16 réponses à ce sujet

[cds13]

 Hi everybody,

                          do you ever use this spell? I mean I find no use in it since the only way I can find it useful is when I want to run away from enemies.
Surely when you cast it on you enemies and you got a "big" party (henchie, summoed creature and familiar) they will stop attacking since the enemy is no more in sight. Should I use this magic as the octopus uses its ink? Or do you use it in some other way?

Thank you all

[Shadooow]

its rarely used spell but it might be useful, you just need to cast ultravision or true seeing spell beforehand to be able to see in the darkness

[Dante2377]

On a character with sneaks and blind-fight, it can be effective way to generate sneak/death attack (eg. from Assassin power).

[Mystery X]

Though I haven't mastered this particular use of Darkness, I have seen it suggested as a means of crowd control. If you have a powerful group of enemies and can't draw them off one at a time, you can use Darkness on them and pick them off one at a time.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

I've heard that due to a bug the darkness spell can be used to detect stealthers in the immediate vicinity. How that would work, or whether it's true I don't know. I've never tested it. Does anyone here know anything about that?

[cds13]

Thank you all, so I need some pre-casting in order to fight in the darkness, eventually I can deal sneaks like I were always stealthy and I can manage the "divide et impera". Thank you again.

To GW: seemed so to me when I was playing a bridge module (The Nether Scrolls) which has
SPOILER an insane amount of shadows which brought darkness all the time but were visible while next to me.

[Baaleos]

Darkness, can be useful for roleplay, and some custom script systems.

I have a teleport power in my server, that when used on yourself, will teleport you to the nearest Darkness Spell, or the first one it finds in the gameworld.

Eg - Treating Darkness as a doorway/portal.

[cds13]

Really? Why teleporting next to a darkness spell? Is it t avoid the falling in an area full of foes?

[Luminus]

A bit late here. Darkness is absolutely awesome in NwN1 if you know how to use it.

Some years ago I made a Monk/Wizard/Assassin for the A Hunt Through the Dark modules.
I dualled kamas and I used all my spell slots for Darkness and Ultravision. Coupled with the Assassin's Darkness "spell" I had more than enough castings.

My main tactic was to cast Ultravision, then go in the middle of a group and hit someone with my Death Attack. Then as everyone was swarming on me, I casted Darkness on my self and proceeded to Sneak/Death Attack everyone to death in a few seconds.

[MagicalMaster]

If by "awesome" you mean "broken" because the AI can't handle it at all, sure.

[Luminus]

MagicalMaster wrote...

If by "awesome" you mean "broken" because the AI can't handle it at all, sure.

By "awesome", I mean very useful and effective.
More broken than Time Stop and Isaacs or Black Blade of Disaster?

I believe enemy spellcasters can cast Ultravision too. And Tony K's AI, improves the AI quite a lot.

If you don't want to exploit the AI, don't use it. Players on PWs can always just run out of the AoE.

The OP didn't think of it as useful and I responded by saying why it is. I don't see a problem here.

Edit: Also, isn't that how Drizzt is famed to fight? Faerie Fire (Ultravision in this case) on the enemy, then Darkness, then fight inside the globe. You can always pretend that the enemies cannot see a way out.

Modifié par Luminus, 06 septembre 2012 - 02:39 .

[MagicalMaster]

Luminus wrote...

More broken than Time Stop and Isaacs or Black Blade of Disaster?

How is Time Stop relevant?  Unless I'm missing something, *no one* can react to the default Time Stop (assuming we're not talking about counterspelling).  It's still incredibly powerful (even overpowered depending on the environment), but not broken in terms of AI.

Abusing AI to attack the invulnerable Black Blade is broken, though, yes.  It's on par with trapping a large enemy on the other side of a doorway they can't pass through and peppering them with arrows.

Luminus wrote...

I believe enemy spellcasters can cast Ultravision too. And Tony K's AI, improves the AI quite a lot.

Only if it's given to them.  Hint: in the original campaign, it isn't.  And that would only apply to the caster as well.

Luminus wrote...

Edit: Also, isn't that how Drizzt is famed to fight? Faerie Fire (Ultravision in this case) on the enemy, then Darkness, then fight inside the globe. You can always pretend that the enemies cannot see a way out.

No.  Faerie Fire and Ultravision are completely different.  Drizzt sometimes uses Darkness to cloak his movement, but then he depends upon his hearing and instincts, he can't see.  In fact, at one point a blind ranger tricked Drizzt into fighting inside Darkness temporarily, and Drizzt was at a severe disadvantage.  He got out of the Darkness quickly.

