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[Dranks]

This is a long thread, but does anyone ever call out Pressley for his "racism?" He feels the exact same way as Ashley does. He says he doesn't trust the aliens either, but I've seen a ton of people saying what a bro he was and stuff. I bet you anything if Ashley never had the religion conversation this wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue.

[Mathias]

Dranks wrote...

This is a long thread, but does anyone ever call out Pressley for his "racism?" He feels the exact same way as Ashley does. He says he doesn't trust the aliens either, but I've seen a ton of people saying what a bro he was and stuff. I bet you anything if Ashley never had the religion conversation this wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue.

Ashley really doesn't deserve a lot of the hate she gets. It's very annoying and it's obvious hate train bs.

[Blue Gloves]

Dranks wrote...

This is a long thread, but does anyone ever call out Pressley for his "racism?" He feels the exact same way as Ashley does. He says he doesn't trust the aliens either, but I've seen a ton of people saying what a bro he was and stuff. I bet you anything if Ashley never had the religion conversation this wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue.

You know- that could be true, in part.  I don't like people who beat me over the head w/ their religion- and while I don't think Ash did that- she did make me a bit uncomfoprtable when she brought it up.  My initial reaction IRL would've been a lolwut? deal followed by being embarrassed when I realized that she seriously DID believe in the magical spaghetti monster in the sky.  Maybe my bias affects my dislike of Ash, but I have friends who are devout in various religions, and a brother and a grandfather actually in the clergy and I still love them, so I think I could have gotten over it if not for the two infamous comments that effectively reduce all sentient, nonhuman life to mindless beasts.


"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" on the presiduim
"...as much as you love your dog, he's not a human..." on the Normandy

no matter how you try to explain those away- they are offensive, and if a present day equivalent of ash had said
"If you're being chased by a bear and you're w/ a frenchmen... because as much as you love your friend from France, he's just not an American"  her prejudice would probably not even be in dispute.

[Iakus]

Blue Gloves wrote...

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" on the presiduim

Again, shes's talking about the Keepers!  She only says that when you're close to one!  They look like big bugs and nobosy knows if they're sentient or not!

"...as much as you love your dog, he's not a human..." on the Normandy


no matter how you try to explain those away- they are offensive, and if a present day equivalent of ash had said
"If you're being chased by a bear and you're w/ a frenchmen... because as much as you love your friend from France, he's just not an American"  her prejudice would probably not even be in dispute.

"The cruel and unfortunaate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can prepare and regroup" Councilor Tevos

How racist did that sound?

Modifié par iakus, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[Blue Gloves]

iakus wrote...



"The cruel and unfortunaate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can prepare and regroup" Councilor Tevos

How racist did that sound?

Haha- I don't really see how that's relevant.  I never said Tevos wasn't racist, and since this a thread about Ashley, and not Tevos, it doesn't really matter what I think of the councilor.

edit:  I reread this and realize I sound a tad condescending- sorry, that wasn't the intent, but the point does stand- Tevos' actions don't impact or justify Ash's and since they weren't made in conjunction, they don't have significance to my earlier post.

Modifié par Blue Gloves, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[Iakus]

Blue Gloves wrote...

iakus wrote...



"The cruel and unfortunaate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can prepare and regroup" Councilor Tevos

How racist did that sound?

Haha- I don't really see how that's relevant.  I never said Tevos wasn't racist, and since this a thread about Ashley, and not Tevos, it doesn't really matter what I think of the councilor.

It is relevant because that's exactly how the bear and the dog analogy works.  In a crisis, the asari look to the asari first.  Turians will look to turians first.  Salarians to salarians and so on.  It doens't matter hwo much they might like or respect humanity, they aren't asari, turians, or salarians.  Aliens aren't the dogsin that comparison, humanity is.

Ash's analysis turned out to be 100% accurate.  That point seems to get missed a lot.

Edit:  I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

Modifié par iakus, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .

[Blue Gloves]

iakus wrote...

I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

You had me until the edit, but then I realized-The Asari councilor didn't reduce humans to mindless animals- she just said she wasn't going to take any action that didn't benefit her people first.  She's a politician, that's her job.  On the other hand, Ashley didn't just say that she was more interested in promoting humanity over the other species, she actively compared other sentient, intelligent life to dogs and animals.  The fact that se was referring to the Kepers doesn't do her any favors.  She saw a strange creature with every appearance of intelligence (it was working on a console remember) and made a derisive comment likening animals to aliens.  She had no idea that the Keepers weren't just another race at that point, she saw something other and reacted negatively to it.

Modifié par Blue Gloves, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[Iakus]

Blue Gloves wrote...

iakus wrote...

