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[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

She shot him in the back while he was talking to Shepard and then dropped a one liner like she had the nerve to shoot him in the face. Yeah I found that cowardly. Especially considering he was an ally.

I'm willing to bet you guys wouldn't be calling it ballsy for Garrus and Liara if they shot Ashley in the stomach and then dropped a "No you won't be stopping Shepard you're dead." line while her attention was focused on Shepard.

And something being tactically intelligent doesn't make it any less cowardly. Grabbing a child as a hostage in some situations can be tactically intelligent. Doesn't make you any less of a spineless coward.

I didn't find her handling of Wrex ballsy in any way shape or form. That goes to renedouche. (and paragon Shep lowering his gun to persuade Wrex with words).

That said I'm not saying she's a coward. No squadmate in the ME series can be called that. All of them have faced danger head on. Even those built for stealth or those that don't do well on the front lines (hi there Kasumi and Mordin).

I went to youtube, as I never let Wrex die, even on my initial playthrough of ME1, when I missed his armor quest. 
I'd call her line vindictive, but not cowardly (and certainly not ballsy).   Of course, you did tell her to stand by and be ready to kill him if things get ugly.  Personally, I wish that I could ask Garrus to stnad by in case things got ugly, as he's the sniper .

[Ryzaki]

I found it petty. Then again shows how much more mature the rest of the cast is in comparison truth be told. Along with how she dies like a petulant child where's Kaidan goes out with some dignity. Like I said elsewhere Kaidan makes me feel remorse for shooting him, Ashley just makes me wanna put in a few more rounds while trolling her.

At least we can agree it's not ballsy though.

Not really. He said be ready. Not kill Wrex. There's a reason Shep can give her a signal.

That's pretty much the reason she never makes it off Virmire in 99% of my games. Well that and being a ninjamancing annoying jerkwad. I wanted to shoot her since Eden Prime. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2012 - 11:31 .

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

I found it petty. Then again shows how much more mature the rest of the cast is in comparison truth be told. Along with how she dies like a petulant child where's Kaidan goes out with some dignity. Like I said elsewhere Kaidan makes me feel remorse for shooting him, Ashley just makes me wanna put in a few more rounds while trolling her.

At least we can agree it's not ballsy though.

Not really. He said be ready. Not kill Wrex. There's a reason Shep can give her a signal.

That's pretty much the reason she never makes it off Virmire in 99% of my games. Well that and being a ninjamancing annoying jerkwad. I wanted to shoot her since Eden Prime. <_<

Actually, if you choose one of the dialogue tree optoins, you don't even tell her to be ready - she just tells you that she'll be watching.  You as Shepherd have the option to tell her she was wrong after she kills him.  Or not.

I guess that's my real gripe some of the complaints about Ashley - it really depends on how she responds to your playstyle.  Honestly, rebelshep is much more petty and vindictive if you take or assist with the shot on Wrex.

I've always assumed that the slight changes in dialogue responses were attempts to have the characters fit the tone of your play style.  Saying, "see, there's one dialogue option if you choose tree X where a characer says Y" doesn't indicate that that revels the "truth" about the character, IMO.

[DPSSOC]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Generic Screen Name wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

legion999 wrote...

She's not. ****ing. Racist.

But yeah, her Cerberus hatred went way too far. If you shoot her on the coup mission she'll sometimes even say she hopes the Reapers will send you to hell.

She's pretty overtly racist in the first game.

Nope.

Yep.

*Shepard, Kaiden and Ashley walking in the Citadel during ME1*
Ashley: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals in here."

THAT is racist.

Again you look at the gorrillaphant and the flying jellyfish and tell me what, exactly, indicates intelligence?  What visual indicators of sapience are there?  Let me save you some time, there aren't any.  There are no visible characteristics indicative of a higher form of life, her assessment is purely visual, as she hasn't spoken to any of the aliens before, and should be viewed as such.

[andy6915]

21 pages? I can say this about Ashley... She really stirs the hornets nest on this board.

[krasnoarmeets]

I went so far as to make a racist xenophobic Shep who was a Cerberus sympathiser. She killed Wrex herself because it fit her idiom. She didn't openly support Terra Firma as she just thought they were dumb rednecks and softened a bit towards the end and became all pally with Garrus and Tali. In ME2 she became the Cerberus sympathiser, but Garrus was still her bro etc. She still thinks that Turians in general have sticks up their asses. Come ME3 the Cerberus and TIM turn around was like WTF, but my point is that she got on with Ashley like a house on fire as they were so similar in their attitudes. I think you can compare my engineer's character development to Ashley's to an extent. Except for the cerberus thing. She was certainly racist in ME1, much like Pressley, but characters can grow. It didn't stop her from screwing over the Krogan in the genophage mission, but that was her reaction to the available data. Wreav was in charge and he was a tosser. Bakara died because Maelon's data was not saved, so she agreed with the Salarians that they could not be trusted. She convinced Mordin of that fact too. Ashley has very human flaws which is good. I don't know why they felt the need to make her look like a Barbie doll, but that's neither here nor there...

