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[obZen DF]

BD Manchild wrote...

My god, the sheer amount of stupidity, misinterpretation and willful delusion in this thread is absolutely unbelievable. People STILL get Ashley's bear/dog analogy completely backwards even after it has been explained to them numerous times?

Christ, I've never known a place filled with more people who are basically willing to ignore facts for their own stupid agendas.

Like I said on page 3: People who hate Ashley will stick to their believe, no matter what obvious and great arguments people give them. That's the said truth.

[sth128]

obZen DF wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

My god, the sheer amount of stupidity, misinterpretation and willful delusion in this thread is absolutely unbelievable.
[...]
Christ, I've never known a place filled with more people who are basically willing to ignore facts for their own stupid agendas.

Like I said on page 3: People who hate Ashley will stick to their believe, no matter what obvious and great arguments people give them. That's the said truth.

There are always more than one way to interpret things. There's no such thing as absolute truth. Even when people express opposite opinions than yours, it doesn't mean they are "stupid" or "willfully delusional".

Also, welcome to the internet, where "consensus" is never achieved.

[sth128]

iakus wrote...

Blue Gloves wrote...

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" on the presiduim

Again, shes's talking about the Keepers!  She only says that when you're close to one!  They look like big bugs and nobosy knows if they're sentient or not!

That's only YOUR interpretation. Why doesn't Ash say "I can't tell the Keepers from giant bugs" if that's the case?

I mean, it's kinda pointless to say "I can't tell <blank> from the animals" anyway. Unless that blank happens to be a tree, then you are either projecting a racial prejudice, or you are really bad at biology.

The ANIMAL KINGDOM includes ALL MULTI-CELLULAR ORGANISMS that aren't static. This means everything you see from insects to dogs to Keepers and Asari, everything falls into the animal category.

The only sensible use of "I can't tell them from the animals" is therefore to express the lack of civility or advanced culture. Ash said "aliens" as in "everything on the Citadel that's not human". She basically just expressed prejudice against non-humans.

In additional, Ash herself stated that she has had very little contact with alien civilizations due to her rank and posting. Yet the moment she steps onto a galactic metropolis, she finds non-humans animal-like?

It'd be like a tourist stepping onto Africa the first time then say "I can't tell the tribal men from neanderthals".

[Goneaviking]

The major problems with Ashley seem to be derived from the analogies she makes about the keepers and the dog and bear. In my opinion analogies tend to be fairly heavily flawed even as they represent the easiest way to describe a situation to someone without the requisite knowledge to understand intuitively. Since these analogies are proving problematic I'll take a stab at explaining my thoughts about them.

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" - Noone seems to know anything about the keepers, even the avina doesn't have anything useful to say about them. As ridiculous as it seems to us that the general consensus on the keepers is that they were either automatons, animals or otherwise a lower form of life, given their apparent use of technology (like the backpacks and tools) it actually does appear to be what the galactic community believes to be the case.

No one understands the Keepers, no one appears to be interested in learning about them and they're only protected because if they were to be broken then no one has any idea how to fix them or run the citadel without them.

As obnoxious as Ashley's comment sounds to our ears, she's not really saying anything that defies the thousands of years of experience the alien races have with the keepers. For all intents and purposes the keepers do appear to be mindless, from my own observations at no point have they been seen to react to any kind of stimuli outside of their own inscrutable programming.

Add that to the reality that they don't really look markedly distinct from the various sapient alien races frequenting the Citadel her comment actually seems like a fairly well reasoned observation rather than an insult.

"As much as you love your dog..." - To be blunt, the Council races don't respect humanity at the point Ashley makes this comment. The best example of that would be when questioning the Avina and it refers to non-council races as "lesser species".

Given the myriad races running around the Citadel making use of the Avinas, it takes quite a lot of gall for someone to refer to other races as lesser. So I feel comfortable in using the example as a definitive marker of the way humanity, and other disempowered races, are seen from within the power circle.

The dog and bear analogy works very poorly when used to describe individual relations. Of course I wouldn't throw a French or American or Chinese person in front of a bear to save myself, but I relate to them on more or less the same level as I would a fellow Australian.

The analogy works much better at a national level. The idea of sending Australian soldiers to fight in wars for a foreign nation rubs me the wrong way for a whole slew of reasons, not the least because I've seen that that enthusiasm isn't recipricated when that investment runs counter to their own perceived interests.

