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[obZen DF]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

obZen DF wrote...

See, that's exactly why I think Ashley is one of the more 'realistic' characters in ME.
On Horizon, you can hear the doubts in Ashley's voice. She wants to believe, but just can't, for obvious reasons.
And that's what most people in real life would do too.

I have a few points to raise about that.

Firstly, she doesn't really try to understand or check whether it's still shepard. Just says her bit then leaves.
Next time you see her she is all "i guess i just need time to get to know you again".
Unfortunatly Ashley, the time i did have available to waste on such exploits you spent your time ignoring me.
Now is neither the time or place, don't go quarian on us.

Secondly, everyone else says how they distrust cerberus, but will join for shepard. Ashley can't seem to seperate the two. Even if you take familiar faces with you to horizen, she still says the same thing.

I did like Ashley before ME3. I despised Kaidan, he was irritating. ME3 Ashley really makes me question my decision though.

Well, you can hear the emotion in Ashley's voice. Just like when you are arguing with your girl/boyfriend. You're mad and say your bit and when it's over you start thinking about what you said, and if it could've been said differently. I think that's what Ashley was doing. She needed time.

And for your second argument: Not everyone is the same, or think the same. You can say that Garrus and Tali join you, because they join for Shepard. But that doesn't mean Ashley must do the same. Different persons, different believes, different choices.

[v TricKy v]

obZen DF wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

obZen DF wrote...

See, that's exactly why I think Ashley is one of the more 'realistic' characters in ME.
On Horizon, you can hear the doubts in Ashley's voice. She wants to believe, but just can't, for obvious reasons.
And that's what most people in real life would do too.

I have a few points to raise about that.

Firstly, she doesn't really try to understand or check whether it's still shepard. Just says her bit then leaves.
Next time you see her she is all "i guess i just need time to get to know you again".
Unfortunatly Ashley, the time i did have available to waste on such exploits you spent your time ignoring me.
Now is neither the time or place, don't go quarian on us.

Secondly, everyone else says how they distrust cerberus, but will join for shepard. Ashley can't seem to seperate the two. Even if you take familiar faces with you to horizen, she still says the same thing.

I did like Ashley before ME3. I despised Kaidan, he was irritating. ME3 Ashley really makes me question my decision though.

Well, you can hear the emotion in Ashley's voice. Just like when you are arguing with your girl/boyfriend. You're mad and say your bit and when it's over you start thinking about what you said, and if it could've been said differently. I think that's what Ashley was doing. She needed time.

And for your second argument: Not everyone is the same, or think the same. You can say that Garrus and Tali join you, because they join for Shepard. But that doesn't mean Ashley must do the same. Different persons, different believes, different choices.

Ashley/Kaidan joining you would also be treason because there are still part of the Alliance. Garrus and Tali dont have that problem.

[krasnoarmeets]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.

"Look, if you're fighting a bear, and your only way to survive is to sic your dog at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog it isn't human. It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are."

This is a terrible metaphor if you're trying not to make yourself seem racist. Comparing other species to that of a dog doesn't fit the definition of racist?

This analogy stinks of racism. Her attitude does change noticeably during the game.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .

[aTrueFool]

iakus wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

iakus wrote...

You realize humanity is the dog in the analogy, right?

As for her trust:  Ash trusts persons.  It's people she has a problem with

Right, and that is why she says "as much as you love your dog it isn´t human". Why would she say that if she was talking about other races opinons of humanity and not how humanity should act (btw: I actually agree with the other species in the game; humanity do act like pushy bullies who apparantely can´t see how much they have gained compared to many other species).

because she's talking to Shepard.  A human.

"As much as you love your varren, it isn't a krogan" just wouldn't work as well

But her point is, all races, human and alien, will look to themselves first in a crisis.  Ash was neither condemning them nor praising them for that outlook.  It's a simple survival instinct:  look to your own people before helping others. 

And ME3 proves she was right.  The other races were perfectly willing to let Earth get eaten by the Reapers while it bought them time to build up their own defenses.   Humanity (the dog) was left to fight the bear (reapers)

It still works.

