debate resolves itself it will lead to a second debate over who.  On and on this will go all the while the nobility ignoring their duties to the people and the whole country going to hell in a hand basket.  Eventually a decision will be made and that king will find facing a blight a pleasant reprieve from trying to clear out bandit lords and other deviant organizations that develop whenever people stop paying attention.

That of course is assuming the more powerful lords don't just split the country amongst themselves with the two Teryns taking the largest portions and a few Arls and Banns with small holdings because their positions are too easily defensible to make an attempted conquest worthwhile at this point.

Personally I force Zathrian to end the curse because it means that bastard dies for trying to manipulate me and I don't have to worry about werewolves deciding to turn on me, I hold no fear of the Dalish.  The one playthrough I sided with the werewolves I was actually playing an evil Dalish and really what's more evil than siding against and slaughtering your own people.

[Herr Uhl]

Napalm Jim wrote...

Alright, let's assume that Alistair is the only one that gives a hoot about the dwarves and that any support from the humans will dry up in about 30 years, give or take.

During this span of time there would be much fewer casualties to the deep roads and with a superior military force coupled with the weakening of the darkspawn from the last Blight, they could even push further into the deep roads, claiming back quite a bit of lost territory.  It would give them time to put fortifications in place for the future and there might even be the Dwarven equivical to a "baby boom" in Orzammar, since more dwarves would actually be surviving to raise families.

Sure, 30 years of aid isn't gonna wipe out all the darkspawn everywhere, but it'd do wonders towards helping the dwarves get back on their feet again. 

And also, converting the populace to golems isn't a guarantee for victory.  Best case scenario would have the dwarves achieving a pyrrhic victory at the cost of their own lives and freedom, which sort of makes winning meaningless at that point.  Also, do you really think that with someone like Branka manning the Anvil that it would truly be used only on volunteers?

I see keeping the anvil as a safer gamble on the dwarven race than the word from a minor human king in a land ravaged by a blight. It is a risk giving it to Branka, but if she could be put into check, you can solve the problem.

That Alastair would become king (I did not know he was an heir at that point) and grant dwarves reinforcements is a big unknown at that point, by the way.

[Sidney]

MOTpoetryION wrote...

Well to tell the truth in every story i ever read i have always liked the elves. but these elves were b itches and rude that i went with the werewolfs .So really it was their fault not mine. Imo, buy as much elfroot as you can before you do.

My human smoked the Elves...humans are anti-eleven bigots and my guy was no better than the rest. Knife-ears gotta die.

[PaladinZero]

Well, on my last playthrough (managed to kill about half my party in the name of achievements...very wrong of me, I admit) the dwarves were kidnapping surfacers to fuel their golem army. This is just begging for trouble. While the dwarves resent the topsiders, they do supplement the economy quite a bit and having a human army at your front gates making sure you stop taking people means that at the least the trade has ended, making some upset that their ventures are impossible, and at most means that the golems would have to be split to fight both darkspawn and surfacers.



As for the werewolves, what they wanted was an end to the curse, not revenge or justice. No matter how many times I come to that part, I always choose to free them. Lanaya is more capable a leader, it is just that some believe that Zathrian has somehow learned to be a purer elf because of his long life, which is enabled by the curse. That is why no one will speak out against him, he is the hero and example of all the Dalish and of their old ways. Even if they knew, most would not care and agree with Zathrian because they are racist because of the treatment they have suffered at the hands of humans. Lanaya can actually work with humans in the interest of her people, rather than Zathrian who is just waiting for the human armies to rain destruction on him and his people if the humans found out about the werewolves and the cause.

[RockGnasher]

elves arent cool anymore in this game. They got transformed by the alchemical powers of humanity into garbage.

[Cybercat999]

I dont have to have a reason to be evil when I want to.

I really enjoyed killing them all finally instead of having to talk to them ad nauseatum.

[The Angry One]

Okay those of you who think that the human support of the dwarves vs. the darkspawn would last for any significant time clearly don't know us humans too well.

As soon as the darkspawn are confined to the deep roads again, people will become complacent, and Alistair doesn't rule with absolute power. The Freeholders will ultimately influence his decisions.



There will be increasing apathy with the dwarven situation, leading to people asking why human troops are being sent off to die for a cause nobody cares about. And believe me, they won't care.

Permanent expeditions that result in a continual drain of manpower with no tangible benefits in return have never worked. Ever.



So yes, the dwarves will be on their own, and without the Anvil they will die off eventually.

If they're lucky.

[mousestalker]

Actually the hardened Alistair would fight the war with soldiers from houses he didn't trust. That weakens his enemies, which is always good. And so long as he has enemies then the aid to Orzammar continues. If you pick Bhelen to be the dwarf king, who do you think he sends to fight the Blight? Listen to the convos in Orzammar after Bhelen ascends the throne.

Also, Bhelen without golems still manages to expand. Nothing being certain, they may contract after time, but it's somewhat hopeful.

Finally, the single best thing you can do to help the dwarves is to resolutely ignore Brother Berkel (sp?). Any interaction with him ends badly.

Modifié par mousestalker, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[philippe willaume]

Galad22 wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

For the precise same reason that you come very close to destroying the Dwarven Race (and actually do enslave them) to have Golems on your side.

It is little diffferent though, on golems case you know that you can have them because Branka promises. But you have absolutely no indication that werewolfes would care to join you in fight against blight after you kill elves. Certainly not before you make the suggestion.

So on a roleplaying aspect it is just chaotic stupid.

No, you are just using the Rumsfeldian logic in your rationalisation that siding with the werewolves’ chaotic stupid and the siding with Branca is chaotic smart.
 
Now who would you trust and spirit forest, that beggs you to lift the curse and has demonstrated an understanding of Cartesian logic or ranting deluded megalomaniac lunatic shortarse who is so close to her goal that she would say and probably do  anything?
 
The answer to both question metagaming (aka save and reload if I do not like the out come)
 
That being said, I got sided with elves when I really lifted the curse and so resolved the situation to both parties satisfaction i.e. not really siding with anyone.