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[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Nor should it change the fact that Ashley hates politicians, and will tell you so in Ambassador Udina's office in ME 1.  So what changed?  Is he less of a politician in 2 or 3?  In the majority of my playthroughs, he certainly is in 2, since he works for Anderson.  Of course, since the Reapers are busy ravaging Earth, he does seem to come off as more concerned about the threat, imagine that...

What's changed is she's a Spectre now and it's her duty to protect the Council, whatever her personal feeling are. 

That said, once she's talked down, she has no compunctions about shooting Udina when he pulls a gun to shoot the asari Councilor (if you don't take the interrupt and do it yourself)

So the bribe worked, is what you're saying, since Shepard is also a Spectre.

Bribe?  It's a Spectre's job to protect the Council.  Even from other Spectres ::coughSarencough::  hardly a bribe.  Ash takes her job seriously.

And like I said, Ash can shoot Udina.  I let her, infact.  Seemed like the right thing to do

[Fawx9]

robertthebard wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
In just what context did Shepard need to be questioned, especially after James makes it clear that there was no way Shepard had any contact with Cerberus after he turns himself in.  This is an important detail, there was no pitched battle in which Shepard was captured, he turned himself in, after delaying yet another Reaper plot, all while the Alliance/Council sat on their asses doing nothing, even with what Ashley saw at Horizon.  Where does stopping the Collectors from getting the entire colony suddenly shift to working for the Collectors.  The fact is, based on the events of ME 2, barring Arrival DLC, which she doesn't have security clearance for most likely, where does she get the feeling that she needs to question Shepard?  Exactly what role did the Alliance or Council play in stopping the threat?  Oh, that's right, she went to investigate Cerberus for working with the Collectors?  The events on Horizon were, of course, staged for her benefit?

 

And Shepard having no contact with Cerberus changes the fact s/he worked for them? Shepard might not be the same person s/he used to be. Shepard could still have a terrorist heart. Shepard can have a control chip. And tell me, who are you going to believe? The people you worked for several years, know they are helping humanity in a good way, or one person who was persumed dead, came back after two years from nowhere, and went off to work for terrorists, which the military you work for it fighting them several years? Don't tell me you are going to believe such a person, no matter who that person was before to you. Believing Shepard, after s/he doesn't even give any evidences to Ashley that the collectors are working with the reapers, is crazy.

 
Isn't it funny that she will automatically support Udina, who, for political expedience, will disregard the events around Sovereign, despite the fact that Ash could have very well been standing there listening to Vigil?  In one of my playthroughs, this is exactly what happened.  She will automatically trust him over Shepard, despite knowing that Udina did nothing to attempt to drive the council towards being ready for what's coming, and will, more to the point, suspect that, despite what she knows to be true historically, believe that Cerberus is working for the Collectors/Reapers.

 

Udina is a respectable counciler that even if was an A-hole, still did his job. Shepard went rouge. And the fact you treat Ashley like sh** doesn't make your point any better (I assume the fact she atomatically trusts Udina is because you treated her like that). Did Shepard do anything in the last three years to make amends, to make Ashley trust him/her again? Killing some Cerberus operatives doesn't say much, from reasons I said above.

BTW, after what we saw on Mars, didn't you at least have a bit of sespect Ceberus was starting to work with the reapers? Or doing something to their soldiers with using reaper technology (which they did)? Ashley's suspicion turned correct. So you can't say she was being irrational about it.

 
There is a point where one's actions should speak louder than another's suspicions, and Ash and Kaidan both go to the extreme, well past that point.  Since I don't play ME 2 as a Cerberus Boot Licker, I turn over the intel from one of the missions to the Alliance.  She's got clearance enough to know that.  She is standing right there when you talk to both Anderson and Hackett, and yet questions their orders.  So does she think that Shepard's indoctrinated them?  Is this where she's getting her "mistrust" of Shepard?  Or, is she just being pigheaded, and resentful that she didn't get command of the Normandy?  Because frankly, yes, she does come across as just that petty all through Mars, and the only reason it doesn't carry on early is because she's in the hospital, incapable of pursuing her "suspicions".

How do you know she got clearance? How do you know Ashley even looked at anything more than the base information about what Shepard did during that time? And how exactly do you connect commandership of the Normandy to mistrust in Shepard? A person can be sincere about his mistrust without anything behind it. In fact, I didn't see anything about Kaidan or Ashley on Mars more than concern for Shepard and doubt about who's Shepard loyalty is to.