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:38 .

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...
Actually, if you choose one of the dialogue tree optoins, you don't even tell her to be ready - she just tells you that she'll be watching.  You as Shepherd have the option to tell her she was wrong after she kills him.  Or not.

I guess that's my real gripe some of the complaints about Ashley - it really depends on how she responds to your playstyle.  Honestly, rebelshep is much more petty and vindictive if you take or assist with the shot on Wrex.

I've always assumed that the slight changes in dialogue responses were attempts to have the characters fit the tone of your play style.  Saying, "see, there's one dialogue option if you choose tree X where a characer says Y" doesn't indicate that that revels the "truth" about the character, IMO.

Oh yeah but to me it's like the weaksauce "I won't work with Cerberus!" cry in ME2. She goes "meh whatever." and that's it. Well until I leave her to be nuked.

My Shep didn't assist with that shot on Wrex and he still got that one liner. He was nice to Wrex. She was just a jerkwad who kept trying to get into his pants. Only way to get her to knock it off was to be rude or to tell her to stuff (viable anyway) concerns. Which...bleh. 

[robertthebard]

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I found it petty. Then again shows how much more mature the rest of the cast is in comparison truth be told. Along with how she dies like a petulant child where's Kaidan goes out with some dignity. Like I said elsewhere Kaidan makes me feel remorse for shooting him, Ashley just makes me wanna put in a few more rounds while trolling her.

At least we can agree it's not ballsy though.

Not really. He said be ready. Not kill Wrex. There's a reason Shep can give her a signal.

That's pretty much the reason she never makes it off Virmire in 99% of my games. Well that and being a ninjamancing annoying jerkwad. I wanted to shoot her since Eden Prime. <_<

Actually, if you choose one of the dialogue tree optoins, you don't even tell her to be ready - she just tells you that she'll be watching.  You as Shepherd have the option to tell her she was wrong after she kills him.  Or not.

I guess that's my real gripe some of the complaints about Ashley - it really depends on how she responds to your playstyle.  Honestly, rebelshep is much more petty and vindictive if you take or assist with the shot on Wrex.

I've always assumed that the slight changes in dialogue responses were attempts to have the characters fit the tone of your play style.  Saying, "see, there's one dialogue option if you choose tree X where a characer says Y" doesn't indicate that that revels the "truth" about the character, IMO.

That's the thing about SP games though; some people might always choose "Y", and they can flip that arguement around on people that always choose "X", while the people that have played both can only /facepalm the whole thing.  The problem with the position of revealing the truth about the character is that both are correct.  Whether you always choose "X" or "Y", the NPC in question will always be true to that choice.  If you paragon everybody's favorite punching bag reporter in the first two games, you get a completely different line than if you punch her in the first two, and then paragon her in the third.  Which version is valid depends entirely on how you handle it, since all have to be valid.

Regarding the Nature vs Nurture discussion of racism, it doesn't matter.  You don't have to be a "card carrying member of (insert your favorite racist organization here)" to be a racist.  All that's required is to "buy the lie" that one is inherently better or worse than another.  I don't find Ashley to be racist, but I have had first hand experience with racism, being raised in the Deep South while black people were expected to ride at the back of the bus, and drink from different fountains in public areas.  Despite what people may want to believe, and the fact that yes, it was before a lot of people's time, it wasn't all that long ago, really.  Whether it's "raised to believe that way" or simply "believing that way", the belief system is there.  "Growing out of it" does indeed show character development; but the problem with that scenario is the rampant denial of the condition in the first place.

Which brings me back to the always choose xxxx lines of dialog.  It would be extremely easy to paint Ashley as a complete card carrying member of any racist organization based entirely on what she says in response to what you say.  If I'm Femshep, and can't romance her, I may not go all paragon on her, or all renegade, in fact, I may not even be consistent in paragon/renegade in the same conversation, because some lines that are intended to be renegade may come across, to me, as more kick a puppy evil than renegade.  Depending on how I'm approaching Shepard, she's going to be a different person, until ME 2.  No matter what, she's going to flat out reject any form of logical discussion, based solely on personal feelings.  As far as she's concerned, you're the dog, only suitable to be thrown under the bus so she can get away.  Because no matter how you slice it, no matter how you want to justify her "righteous indignation" at your working for/with Cerberus, that's what she's doing.  That's why, if you choose to save your crew, you get to see Lilith melted instead of Ashley, despite the fact that, if they got Lilith, they sure should have gotten Ashley first, since it sure seems like they started on that end of town and worked their way in.