I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

You had me until the edit, but then I realized-The Asari councilor didn't reduce humans to mindless animals- she just said she wasn't going to take any action that didn't benefit her people first.  She's a politician, that's her job.  On the other hand, Ashley didn't just say that she was more interested in promoting humanity over the other species, she actively compared other sentient, intelligent life to dogs and animals.  The fact that se was referring to the Kepers doesn't do her any favors.  She saw a strange creature with every appearance of intelligence (it was working on a console remember) and made a derisive comment likening animals to aliens.  She had no idea that the Keepers weren't just another race at that point, she saw something other and reacted negatively to it.

Ash doesn't reduce aliens to that state either.  She's confused about Keepers.  Well, everyone is.  Remember Jahleed and Chorban?  And asking Avina about the Keepers sheds no light on their potential sentience either.

And again, humanity is the dog in the analogy.  Humans, not aliens.  The bear (Reapers) attacks the dog (humanity) so the hunter (Council races) lets the bear kill the dog so he can get away.  Whatever they may think of humanity, they won't risk themselves if hey think letting humanity fall gives them a better shot at surviving.

[Blue Gloves]

iakus wrote...



Ash doesn't reduce aliens to that state either.  She's confused about Keepers.  Well, everyone is.  Remember Jahleed and Chorban?  And asking Avina about the Keepers sheds no light on their potential sentience either.

Yes she does.  She states she'd never been on the citadel before, she'd never seen a Keeper, and she makes her comment before Avina explains them.  She sees a giant bug with a backpack working on a computer, and even though it is clearly displaying signs of intelligence, she still makes a snide comment and nevermind the fact that she should expect tosee other species in abundance while there since it's common knowledge that the citadel is home to the most diverse collection of species in the galaxy.

And again, humanity is the dog in the analogy.  Humans, not aliens.  The bear (Reapers) attacks the dog (humanity) so the hunter (Council races) lets the bear kill the dog so he can get away.  Whatever they may think of humanity, they won't risk themselves if hey think letting humanity fall gives them a better shot at surviving.

umm- yes, I thoroughly understand your point, thank you for explaining it to me, again, however.
Alas, understanding is not equivalent to agreement, (at no time does the councilor suggest that humanity is no better than a pack of varren, and yet Ash directly compares other aliens to mindless creatures) and I would submit that your analogy largely proves false in any case.  The turians did NOT simply turn their backs on humanity in the end.  Yes, they needed inducement to help, but in a critical moment the Turians pull out of Palaven in order to support Earth and the crucible, even though Palaven's getting hammered, and even though they already had the Krogans and there was nothing to stop them from "throwing humainty to the bear" as it were.

[Blue Gloves]

I would also contend that Ashley was in no way predicting a scenario in her conversation w/ Shepard. She was offering a rationalization in attempt to explain herself after Shep raised a brow at her seemingly harsh views.

[Dianjabla]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.

"Look, if you're fighting a bear, and your only way to survive is to sic your dog at it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog it isn't human. It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are."

This is a terrible metaphor if you're trying not to make yourself seem racist. Comparing other species to that of a dog doesn't fit the definition of racist?

And in the context of the conversation, humanity is the dog in the eyes of the other races. Which seems to play out pretty well in conversations with the council in ME3.

Edit: Bah. Teach me not to read all 18 pages before posting. 

Modifié par Dianjabla, 27 juillet 2012 - 09:23 .

[avenging_teabag]

Blue Gloves wrote...

umm- yes, I thoroughly understand your point, thank you for explaining it to me, again, however.
Alas, understanding is not equivalent to agreement, (at no time does the councilor suggest that humanity is no better than a pack of varren, and yet Ash directly compares other aliens to mindless creatures) and I would submit that your analogy largely proves false in any case.  The turians did NOT simply turn their backs on humanity in the end.  Yes, they needed inducement to help, but in a critical moment the Turians pull out of Palaven in order to support Earth and the crucible, even though Palaven's getting hammered, and even though they already had the Krogans and there was nothing to stop them from "throwing humainty to the bear" as it were.

Pardon me for butting in, but the bolded part is inexcusably ignorant. Ash's words were just a comparison, a figure of speech. If I say "Wow, you're busy as a bee today", do i insult my conversation partner, comparing them to a mindless insect? No, i'm just just using a figure of speech. Similarily Ash made up an imaginary situation with animals to better illustrate her point. I'm pretty sure they teach that stuff in middle school or even earlier. 

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 27 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .

[obZen DF]

Ash means that they all look a like. The Keepers sure look alot like animals/bugs !

Modifié par obZen DF, 27 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[Zubie]

Blue Gloves wrote...