An earlier part of the same conversation where Shepard reminds Ashley that they are our allies is generally left out of these discussions, but I think Ashley's response is illustrative of her thinking. She tells Shepard it's a mistake to assume that just because they're our allies now that they always will be.

How many times in human history have allied nations become enemies and then switched back to allies? It makes perfect sense to assume that other species, like other nations, will pursue their own interests ahead of our own and that it will at some point this will put us into conflict with them.

Ashley doesn't talk about shunning the alien crewmembers, or even actively distrusting them (aside from Liara who aside from being a rival for male Shepard's affections is also the daughter of one of our enemies), she only advocates treating them with the same caution any of our militaries would treat their allies in our contemporary society.

So I didn't believe Ashley was a racist on the strength of the first game. The second game reinforced that opinion with her almost violent rejection of Cerberus. When the third game proved her correct, it just confirmed what I had suspected all along.

[Goneaviking]

sth128 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blue Gloves wrote...

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" on the presiduim

Again, shes's talking about the Keepers!  She only says that when you're close to one!  They look like big bugs and nobosy knows if they're sentient or not!

That's only YOUR interpretation. Why doesn't Ash say "I can't tell the Keepers from giant bugs" if that's the case?

I mean, it's kinda pointless to say "I can't tell <blank> from the animals" anyway. Unless that blank happens to be a tree, then you are either projecting a racial prejudice, or you are really bad at biology.

The ANIMAL KINGDOM includes ALL MULTI-CELLULAR ORGANISMS that aren't static. This means everything you see from insects to dogs to Keepers and Asari, everything falls into the animal category.

The only sensible use of "I can't tell them from the animals" is therefore to express the lack of civility or advanced culture. Ash said "aliens" as in "everything on the Citadel that's not human". She basically just expressed prejudice against non-humans.

In additional, Ash herself stated that she has had very little contact with alien civilizations due to her rank and posting. Yet the moment she steps onto a galactic metropolis, she finds non-humans animal-like?

It'd be like a tourist stepping onto Africa the first time then say "I can't tell the tribal men from neanderthals".

Given her lack of familiarity with aliens, and presumably with alien species of animals (using this term as representative of lower forms of animal life rather than the broadest sense you use above) it actually doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for her to not be able to see an obvious distinction given the apparently hitech nature of the keepers and their obvious low status.

Rather different from mistaking a human from a different ethnic group with a neanderthal, given that your hypothetical tribesman is of the same species as the tourist where as there are obvious physical differences between a human and a neanderthal.

Your example couldn't possibly be interpreted as anything other than a conscious attempt at insult, whereas Ashley's comments seem to be understood as being a misguided demonstration of ignorance by many forum users.

[Iakus]

@Goneaviking Two very well-written posts. I wish I had confidence that they'll Be paid attention to, but well done anyway!

[BD Manchild]

Goneaviking, those are well-written and well-thought-out analyses.

To me, Ashley has views that make a great deal of sense given the nature of her upbringing; she was raised in an environment full of suspicion about aliens that have proven to be cautious at best around humans, at worst downright hostile. Combine that with her own experiences; prior to joining Shepard's team, she had no real experience outside of human territory due to being assigned garrison duties because her grandfather would not throw his soldiers' lives away in a futile attack against turians. Despite all that, in spite of the awkward analogies she comes up with to try to make sense of her new environment (analogies which have been blatantly, even willfully, misinterpreted by so many), she grows to lose most of her prejudices while working alongside you (hell, in the case of the dog/bear analogy, in ME3 she's even vindicated when the Council races won't lift a finger to help Earth because they're watching their own borders).

Ash is conservative, and that's very different from being the hardline racist card-carrying KKK member that so many people seem eager to portray her as. When you run into her on Horizon in ME2 her reaction to you working with Cerberus is one of abject disgust and horror as, you know, Cerberus are basically the ****ing ****s. You know, once she gets over the fact that last time she saw her commanding officer they were making planetfall sans the customary spaceship. She also makes her views on Terra Firma clear; in short, they're the ME equivalent of the UK Independence Party.

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

Modifié par BD Manchild, 28 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[robertthebard]

Goneaviking wrote...

The major problems with Ashley seem to be derived from the analogies she makes about the keepers and the dog and bear. In my opinion analogies tend to be fairly heavily flawed even as they represent the easiest way to describe a situation to someone without the requisite knowledge to understand intuitively. Since these analogies are proving problematic I'll take a stab at explaining my thoughts about them.