[robertthebard]

DPSSOC wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Generic Screen Name wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

legion999 wrote...

She's not. ****ing. Racist.

But yeah, her Cerberus hatred went way too far. If you shoot her on the coup mission she'll sometimes even say she hopes the Reapers will send you to hell.

She's pretty overtly racist in the first game.

Nope.

Yep.

*Shepard, Kaiden and Ashley walking in the Citadel during ME1*
Ashley: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals in here."

THAT is racist.

Again you look at the gorrillaphant and the flying jellyfish and tell me what, exactly, indicates intelligence?  What visual indicators of sapience are there?  Let me save you some time, there aren't any.  There are no visible characteristics indicative of a higher form of life, her assessment is purely visual, as she hasn't spoken to any of the aliens before, and should be viewed as such.

So you "buy the lie" that one is inherently better because you can't see that they are sentient intelligent beings?  You ever watch any of the video shows on TV?  If we based our opinion of humanity purely on those...

[Bleachrude]

Arken wrote...

Ashley is more xenophobic than racist. She sees aliens as different than humans, but doesn't inherently wish them or ill. When Ashley meets members of Terra Firma, she even points out she doesn't approve of their hostility towards aliens. She just thinks humans need to find their own place in the galaxy.

This is why Ashley's reaction to Cerberus pisses me off. Cerberus represents everything Ashley believes in, and yet she is intent on hating the organization even before they went completely brain dead.

Actually, that isn't THAT hard to explain...Remember, prior to ME2, what was Ashley's interaction with Cerebus? Was there ANY positive portrayal of Cerebus in ME1

[obZen DF]

Today, while playing ME1, I talked with the Terra Firma dude. And Ash said to him: "It's a Noble goal. To bad most of you are just racist" And she said it with an angry tone.

[Lokanaiya]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Ashley: "Humans have to stick together and look out for ourselves, because when the time comes aliens will only watch out and take care of their own people!"

ME2--
Tali: finishes the job assigned to her by the admiralty board, comes with Shepard as soon as she can.
Garrus: Whether or not he's going to come back to the Normandy with you and join your squad is never even discussed, because the second he sees you he's already decided he's going to join your crew again.
Wrex: Greets you with genuine warmth on Tuchanka and, out of everyone else, is the happiest to see you alive. Would come with you, but he's busy leading the krogan, trying to make a better future for them.
Liara: Recovers your body and gives you to Cerberus in the first place, helps you out as much as she can, but is busy being an information broker. In the LotSB and the scene on the Normandy proves how much Shepard and Liara trust each other. She also gives you free access to many of her resources as Shadow Broker.
Every alien squadmate + Jack: States repeatedly that they are only there because of Shepard and are very loyal to Shepard by the end.
Ashley: Shepard saves her life (again) on Horizon, and she responds by giving Shepard hell about some rumors and reports she's heard without giving Shepard much of a chance to explain and not really listening to what Shepard does say.

And let's not even get into ME3.

For someone who believes so strongly that humans should stick together, you'd think she'd be more inclined to support or at least listen to Shepard than some of those "aliens who will only look out for themselves."

Any Ashley supporter going to respond to this?

[iamweaver]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Ashley: "Humans have to stick together and look out for ourselves, because when the time comes aliens will only watch out and take care of their own people!"

ME2--
Tali: finishes the job assigned to her by the admiralty board, comes with Shepard as soon as she can.
Garrus: Whether or not he's going to come back to the Normandy with you and join your squad is never even discussed, because the second he sees you he's already decided he's going to join your crew again.
Wrex: Greets you with genuine warmth on Tuchanka and, out of everyone else, is the happiest to see you alive. Would come with you, but he's busy leading the krogan, trying to make a better future for them.
Liara: Recovers your body and gives you to Cerberus in the first place, helps you out as much as she can, but is busy being an information broker. In the LotSB and the scene on the Normandy proves how much Shepard and Liara trust each other. She also gives you free access to many of her resources as Shadow Broker.
Every alien squadmate + Jack: States repeatedly that they are only there because of Shepard and are very loyal to Shepard by the end.
Ashley: Shepard saves her life (again) on Horizon, and she responds by giving Shepard hell about some rumors and reports she's heard without giving Shepard much of a chance to explain and not really listening to what Shepard does say.

