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Ashley Williams: the Galaxy's Biggest Tool


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#101
Iakus

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Goneaviking wrote...

I agree that her concerns are rational and well founded. It does become problematic however when she witnesses Shepard killing Cerberus' troops, telling the Illusive Man he's a tool and just the fact that Shepard saves her life after she gets taken down by Eva when it would have been easy and convenient to just kill her en route to the Citadel given her open distrust for Shepard and Cerberus.

Overall I don't even really have a problem with her writing in this regard, but I can't see why Shepard would invite her back into his crew given their problematic relationship. It just seems like asking for trouble that neither of them can afford.


It's pretty clear TIM doesn't value human life very much.  He could have been quite willing to sacrifice them to avoid blowing Shepard's "cover" Particularly if Shepard didn't know about a control chip either.

And I don't know about anyone else, but after Mars and the Eva incident, Ash told my Shep that she accepts Shepard cut all ties with Cerberus.  She even voiced a preference for rejoining the Normandy once she was healed up. 

It didn't come up again until the coup, when Shep came bursting out of an elevator shaft full of Cerberus assassins.  Even then she was pretty quick to believe Shepard's version. 

Modifié par iakus, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:23 .


#102
Fawx9

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sth128 wrote...

iSousek wrote...

Ashley is not a tool, she is maybe the only realistic character in the game who is not written to appease egos and fantasies of childish gamers.

Well I guess you think Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Anderson, etc. are all there to appease the gamers.

And BTW if she acts like a complete douche to you, guess what, you have no one to blame but yourself and how you treated her.

Yeah, if I save someone from mortal danger twice in a row, it's only fitting that they treat me like the enemy. And after I surrender myself and am acquitted, the only reasonable course of action is to accuse me of working with the enemy when I'm shooting my way through them.

Because saving someone's life = evil. Shooting your enemies = working for them. The lack of hospital visits = definitive evidence of TIM's pawn, regardless of the giant robots and galactic chaos.

So no, Ashley never abandons you, it is you who abandons her.

Nope. She abandoned the Normandy. She abandoned Shepard. She abandoned Shepard again when she finds him on Horizon. She abandoned Shepard a third time when he surrenders to the Alliance.

In contrast, Joker didn't just run off. Liara didn't just run off. Tali joined Shepard and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Garrus trusted Shepard. The Council gave Shepard back his Spectre status.

Ash would not even be where she is without Shepard. Ash would be a corpse riddled with Geth blaster shots or a mindless husk without Shepard.

Shepard NEVER abandoned Ash.


Im going to skip over the ME2 ****storm cause that was the fault of Liara (oh hey you could have told the others im back) Anderson(tell me where the VS is dammit so i can contact them and tell them im safe) and a badly written way to keep a character off your sqaud.

Starting with ME3, Ash is hesitant probably because she's still a bit confused about the Cerberus thing and realizes she made a fool of herself, but wants to try and get things working again. As soon as she sees the mind rapped soldiers her old doubts start bubbling up again. At this point its up to both of you to fix that. There is no reason to believe that her fears will go away because she got some sleep. Especially when its been shown that people who are indoctrinated can still fight those that are controlling them. Hell TIM thought he was doing work to stop the reapers the entire time while actually helping them.

The only reason she is tool to you is because her realistic fears don't fade away in your shepards almighty presence. It's apparently an affront to you that you might actually have to help her through it.

#103
Ageless Face

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robertthebard wrote...
Yes, because spending the first hour of the game harping on you about why Cerberus is on Mars == not a tool.  Racist, I don't see it, tool?  Yes, yes I do.  If I could shoot her on the elevator on Mars, I would.  If I could shoot her in the Tram Control/Tram bay, I would.  If I could shoot her on Horizon, I would.  I didn't like the idea of being shoehorned into working for Cerberus in 2 either, but when she had a chance to help me keep the mission clean of Cerberus taint, she walked away.  How come we can't say:  She's dead, after Eva bot bangs her on the shuttle, and just leave her?


How is someone that doesn't go with the pack, go with what they believe in, a tool? Ashley questioned Shepard when none other did. She questioned Shepard when s/he needed to be questioned. Ashley didn't just follow Shepard blindly.

If you want to shoot her, then those are your personal feelings because you don't like her, wether it's because she questioned Shepard or from any other reason. In my opinion, Shepard deserved the mistrust. In my opinon, Shepard deserved to get hit by Ashley. Even with saving the galaxy, Shepard worked for the wrong people. Terrorists. Ashley has the right to doubt Shepard after that. If not her, then who will? If not for people like Ashley (or Kaidan, btw) the galaxy will already be under Cerberus's rule. Or at least very close to it. Cerberus themselves knew that with Shepard's help, they can go way up in the galaxy.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .


#104
sth128

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iamweaver wrote...

Why should the VS survivor trust you? The Shepherd she knew...

Died.

Completely, totally, dead, a corpse for days.

Wrong right there. The Alliance never found Shepard's body. The Alliance probably didn't even search. Liara found Shepard's body and gave it to Cerberus because TIM promised they have the resources and ability to bring Shepard back. Hell, it was Shepard who actually went to the Normandy crash site and collected the dog tags. The Alliance just said "eh they probably all got KIA, just give them all a funeral, saves us the money to actually search".

Ash didn't care. Just like the Alliance didn't care.

Need I remind you that the Alliance never bother building another Normandy? Anderson intended to take the SR2 as his personal command vessel, a vessel built by Cerberus?

What, Anderson didn't have enough clout to get the shipyards to build another Normandy? They had to wait till the terrorist organization to build one then commandeer it?

The Alliance never bother to train or promote another human Spectre either. Ash is the second human Spectre. It's been 3 years since a human got a seat on the Council. The Alliance sat there the entire time saying "meh, sure the first human Spectre stopped a giant killer robot. But that's probably a myth. We don't need to send anyone to investigate this or build another ship. Hey apparently Shepard's back let's just sit back and see what he does".

And Ash? She was part of that "sit back and do nothing" crowd.

Well, not nothing. She did send a couple of e-mails.

Modifié par sth128, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .


#105
Iakus

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Goneaviking wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...
Did you even had conversations with her or are you just basing your argument on one remark of her?
Because if you talked to her you would know that she is not a racist. She hates even the Terra Firma Party because they have a lot of racist people in there.


That's toward the end of the game, bro.  You're cherry picking examples that don't fit.  She's pretty open about it early on in the game


What dialog makes you think she's racist. Please post it.


It's the part about siccing your dog on a bear so that you can escape (and that that's what aliens would do to us) because as much as you like your dog you know it's not human and you wouldn't die for it.

Also worth noting that it's pretty much what happened in when push came to shove.


Yup.  The asari Councilor pretty much admits it on your first trip to the Citadel in ME3.  While the Reapers are concentrating on Earth, the other races can build up their defenses.  Bear.  Dog.

Ash was right. Posted Image

#106
Zkyire

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RyanSoup wrote...

legion999 wrote...

She's not. ****ing. Racist.

But yeah, her Cerberus hatred went way too far. If you shoot her on the coup mission she'll sometimes even say she hopes the Reapers will send you to hell.


She's pretty overtly racist in the first game.


No she's not.

#107
sth128

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Fawx9 wrote...

Im going to skip over the ME2 ****storm cause that was the fault of Liara (oh hey you could have told the others im back) Anderson(tell me where the VS is dammit so i can contact them and tell them im safe) and a badly written way to keep a character off your sqaud.

I don't think so. Shepard has been sitting in Vancouver for six months. Ash knew the whole time where Shepard was. Ash read all the mission reports on Shepard's activity. Ash knew why Shepard did the things he did. Ash probably knew Shepard had Hackett's approval to blow up the Alpha Relay.

Ash CERTAINLY knew who Shepard romanced (if he did). Ash seems pretty well-informed on who Shepard is and what he is fighting for. Even if you visited Ash in Heurta, she still finds ways to accuse you of being unfaithful or untrustworthy.

Ash is letting her personal issues to cloud her judgement.

Hey Ash, it's your OWN DAMN FAULT for not following Shepard the second time around. If you had, Shepard would have gone on a personal quest to resolve all your lingering parental, familial, emotional, and other puberty-related issues like he did for EVERYONE ELSE.

It's Ash's own fault for not jumping on the shrink session train.:o

Modifié par sth128, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:36 .


#108
iamweaver

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sth128 wrote...

Wrong right there. The Alliance never found Shepard's body. The Alliance probably didn't even search. Liara found Shepard's body and gave it to Cerberus because TIM promised they have the resources and ability to bring Shepard back. Hell, it was Shepard who actually went to the Normandy crash site and collected the dog tags. The Alliance just said "eh they probably all got KIA, just give them all a funeral, saves us the money to actually search".

Ash didn't care. Just like the Alliance didn't care.

Again - you're investing yourself too much in the suspension of disbelief in the story.

