141 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Alistair may be a direct descendant of Calenhad, but that doesn't really mean anything. Anora can rule Ferelden perfectly well on her own, and considering Cailan's inability to rule, she apparently was during the entirety of their marriage. Considering how Calenhad brought together the warring teyrnirs of Ferelden with the aid of Aldenon the Great, and then betrayed him, I don't see why anyone thinks the royal line should be respected.

If by "perfectly well" you mean "overreacting to elven unrest and either launching another purge or just killing off the rioters," then yes. Anora's competent, certainly, but needs Alistair's moral compass to balance out her own ruthlessness.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anora's competent, certainly, but needs Alistair's moral compass to balance out her own ruthlessness.

It's not an issue of being ruthless, it's an issue of Alistair understanding their plight because he was not raised in privlege; Anora is a noble, she doesn't understand what the elves are going through in the Alienage, while Alistair correctly surmises that their conditions could change if the elves had representation. Anora builds a university (in a loosely medieval setting) and refills the royal coffers while Alistair gives the elves a seat at the royal court in the face of controversy, because his move is unprecedented in the history of Ferelden.

Anora isn't incompetent, but she isn't perfect either. However, it seems like many conflate their own bias against Anora with her ability to rule. I don't claim Anora handled the Alienage well, but she is ignorant of their trials and tribulations as a noble. Alistair isn't, because he understands what it's like not to live the life of a noble. It's why I think, together, they make up for the other's flaws. That said, she is just as willing as Alistair to help improve the lot of the mages, and she initially relaxed conditions for the Alienage, so she certainly wants to see progress being made.

[General User]

ladyofpayne wrote...

But Alistair deserves queen better than Anora.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  But Alistair is a King, and a good one.  As such, his needs, his wants, and what he deserves often have to take a back seat to what's best for his Realm.  And, what's best for Ferelden is for Alistair and Anora to rule as King and Queen.  They make a fantastic team.

Modifié par General User, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[Dave of Canada]

King Cousland and Queen Anora are the superior leadership, leading Ferelden to the glorious future without the blood of Calenhad to blind the nobility. King Cousland is only missing because he's composing the new anthem in secret with Loghain.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .

[Silfren]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ladyofpayne wrote...

Also Emperess Celine much better ruler than Anora. Emperess biuld Univerity in Orlais.

There seems to be a lot of hate directed at Anora because people dislike her personality.  Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but it's a bit silly to conflate a person's personality with her ability to rule.  Disliking someone as a person really needs to be divorced from an assessment of their capabilities.

Objectively, Anora is a good ruler.  She may be a disagreeable PERSON, as far as her tendency to be a manipulator and a liar, but the available evidence rather strongly indicates that she is a very, very good ruler.  

She even acknowledges the distinction herself between being a good person and a good ruler when she makes the statement, "What Ferelden needs isn't another good man, but a strong ruler."  She's aware that there's a difference between being good and being strong, and realizes that sometimes the two are necessarily exclusive.

It would be nice to see interactions between these two queens, if the story were to go in a direction that allowed us to see Empress Celene and Queen Anora working together for the mutual benefit of both their lands.

Just don't get in her way! Does Ferelden really needs a strong ruler? Like Arland?

Even if she really is a very, very good ruler then why does she seems to agree with Loghain's way. She doesn't oppose him that much but seems to just give in to him. That does not bode well for Ferelden if you ask me.

A good person can just as well be a good ruler. To unite through fear earns you not respect for your personality but only respect for the strenth of your arm and your ability not to be honest.
To unite through respect for your people's diversity is a far better way which will earn you a voluntary chosen loyalty and not one out of fear.

I for one would NOT be loyal to a person as Anora - I'd rather leave Ferelden! That she even has a statue of Loghain put up in his honor if she is made queen says it all!

"Yes Dad - I know you killed my husband, blamed others for the deed and hunted them like dogs but anyway thank you for the crown!"