And let's not even get into ME3.

For someone who believes so strongly that humans should stick together, you'd think she'd be more inclined to support or at least listen to Shepard than some of those "aliens who will only look out for themselves."

Any Ashley supporter going to respond to this?

Sure.  Ashley was speaking in more general terms about the political systems, not about individuals with whom she got to know.  But the botom line is that Ashley is a suspicious person.  She requires a lot of proof before she'll trust anyone, and it's not too tough to remove that level of trust, especially if,say, you are involved with the organization that did all of the absolutely terrible things that we saw in ME1.

That said, there's certainly a level of disconnect between her email to you in ME2 (if you got it), and her actions in the beginning of ME3.  I won't deny that.

[Goneaviking]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Ashley: "Humans have to stick together and look out for ourselves, because when the time comes aliens will only watch out and take care of their own people!"

ME2--
Tali: finishes the job assigned to her by the admiralty board, comes with Shepard as soon as she can.
Garrus: Whether or not he's going to come back to the Normandy with you and join your squad is never even discussed, because the second he sees you he's already decided he's going to join your crew again.
Wrex: Greets you with genuine warmth on Tuchanka and, out of everyone else, is the happiest to see you alive. Would come with you, but he's busy leading the krogan, trying to make a better future for them.
Liara: Recovers your body and gives you to Cerberus in the first place, helps you out as much as she can, but is busy being an information broker. In the LotSB and the scene on the Normandy proves how much Shepard and Liara trust each other. She also gives you free access to many of her resources as Shadow Broker.
Every alien squadmate + Jack: States repeatedly that they are only there because of Shepard and are very loyal to Shepard by the end.
Ashley: Shepard saves her life (again) on Horizon, and she responds by giving Shepard hell about some rumors and reports she's heard without giving Shepard much of a chance to explain and not really listening to what Shepard does say.

And let's not even get into ME3.

For someone who believes so strongly that humans should stick together, you'd think she'd be more inclined to support or at least listen to Shepard than some of those "aliens who will only look out for themselves."

Any Ashley supporter going to respond to this?

Sure thing.

Tali- finishes her (peoples') priorities before coming and helping her old friend who she may be secretly in love with already.
Garrus- comes with you after his one attempt at forging an identity for himself ends in what would have been a fatal confrontation had Shepard not saved his life. His attempt to rejoin C-Sec, or sign up with the Spectres, failed because he just can't fit in anywhere other than with a ragtag band of heroes and mercenaries.
Wrex- has his own priorities which he pursues, which is fair enough.
Liara- obsessed with you since almost the first moment she saw you, still puts you on hold to pursue her own agenda - the rescue of Theron and then assuming the role of the Shadow Broker
Thane- ready to die, he expected to die in his mission against frau Dantius and only mustered the enthusiasm to keep breathing because Shepard intrigued him and continues to journey with him in part to make up for a lifetime of murders - whether or not he acknowledges it directly his conversation with his son suggests he feels guilt for his actions.
Samara- Shepard gave her an excuse not to kill those cops. She didn't want to kill those cops, but she's enslaved by a code that's so strict it makes Garrus' complaints about the rules and regulations at C-Sec look like a whining crybaby.
Morinth- Only survives her encounter with Shepard by offering to work for him.
Grunt- His only prerogative is to fight the biggest, baddest enemies he can find. That means signing up with Shepard.
Mordin- Trapped under the crushing weight of his participation in the millennia long campaign of genocide conducted against the krogan he quits his job working for his government to open up a clinic in a slum on Omega, only leaving to try and help stop another genocide in progress.

Did I leave anyone out?

Every single one of the aliens who joins with Shepard either does it in service to their own agenda, or takes care of their agenda ahead of Shepard's.

[Ryzaki]

...Every single sentinent species in the world puts their own agenda ahead of another's. Even humanity (honestly if anything humanity was a lot more obnoxious about it "we need help for Earth!" NVM everyone's being hit by the Reapers)

[DPSSOC]

robertthebard wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Again you look at the gorrillaphant and the flying jellyfish and tell me what, exactly, indicates intelligence?  What visual indicators of sapience are there?  Let me save you some time, there aren't any.  There are no visible characteristics indicative of a higher form of life, her assessment is purely visual, as she hasn't spoken to any of the aliens before, and should be viewed as such.

So you "buy the lie" that one is inherently better because you can't see that they are sentient intelligent beings?  You ever watch any of the video shows on TV?  If we based our opinion of humanity purely on those...