"Look, if you're fighting a thresher maw, and your only way to survive is to sic your varren at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your varren it isn't krogan. It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than krogan are."

or

"Look, if you're fighting a rachni, and your only way to survive is to sic your krogan at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your krogan it isn't asari or salarian."

or

"Look, if you're fighting a krogan, and your only way to survive is to sic your turian at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your turian it isn't asari or salarian."

or even

"Look, if you're fighting a reaper, and your only way to survive is to sic your asari, salarian, turian, krogan and human at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your asari, salarian, turian, krogan and human they aren't prothean."

[DirtySHISN0]

obZen DF wrote...

Well, you can hear the emotion in Ashley's voice. Just like when you are arguing with your girl/boyfriend. You're mad and say your bit and when it's over you start thinking about what you said, and if it could've been said differently. I think that's what Ashley was doing. She needed time.

And for your second argument: Not everyone is the same, or think the same. You can say that Garrus and Tali join you, because they join for Shepard. But that doesn't mean Ashley must do the same. Different persons, different believes, different choices.

She did say she heard rumors about shepard being alive and with cerberus, but had to see it to believe it.
Then when she sees it, she can't believe it.
Its annoying that she doesn't give shepard the chance to explain, then if she isn't given the chance to explain on mars or in the hospital she gets all ratty. Its reciprical Ashley, it works both ways.

I guess my biggest gripe is how they boxed her into a corner in ME3 and the fact that auto dialogue and the speech "options" box you in the same way.

[Iakus]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.

"Look, if you're fighting a bear, and your only way to survive is to sic your dog at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog it isn't human. It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are."

This is a terrible metaphor if you're trying not to make yourself seem racist. Comparing other species to that of a dog doesn't fit the definition of racist?

This analogy stinks of racism. Her attitude does change noticeably during the game.

::sigh::  Nobody looks past the dog, do they?  They don't realize humans are the dog.

She doesn't think humans are superior.  Never, ever in the entire trilogy does she say that!

She thinks humans should lookout fro their own interests first, because others will do the same.

She doesn't think humans are superior to aliens, just that aliens are not human, so when push comes to shove and you can't save everyone, humans should try to save other humans first.  Because asari will try to save the asari first.  And the turians will save other turians first.  And so on.

That's what the analogy means!!!!!!

[Asguardwolf]

She just annoying, made a new play through and killed her in ME1 just so I could get through ME2 and ME3 without her best game ever.

[DPSSOC]

knightnblu wrote...
In ME2 she directly accuses you of treason and treats you as if you were lower than whale excrement. Why?

 
Because that's the most sensible assumption to make?  I mean let's take a step back from what we know and look at this objectively.  Is it more likely that A) Shepard has been dead for 2 years until Cerberus managed to accomplish the impossible and bring you back to life, or  Shepard faked his/her death and has been working for Cerberus for 2 years?  We know Shepard's been actually dead, but can you really expect people to just accept that?

As far as Ash knows you've been missing for 2 years, the Alliance has had no contact with you, and you are working for a terrorist organization.  You are guilty of treason.  The Council points out that what you're doing is treason, they don't charge you, but it still is what it is.  Lieutenant Commander Shepard, N7 Systems Alliance Marine and Citadel Special Tactics and Reconnaisance Operative is guilty, by any and all measures, of treason.

Yes Garrus, Tali, and Wrex accept it at face value but let's look at these characters for a moment.  Tali, when you first meet her, doesn't trust you without question.  She's initially disbelieving that one you're alive and two you're working with Cerberus, she's not ready to jump on the Shepard wagon right away.  It's only after you save her on Haestrom that she trusts you because you've repeatedly demonstrated that Cerberus or no you're still the same Shepard.  You never get that opportunity with Ashley because after the initial meeting you don't have the opportunity to interact with her again, for you to demonstrate that you're still you despite siding with Cerberus.

Garrus and Wrex are actually simpler, they just don't care.  Garrus doesn't care who he's working for or with so long as he feels he's doing good.  He's willing to ignore Cerberus initially because you rescue him, and once he finds out what you're gunning for it doesn't matter.  The Illusive Man probably could have approached him directly and gotten much the same response.  Wrex simply doesn't care period.  He's a career mercenary used to shifting allegiance as necessity or opportunity dictate.  You were with the Alliance and now you're with Cerberus, either the Alliance didn't serve your purposes anymore or Cerberus offered better pay, it's all the same to him.

Again Ashley doesn't have either of these advantages, she cares very deeply about who and what she's fighting for and doesn't have the same flexibility of allegiance.

iakus wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.

"Look, if you're fighting a bear, and your only way to survive is to sic your dog at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog it isn't human. It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are."

This is a terrible metaphor if you're trying not to make yourself seem racist. Comparing other species to that of a dog doesn't fit the definition of racist?

This analogy stinks of racism. Her attitude does change noticeably during the game.

::sigh:: Nobody looks past the dog, do they? They don't realize humans are the dog.

She doesn't think humans are superior. Never, ever in the entire trilogy does she say that!

She thinks humans should lookout fro their own interests first, because others will do the same.

She doesn't think humans are superior to aliens, just that aliens are not human, so when push comes to shove and you can't save everyone, humans should try to save other humans first. Because asari will try to save the asari first. And the turians will save other turians first. And so on.

That's what the analogy means!!!!!!

Just give it up man, they don't want to accept that that's what she was getting at the same way they don't want to accept that all 3 games prove her right. Same with the aliens and animals comment, because you can tell at first glance that the gorillaphant and the flying jelly fish are intelligent.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:41 .

[TheHoneyRuns]

I'm not going to lie, I haven't read the posts in this thread beyond the OP's, and if it's devolved into a flame war, that's unfortunate.

But I for one fully agree with OP and furthermore, if there was a little pin or medal that read, "I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite thread title on the BSN," and if I were in possession of such a pin or medal, I would then bequeath that pin/medal to you, OP.

Ashley is an alcoholic, xenophobic jerk who didn't appreciate the constant friendship my paragon FemShep offered.

EDIT- Well, I may not have that pin/medal, but I was just awarded 10 internets by Ticonderoga117 on another thread (I've been given a few of these before, they seem to be some form of currency amongst the interweb) and while I do not fully comprehend what these things are, I have come to understand that they hold value. So I'm going to give you three of these, OP. There. Good times.

Modifié par TheHoneyRuns, 26 juillet 2012 - 12:03 .

[DevilBeast]

TobiTobsen wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

iakus wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

iakus wrote...

You realize humanity is the dog in the analogy, right?

As for her trust:  Ash trusts persons.  It's people she has a problem with

Right, and that is why she says "as much as you love your dog it isn´t human". Why would she say that if she was talking about other races opinons of humanity and not how humanity should act (btw: I actually agree with the other species in the game; humanity do act like pushy bullies who apparantely can´t see how much they have gained compared to many other species).

because she's talking to Shepard.  A human.

"As much as you love your varren, it isn't a krogan" just wouldn't work as well

But her point is, all races, human and alien, will look to themselves first in a crisis.  Ash was neither condemning them nor praising them for that outlook.  It's a simple survival instinct:  look to your own people before helping others. 

And ME3 proves she was right.  The other races were perfectly willing to let Earth get eaten by the Reapers while it bought them time to build up their own defenses.   Humanity (the dog) was left to fight the bear (reapers)

Yeah, and humanity were quite willing to ignore the fact those same species
they asked for help are being attacked by the reapers themselves. Should they just leave their own planet to get eaten by the reapers just because humanity think they are more important??

And hey! I loved that varren! I was really sad when I realized I couldn´t bring him onboard the Normandy:(

Soo... you're saying that Ashley is a racist because she said that humanity should look after itself first and then defend the other races for doing the exact same thing?

Double standard much?

I was only responding to the sentiment I seem to encounter on this forum, that the other species are egocentrical and should have helped humanity from the beginning eventhough they had their own problems to struggle with.