So I guess this all comes down to what you told her on Horizon, instead of considering everything that happened in ME 1?  So from my viewpoint, she should be clear that my intentions were to stop the Collectors, even if it meant that I had, through no choice of my own, to work with Cerberus, not for them.  This is not semantics, I used the resources I had available to accomplish the mission.  If I could have walked away from Cerberus at any point in the game prior to the SM, I would have.  I made this as clear as the dialog system allowed on Horizon, but she chose to accuse me of working for the Collectors/Reapers.  I get it now, it makes perfect sense.  The fact that I actually saved some colonists was a show, put on for her benefit, it had nothing to do with actually wanting to save the colonists...

I'm not a member of the "We banged Ashley, and she can do no wrong" fan club.  Although I actually did bang Ashley twice, once in 1 and once in 3.  It was a forgettable experience.

Horizon wasn't exactly the greatest piece of writing. The VS was never going to join you so they needed a way to do that. Instead of saying something like: 'I'm to busy looking after this outpost' , after you explain the situation, it a flat out rejection everytime. Both ways to handle it should have been viable not just simply the VS always taking their ball and gong home.

Even with the letter afterwards it still seemed like a temper tantrum for the sake of drama.


Then again now that I think about that made upreasoning to not join you is equally as terrible, so maybe thats why its a rejection all the time. They couldn't think of a reasonable way to say no and have it be believable.

[Blacklash93]

Olive Oomph wrote...

Ashley was a fantastic character in ME1, unfortunately only in ME1. I wasn't bothered by her reaction in ME2, though is was a badly written scene. It was nothing more than a cameo. The simplistic reduction of her character to a few basic traits however, that happened in ME3, is unforgivable

It can happen when you transfer writers like that. To be more specific the next person may not be able to grasp the entire complexity of a character and will choose to play it safe by just dealing with their most basic established traits and being all-around unambitious with the character. Maybe because they just didn't pay attention to the previous appearances enough. It's also possible the writer just isn't that good writing a character or a mix of these things.

The fact that the VS didn't get the normal screen time of the other squadmates didn't help with them spending almost half the game in a hospital. The person who originally wrote Ashley doesn't work for Bioware anymore and her new primary writer just joined for ME3, I believe. Kaidan had it a little better, but he was still pretty unremarkable as well.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[iamweaver]

In one real way is the VS a tool - that's that the option to romance them is available. They are either a junior officer or an enlisted under your command. I don't know about Kaiden, but Ashley even reminds you of this at some point. Most other comments ignore that they are in the military, which gets to choose who they work for and when they work, or ignores all of the things that actually exist in the military, like security and need-to-know.

So what happens is that when a character in a fantasy story follows logic paths that are drawn from real life, it jars the suspension of disbelief, and looks "wrong" - even when it's actually right.

So - yes, in a way, the VS is a tool for not going AWOL from their military post in ME2 and following you, or that the VS doesn't do what any actual person (whether an old friend, or a member of the ruling body of a galactic council) would do when confronted with someone who had been working for a terrorist organization, and have a period where some kind of independent verification of their honesty is needed before you can regain their trust.

[Marauder Shields N7]

Han Shot First wrote...

I thought she was kind of hot in ME3.

Looked better in ME2

Modifié par Marauder Shields N7, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:01 .

[sth128]

sth128 wrote...

I don't think so. Shepard has been sitting in Vancouver for six months. Ash knew the whole time where Shepard was. Ash read all the mission reports on Shepard's activity. Ash knew why Shepard did the things he did. Ash probably knew Shepard had Hackett's approval to blow up the Alpha Relay.

Ash CERTAINLY knew who Shepard romanced (if he did). Ash seems pretty well-informed on who Shepard is and what he is fighting for. Even if you visited Ash in Heurta, she still finds ways to accuse you of being unfaithful or untrustworthy.

Ash is letting her personal issues to cloud her judgement.

Hey Ash, it's your OWN DAMN FAULT for not following Shepard the second time around. If you had, Shepard would have gone on a personal quest to resolve all your lingering parental, familial, emotional, and other puberty-related issues like he did for EVERYONE ELSE.

It's Ash's own fault for not jumping on the shrink session train.

Fawx9 wrote...

Your irrantionality is making your arguements a mess.

Not quite. It is you who did not read my post thoroughly. I've included my earlier post for reference.

In ME2 Shepard was no where close to Vancouver. The only people that knew about him were Liara, Cerberus and anyone he came into contact with post lazarus.