It's hardly unsurprising that the Alliance didn't find the bodies - because the Normandy was destroyed in space, where (despite the nice Normandy wreck DLC), bodies would have gone off on varying trajectories if they weren't in the ship. The bodies could be literally anywhere within a million cubic miles of space - assuming they didn't reenter the atmosphere of the planet below, which should have incinerated them (Shepherd's body was protected by plot armor). I think your mind is mired in the earthbound idea of finding bodies where they lie.

The only reason that Liara was motivated to do so was that her information net picked up hints that the Collectors were searching for it - and if it was there, she darn sure wanted to find it first.  Otherwise, it would be a criminal waste of resources to spend searching for one corpse.

Second - Ashley is a soldier,  She gets assigned to a duty station. She'd better not be trying to hare off on some weird mission to recover the corpse of her friend who was last seen floating away from the wreckage.

#109
Archontor

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nhsknudsen wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

Tell me why she tells Terra Firma to pack their **** up then and leave?

She only states that humanity should not cater to alien interests before their own, as aliens will surely cater to their interests before humans.

Kinda the same way nations work on Earth, really. How alarmingly racist...


She also states that she's uncomfortable letting the aliens roam the Normandy freely.


Well, I doubt many Americans let Chinese people roam their most advanced aircraft carrier freely, or even British who are allies, Catch the drift?


She complains about Garrus though, a turian. Turians helped design the ship what could they learn that they didn't already learn in the time spent building it.

#110
garrusfan1

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Well I admit it was annoying (it was with Kaiden too) but if you think about it it makes sense. Honestly in a few of the side missions in me1 you fight them and they are doing horrible things. But everyone all of a sudden says hey Shepard you died and were rebuilt by Cerberus you must be good. The VS actually makes more sense

#111
Master Alenko

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She is a pure ****. She even wants to tease Liara about her sex life in ME1. I really just wanted to beat her up sometimes in ME1. Killing her on Virmire was ultra satisfying.

#112
Han Shot First

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Ashley isn't a racist.

The whole argument that she is racist is mostly based on the 'I can't tell the aliens from the animals' line. The problem is that line was originally intended only to be said in reference to the Keepers, and it is a bug that she says it out of context.

Her hostility towards Liara in ME1 also wasn't racism. It was jealousy. Ashley wouldn't have reacted any diffrently had Liara been a human woman.

Also if you bring Ashley along to the Terra Firma rally she'll act quite hostile towards them, and makes it clear that she views their racist platform as an embarrasment for humanity. She can also have an elevator conversation with Tali where she'll say that she hopes Tali's contributions help lessen the discrimination Quarians face.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .


#113
Archontor

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CHALET wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

legion999 wrote...

She's not. ****ing. Racist.

But yeah, her Cerberus hatred went way too far. If you shoot her on the coup mission she'll sometimes even say she hopes the Reapers will send you to hell.


" I cant tell the animals from the aliens!" - quote Ashley Williams on the Citadel. Yup. Definitely not racist.


Or it could just be her describing the wide array of spiecies. I mean if you saw a Elcor before hearing it speak wouldn't you assume it was some sort of pack mule? If you saw a Hanar you'd assume it was just a jellyfish.



Well a space station wouldn't need pack mules or jellyfish and certainly wouldn't give them clothes or mass effect fields respectively. Also every hardsuit has it's own computer with it's own codex and information on each species, if she read it and knows she's a ****, if she dosen't than she's just too lazy to listen to a computer read to her for a few minutes in that wonderful voice.

#114
iamweaver

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sth128 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Im going to skip over the ME2 ****storm cause that was the fault of Liara (oh hey you could have told the others im back) Anderson(tell me where the VS is dammit so i can contact them and tell them im safe) and a badly written way to keep a character off your sqaud.

I don't think so. Shepard has been sitting in Vancouver for six months. Ash knew the whole time where Shepard was. Ash read all the mission reports on Shepard's activity. Ash knew why Shepard did the things he did. Ash probably knew Shepard had Hackett's approval to blow up the Alpha Relay.

Ash CERTAINLY knew who Shepard romanced (if he did). Ash seems pretty well-informed on who Shepard is and what he is fighting for. Even if you visited Ash in Heurta, she still finds ways to accuse you of being unfaithful or untrustworthy.

Ash is letting her personal issues to cloud her judgement.

Hey Ash, it's your OWN DAMN FAULT for not following Shepard the second time around. If you had, Shepard would have gone on a personal quest to resolve all your lingering parental, familial, emotional, and other puberty-related issues like he did for EVERYONE ELSE.