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals" - Noone seems to know anything about the keepers, even the avina doesn't have anything useful to say about them. As ridiculous as it seems to us that the general consensus on the keepers is that they were either automatons, animals or otherwise a lower form of life, given their apparent use of technology (like the backpacks and tools) it actually does appear to be what the galactic community believes to be the case.

No one understands the Keepers, no one appears to be interested in learning about them and they're only protected because if they were to be broken then no one has any idea how to fix them or run the citadel without them.

As obnoxious as Ashley's comment sounds to our ears, she's not really saying anything that defies the thousands of years of experience the alien races have with the keepers. For all intents and purposes the keepers do appear to be mindless, from my own observations at no point have they been seen to react to any kind of stimuli outside of their own inscrutable programming.

Add that to the reality that they don't really look markedly distinct from the various sapient alien races frequenting the Citadel her comment actually seems like a fairly well reasoned observation rather than an insult.

"As much as you love your dog..." - To be blunt, the Council races don't respect humanity at the point Ashley makes this comment. The best example of that would be when questioning the Avina and it refers to non-council races as "lesser species".

Given the myriad races running around the Citadel making use of the Avinas, it takes quite a lot of gall for someone to refer to other races as lesser. So I feel comfortable in using the example as a definitive marker of the way humanity, and other disempowered races, are seen from within the power circle.

The dog and bear analogy works very poorly when used to describe individual relations. Of course I wouldn't throw a French or American or Chinese person in front of a bear to save myself, but I relate to them on more or less the same level as I would a fellow Australian.

The analogy works much better at a national level. The idea of sending Australian soldiers to fight in wars for a foreign nation rubs me the wrong way for a whole slew of reasons, not the least because I've seen that that enthusiasm isn't recipricated when that investment runs counter to their own perceived interests.

An earlier part of the same conversation where Shepard reminds Ashley that they are our allies is generally left out of these discussions, but I think Ashley's response is illustrative of her thinking. She tells Shepard it's a mistake to assume that just because they're our allies now that they always will be.

How many times in human history have allied nations become enemies and then switched back to allies? It makes perfect sense to assume that other species, like other nations, will pursue their own interests ahead of our own and that it will at some point this will put us into conflict with them.

Ashley doesn't talk about shunning the alien crewmembers, or even actively distrusting them (aside from Liara who aside from being a rival for male Shepard's affections is also the daughter of one of our enemies), she only advocates treating them with the same caution any of our militaries would treat their allies in our contemporary society.

So I didn't believe Ashley was a racist on the strength of the first game. The second game reinforced that opinion with her almost violent rejection of Cerberus. When the third game proved her correct, it just confirmed what I had suspected all along.

The reason the dog and bear analogy doesn't work on an individual level is because there would be no way to not interpret it as a racist comment.  Which is probably why dog was used instead of something else.  If Ash isn't badmouthing alien members of the crew, there's no reason to remind her that they are our allies.  Isn't it funny that, when the chips are down, the aliens she's so concerned about being our allies are the ones that stick with us no matter what, and she's the one that doesn't?  I don't ascribe to the racist thing, but she's most definitely a tool.  She can't see the forest for the trees as far as relationships go, and if she's not the center of attention, she's going to make sure she gets the spotlight back.

[robertthebard]

BD Manchild wrote...

Goneaviking, those are well-written and well-thought-out analyses.

To me, Ashley has views that make a great deal of sense given the nature of her upbringing; she was raised in an environment full of suspicion about aliens that have proven to be cautious at best around humans, at worst downright hostile. Combine that with her own experiences; prior to joining Shepard's team, she had no real experience outside of human territory due to being assigned garrison duties because her grandfather would not throw his soldiers' lives away in a futile attack against turians. Despite all that, in spite of the awkward analogies she comes up with to try to make sense of her new environment (analogies which have been blatantly, even willfully, misinterpreted by so many), she grows to lose most of her prejudices while working alongside you (hell, in the case of the dog/bear analogy, in ME3 she's even vindicated when the Council races won't lift a finger to help Earth because they're watching their own borders).

Ash is conservative, and that's very different from being the hardline racist card-carrying KKK member that so many people seem eager to portray her as. When you run into her on Horizon in ME2 her reaction to you working with Cerberus is one of abject disgust and horror as, you know, Cerberus are basically the ****ing ****s. You know, once she gets over the fact that last time she saw her commanding officer they were making planetfall sans the customary spaceship. She also makes her views on Terra Firma clear; in short, they're the ME equivalent of the UK Independence Party.