Don't have cable actually.  My wording was bad what I meant was that there are no universal visual indicators of intelligence and sapience for any species.  It's not like we can say, "Well species X has visual characteristic Y and therefore is sapient."  Despite this fact we tend to associate human characteristics with higher forms of life, which is why so many aliens in sci-fi and intelligent species in fantasy are humanoid.  Ash's comment is simply a statement that it's difficult to tell which species are intelligent because some, like the elcor and the hanar, look more like Earth animals.  Again it is a purely visual assessment, she's not making a comment on the intelligence or behaviour of other species, merely their appearance.  It's shallow but it isn't racist.

[DPSSOC]

Ryzaki wrote...
...Every single sentinent species in the world puts their own agenda ahead of another's.

 
Just like Ash said they would.

Ryzaki wrote...
Even humanity (honestly if anything humanity was a lot more obnoxious about it "we need help for Earth!" NVM everyone's being hit by the Reapers)

Actually no they aren't.  Well not when the request is actually made.  At the time of the request only the Human and Turian homeworlds have been taken, the Reapers haven't hit Sur'Kesh or Thessia yet, and if I'm not mistaken they haven't even moved into Asari space (or was it the Salarians? maybe I'm wrong).  Even if they were Earth is being hit the hardest and, from a human perspective, hesitation means extinction.  Yes the humans are pushing hard for their world, in truth all of their worlds, because if the Council sits on it their species is doomed.

[Ryzaki]

Wrong. Batarian homeworlds were completely overrun and the Reapers were pushing at everyone else's borders. Just because homeworlds weren't under attack didn't mean colonies weren't.

And yeah it is very obnoxious. As for Earth being hit the hardest I'm inclined to agree with the Salarian councilor on that one. There's obvious bias there.

And no humans were pushing hard for THEIR world. They weren't saying "let's build an army to defeat the Reapers." but instead "Earth earth earth." and since my Shep was either a spacer or a colonist hearing him bleet about Earth got annoying real quick.

[RyanSoup]

Ashley mentions how she'd rather shoot "tin cans" (Geth), than organic targets right before Rannoch. Just saying.

[DPSSOC]

Ryzaki wrote...
And no humans were pushing hard for THEIR world. They weren't saying "let's build an army to defeat the Reapers." but instead "Earth earth earth." and since my Shep was either a spacer or a colonist hearing him bleet about Earth got annoying real quick.

Poor phrasing I meant all human worlds.  At the point Earth gets hit Alliance space is already overrun.  Mainly because their military and government seems to be run by people who eat paste.

[DevilBeast]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wrong. Batarian homeworlds were completely overrun and the Reapers were pushing at everyone else's borders. Just because homeworlds weren't under attack didn't mean colonies weren't.

And yeah it is very obnoxious. As for Earth being hit the hardest I'm inclined to agree with the Salarian councilor on that one. There's obvious bias there.

And no humans were pushing hard for THEIR world. They weren't saying "let's build an army to defeat the Reapers." but instead "Earth earth earth." and since my Shep was either a spacer or a colonist hearing him bleet about Earth got annoying real quick.

My thoughts exactly. The whole "Take Earth Back!" sentiment just made me cringe.
My Shepard didn´t fight the reapers just to save one single planet, she fought to save the whole bloody galaxy!

[Ryzaki]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And no humans were pushing hard for THEIR world. They weren't saying "let's build an army to defeat the Reapers." but instead "Earth earth earth." and since my Shep was either a spacer or a colonist hearing him bleet about Earth got annoying real quick.

Poor phrasing I meant all human worlds.  At the point Earth gets hit Alliance space is already overrun.  Mainly because their military and government seems to be run by people who eat paste.

Yeah but the planet they seem fixated on is Earth. Which is bleeeh to me. Wouldn't be so bad if Shepard didn't join in it.

And yeah this cycle's governement was idiotic. The Protheans would've curbstomped the Reapers if they got the warning our cycles got.

[Iakus]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
ady overrun.  Mainly because their military and government seems to be run by people who eat paste.[/quote]

Yeah but the planet they seem fixated on is Earth. Which is bleeeh to me. Wouldn't be so bad if Shepard didn't join in it.

And yeah this cycle's governement was idiotic. The Protheans would've curbstomped the Reapers if they got the warning our cycles got.

[/quote]

THey way I figure it, that's where the vast majority of the human population is.  They'd only been traveling the relay network for a few decades, while every other race had been doing so for centuries or even millenia.  They were probably spread out a lot more.

If the sol system got eaten by the Reapers, what's left of humanity would likely end up like the drell...

[Ryzaki]

That really doesn't make it any less obnoxious.

...why would humanity end up like the drell? Unlike the drell humans can live quite peacefully on most planets other council species live on.