When did I say Shepard was in Vancouver during ME2? Between "The Arrival" and the start of ME3, Shepard has been sitting in Vancouber for six months. During this time, he was tried and put under house arrest. He made detail reports on his activities during the events of ME2. James knew what Shepard was up to, why didn't Ash? I don't know where you got "Ash knew where Shepard was during ME2", certainly not from my post.

And who knew what Shepard was up to during ME2? Well, Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Liara, Anderson, the entire Council, the Asari, and Hackett.

The VS was designed(as in the writing gods demanded it) to say no, even if the reasoning is suspect, which is why I wanted to skip over it.

So any point supporting my view on Ash is invalid because "writing gods demanded it" and should be skipped over, while any points supporting your view is perfectly valid? So basically I'm wrong because you say so, and you're right because also you say so?

Awesome argument right there.

As for the rest, she only learned those things when he was picked up afer the collector mess. We don't know what she was up to, maybe she had a mission of her own that she couldn't get up and take a 3 week vacation on.

Shepard wasn't "picked up". He surrendered himself and SR2 to the Alliance on his own accord after he destroyed the Collectors. Even before the Alpha Relay incident he contacted Hackett (though I think Hackett called Shepard) to brief him on the situation and to say "I will take responsibility for this but there is no other option".

As for the 3 week vacation, it's another one of your famous "only my point is valid" example.

Ash not finding a day in SIX MONTHS to visit Shepard? Perfectly reasonable.

Shepard not finding 3 (separate) days in a few weeks to visit Ash while trying to unite the galaxy, curing the genophage, negotiating peace between Turian and Krogan, stopping a war between Quarians and Geth, investigating Cerberus activities, carrying out random fetch quests for the Volus, Elcor, Asari, AND finding ways to defeat the Reaper?

OMG HOW DARE SHEPARD WE CLEARLY CAN'T FORGIVE OR TRUST HIM.

It doesn't really matter, the first thing I saw was someone upset and flustered over the whole ordeal wanting to set things straight.

That's what you chose to see. The first thing I saw was Ash getting promoted for doing nothing on Horizon, made up some excuse for not visiting him in six months, putting her blind trust in a governing body so inept that the Reapers literally land while they ask "hurr durr wut we do Shepurrrd"?

Then the second thing I saw was Ash saying "Shepard come clean with me, did you bring all those Cerberus troops to Mars so you can shoot them"?

The third thing I saw was Ash saying "Shepard because you once worked with Cerberus, I think you are the same as these husk troops. Just because you're helping us now doesn't mean you are secretly an evil TIM pawn working some super elaborate plan because you are also secretly a husk".

The forth thing I saw was Ash saying "Shepard even though I abandoned you on Horizon after you saved my behind and never talked to you since, how dare you find comfort in another woman"?

The fifth thing I saw was Ash pointing a gun at me saying "No Shepard Udina is clearly more trustworthy than you".

(Then Garrus shot her cause even he got tired of the galaxy's biggest tool)

Modifié par sth128, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:05 .

[Ageless Face]

robertthebard wrote...

So I guess this all comes down to what you told her on Horizon, instead of considering everything that happened in ME 1?  So from my viewpoint, she should be clear that my intentions were to stop the Collectors, even if it meant that I had, through no choice of my own, to work with Cerberus, not for them.  This is not semantics, I used the resources I had available to accomplish the mission.  If I could have walked away from Cerberus at any point in the game prior to the SM, I would have.  I made this as clear as the dialog system allowed on Horizon, but she chose to accuse me of working for the Collectors/Reapers.  I get it now, it makes perfect sense.  The fact that I actually saved some colonists was a show, put on for her benefit, it had nothing to do with actually wanting to save the colonists...

I'm not a member of the "We banged Ashley, and she can do no wrong" fan club.  Although I actually did bang Ashley twice, once in 1 and once in 3.  It was a forgettable experience.

And how does Ashley knows you're not working FOR Cerberus? Because Shepard said so? "They could be using the threat of the reapers to manipulate you". Hell, Miranda was very close to put a control chip into Shepard's head. Ashley, and Kaidan, don't know who is Shepard anymore. They didn't know Shepard will be the kind of person that will turn to work with terrorists. Even renegade Shepard. Kaidan and Ashley didn't hear any news about the reapers for two years. Then miraculasly, the person who was dead for two years suddenly tells them they are back. Ashley and Kaidan don't know the reapers are back. Shepard didn't give them any proof that they are.

And the fact you don't want to work with cerberus doesn't change the fact that you are. Even in the conversation with them on Horizon, you can't tell Kaidan and Ashley they know what Cerberus did is wrong, but they have to do it anyway. You can only defend them, or tell them Cerberus is working for you.

And Ashley and Kaidan never accused you of working with the reapers or the collectors. They suspected Cerberus did that, and you were being manipulated to work for them, by telling you about the colonists. After all, the Alliance thought Cerberus was behind the attack of the human colonies. Surely Kaidan and Ashley suspected it too.

I'm not trying to make you Ashley's fan. I'm pretty sure I'll never have enough charisma for that . All I want to do is to try to show Ashley's view point on Shepard. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Zjarcal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I got to kill her in ME3, that makes up for any annoying things she did in the previous games.

I'm still bleh on not being able to tell the VS to GTFO without sounding like Shep likes them.

Would a "I don't trust you, I don't like you and I don't want you anywhere near my ship GTFO kthxbye" been so hard to implement? Nooooo Shep has to be all nice. Gag me with a spoon. can't even shoot them in the face without being all DX poor VS who was too stupid to put the damn gun down when they were vastly outnumbered! Blargh.

Lol, actually I agree, I did enjoy the things I got to say in Mars, but I wanted more nasty dialogue choices. Lemme vent my hatred towards that damn woman game!

I felt Mars was a bit too much forgivey too. But it was much much better than the coup. My Shep kissing the VS's ass bothers me.

And yes vent that hatred. Can't even laugh at them when you shoot their stupid asses.

"I hope the Reapers...send you to hell." 

"Welp you say hi for me kay? Since you'll be there first."

[iamweaver]

OK - hold on, sth128. Shepherd has been under house arrest for 6 months.

House arrest.

That's right, you are being held on suspicion of a whole lot of crimes, from treason on down. And it's only in your head that you know that the VS could visit Shepherd during house arrest. And I guess you forgot that the VS has been off-world for a while on duty assignment. Absolutely no guarantee that leave time would be granted during that period - even if the VS was permitted to visit (which - again - we don't know). So using your logic, the VS should ignore that her chain of command has Shep arrested, and simply assume that they are big old meanies?

Notice that enormous goon that's there in the Vancouver scene? That James guy? He's your keeper. He knows about you, because he's been guarding you

Also - in case *you* didn't notice, TIM was himself indoctrinated, and for all of ME2, was in direct conflict with the reapers. Just as you might be playing some deeper game. But since all that it takes is a couple of 30-second conversations to convince the VS, I guess it wasn't actually that difficult, was it?

[Bolt-Action]

Marauder Shieldz wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Bolt-Action wrote...

Marauder Shieldz wrote...

 And people wonder why i pick Tali. 

Uhhhhh....because its Tali

My Sheps all fall for Tali (understandable) 

ah....... tali....      

I know, right

But the exchange at TIM's base went something like;
Shep-...I don't know if I'm a robot who thinks he's Shepard or a high tech VI...I don't know... (something like that)
Tali- Shepard you are real and you are mine!

[Fawx9]

sth128 wrote...

--snip--

1) Horizon is complete railroading. Nothing you do with the VS in ME1 was going to get them to join your squad. Could the scene be written better to give a real reason why they wont come other than being "RAWR CERBERUS RAWR ANGRY"? Yes but it didn't happen. What we are left with is a character that was railraoded into being angry/paranoid because the writers demanded it. Not because of our actions past or present. Does the act still hold weight to the overall character of the VS? Yes. Do I feel it is what they should solley be judged upon? No because it doesnt take into account past interactions in a meaningful way.

2) No one else is able to see Shepard, why would the VS be able to? Isolation is completely different from being in the hostipal on the citidal, a place which you frequent between missions anyways.

4) TIM thought he was fighting the Repaers, they were controlling them. Why couln't the same thing be happening to Shepard. She was right about people taking tech(I do not mean to start a side war with this statement however its strongly hinted someone leaked the invisibility tech), she was right about the council abandoning earth for their own needs(dog analogy) why couldn't she have been right about this?

3) Again I see no ingame reason why any character would distrust Udina. I see plenty on why he would be considered a dick however. The entire Alliance trusts him to represent humanity, why the hell should the VS not have some level of trust and because of that shock at the accusations.

[The Twilight God]

Fawx9 wrote...


Horizon wasn't exactly the greatest piece of writing. The VS was never going to join you so they needed a way to do that. Instead of saying something like: 'I'm to busy looking after this outpost' , after you explain the situation, it a flat out rejection everytime. Both ways to handle it should have been viable not just simply the VS always taking their ball and gong home.

Even with the letter afterwards it still seemed like a temper tantrum for the sake of drama.


Then again now that I think about that made upreasoning to not join you is equally as terrible, so maybe thats why its a rejection all the time. They couldn't think of a reasonable way to say no and have it be believable.

The reason the VS is hostile on Horizon is because - Hey, look!! Miranda has big ****** and look at dat ass!!! Oh, there's Tali. Check out dem hips!!! Ain't that suit snug!?!? You like crazy chicks wit kissable lips?!!!? Jack can have biotic sex on the celing!!! Forget Ashley!!! She punked you out. Forget Liara!!! She didn;t even acknowledge your little fling!! Try out our new menu!!!

Then they remembered that Liara is the cannon romance so LotSB was released. WOW!!! Laiara's boobs are huge now. You've had your fun with the new menu. Now go back to her!!!! NOW!!!!

Modifié par The Twilight God, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:32 .

[The Twilight God]

Marauder Shields N7 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I thought she was kind of hot in ME3.

Looked better in ME2

That's an unfair ME3 pic.

Now ME2 Kelly difference from  ME3 Kelly...

[sth128]

iamweaver wrote...

That's right, you are being held on suspicion of a whole lot of crimes, from treason on down. And it's only in your head that you know that the VS could visit Shepherd during house arrest.

Shepard was actually being used as a martyr to take the blame for the Alpha Relay incident. Note that he wasn't in jail, and the tribunal didn't actually find him guilty of anything (Shepard's not in prison, he's in his own quarters with free showers and hot meals).

The official stance of the Council on the Reapers is "we've dismissed that claim". The Alliance couldn't just let Shepard return to active duty after he blew up the Alpha Relay (which killed a bunch of Batarians).

And yes, we know Ash can visit Shepard any time she wanted, and Ash definitely knew where Shepard was being held. How do we know this? Because at the beginning of the game, Ash is reporting to both Anderson and the committee. Ash then apologized to Shepard for not keeping him "in the loop". This means Ash knew the whole time Shepard's whereabouts during the six months and intentionally avoided Shepard. Notice Ash didn't say "Shepard! I didn't know you were held here" or "Shepard! I tried to contact you but I couldn't". Ash said "sorry I kept you out of the loop (cause I secretly think you're a husk)".

And I guess you forgot that the VS has been off-world for a while on duty assignment. Absolutely no guarantee that leave time would be granted during that period

Unlike Shepard, who was on the Citadel the entire game so it behooves him to visit Ash instead of lounging in Purgatory? As if being "off-world" means anything in the ME universe.

What, Ash couldn't send another one of her famous e-mails? No vid-chat? Considering that Ash was present during Horizon, she should at least be at the tribunal as a witness or something.

"No guarantee leave during that period"... Right so Ash only returned to Earth to report to the committee once during the six month, on the day of the Reaper attack. Maybe Shepard should accuse Ash of leading the Reapers to Earth? I mean, what are the chances that the day Reapers arrive is the same day Ash arrives after a six-month long mission without leave?

even if the VS was permitted to visit (which - again - we don't know). So using your logic, the VS should ignore that her chain of command has Shep arrested, and simply assume that they are big old meanies?

How many security checks did you see Shepard pass through in the opening sequence? Were the hallways completely empty as if Shepard was being held in some restricted area? What rank is James Vega? Oh right, a PRIVATE. I guess Lieutenant Commanders aren't allowed the same privilege as a private. Seriously, that place is so accessible, James WASN'T WEARING A UNIFORM. James wore a T-shirt when he talked to Shepard at the beginning.

And you're saying there's such restrictive chain-of-command security where Shepard's being held, that a Lieutenant Commander with exemplary records, who is working for the committee at the same place as Shepard, cannot, for the life of her, get permission to talk to Shepard (or even know he's there)?

Also - in case *you* didn't notice, TIM was himself indoctrinated, and for all of ME2, was in direct conflict with the reapers.

So in Ash's mind, Shepard = TIM? And no matter what his actions are / were, once a Cerberus, always a Cerberus?

You know, I recall a story Ash told Shepard once. Something about her grandfather being a traitor. Once a traitor...

Shepard extended Ash the courtesy of trust, only logical for Ash to do the opposite and accuse Shep at every possible turn.

[edit]
BTW, I wonder when did Ash find time during her super top secret mission with no leave to get a cosmetic make-over. I guess it came with the promotion huh?

Modifié par sth128, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:41 .

[frostajulie]

With Ashley you have to remember she spent all her life trying to put down the mistrust humanity had toward her family. She finally earns her place in the Alliance and she sees herslef in love with a man who could possibly tear it all back down. She probably does not trust herself and is worries about how maybe deep down she is the traitor everyone always thought she was bad DNA or something and her love for ZZShepard was a way to sabotage herself and her families name. So she reacts with Anger because it is the easiest and short term most satisfying reaction to such self doubt and fear. Anger also has a way of feeling like your doing something about a problem instead of reacting to one. Shepard becomes her target Add to that she thinks he's been alive for 2 years and just never bothered to tell her so he could work for a terrorist organization that killed an Alliance admiral and you get the beautifully flawed Ashley. If I were a Male shep and Not already in love with Jack I would always romance Ashley.

[frostajulie]

Bolt-Action wrote...

Marauder Shieldz wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Bolt-Action wrote...

Marauder Shieldz wrote...

 And people wonder why i pick Tali. 

Uhhhhh....because its Tali

My Sheps all fall for Tali (understandable) 

ah....... tali....      

I know, right

But the exchange at TIM's base went something like;
Shep-...I don't know if I'm a robot who thinks he's Shepard or a high tech VI...I don't know... (something like that)
Tali- Shepard you are real and you are mine!

whoah does she really say that? If so that just makes me feel all warm and squishy and I never even play male shep.<3

[sth128]

Fawx9 wrote...

Do I feel it is what they should solley be judged upon? No because it doesnt take into account past interactions in a meaningful way.

Again, you are laying the fault on the writers and dismissing the character's actions. You cannot do this. If one can point to something and say "nope the character is not at fault, it's the writers", then NOTHING can be criticized and the characters are NEVER at fault. Because "the writer gods demanded it".

No. Whatever you think of the writing is irrelevant. Whatever the character(s) said must be criticized as their own actions. You cannot ignore or skip over them simply because "there wasn't an option to sweep Ash off her feet and convince her that Shepard is still hung like a Krogan".

No one else is able to see Shepard, why would the VS be able to?

Wut? What isolation? Shepard had an iPad at the beginning. He's on first name basis with James. James didn't even wear a uniform. Shepard wasn't allowed to leave the Alliance headquarters, that's it. There was no isolation. Ash is reporting directly to the committee and Anderson. The defense committee is unofficially using Shepard as a consultant. That's the whole point of the opening sequence! Shepard is asked by the committee to brief them on what to do now that the Reapers took out a bunch of colonies and are on their way to Earth.

TIM thought he was fighting the Repaers, they were controlling them. Why couln't the same thing be happening to Shepard. She was right about people taking tech(I do not mean to start a side war with this statement however its strongly hinted someone leaked the invisibility tech), she was right about the council abandoning earth for their own needs(dog analogy) why couldn't she have been right about this?

Because Shepard doesn't have Reaper tech implanted all over? Because it's Shepard? Ash was WRONG about the Council (did you not see the end battle with the intergalactic fleet)? Not sure what invisible tech you're talking about, if it's from the novels I didn't read them.

Why couldn't Ash have been right about shooting Shepard in the face? Because Udina. You know, the same guy who grounded Normandy? The same guy who did nothing about the Reapers? The same guy who sat around during the entire Collector crisis? Seriously what the hell did Udina do during that whole time? Getting bribed by TIM?

Again I see no ingame reason why any character would distrust Udina.

If you won't see then nothing I can say will convince you. You are like the Turian Councilor, "ah yes Reapers".

Even the Salarian Councilor didn't trust Udina. Ash for some reason was willing to follow Udina to her death.

[iamweaver]

@sth128 (the quotes vanished somehow):
You're correct that the VS didn't keep you "in the loop" about where they were or how they were doing - though this could mean "during the time period of ME2, post-horizon", or it could mean "I could get you a message while you were arrested, but I didn't". We don't know which.

But I will repeat: Shep is under house arrest. The reasons for him/her being under house arrest are irrelevant. There are some Indonesians that were held under "house arrest" for years under some pretty shady pretenses - but that doesn't change the fact. And we have no way to know whether, as in the ex-PM in Indonesia, you were kept completely incommunicado during house arrest, or it was a freer version. We don't know.

EDIT: You bring up things like "James likes him!  It's an informal environment!  Shep can read!"  None of this proves that he could receive or send communicatoin.

As for the coincidence of their meeting - both of them were there to address the Reaper threat that appeared to have materialized. This means that the VS was summoned by the brass (actually, I assume that it was instigated by Anderson, from the dialogue). This does not mean that the VS was free to take leave and go to Earth at any time prior to this (again - this assumes that the VS couldn't communicate with Shep electronically - we don't know either way).

As for James, he's not a Private. He's a LT. And he was in the outfit that Bioware put him in - it doesn't change the dialogue, which clearly suggests that James was SHep's keeper. Shep being under house arrest means that you're right - there aren't a lot of guards, and he's not in a cell.

As for the complaint about a LCDR not being able to communicate with a CDR - it's pretty clear that you've never been in the military. You don't get to go to the folks holding Shep and saying, "Hey! I'm in the same uniform as you, Admiral, just let me talk to my friend that you've arrested, pretty please!".

Modifié par iamweaver, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[Ryzaki]

@iamweaver: So you've been in the alliance military? Do tell.

Plz let's not use "but in the real military!" excuses please. The game was written by civilians and it's fictional. It has parallels to the real military sure but it's nowhere near the exact same thing.

Because I don't know about you but in game I saw a LTCR talking to and insulting no less people of far higher ranks than him...constantly with little to no consequence. (hi there renedouche).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[iamweaver]

[quote]sth128 wrote...

[quote]Fawx9 wrote...

[quote]TIM thought he was fighting the Repaers, they were controlling them. Why couln't the same thing be happening to Shepard. She was right about people taking tech(I do not mean to start a side war with this statement however its strongly hinted someone leaked the invisibility tech), she was right about the council abandoning earth for their own needs(dog analogy) why couldn't she have been right about this?[/quote]Because Shepard doesn't have Reaper tech implanted all over? Because it's Shepard? Ash was WRONG about the Council (did you not see the end battle with the intergalactic fleet)? Not sure what invisible tech you're talking about, if it's from the novels I didn't read them.
[/quote]
How does Ashley know this?  Is it because Shep doesn't have a "Reaper Inside" sticker on him? 

[quote]
Why couldn't Ash have been right about shooting Shepard in the face? Because Udina. You know, the same guy who grounded Normandy? The same guy who did nothing about the Reapers? The same guy who sat around during the entire Collector crisis? Seriously what the hell did Udina do during that whole time? Getting bribed by TIM?

[quote]Again I see no ingame reason why any character would distrust Udina.[/quote]If you won't see then nothing I can say will convince you. You are like the Turian Councilor, "ah yes Reapers".

Even the Salarian Councilor didn't trust Udina. Ash for some reason was willing to follow Udina to her death.[/quote]
He SHOULD have grounded Normandy - the Council grounded Shep. I agree that Udina is an a$%, and that the council was wrong, and that in a video game, it all worked out.  But if we're being rational about this, Shepherd was guilty of theft of an Alliance vessal and disobeying a direct order.  All that your complaint proves is that Udina wasn't right once (the "do nothing abotu the Reapers" is the same mistake).

Did Udina sit around and do nothing during ME2?  I know that Anderson, as a member of the council, said that he would be supporting Shep at the Citadel.  Did Udina refuse to do this if you chose him to be on the council at the end of ME1?

There are lots of reasons to distrust Udina.  And in fact, if you even give the VS one hint, anywhere along the line, that you are not a Cerberus minion after Mars (so that they know it was you, and not the other members of the Normandy, that brought you back), they do trust you. This is *despite* the fact that you suddenly show up on an elevator that the VS *knows* is being taken by Cerberus operatives out to kill/kidnap the entire council (NOT just Udina).  Talk about suspicious coincidences...

And even if you *didn't* visit them, you can *still* convince the VS to back down, there on the landing platform.

But you chose not to.

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

@iamweaver: So you've been in the alliance military? Do tell.

Plz let's not use "but in the real military!" excuses please. The game was written by civilians and it's fictional. It has parallels to the real military sure but it's nowhere near the exact same thing.

Because I don't know about you but in game I saw a LTCR talking to and insulting no less people of far higher ranks than him...constantly with little to no consequence. (hi there renedouche).

We can only base the actions of a character on something that we recognise.  And there are no indications that, despite all of the licenses to military discipline taken by Bioware, that the general mindset of the military has changed significantly.  After all, we do know that the "no fraternization" rule still exists - though it's completely ignored in game. And we do know that juniors salute superiors, and generally observe the chain of command.

But I think you're missing the point here.  Many of the VS's actions are explainable if you think of them as being in the military.  You can choose not to, of course - after all, that the military actually has discipline is simply a guess.  Otherwise, why bother claiming that it's a military, if it's not?

[sth128]

iamweaver wrote...

@sth128 (the quotes vanished somehow):

Meh I hate long-winded quotes anyway.

The reasons for him/her being under house arrest are irrelevant. [...]

And Ash just assumed Shepard was guilty of treason w/o a doubt? Some loyal squad member / romance interest she is...

As for James, he's not a Private. He's a LT.

My mistake. I think Shepard calls him a private at some point.

there aren't a lot of guards, and he's not in a cell.

Upon further examination, it seems Shepard wasn't actually convicted of anything or even discharged... Apparently he's just "grounded" and relieved of command.

You don't get to go to the folks holding Shep and saying, "Hey! I'm in the same uniform as you, Admiral, just let me talk to my friend that you've arrested, pretty please!".

LOL. I don't think Anderson was wearing the same uniform as Ash (maybe when no one is looking). But is it that big a stretch for Ash to ask Anderson about Shepard or request a face-to-face under monitor?

Even prisoners in jail get one phone call and conjugate visits.

[iamweaver]

sth128 wrote...
And Ash just assumed Shepard was guilty of treason w/o a doubt? Some loyal squad member / romance interest she is...

You so lie!  There were no loyalty missions in ME1!   And whatever else you say about the VS (especially Ashley), they are naturally suspicious. Not as bad as Jack, perhaps...

Upon further examination, it seems Shepard wasn't actually convicted of anything or even discharged... Apparently he's just "grounded" and relieved of command.

True.  He's under house arrest - he's not been formally charged yet.  Anderson is stalling the charges, I think.

Even prisoners in jail get one phone call and conjugate visits.

True!  But that process today is initiated from the prisoner's side - which if still true, would make it your fault that the VS couldn't reach you .

Modifié par iamweaver, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[sth128]

@ iamweaver:

I'm assuming these are your words since you messed up the quotation tags.

iamweaver wrote...

But if we're being rational about this, Shepherd was guilty of theft of an Alliance vessal and disobeying a direct order. 

"Wrongly". Had Shepard not acted, the Alliance would have fallen alongside every other race in the galaxy. Whatever order he disobeyed would have been dismissed.

All that your complaint proves is that Udina wasn't right once (the "do nothing abotu the Reapers" is the same mistake).

Fool me twice... Udina persisted and supported the "Shepard is wrong" mentality in every instance except the last, when Reapers actually landed on Earth. It's not about "wasn't right once". Udina was NEVER right. Name one instance where he proved Shepard wrong and averted a disaster.

Did Udina refuse to do this if you chose him to be on the council at the end of ME1?

Actually if you chose Udina, you have to go behind his back to gain Council support. Udina basically wants to strip Shepard of his Spectre status because to do otherwise would be a "political s--- storm". Basically, Udina refused to believe Shepard's claim of the Collector threat and insisted that the Reapers are an "urban legend".

And even if you *didn't* visit them, you can *still* convince the VS to back down, there on the landing platform.

But you chose not to.

Who said I chose not to? My Shepard's paragon rating is off the roof. The VS always lowered their guns for me. (and their clothes, not Kaiden tho, my man-Shep didn't want to try Alenko-beef)

I'm just playing the devil's advocate for lulz. Also because I think Ash is a mistrustful tool. I only visited her in the hospital because my Shep romanced her. Ash's ass is her only redeeming quality.

Not so much the racist (spiciest really) thing though. As I see it Ash has strong feelings on the subject but not to the point of prejudice.

Modifié par sth128, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:05 .

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...
We can only base the actions of a character on something that we recognise.  And there are no indications that, despite all of the licenses to military discipline taken by Bioware, that the general mindset of the military has changed significantly.  After all, we do know that the "no fraternization" rule still exists - though it's completely ignored in game. And we do know that juniors salute superiors, and generally observe the chain of command.

But I think you're missing the point here.  Many of the VS's actions are explainable if you think of them as being in the military.  You can choose not to, of course - after all, that the military actually has discipline is simply a guess.  Otherwise, why bother claiming that it's a military, if it's not?

That and what's actually given in game and what's actually given in name is a Shep can be constantly rude and questioning his superiors with no reprucussions. Why would that be automatically different for Ashley? Hell SHE questions Shep in ME1! It clearly isn't something uncommon. (her questioning her superiors is a running theme apparently).

Discpline =/= inability to question your superiors.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:01 .