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

Since you brought this up, a person born white, in the '50s, in the deep south isn't racist just because they believe black people should ride at the back of the bus, and use seperate drinking fountains?  After all, they have never been anywhere where this isn't the accepted norm, and so it's just being a product of their environment.  The more people post trying to convince others that Ash isn't racist, the more I'm inclined to believe she is, especially with some of the arguements used to support it.

Do enlighten me, however, as to where I can read the details of what happened with her Grandfather.  I haven't found anything, and I'm genuinely curious as to the exact circumstances of that encounter, rather than her version of it.  Is there a codex entry of the actual events that I may have missed?  Is there something on a Wiki somewhere, that's quoting an official source, and not an Ashley fan?  I'd like to know what's what there.  Not that, if finding out that the Turians were using their usual tactic of overwhelm with superior force and numbers, surrender was the best option justifies her position or not, just to know what happened as opposed to what she believes happens.

[Vespervin]

I never got to tell if Ashley was a tool or not. She never made it off Virmire.

[Ryzaki]

BD Manchild wrote...

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

She shot him in the back while he was facing Shepard. That's not balls. That's cowardice.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

She shot him in the back while he was facing Shepard. That's not balls. That's cowardice.

This confuses me a bit.  So should she have told Wrex to turn around so she could shoot him in the face?  Wait, then his back would be to Shephard.

Oh.  Flanking.  What a concept.  It's too bad that no one in the military has thought of this before - I bet it would be useful.

[iamweaver]

Honestly, I think part of the problem comes from our own, inherent baggage.

When we here in the 21st C talk about someone who is a racist, part of the denotation there is that there is either no, or very little differentiation between what we call, in a non-biological term, a race. Thus, racism rests on a fallacy.

Once you move off planet and into the ME galaxy, we aren't actually even dealing with racism, honestly. It appears that all known life in the ME galaxy uses some form of DNA, but we don't even share the same building blocks. We certainly don't have similar intellects, lifespans, pugnacity, or any of the other traits that actually *do* differentiate the various species in the ME universe.

Now, you might want to say that Ashley is a bigot - that's a different thing, and can be argued indefinitely (as is shown here). But in reality, she's not a racist, and using that word automatically brings connotations into the conversation that are simply inappropriate.

Personally, I wouldn't call her a bigot either - as she has no problems interacting with individuals from different species, as long as they aren't hitting on her LI. She is "cautious" or "conservative" or "paranoid" or "has trust issues" depending on how you personally read her.

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

Since you brought this up, a person born white, in the '50s, in the deep south isn't racist just because they believe black people should ride at the back of the bus, and use seperate drinking fountains?  After all, they have never been anywhere where this isn't the accepted norm, and so it's just being a product of their environment.  The more people post trying to convince others that Ash isn't racist, the more I'm inclined to believe she is, especially with some of the arguements used to support it.

And Ash never says that aliens are inferior to humans.  Ever.  All she says is that they have different priorities than humans.  And they do.  Turians, in general, will place the survival of the turian species above that of humanity.  Asari will look to save the asari before any other species.  And so on.This is a trait Ash believes all species (including humanity) share.  It's not a matter of good or evil, superiority or inferiority.  It's a matter of survival and continuation of the species.  A natural defensive mechanism.  Part of it may come from her naturally cynical and distrusting nature.  But it's not racism.

Do enlighten me, however, as to where I can read the details of what happened with her Grandfather.  I haven't found anything, and I'm genuinely curious as to the exact circumstances of that encounter, rather than her version of it.  Is there a codex entry of the actual events that I may have missed?  Is there something on a Wiki somewhere, that's quoting an official source, and not an Ashley fan?  I'd like to know what's what there.  Not that, if finding out that the Turians were using their usual tactic of overwhelm with superior force and numbers, surrender was the best option justifies her position or not, just to know what happened as opposed to what she believes happens.

Mass Effect:  Evolution.  Comic that came out last year.  The first issue was in part the seige at Shanxi from the perspective of a young mercenary names Jack Harper.  Of course, given he ends up becoming The Illusive Man that perspective may be a bit slanted as well...

Also masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/First_Contact_War

[Iakus]

iamweaver wrote...

Honestly, I think part of the problem comes from our own, inherent baggage.

When we here in the 21st C talk about someone who is a racist, part of the denotation there is that there is either no, or very little differentiation between what we call, in a non-biological term, a race. Thus, racism rests on a fallacy.

Once you move off planet and into the ME galaxy, we aren't actually even dealing with racism, honestly. It appears that all known life in the ME galaxy uses some form of DNA, but we don't even share the same building blocks. We certainly don't have similar intellects, lifespans, pugnacity, or any of the other traits that actually *do* differentiate the various species in the ME universe.

Now, you might want to say that Ashley is a bigot - that's a different thing, and can be argued indefinitely (as is shown here). But in reality, she's not a racist, and using that word automatically brings connotations into the conversation that are simply inappropriate.

Personally, I wouldn't call her a bigot either - as she has no problems interacting with individuals from different species, as long as they aren't hitting on her LI. She is "cautious" or "conservative" or "paranoid" or "has trust issues" depending on how you personally read her.

Indeed.  I think people simply look at the surface and make a snap judgement in simplest terms possible.

No wonder they decided to glam her up if no one's going to look any deeper at her character. 

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

She shot him in the back while he was facing Shepard. That's not balls. That's cowardice.

This confuses me a bit.  So should she have told Wrex to turn around so she could shoot him in the face?  Wait, then his back would be to Shephard.

Oh.  Flanking.  What a concept.  It's too bad that no one in the military has thought of this before - I bet it would be useful.

Not at all. She should've walked right up to him and shot him in the face if she was being ballsy.

I'm not arguing tactical merit. Hell I'm a firm believer in cowards living a hell of a lot longer than ballsy people. Subversion and subtly get you a lot further than honesty and head on attacks. I'm arguing it being a so called ballsy move. It's not.  Renegade Shep's pimp smack of Wrex with the gun before blowing his brains out was ballsy. Ashley? No.

Thanks for assuming that I'm too much of an idiot to realize flanking was a good idea though. Maybe you should actually read what you're trying to correct someone on next time eh?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[Shepard Wins]

Wait, I thought male Shepard had the galaxy's biggest tool. *nudge nudge*

[sth128]

Shepard Wins wrote...

Wait, I thought male Shepard had the galaxy's biggest tool. *nudge nudge*

Ash had a bigger tool shed.

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Since you brought this up, a person born white, in the '50s, in the deep south isn't racist just because they believe black people should ride at the back of the bus, and use seperate drinking fountains?  After all, they have never been anywhere where this isn't the accepted norm, and so it's just being a product of their environment.  The more people post trying to convince others that Ash isn't racist, the more I'm inclined to believe she is, especially with some of the arguements used to support it.

And Ash never says that aliens are inferior to humans.  Ever.  All she says is that they have different priorities than humans.  And they do.  Turians, in general, will place the survival of the turian species above that of humanity.  Asari will look to save the asari before any other species.  And so on.This is a trait Ash believes all species (including humanity) share.  It's not a matter of good or evil, superiority or inferiority.  It's a matter of survival and continuation of the species.  A natural defensive mechanism.  Part of it may come from her naturally cynical and distrusting nature.  But it's not racism.

Do enlighten me, however, as to where I can read the details of what happened with her Grandfather.  I haven't found anything, and I'm genuinely curious as to the exact circumstances of that encounter, rather than her version of it.  Is there a codex entry of the actual events that I may have missed?  Is there something on a Wiki somewhere, that's quoting an official source, and not an Ashley fan?  I'd like to know what's what there.  Not that, if finding out that the Turians were using their usual tactic of overwhelm with superior force and numbers, surrender was the best option justifies her position or not, just to know what happened as opposed to what she believes happens.

Mass Effect:  Evolution.  Comic that came out last year.  The first issue was in part the seige at Shanxi from the perspective of a young mercenary names Jack Harper.  Of course, given he ends up becoming The Illusive Man that perspective may be a bit slanted as well...

Also masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/First_Contact_War

Thanks for the link, and the info.

[Goneaviking]

robertthebard wrote...
Since you brought this up, a person born white, in the '50s, in the deep south isn't racist just because they believe black people should ride at the back of the bus, and use seperate drinking fountains?  After all, they have never been anywhere where this isn't the accepted norm, and so it's just being a product of their environment.  The more people post trying to convince others that Ash isn't racist, the more I'm inclined to believe she is, especially with some of the arguements used to support it.

I've never spoken to someone born in the American south during that period in time so I don't know them specifically, but I have known a South African raised in the midst of apartheid.