My initial reaction IRL would've been a lolwut? deal followed by being embarrassed when I realized that she seriously DID believe in the magical spaghetti monster in the sky.  

Nice...

[Barquiel]

iakus wrote...

It is relevant because that's exactly how the bear and the dog analogy works.  In a crisis, the asari look to the asari first.  Turians will look to turians first.  Salarians to salarians and so on.  It doens't matter hwo much they might like or respect humanity, they aren't asari, turians, or salarians.  Aliens aren't the dogsin that comparison, humanity is.

Ash's analysis turned out to be 100% accurate.  That point seems to get missed a lot.

Edit:  I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

Every single species promised to help Earth before the reapers moved the citadel. The asari and turians pull their fleets away from Thessia and Palaven in order to save Earth (only the Alliance didn't spared their fleets to help alien planets). Ashley was wrong, and I wish there'd be the option to tell her.

[DPSSOC]

Barquiel wrote...

iakus wrote...

It is relevant because that's exactly how the bear and the dog analogy works.  In a crisis, the asari look to the asari first.  Turians will look to turians first.  Salarians to salarians and so on.  It doens't matter hwo much they might like or respect humanity, they aren't asari, turians, or salarians.  Aliens aren't the dogsin that comparison, humanity is.

Ash's analysis turned out to be 100% accurate.  That point seems to get missed a lot.

Edit:  I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

Every single species promised to help Earth before the reapers moved the citadel. The asari and turians pull their fleets away from Thessia and Palaven in order to save Earth (only the Alliance didn't spared their fleets to help alien planets). Ashley was wrong, and I wish there'd be the option to tell her.

So the whole first conversation with the Council in ME3 just didn't happen?  You know where they expressly state that abandoning Earth to the Reapers gives them a better chance and they're going to take it.  Or did you not get that conversation?

[Zubie]

Barquiel wrote...


Every single species promised to help Earth before the reapers moved the citadel. The asari and turians pull their fleets away from Thessia and Palaven in order to save Earth (only the Alliance didn't spared their fleets to help alien planets). Ashley was wrong, and I wish there'd be the option to tell her.

Only after Shepard busted his ass to fix their problems first. They also didn't do it to save Earth. They did it because they finally realized only a united force could defeat the Reapers.

[Barquiel]

DPSSOC wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

iakus wrote...

It is relevant because that's exactly how the bear and the dog analogy works.  In a crisis, the asari look to the asari first.  Turians will look to turians first.  Salarians to salarians and so on.  It doens't matter hwo much they might like or respect humanity, they aren't asari, turians, or salarians.  Aliens aren't the dogsin that comparison, humanity is.

Ash's analysis turned out to be 100% accurate.  That point seems to get missed a lot.

Edit:  I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

Every single species promised to help Earth before the reapers moved the citadel. The asari and turians pull their fleets away from Thessia and Palaven in order to save Earth (only the Alliance didn't spared their fleets to help alien planets). Ashley was wrong, and I wish there'd be the option to tell her.

So the whole first conversation with the Council in ME3 just didn't happen?  You know where they expressly state that abandoning Earth to the Reapers gives them a better chance and they're going to take it.  Or did you not get that conversation?

Every species was willing to commit to Earth before the Citadel was even at Earth. Hackett says the fleet would attack even if Shep can't finish the crucible ( -> We would save Earth over the rest of the Galaxy).

[Zubie]

Barquiel wrote...

Every species was willing to commit to Earth before the Citadel was even at Earth. Hackett says the fleet would attack even if Shep can't finish the crucible ( -> We would save Earth over the rest of the Galaxy).

So I guess you just ignored the conversation at the beginning of the game where the Council basically says "Well, good luck with that!" when Shepard asks for their help.

[DPSSOC]

Barquiel wrote...
Every species was willing to commit to Earth before the Citadel was even at Earth. Hackett says the fleet would attack even if Shep can't finish the crucible ( -> We would save Earth over the rest of the Galaxy).

Yes they eventually help however their initial reaction was to abandon humanity to better secure their position.  Furthermore it takes Shepard securing their positions for them to contribute anything.  Until the Turians have Krogan forces to hold the ground on Palaven while their fleet's away they won't help.  The Asari refuse to help until Thessia has already fallen, and Salarian support is dependent on you screwing over the Krogan.

Let's be perfectly clear here the other species don't throw their fleets behind the Alliance for Earth, they don't do it to be nice or because it's the right thing to do.  They do it because they catch on that it's the only chance they've got of victory.

To continue Ash's analogy the Council sicked their dog on the Reapers and ran, only to find the only way out is through the bear.  That's what happened.

Edit: And nobody is saying there's anything wrong with that, it's understandable that they look to themselves first, even Ash doesn't hold it against them when she makes the analogy it's just a simple reality that humanity can't afford to ignore when dealing with other species.  They will always put themselves first (just as we would), so we shouldn't make ourselves dependent on them helping when the chips are down.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:14 .

[Barquiel]

easygame88 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Every species was willing to commit to Earth before the Citadel was even at Earth. Hackett says the fleet would attack even if Shep can't finish the crucible ( -> We would save Earth over the rest of the Galaxy).

So I guess you just ignored the conversation at the beginning of the game where the Council basically says "Well, good luck with that!" when Shepard asks for their help.

Yes, the council doesn't want to save Earth over Thessia, Palavan,...

But that's exactly what happened.

[robertthebard]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Dranks wrote...

This is a long thread, but does anyone ever call out Pressley for his "racism?" He feels the exact same way as Ashley does. He says he doesn't trust the aliens either, but I've seen a ton of people saying what a bro he was and stuff. I bet you anything if Ashley never had the religion conversation this wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue.

Ashley really doesn't deserve a lot of the hate she gets. It's very annoying and it's obvious hate train bs.

Regarding Pressly, I noticed that right away, in my very first play through, it was so bad, in fact, that I never talked to him again.  Which turns out to be too bad, since you find his data pad when exploring the crash site.  I find it very hard to play ME 1 now due to mechanical improvements in both 2 and 3, but he does an almost complete turnaround in a very short amount of time.

Regarding "hate train":  Both Kaidan and Ashley are tools, as written.  Kaidan's started in ME 1, but was focused more on his biotics, and some of it is, admittedly, not his fault, although he seems to have gotten implant upgrades, since his migraines don't seem to be a problem any more.  Ashley's was an obssession with her grandfather surrendering to the Turians; which we have no idea whether it's justified or not.  She thinks it is, but, and while I don't view her as a racist, this is where people start getting the idea she is.  The reason some people feel this way is, if you talk to any member of any race drive organization, they'll tell you they are perfectly justified in having their position.  It's amazing how much "I don't hate all aliens, but..." sounds like "I'm not racist, but...".

I don't buy into racist, but even if she were, so what?  I have some very close friends that are total racists.  I don't subscribe to their beliefs, but outside of that one "flaw" that I see, they are great people.  The really funny thing is, I have really racist white and black friends.  I've never had to have both in the same place at the same time, and I avoid doing that on purpose.  However, being racist doesn't automatically make somebody bad.  Being a tool, on the other hand, makes them somebody I wouldn't want to hang around with.  Since I can support Ashley and Kaidan as both being tools with evidence presented over 3 games, I don't see the "hate train".  What I do see is somebody unwilling to accept that others may have legitimate criticisms of a character that you like.  some are undoubtably taking it to extremes, just like you just did defending her, but since it's behavior exhibited by both sides, how is one side wrong, and the other right, especially since people can see the exact same thing happen, and view it different ways?

[Zubie]

Well they are soldiers. That is as far as I can see them being "tools".

[DevilBeast]

Blue Gloves wrote...

iakus wrote...

I should also point out that Ash is not making a value judgement with this either.  She's not saying it's right or wrong, but a survival instinct.  You protect your species first to ensure its continuaton

You had me until the edit, but then I realized-The Asari councilor didn't reduce humans to mindless animals- she just said she wasn't going to take any action that didn't benefit her people first.  She's a politician, that's her job.  On the other hand, Ashley didn't just say that she was more interested in promoting humanity over the other species, she actively compared other sentient, intelligent life to dogs and animals.  The fact that se was referring to the Kepers doesn't do her any favors.  She saw a strange creature with every appearance of intelligence (it was working on a console remember) and made a derisive comment likening animals to aliens.  She had no idea that the Keepers weren't just another race at that point, she saw something other and reacted negatively to it.

Well, technically humans are animals too, so I always find it rather funny when Ashley likens aliens to animals. Basically you could do the same with humans.
Hey, maybe humans actually look like some of the other species´ that are bound to exist on the other homeworlds, making aliens think the same as Ashley.. hmmmm...

[DevilBeast]

easygame88 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


Every single species promised to help Earth before the reapers moved the citadel. The asari and turians pull their fleets away from Thessia and Palaven in order to save Earth (only the Alliance didn't spared their fleets to help alien planets). Ashley was wrong, and I wish there'd be the option to tell her.

Only after Shepard busted his ass to fix their problems first. They also didn't do it to save Earth. They did it because they finally realized only a united force could defeat the Reapers.

Well, they did keep their word and showed up with their fleets. Didn´t see the human fleets trying to save Thessia or Palaven...