It's Ash's own fault for not jumping on the shrink session train.:o


How do you know any of this?  That the VS knew where Shepherd was being held under house arrest, or that Shep could receive visitors, or that the VS was able to read reports on Shepherd?   

The only thing that the game tells us is that the VS knows whether Shep had other love interests (which all RPG LI's seem to automatically always know, somehow).  It's an artificial constraint of the RPG mechanics - though if you are role playing it, and the VS was your ME1 LI, and you chose another LI for ME2, then you certainly should be upset that the VS knew that, but continues to spout dialogue as though they knew nothing else.  This is actually Bioware's fault for not creating more detailed different dialogue chains depending on prior choices, but if you romanced her,  role-playing it this way makes sense.

#115
dublin omega 223

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Arken wrote...

Ashley is more xenophobic than racist. She sees aliens as different than humans, but doesn't inherently wish them or ill. When Ashley meets members of Terra Firma, she even points out she doesn't approve of their hostility towards aliens. She just thinks humans need to find their own place in the galaxy.

This is why Ashley's reaction to Cerberus pisses me off. Cerberus represents everything Ashley believes in, and yet she is intent on hating the organization even before they went completely brain dead.


You got a point with the way Ashley is, she would have been the perfect Cerberus agent and I always saw her has a racist myself but thats just my own opinion.

#116
iamweaver

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Master Alenko wrote...

She is a pure ****. She even wants to tease Liara about her sex life in ME1. I really just wanted to beat her up sometimes in ME1. Killing her on Virmire was ultra satisfying.


Now this - this annoyed me about her, especially when she recognizes its cruelty.  On my first play-through long ago, I can still remember coming up short when I heard this, but assuming that Bioware added this in as a catty jealous remark.

Seeing the remark this time through as a FemShep with no romance option with her, I just found it insulting.

#117
Fawx9

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sth128 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Im going to skip over the ME2 ****storm cause that was the fault of Liara (oh hey you could have told the others im back) Anderson(tell me where the VS is dammit so i can contact them and tell them im safe) and a badly written way to keep a character off your sqaud.

I don't think so. Shepard has been sitting in Vancouver for six months. Ash knew the whole time where Shepard was. Ash read all the mission reports on Shepard's activity. Ash knew why Shepard did the things he did. Ash probably knew Shepard had Hackett's approval to blow up the Alpha Relay.

Ash CERTAINLY knew who Shepard romanced (if he did). Ash seems pretty well-informed on who Shepard is and what he is fighting for. Even if you visited Ash in Heurta, she still finds ways to accuse you of being unfaithful or untrustworthy.

Ash is letting her personal issues to cloud her judgement.

Hey Ash, it's your OWN DAMN FAULT for not following Shepard the second time around. If you had, Shepard would have gone on a personal quest to resolve all your lingering parental, familial, emotional, and other puberty-related issues like he did for EVERYONE ELSE.

It's Ash's own fault for not jumping on the shrink session train.:o


Your irrantionality is making your arguements a mess.

In ME2 Shepard was no where close to Vancouver. The only people that knew about him were Liara, Cerberus and anyone he came into contact with post lazarus. Ash had no idea except random news feeds what he was up to until they met on Horizon(you can thank writing, anderson and liara for that). There was no way she could make a rational decision the way the writers wrote it. She wasn't alone taking on mercs or digging in ruins, she had a squad and outpost to look after. The VS was designed(as in the writing gods demanded it) to say no, even if the reasoning is suspect, which is why I wanted to skip over it.

As for the rest, she only learned those things when he was picked up afer the collector mess. We don't know what she was up to, maybe she had a mission of her own that she couldn't get up and take a 3 week vacation on. It doesn't really matter, the first thing I saw was someone upset and flustered over the whole ordeal wanting to set things straight. Which you could either dismiss or start working with her again to bring back the working relationship they had before.

And she does jump on that train in the third if you do talk to her, the fact that it didn't happen in the second is what bothers you?

#118
Marauder Shields N7

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 I didn't mind her in first two games but in the 3rd she was dull as a doorknob and bioware made her uglier too.

#119
Iakus

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Master Alenko wrote...

She is a pure ****. She even wants to tease Liara about her sex life in ME1. I really just wanted to beat her up sometimes in ME1. Killing her on Virmire was ultra satisfying.


Umm, that was a joke concerning Liara not being any good at lying.  She even does a playful "you're no fun" when you tell her that's not a good idea.

Keep in mind, this is the Ash who tells you to go talk to Liara after Benezia's death, noting she just lost her mother and is likely in pain.