For the most part people don't question the lessons they taught whether by family, teachers or society until something seriously challenges them. The South African I knew said that she honestly believed the propaganda about the black people being happier living away from whites and enforced separateness was not only just the way things were but that that it was for the best.

It was racist absolutely, but it was racism without malice and it was unlearned when she left the environment that bred it. If Ashley began the game as a racist, it would be this kind of racist and she certainly wasn't by the end. As others have said that would make it character development and it would be a good kind of character development.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:03 .

[Goneaviking]

Ryzaki wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

She shot him in the back while he was facing Shepard. That's not balls. That's cowardice.

This confuses me a bit.  So should she have told Wrex to turn around so she could shoot him in the face?  Wait, then his back would be to Shephard.

Oh.  Flanking.  What a concept.  It's too bad that no one in the military has thought of this before - I bet it would be useful.

Not at all. She should've walked right up to him and shot him in the face if she was being ballsy.

I'm not arguing tactical merit. Hell I'm a firm believer in cowards living a hell of a lot longer than ballsy people. Subversion and subtly get you a lot further than honesty and head on attacks. I'm arguing it being a so called ballsy move. It's not.  Renegade Shep's pimp smack of Wrex with the gun before blowing his brains out was ballsy. Ashley? No.

Thanks for assuming that I'm too much of an idiot to realize flanking was a good idea though. Maybe you should actually read what you're trying to correct someone on next time eh?

She does stick a gun in Shepard's face however.

Which is much more ballsy than trying that crap with Wrex because Shepard is a literal killing machine rather than a simply a card carrying revolutionary bad arsed mofo with nothing to lose.

[Ryzaki]

Since she shared that moment with Kaidan I'm rather meh on it. Regardless Wrex was not her being ballsy which makes that smug little no you don't line even more irritating. At least Garrus and Liara show remorse for gunning her down.

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

Also, Ash has got one hell of a quad to pull a gun on an irate, ready-to-kill Wrex when she's on the same continent.

She shot him in the back while he was facing Shepard. That's not balls. That's cowardice.

This confuses me a bit.  So should she have told Wrex to turn around so she could shoot him in the face?  Wait, then his back would be to Shephard.

Oh.  Flanking.  What a concept.  It's too bad that no one in the military has thought of this before - I bet it would be useful.

Not at all. She should've walked right up to him and shot him in the face if she was being ballsy.

I'm not arguing tactical merit. Hell I'm a firm believer in cowards living a hell of a lot longer than ballsy people. Subversion and subtly get you a lot further than honesty and head on attacks. I'm arguing it being a so called ballsy move. It's not.  Renegade Shep's pimp smack of Wrex with the gun before blowing his brains out was ballsy. Ashley? No.

Thanks for assuming that I'm too much of an idiot to realize flanking was a good idea though. Maybe you should actually read what you're trying to correct someone on next time eh?

I was actually commenting on your "it's cowardice" line.  Flanking someone, as you yourself point out, isn't cowardly at all - it's tactically intelligent.  I wasn't talking about whether shooting someone at a distance is "ballsy"; and despite the reference by Manchild, I don't think that he is serious, either. It sure reads like tongue-in-cheek hyperbole (unless he actually thinks that drawing a weapon on someone 10 or 100 or 1000 miles away takes balls, but crossing an ocean before doing so is safer)

[Ryzaki]

She shot him in the back while he was talking to Shepard and then dropped a one liner like she had the nerve to shoot him in the face. Yeah I found that cowardly. Especially considering he was an ally.

I'm willing to bet you guys wouldn't be calling it ballsy for Garrus and Liara if they shot Ashley in the stomach and then dropped a "No you won't be stopping Shepard you're dead." line while her attention was focused on Shepard.

And something being tactically intelligent doesn't make it any less cowardly. Grabbing a child as a hostage in some situations can be tactically intelligent as well as hitting civilian targets instead of military ones. Doesn't make you any less of a spineless coward.

I didn't find her handling of Wrex ballsy in any way shape or form. That goes to renedouche. (and paragon Shep lowering his gun to persuade Wrex with words).

That said I'm not saying she's a coward. No squadmate in the ME series can be called that. All of them have faced danger head on. Even those built for stealth or those that don't do well on the front lines (hi there Kasumi and Mordin).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:47 .

[DirtySHISN0]

I'm so glad i never had to see her shoot Wrex. ME1 is the one part of the series where i like/tolerate Ashley.