Ashley might not be a racist in the true sense of the word, as I mentioned with the conversation between her and Tali, but some of the things she said can easily be interpreted as xenophobic which i find unfortunate. 

[shepdog77]

Found a pic from her academy years...

[DevilBeast]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

obZen DF wrote...

See, that's exactly why I think Ashley is one of the more 'realistic' characters in ME.
On Horizon, you can hear the doubts in Ashley's voice. She wants to believe, but just can't, for obvious reasons.
And that's what most people in real life would do too.

I have a few points to raise about that.

Firstly, she doesn't really try to understand or check whether it's still shepard. Just says her bit then leaves.
Next time you see her she is all "i guess i just need time to get to know you again".
Unfortunatly Ashley, the time i did have available to waste on such exploits you spent your time ignoring me.
Now is neither the time or place, don't go quarian on us.

Secondly, everyone else says how they distrust cerberus, but will join for shepard. Ashley can't seem to seperate the two. Even if you take familiar faces with you to horizen, she still says the same thing.

I did like Ashley before ME3. I despised Kaidan, he was irritating. ME3 Ashley really makes me question my decision though.

That sort of remind me of the conversation with Dr. Chakwas in ME3 where she stated that she didn´t work for Cerberus she worked for Shepard. But still, I can understand Ashley´s resentment in ME2, but I thought it started to become a bit stale in ME3.

[Zubie]

How do people constantly misinterpret that analogy? Nevermind 5 years later....

OP, I don't think tool means what you think it means.

[robertthebard]

obZen DF wrote...

iakus wrote...
Romanced Ash did love Shepard.  But is this man before her the same person?  Or some zombified abomination created by the Illusive Man, wearing her beloved's face, but empty and soulless inside?  She wants to believe, but is afraid to at the same time.  That's something people don't seem to realize.  We know Shepard is still Shepard.  Because we are Shepard.  But how are others' supposed to react?  Not everyone can be Tali or Garrus, who unquestioningly greet Shepard with open arms.

And while the drunk scene was amusing, I think I would have preferred to have her "What was dying like?" conversation instead.  Sadly, that was cut.

See, that's exactly why I think Ashley is one of the more 'realistic' characters in ME.
On Horizon, you can hear the doubts in Ashley's voice. She wants to believe, but just can't, for obvious reasons.
And that's what most people in real life would do too.

The obvious reason being you're with Cerberus, because until you share that, she's all cozy in Horizon.  She didn't have a problem accepting that you were there, and being a hero, until you say that.  The whole pre tram section of her distrusting you because you were dead scenario you lay out is all about how since you were with Cerberus, you must know why they're there.  Here's the thing, if she trusted you, as she claims to do, she'd let it go.  There are, after all, far more pressing concerns, you know, Reapers attacking Earth, and may be on Mars shortly, and Liara is caught in the middle.  I do love how the VS will be standing right there when Anderson gives you the order to go to the Citadel, and will ask "What's going on" as if they weren't.  They can stand right there and hear the conversation with Hackett, and question it too.  First and foremost, VS sees Anderson reinstate Shepard.  Shepard then outranks VS, and yet they feel they can question VS, just as James does, only James can get put in check, yet the VS has to Paragon/Renegade interrupt to tell them "On this ship, we follow orders".

[Trentest0]

Ashley: Is pissed off with Shepard cos of Cerberus, but forgives later on: what a *****

Kaidan: Does the same thing, completely fine.


Most of the arguements against Ashley applies to Kaidan as well, but no one seems to care when he does it. As for the racist thing? You can change her attitudes in ME1.

If you're gonna hate a character, hate one like Diana Allers, who has no character development whatsoever. Ashley is fine.

[Cyrax86]

In ME2
Tali - at first has trouble believing its truly Shep. She thanks Shep for turning over the quarian(can't remember his name). After haestrom joins Shep, tells Shep that she's there for Shep and not for Cerberus, Upgrades Normandy's cyclonic modulaters.

Ashley - Shep saves her life and a colony, thanks Shep by saying he turned his back on the Alliance, basically calling Shep a traitor.