Firstly, Arland's "strength" is hardly the only kind of strength to be had.  I never once said that strength is synonymous with tyranny.  That was what you brought to the discussion.  It is true enough that sometime being a strong ruler does mean making unpleasant decisions, but that doesn't necessarily require being a complete and  total ****hole.  The Stolen Throne dealt with that theme to a small degree.

That said, I find Anora to be a more complex person than she is here credited for.  The only time she was ever shown as giving in to him was early in the game, following the chaos of the battle of Ostagar and the loss of her husband.  It's perfectly natural that at the early stage, she might have believed her father made a difficult and unpopular but necessary choice.  Given how highly she esteemed her father, that's to be expected.  But we also see that over the course of time, she recognized her father's madness as destroying the country.  It cannot be claimed that she was meekly going along with her father if you watch several of the cutscenes where she interacts with him regarding the civil war and his intransigence over the idea of seeking aid from Orlais.  And in the end she actively worked against him, she didn't just "give in".  That is plain to be seen during the scenes just prior to and during the Landsmeet.  Take note that I'm not saying anything about her motives for doing so, or disregarding that certain choices by the Warden can result in Anora betraying her promise of support to the Warden to instead support her father.  By what Anora is motivated is irrelevant to the fact that she does indeed oppose Loghain because she can clearly see what his actions are doing to Ferelden. 

A good person CAN be a good ruler, sure.  But it is not exactly unusual for the actions of a good ruler to be entirely distinct from the actions of a good man.  The job of ruling an entire nation of people and having to see to that nation's long term success can, will, and DOES occasionally require that one's personal goodness be set aside for a brutal choice.  It isn't possible to rule a nation for many years without being forced sometimes to make decisions that will make some people hate you.

I don't think Anora unites and rules through fear.  Again, I'm not saying that to be a strong ruler requires that one be a complete, raging, full-out tyrant.  I just acknowledge that many times, what the popular idea is of being a good person is exclusive to being a strong person.  Again, The Stolen Throne addresses this, although not as much as I would like.  And you do see the concept referenced during the Landsmeet portion of the game.  

I don't at all think that Anora put up a statue of her father in that particular choice-based slide because she was grateful to him for the crown.  This is, I think, another example of people not having a clue how very REAL Anora is.  Real human beings are complex, and Anora is very, very realized.  She hated the things her father had done when she came to understand the degree of his paranoia, and she opposed him in order to save Ferelden, but she loved him all the same, and remembered the man he had once been.  There's nothing at all unusual or strange about that, and I think it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "Hey Dad, thank you for the crown!"

[Silfren]

ladyofpayne wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ladyofpayne wrote...

Also Emperess Celine much better ruler than Anora. Emperess biuld Univerity in Orlais.

Queen Anora has the same plan to build a university in Denerim, and Empress Celene spoke highly of Anora, saying, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles."

I think we might have to deal with a civil war in Orlais, although it's possible one faction might have ambitions to invade the neighboring nation of Ferelden.

Before or after she tried to steal her crown and her husband? 

In medieval it was usual. Anora love Kailan because of his crown nothing more.

What exactly are you basing this on?  Not the game, definitely, because the evidence given in the game indicates that Anora was quite fond of Cailan for himself.  They were betrothed as children, so they both grew up with the understanding that they would be husband and wife one day.  It's clear that Anora didn't have a lot of faith in her husband's rulership abilities, but it is also pretty evident, I think that she cared for him.  From the game lore, we have it that it was an actual arrangement between the two that Cailan would allow Anora to rule in his stead, because she enjoyed the job of aministrating Ferelden, whereas Cailan did not.  It wasn't a situation that rose up just because Cailan absentmindedly neglected his duties and forced Anora to take up the slack--they PLANNED it this way and both were happy with the arrangement. 