#120
Han Shot First

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Marauder Shields N7 wrote...

 I didn't mind her in first two games but in the 3rd she was dull as a doorknob and bioware made her uglier too.


I thought she was kind of hot in ME3.




Posted Image


Posted Image

#121
Ryzaki

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...Just let her die on Virmire.

There you go.

#122
Zjarcal

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I got to kill her in ME3, that makes up for any annoying things she did in the previous games.Posted Image

#123
Ageless Face

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Han Shot First wrote...

Marauder Shields N7 wrote...

 I didn't mind her in first two games but in the 3rd she was dull as a doorknob and bioware made her uglier too.


I thought she was kind of hot in ME3.

*Snip*

*Snip*


She's not ugly in ME3. But she doesn't have the same hidden beauty she used to have. She's just a sex model for horny guys (or women?). The fact she's hot in ME3 is the problem. Too much sex appeal. Never mind the fact she's the last character you'd expect that from.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .


#124
robertthebard

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HagarIshay wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Yes, because spending the first hour of the game harping on you about why Cerberus is on Mars == not a tool.  Racist, I don't see it, tool?  Yes, yes I do.  If I could shoot her on the elevator on Mars, I would.  If I could shoot her in the Tram Control/Tram bay, I would.  If I could shoot her on Horizon, I would.  I didn't like the idea of being shoehorned into working for Cerberus in 2 either, but when she had a chance to help me keep the mission clean of Cerberus taint, she walked away.  How come we can't say:  She's dead, after Eva bot bangs her on the shuttle, and just leave her?


How is someone that doesn't go with the pack, go with what they believe in, a tool? Ashley questioned Shepard when none other did. She questioned Shepard when s/he needed to be questioned. Ashley didn't just follow Shepard blindly.

If you want to shoot her, then those are your personal feelings because you don't like her, wether it's because she questioned Shepard or from any other reason. In my opinion, Shepard deserved the mistrust. In my opinon, Shepard deserved to get hit by Ashley. Even with saving the galaxy, Shepard worked for the wrong people. Terrorists. Ashley has the right to doubt Shepard after that. If not her, then who will? If not for people like Ashley (or Kaidan, btw) the galaxy will already be under Cerberus's rule. Or at least very close to it. Cerberus themselves knew that with Shepard's help, they can go way up in the galaxy.

In just what context did Shepard need to be questioned, especially after James makes it clear that there was no way Shepard had any contact with Cerberus after he turns himself in.  This is an important detail, there was no pitched battle in which Shepard was captured, he turned himself in, after delaying yet another Reaper plot, all while the Alliance/Council sat on their asses doing nothing, even with what Ashley saw at Horizon.  Where does stopping the Collectors from getting the entire colony suddenly shift to working for the Collectors.  The fact is, based on the events of ME 2, barring Arrival DLC, which she doesn't have security clearance for most likely, where does she get the feeling that she needs to question Shepard?  Exactly what role did the Alliance or Council play in stopping the threat?  Oh, that's right, she went to investigate Cerberus for working with the Collectors?  The events on Horizon were, of course, staged for her benefit?

Isn't it funny that she will automatically support Udina, who, for political expedience, will disregard the events around Sovereign, despite the fact that Ash could have very well been standing there listening to Vigil?  In one of my playthroughs, this is exactly what happened.  She will automatically trust him over Shepard, despite knowing that Udina did nothing to attempt to drive the council towards being ready for what's coming, and will, more to the point, suspect that, despite what she knows to be true historically, believe that Cerberus is working for the Collectors/Reapers.

There is a point where one's actions should speak louder than another's suspicions, and Ash and Kaidan both go to the extreme, well past that point.  Since I don't play ME 2 as a Cerberus Boot Licker, I turn over the intel from one of the missions to the Alliance.  She's got clearance enough to know that.  She is standing right there when you talk to both Anderson and Hackett, and yet questions their orders.  So does she think that Shepard's indoctrinated them?  Is this where she's getting her "mistrust" of Shepard?  Or, is she just being pigheaded, and resentful that she didn't get command of the Normandy?  Because frankly, yes, she does come across as just that petty all through Mars, and the only reason it doesn't carry on early is because she's in the hospital, incapable of pursuing her "suspicions".

#125
Han Shot First

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The catsuit was a little OOC, but I've got no problems with the hairsyte. Women in the military only wear their hair up in a bun while on duty. And some of them can be quite sexy when out of uniform. Posted Image

I think the complains prior to ME3 about Ashley's hair not being in a bun were a case of much ado about nothing.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .