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[RenegonSQ]

RyanSoup wrote...

Ignoring her idiotic racism in the first game, can someone please explain to me why Ashley feels the need to be a giant douche to Shepard after ME1?  I mean, it seems like she's pretty quick to forget who saved her life not only on Horizon, but also Eden Prime and Virmire, and then saved the galaxy to boot.  She could be a bit more grateful like Tali, who I only had to save twice.  Instead, she turns around and accuses Shep of treason, as if she had the capacity to compare with Shepard in any way.  Then she gets this magic promotion, while still demonstrating just how submissive and crazy she is on Mars.  "I know you saved me and the galaxy and all, but I can't forgive you for working with a group that I really have no personal quarrel with."

I mean hell, Cerberus really didn't play a huge part in ME1 anyway
So what's the deal

Actually, if you did every-little-side-mission, you realize that Cerberus was doing a lot of bad things in ME1. Miranda clears up why they were doing these things in ME2 after a couple of deep conversations with her, but nonetheless Cerberus were doing some dirty things.

I didn't think they played a huge role either, I didn't even remember Cerberus from ME1. Only after I did a FULL second playthrough did I see the evil in Cerberus.

As far as Ashley is concerned, her stern attitude is one of the reasons I liked her in the first play-through. While every other character is in awe of Shepard, and doesn't dig too deep into their bad side, she is the only one with any real substance to her. She's a ****, and she stands firm on her beliefs.

It can be annoying, but her realness makes her a great character at the end of the day.

Modifié par RenegonSQ, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .

[RyanSoup]

nhsknudsen wrote...

Tell me why she tells Terra Firma to pack their **** up then and leave?

She only states that humanity should not cater to alien interests before their own, as aliens will surely cater to their interests before humans.

Kinda the same way nations work on Earth, really. How alarmingly racist...

She also states that she's uncomfortable letting the aliens roam the Normandy freely.

[Ageless Face]

RyanSoup wrote...
The Migrant Fleet was sabotaged by Cerberus, but Tali still gives Shepard a chance.  Ashley's a tool because she sticks with the Alliance, despite her experiences with Shepard, to the point that she's manipulated into aiding Udina in an attempt to stage a coup.

Did I ever say I think Tali is being rational by coming back with Shepard? And even then, she made it very clear that the only reason she comes back is for Shepard. Something Ashley can't do, leaving her job because of her trust in one person. Besides, Tali can come back to the fleet whenever she wants. Ashley don't have that luxury, she knows that if she will join Shepard, the Alliance won't get her back.

Ashley is not a tool of the Alliance. She ran off with Shepard in ME1 to Ilos. She doesn't even believe in Shepard after gaining his/her job back. She makes it very clear that she is doing what she thinks is right. And joining a terrorist organization just because of one person (that she thought was dead for 2 years, kind of suspicious), is not being a tool. It's being loyal to your princibles, and loyal to the Alliance, who did nothing for Ashley to question them (for what she knows). You can't say the same about Cerberus.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:39 .

[KiwiQuiche]

I thought she would have spent her promotion money on some armour or better guns, not on plastic surgery and a boob job.

For shame, Ash.

[RenegonSQ]

HagarIshay wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...
The Migrant Fleet was sabotaged by Cerberus, but Tali still gives Shepard a chance.  Ashley's a tool because she sticks with the Alliance, despite her experiences with Shepard, to the point that she's manipulated into aiding Udina in an attempt to stage a coup.

Did I ever say I think Tali is being rational by coming back with Shepard? And even then, she made it very clear that the only reason she comes back is for Shepard. Something Ashley can't do, leaving her job because of her trust in one person. Besides, Tali can come back to the fleet whenever she wants. Ashley don't have that laxuary, she knows that if she will join Shepard, the Alliance won't get her back.

Ashley is not a tool of the Alliance. She ran off with Shepard in ME1 to Ilos. She doesn't even believe in Shepard after gaining his/her job back. She makes it very clear that she is doing what she thinks is right. And joining a terrorist organization just because of one person (that she thought was dead for 2 years, kind of suspicious), is not being a tool. It's being loyal to your princibles, and loyal to the Alliance, who did nothing for Ashley to question them (for what she knows). You can't say the same about Cerberus.

Almost every squadmate and helpful character to Shepard in Mass Effect is a tool, if you wanna be technical about it. You can talk them out of anything, and get them to follow you almost blindly. Kaidan and Ashley are the only ones who actually have the balls to say no. This is an undeniable fact

Modifié par RenegonSQ, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:40 .