From Anora's own mouth we hear her speak of Cailan fondly.  She may have thought him lacking in the rulership department and she considered him foolish, but neither opinion means that she didn't love him.  She speaks of him fondly and with sadness that he is gone.  I suppose you could argue that Anora is lying, but given that she speaks of him without either condemning him or fawning over him, I don't think so.  She speaks as one who has a firmly realistic understanding that people have both strengths and shortcomings, and judges them in full view of both, not erasing one or the other.

[ladyofpayne]

'Better? She wants to build a university - the first of its kind in Ferelden - and she manages to refill the royal coffers. I think she's an excellent Queen.'

Anora so blind of her crown that she can betray her own father. She will also betray Warden who resqued her when she want Treirin throne. She forget about death of her husband because father give her a throne.
She just possesed her lust for power, Maker she will just kill Alistair if he will try to do anything that she don't want him doing.  
Cailan want to divorce her and marry Celine, I am for him.  Anora is a snake.  

Rulers like her, who want power for themselves alway do worse their people.
Alistair want to be a king because he feels his duty to protect Ferelden.

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 28 juillet 2012 - 06:31 .

[MisterJB]

Good men have been terrible kings. And bad men have been excellent kings.
Anora is intelligent, conniving, political savvy. These are all traits a good king needs.

[ladyofpayne]

MisterJB wrote...

Good men have been terrible kings. And bad men have been excellent kings.
Anora is intelligent, conniving, political savvy. These are all traits a good king needs.

Calenhad was good men. He was terrible king?
I don't arguing with that- she is clever,experienced but still a backstabbing b*tch. Fereldan deserves better queen, so in DA 3 I will execute her.
Also is she is so good queen where army her loyal fereldans? Only Warden can resue her. She didn't heve a comrades. 

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Good men have been terrible kings. And bad men have been excellent kings.
Anora is intelligent, conniving, political savvy. These are all traits a good king needs.

Bhelen certainly proves the second part of that statement true.

I'm neutral on Anora, really; I don't love her or hate her, but she's a useful leader, made more useful by the inclusion of Alistair.

[ladyofpayne]

"Bhelen certainly proves the second part of that statement true."
Bhelen made a great deal- he get Untochables chances to be like any dwarves.
Anora don't give mages freedom or elves human rights.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I really like Anora, I love how she lies about the Warden if the Warden decides to put Alistair. She knows that in the game of thrones you win or you die. I tend to make Alistair and Anora marry so we get the best of both worlds a good ruler and royal blood but if I had to choose one I'd choose Anora. Alistair may be a good, compassionate man but he's too indecisive to be a good ruler. I don't think he has it in him to make the tough decisions, that's why he lets the Warden lead even though he's been a grey warden longer.

[erilben]

ladyofpayne wrote...
Anora don't give mages freedom or elves human rights.

What are you even talking about? Unlike Alistair, Anora will grant the Ferelden Circle boon. It maybe a bug, but you can't get the boon to work under Alistair.

[Merela]

Calenhad was a bad king, yes. To unify a land is a thing, to lose everything because you're unable to keep your pants on is another. He killed his greatest ally and the civil war was on the edge of explose again when he vanished. It's his son who is credited to have established the Theirin dynasty, not him.

Modifié par Merela, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:13 .

[SafetyShattered]

I'd probably go with Ferelden. However if Ferelden was at fault for the war or they were the "bad" guys then I'd probably side with Orlais.

[ladyofpayne]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

I really like Anora, I love how she lies about the Warden if the Warden decides to put Alistair. She knows that in the game of thrones you win or you die. I tend to make Alistair and Anora marry so we get the best of both worlds a good ruler and royal blood but if I had to choose one I'd choose Anora. Alistair may be a good, compassionate man but he's too indecisive to be a good ruler. I don't think he has it in him to make the tough decisions, that's why he lets the Warden lead even though he's been a grey warden longer.

Alistair become decisive if he become the king. 
Really, you like woman who bacstab your character? A victim type of person?

[Merela]

Anora only "backstabs" Wardens stupid enough for telling "This is the queen, uhr uhr" to Cauthrien after Anora especially asked him/her to help her to keep a low profile, and Wardens stupid enough for telling her "I'm going to kill your Dad just because I can, uhr uhr".

...sure, what an awful character.

Modifié par Merela, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:52 .

[Shadowvalker]

I am still against Anora - a backstabbing ruler - I know she's not the first or last - but that she is able to rule the land still doesn't gives her the right to the throne!

But maybe I am old-fashioned and need to change - so lets do it the pro-Anora way - the apprentices in workshops and stores - rebel and take over the stores even if they aren't yours!
Shepherd run away with the owners sheep - if you are better at looking after the flok - you are justified!

Oh - who needs laws.....?

[Sarcastic Tasha]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Alistair become decisive if he become the king. 
Really, you like woman who bacstab your character? A victim type of person?

There's not really much evidence that he'll become decisive before you choose to make him king though (unless he's hardened, then its hinted) so you can only know he'll be a good ruler by metagaming.
I've not had a warden that tells Anora that she wants to make Alistair king so I've only seen that scene on my sister's playthrough. So it just made me think good on Anora for being clever. I like strong female characters so I like Anora.

[Dintonta]

Just thinking about it...
It would be nice if DA3 gave us the chance to launch a revolution in Ferelden, to exterminate all those bloody useless nobles (I propose Slim Couldry as attorney of the new Fereldan Republic. He has a few bothersome non-violent principles, but nothing that a good blood magic mind control couldn't twist.)
Afterward we could move on Orlais and exploit the civil war to support a popular uprising (given how the chevaliers are beloved, it shouldn't be too difficult.)

During the whole Landsmeet affair in DA:O, I really dreamt it could be an option to shut the doors tight, wipe out everybody inside, and put the blame on Bann Ceorlic (planting false evidences and all...)
The whole country was so scared by the Blight then, I think that really wouldn't have made any difference. A lost opportunity...(Sigh)
(I would have been forced to keep Alistair alive, tough, to sacrifice him to the AD...)

Modifié par Dintonta, 28 juillet 2012 - 08:24 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Orlais is gonna ****ing suck. Does anyone remember Majoleine? What a terrible accent. Now imagine everyone in the game sounding like her.

[Dintonta]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Orlais is gonna ****ing suck. Does anyone remember Majoleine? What a terrible accent. Now imagine everyone in the game sounding like her.

For a guy who seems to have a "<3Sexy Leli Forever<3" branded on the skin, you sound a bit strange, do you know?

[The Hierophant]

Dintonta wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Orlais is gonna ****ing suck. Does anyone remember Majoleine? What a terrible accent. Now imagine everyone in the game sounding like her.

For a guy who seems to have a "<3Sexy Leli Forever<3" branded on the skin, you sound a bit strange, do you know?

Tbh, Leliana's accent didn't bother me as much as Marjolaine's did. If you combine that with her arrogance, which also describes 90% of the Orlesian's we have encountered, i kind of agree.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[Dintonta]

The Hierophant wrote...
Tbh, Leliana's accent didn't bother me as much as Marjolaine's did...

Can you really blame her just because she tries her best pronouncing all those dam' Fereldan words that are meant for aliens mouths only (I mean, just look at your avatar, Hehehe!)

...If you combine that with her arrogance, which also describes 90% of the Orlesian's we have encountered, i kind of agree.

Tourists always behave differently than people at home... (Marjolaine went to visit Denerim, no?)
And Fereldans didn't strike me as very humble, either...

Modifié par Dintonta, 29 juillet 2012 - 08:16 .

[M_Kirkwall]

Oh my god, why not just marry Anora to Alistair(hardened)? So Anora rules the way she wants - what is good for Fereldan - while Alistair becomes the good-king and rules jointly with a mastermind.