ME3 Ashley - avoids Shep why, apology, admitting Shep was right about the collectors. Questions Shep about cutting ties with Cerberus while Shep is shooting Cerberus troops. Saves Ashley from Eva, you could've left her on mars. Points a gun at you(Citadel) how many times has Shep saved your life, and yet you still have to talk her down.

[Shallyah]

On the topic whether Ash is racist or not - while I do like Ashley and if not because of Tali she'd be my canon LI, Ashley is blatantly and outright racist, and it's more obvious in the first game. Just like Tali towards the Geth, both characters get influenced by Shepard and do evolve in ME2 and ME3 to be tolerant and even friendly to those they once despised.

There is one significant statement from Ashley when you first hit the Presidium in the Citadel with her in the squad in ME1: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals". This while there is a law that forbids pets in the Presidium.

Modifié par Shallyah, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[Zubie]

But Shepard was a traitor 

[Zubie]

Shallyah wrote...

both characters get influenced by Shepard and do evolve in ME2 and ME3 to be tolerant and even friendly to those they once despised.

 

Ashley never despised anyone. She just didn't initially trust them on the Alliance's prototype warship, and for good reason. 

Shallyah wrote... 
There is one significant statement from Ashley when you first hit the Presidium in the Citadel with her in the squad in ME1: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals". This while there is a law that forbids pets in the Presidium.

That is actually a bugged line and intended for the Keepers.

[General User]

DevilBeast wrote...

I was only responding to the sentiment I seem to encounter on this forum, that the other species are egocentrical and should have helped humanity from the beginning eventhough they had their own problems to struggle with.

That they could what they would when they should.  What the Council races did do with humanity from the beginning was engineer a conflict between us and the batarians, a race we (for obvious reasons) had no prior conflict with and had been a problem they had been unable to solve literally for centuries, hoping that we would solve the batarian problem without them having to get overtly involved.

In other words, they sic-ed us on the bear and ran.

Modifié par General User, 26 juillet 2012 - 12:27 .

[General User]

Shallyah wrote...

There is one significant statement from Ashley when you first hit the Presidium in the Citadel with her in the squad in ME1: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals". This while there is a law that forbids pets in the Presidium.

Not all animals are pets.  Many are working animals.

[obZen DF]

People just don't seem to realize what 'racist' means.
"Ah man, I hate Ashley!"
Ashley: "I can't tell the KEEPERS from the animals"
"My god, and she's a racist! RACIST!!! RAAAACIST!!!! I'm gonna make a topic about this."

That's Ashley haters' logic.

[Shallyah]

Right, be nitpicky all you want about bugs or no bugs. I haven't seen any evidence of that line being a bug. But alright. Put that aside. Now let's find excuses for Ashley's general attitude towards the aliens in the crew all through ME1, how she has to be told to stand down by Shepard himself when she makes racist comments to him, or how butthurt she is if you begin a romance with Liara "At least she looks like a woman".

She is racist, period. And I'll say again that I like her because unlike Liara and other characters, she actually does evolve, and feels like more than a teen nerd bait. But facts are facts. It's like saying that Tali isn't racist towards Geth in ME1. I love Tali, but I won't lie to myself.

[robertthebard]

easygame88 wrote...

But Shepard was a traitor 

To what?  The Alliance?  They declared Shepard dead, and then sent him on a solo mission that wound up causing Shepard to blow up a Mass Relay, and then hung him out to dry to save face.

The Galaxy?  Don't think so, since ME 1, the goal was finding a way to stop the Reapers, and while ME 2 wasted a lot of valuable time forcing you to work for Cerberus, you did at least go after the Collectors, and stop them from making a Human Reaper.

So no, Shepard was not a traitor.  VS's were tools for the way they acted.  Both could have, as far as I'm concerned, been left on Mars after Eva Bot's attack, and it wouldn't have taken anything away from the game, except some really annoying scenes in the Hospital, where I'm forced to believe that I was actually relieved that someone I would have shot myself, if I'd been given the chance, is actually going to survive.