[RyanSoup]

HagarIshay wrote...
Did I ever say I think Tali is being rational by coming back with Shepard? And even then, she made it very clear that the only reason she comes back is for Shepard. Something Ashley can't do, leaving her job because of her trust in one person. Besides, Tali can come back to the fleet whenever she wants. Ashley don't have that laxuary, she knows that if she will join Shepard, the Alliance won't get her back.

Ashley is not a tool of the Alliance. She ran off with Shepard in ME1 to Ilos. She doesn't even believe in Shepard after gaining his/her job back. She makes it very clear that she is doing what she thinks is right. And joining a terrorist organization just because of one person (that she thought was dead for 2 years, kind of suspicious), is not being a tool. It's being loyal to your princibles, and loyal to the Alliance, who did nothing for Ashley to question them (for what she knows). You can't say the same about Cerberus.

Ashley was always Alliance Military during ME1.  She was serving on an Alliance vessel under her Alliance superiors, Leuitenant Kaidan Alenko, Commander Shepard, and the token XO.  Shepard's still Alliance as well (hence he maintains his rank).  In any case, I'm not saying she had to run off with him.  A "Thank you for saving my ass for the third time," would have been nice though.  Or maybe a "hey, how's it going."  Not a spontaneous b****-out and then apologetic e-mail.  You think she'd at least be a loyal girlfriend if nothing else

[Ageless Face]

RenegonSQ wrote...
Almost every squadmate and helpful character to Shepard in Mass Effect is a tool, if you wanna be technical about it. You can talk them out of anything, and get them to follow you almost blindly. Kaidan and Ashley re the only ones who actually have the balls to say no. This is an undeniable fact

Exactly. Did Shepard ever gave Thane a reason to follow him/her? Garrus? Tali? Samara, is just hilarious, she suppose to be a justicar, and she's working with terrorists. And the only reason she comes with Shepard because s/he gave her a name of Morinth's ship. Grunt's reason is idiotic, I come because I want to kill. You can also kill by joining Mercs, why you need Shepard for? Jack is even more stupid. Why didn't she leave after she got the data about Cerberus? She had no reason to stay.

They are all Shepard's tools, for no good reason what so ever. Most of the time (if at all) Shepard didn't even give a speech for why they should follow him/her. Just "I need you. Come and join me to kill the collectors who are working with the reapers". Not even giving proof. Kaidan and Ashley seem to me the only people who still got some brain. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:51 .

[RyanSoup]

RenegonSQ wrote...
 You can talk them out of anything, and get them to follow you almost blindly. Kaidan and Ashley are the only ones who actually have the balls to say no. This is an undeniable fact

So Kaidan and Ashley are superior characters because they're stubborn about their superiority complexes shen speaking to Shepard in ME2?

All of the characters can say no.  The rest will also listen to reason, though.  Being swayed by someone you trust doesn't make you a tool.  It makes you a person.

[RenegonSQ]

RyanSoup wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...
 You can talk them out of anything, and get them to follow you almost blindly. Kaidan and Ashley are the only ones who actually have the balls to say no. This is an undeniable fact

So Kaidan and Ashley are superior characters because they're stubborn about their superiority complexes shen speaking to Shepard in ME2?

All of the characters can say no.  The rest will also listen to reason, though.  Being swayed by someone you trust doesn't make you a tool.  It makes you a person.

The fact of the matter is, squadmates like Tali and Liara follow you almost blindly. If you betray Tali  during her trial by exposing her fathers secrets about geth technology, she won't be loyal to you, but she stays on your ship and still fights with you into a mission with near impossible odds of survival. Really? You can classify it and categorize it as human nature if you wish, but part of being a person is standing for something as well.

Modifié par RenegonSQ, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .

[RyanSoup]

HagarIshay wrote...
Exactly. Did Shepard ever gave Thane a reason to follow him/her? Garrus? Tali? Samara, is just hilarious, she suppose to be a justicar, and she's working with terrorists. And the only reason she comes with Shepard because s/he gave her a name of Morinth's ship. Grunt's reason is idiotic, I come because I want to kill. You can also kill by joining Mercs, why you need Shepard for? Jack is even more stupid. Why didn't she leave after she got the data about Cerberus? She had no reason to stay.

They are all Shepard's tools, for no good reason what so ever. Most of the time (if at all) Shepard didn't even give a speech for why they should follow him/her. Just "I need you. Come and join me to kill the collectors who are working with the reapers". Not even giving proof. Kaidan and Ashley seem to me the only people who still got some brain. 

Thane had his own reasons for following Shepard.  If you spoke to him in ME3, Thane explains that Shepard inadvertently gave Thane the will to go on living.  Garrus always wanted to be a SpecTRe himself.  He had his own reason.  Tali's initial involvement in Shepard's mission was for her pilgrimage.  Samara was bound by honor to aid Shepard in his mission to stop the Collectors.  I don't imagine the Justicar's code really cares about whether one is a terrorist or not.  You really can't say either way.  Grunt was technically just born, and Shepard was a leader when Grunt had no real guidance.  Jack stayed because she wanted to blow up Pragia, btw.  All personal reasons.  Ashley and Kaidan were bound by Alliance protocol in ME1

[RyanSoup]

RenegonSQ wrote...
The fact of the matter is, squadmates like Tali and Liara follow you almost blindly. If you betray Tali  during her trial by exposing her fathers secrets about geth technology, she won't be loyal to you, but she stays on your ship and still fights with you into a mission with near impossible odds of survival. Really? You can classify it and categorize it as human nature if you wish, but part of being a person is standing for something as well.

Maybe you missed the part where Tali gets exiled and has nowhere else to go

[RenegonSQ]

RyanSoup wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...
The fact of the matter is, squadmates like Tali and Liara follow you almost blindly. If you betray Tali  during her trial by exposing her fathers secrets about geth technology, she won't be loyal to you, but she stays on your ship and still fights with you into a mission with near impossible odds of survival. Really? You can classify it and categorize it as human nature if you wish, but part of being a person is standing for something as well.

Maybe you missed the part where Tali gets exiled and has nowhere else to go

This just proves my point. These characters are written to have almost no one but Shepard when everything boils down. They'd follow him/her to hell if they were asked to because he is their everything.

Liara moves from the massive Shadow Broker base because of whatever reason, to stay in some small room with a bed where she has to manage all of the galaxies biggest secrets and information in multiple terminals, because Shepard is all she has. The Normandy always has a place for her while nowhere else quite does. This is my point

[Ageless Face]

RyanSoup wrote...
Thane had his own reasons for following Shepard.  If you spoke to him in ME3, Thane explains that Shepard inadvertently gave Thane the will to go on living.  Garrus always wanted to be a SpecTRe himself.  He had his own reason.  Tali's initial involvement in Shepard's mission was for her pilgrimage.  Samara was bound by honor to aid Shepard in his mission to stop the Collectors.  I don't imagine the Justicar's code really cares about whether one is a terrorist or not.  You really can't say either way.  Grunt was technically just born, and Shepard was a leader when Grunt had no real guidance.  Jack stayed because she wanted to blow up Pragia, btw.  All personal reasons.  Ashley and Kaidan were bound by Alliance protocol in ME1

Thane could just as much continue to kill people like Nassana. What reason does e have to believe the human colonies are being abducted? Shepard could be lying, and trying to hire him up for a job to kill someone. For free. He has no reason to believe, and he does.

Garrus left C-sec/ spectres training (or whatever it was) and went to Omega. He didn't even say he wanted to become a spectre. He just came because Shepard told him to come.

Even if Shepard took Tali in ME1, Tali still had no reason to come with Shepard again. She had the fleets to take care of.

Samara still worked for terrorists. She could have tried and help without joinging them. She only came because Shepard helped her out with her problem. You can even see that without the name of the ship, Samara won't go. She will even kill innocent people to get the name, to get Morinth. Yet when Shepard gives her the name of the ship... She swears loyalty to him/her? Just like that? That is just ridiculous.

Again, why does Grunt needs Shepard and his/her mission for? He could just kill as a merc, no boundries to anything.

Jack could have blown Paragia on her own.

Kaidan and Ashley didn't believe in what one person said. The Alliance are much more trustworthy than a wo/man who works with terrorists. 

[RenegonSQ]

HagarIshay wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...
Thane had his own reasons for following Shepard.  If you spoke to him in ME3, Thane explains that Shepard inadvertently gave Thane the will to go on living.  Garrus always wanted to be a SpecTRe himself.  He had his own reason.  Tali's initial involvement in Shepard's mission was for her pilgrimage.  Samara was bound by honor to aid Shepard in his mission to stop the Collectors.  I don't imagine the Justicar's code really cares about whether one is a terrorist or not.  You really can't say either way.  Grunt was technically just born, and Shepard was a leader when Grunt had no real guidance.  Jack stayed because she wanted to blow up Pragia, btw.  All personal reasons.  Ashley and Kaidan were bound by Alliance protocol in ME1

Thane could just as much continue to kill people like Nassana. What reason does e have to believe the human colonies are being abducted? Shepard could be lying, and trying to hire him up for a job to kill someone. For free. He has no reason to believe, and he does.

Garrus left C-sec/ spectres training (or whatever it was) and went to Omega. He didn't even say he wanted to become a spectre. He just came because Shepard told him to come.

Even if Shepard took Tali in ME1, Tali still had no reason to come with Shepard again. She had the fleets to take care of.

Samara still worked for terrorists. She could have tried and help without joinging them. She only came because Shepard helped her out with her problem. You can even see that without the name of the ship, Samara won't go. She will even kill innocent people to get the name, to get Morinth. Yet when Shepard gives her the name of the ship... She swears loyalty to him/her? Just like that? That is just ridiculous.

Again, why does Grunt needs Shepard and his/her mission for? He could just kill as a merc, no boundries to anything.

Jack could have blown Paragia on her own.

Kaidan and Ashley didn't believe in what one person said. The Alliance are much more trustworthy than a wo/man who works with terrorists. 

Gotta disagree about Jack and Pragia. She would never have gotten the necessary criteria needed to destroy that base without having access to the Cereberus files that were on the Normandy. The real issue with Jack is, after she destroys Pragia, she could just leave.

[SpamBot2000]

Technically "racism" is the belief that it is an objective truth that humanity is composed of different "races" defined according to genotype, with certain traits more or less characteristic of these "races". You don't even have to assert the superiority of any of these to qualify as racist in your thinking. The non-humans in Mass Effect represent different species altogether, so if anything, discrimination based on this difference is of the "specieist" variety.

Of course Mass Effect clearly uses these attitudes as analogous to real life racism, inviting us to imaginatively extend our standard of "humanity" to sapience in general. In any case, kneejerk denunciations are bound to miss the examination of how these views arise and how they can be subject to change.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 juillet 2012 - 10:16 .

[Ageless Face]

RenegonSQ wrote...
Gotta disagree about Jack and Pragia. She would never have gotten the necessary criteria needed to destroy that base without having access to the Cereberus files that were on the Normandy. The real issue with Jack is, after she destroys Pragia, she could just leave.

I meant she could have destroyed Pragia on her own after getting the files. She didn't need to stay with Shepard after getting them.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 10:22 .

[Dendio1]

Ah yes another Ashley hate thread. I'll just sort it next to the Liara, Jacob, and Javik hate threads

[Wilkco]

i think racism is s strong word for what ashley thought of aliens it was more of a lets not blindly trust them until they have proven themselves trust worthy which i think most normal person would say

also the thing is with me2 they had the Kaidan/Ashley refuse talk on horizon even if they where your li is that if they go with you that would wipe out the jacob/mirianda LI option that bioware had put in place for people starting me2 and not played me1.it also kept the squad member limit down as well.

[NRieh]

This is why Ashley's reaction to Cerberus pisses me off. Cerberus represents everything Ashley believes in, and yet she is intent on hating the organization even before they went completely brain dead.

First, I should remind you all, that both Ashley and Kaidan since ME2 suffered from huge mistreating from writers and from "VS syndrom". On Horizon BW trapped itself with the fracking idea that those two characters should behave exactly same way, and should be ONE character.

And this sh!t went on through all the ME3. Game has no Ashley or Kaidan. It has "Virmire surviver", which has one animation set in key scenes for two character skins, and single plot line. I'm surprised they wrote separate lines at all. It's hard to talk about Ashley's motivs about cerberus and Shepard, because it's not actually, Ashley's - it's VS. Probably, it suits Alenko a little bit more. But in both cases - it's not personality-specific, it was forced.

[Conniving_Eagle]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Technically "racism" is the belief that it is an objective truth that humanity is composed of different "races" defined according to genotype, with certain traits more or less characteristic of these "races". You don't even have to assert the superiority of any of these to qualify as racist in your thinking. The non-humans in Mass Effect represent different species altogether, so if anything, discrimination based on this difference is of the "specieist" variety.

Of course Mass Effect clearly uses these attitudes as analogous to real life racism, inviting us to imaginatively extend our standard of "humanity" to sapience in general. In any case, kneejerk denunciations are bound to miss the examination of how these views arise and how they can be subject to change.

Then I guess we're subspecieist.

[nhsknudsen]

RyanSoup wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

Tell me why she tells Terra Firma to pack their **** up then and leave?

She only states that humanity should not cater to alien interests before their own, as aliens will surely cater to their interests before humans.

Kinda the same way nations work on Earth, really. How alarmingly racist...

She also states that she's uncomfortable letting the aliens roam the Normandy freely.

Well, I doubt many Americans let Chinese people roam their most advanced aircraft carrier freely, or even British who are allies, Catch the drift?

[Conniving_Eagle]

Racist or not, Ashley is definitely a xenophobe.

[D24O]

Adugan wrote...

Troll thread

>mfw