P.S. Whether they can "see" a way out is irrelevant, they should just pick a direction and get clear.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 septembre 2012 - 07:18 .

[MrZork]

I am also wondering how Isaac's and Time Stop actually break anything? Powerful, true, but they are higher level effects and it seems like they do pretty much what they say they do. Just curious.

There's some validity to both sides of this. Darkness is a spell that should form part of a very useful tactic for characters who use it well. But, it's too effective, when all is said and done. It ends up working as sort of a mass retardation spell for most of the NPCs caught in its effect. Also, probably any overlapping light spell ought to negate darkness, or at least have some chance of dispelling it, but it doesn't, at least as far as I can recall.

So darkness (used against NPCs) winds up in the realm of exploit, IMO. Maybe not as bad as silence, but still unusually powerful for a low-level effect.

Modifié par MrZork, 06 septembre 2012 - 08:18 .

[Luminus]

MagicalMaster wrote...

How is Time Stop relevant?  Unless I'm missing something, *no one* can react to the default Time Stop...

Exactly, no one can react to Time Stop. It is an instant win button combined with Maximized Isaac's Missile Storm.
No, it is not broken in terms of AI, it is broken in terms of pure cheesiness and how easy fights become.

The Darkness and Sneak Attack tactic is much more limited. Unless your build is like mine (Wizard and Rogue/Assassin), you have limited castings so you cannot abuse it to defeat everything. Or some enemies are immune to Sneak Attack.
In PWs you just walk out of the globe.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Abusing AI to attack the invulnerable Black Blade is broken, though, yes.

You don't have to abuse the AI, you just turn invisible.

MagicalMaster wrote...

No.  Faerie Fire and Ultravision are completely different.  Drizzt sometimes uses Darkness to cloak his movement, but then he depends upon his hearing and instincts, he can't see.  In fact, at one point a blind ranger tricked Drizzt into fighting inside Darkness temporarily, and Drizzt was at a severe disadvantage.  He got out of the Darkness quickly.

P.S. Whether they can "see" a way out is irrelevant, they should just pick a direction and get clear.

With Ultravision you can see in magical darkness and Faerie Fire outlines enemies in magical darkness. They are not completely different. Both enable you to see enemies in magical darkness and deny them their concealment.

I have not read the books, I am quoting the Forgotten Realms wiki. So, the only enemy that could counter the Darkness tactic was a blind Ranger? Why didn't every single other enemy or monster just walk out of the globe?

Most monsters/thugs/pirates etc, don't know how the Darkness spell works. To them, the world grows dark and are being attacked next. Of course they are going to defend themselves on the spot.
That's like saying that using Delayed Blast Fireballs to set up traps is exploiting the AI because they just walk on it every time.

MrZork...

Also, probably any overlapping light spell ought to negate darkness, or
at least have some chance of dispelling it, but it doesn't, at least as
far as I can recall.

Per PnP, low level light spells or torches cannot negate the Darkness spell. Ultravision does.

Modifié par Luminus, 06 septembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Shadooow]

There is a difference between AI exploit and imbalanced spell.

Darkness definitely falls in the first category with the black blade and running circles over AOE such as blade barrier.

No doubt the AI should react more clever to the darkness - what happens now is that enemies running into darkness AOE gets darkness effect and stop doing anything untill you attack them again. Monsters should be able to find you and attack you in the AOE - the darkness has still impact on their chance to hit you and they will be flatfooted thus easier to hit.

BTW Keep in mind that NWN OC was built before expansions came. Of course its easy with IGMS or dmg shields then.

[MagicalMaster]

Luminus wrote...

Exactly, no one can react to Time Stop. It is an instant win button combined with Maximized Isaac's Missile Storm.
No, it is not broken in terms of AI, it is broken in terms of pure cheesiness and how easy fights become.

First of all, I think it's worth pointing out that Time Stop and Empowered/Maximized IGMS are 8th and 9th level spells versus a level 2 spell.

Second, are we talking solely within the confine of the original campaign?  If so, the fights are already easy and IGMS didn't even exist when they made the fights.  In addition, you wouldn't get Time Stop until Act 4 likely.  If we're talking in general, we can certainly discuss that.

Luminus wrote...

The Darkness and Sneak Attack tactic is much more limited. Unless your build is like mine (Wizard and Rogue/Assassin), you have limited castings so you cannot abuse it to defeat everything. Or some enemies are immune to Sneak Attack.

Er, just keep resting and you have unlimited castings.

Or if you're saying that you can't rest, then the limited thing applies to TS/IGMS as well.

Luminus wrote...

You don't have to abuse the AI, you just turn invisible.

The AI abuse comes from it attacking a mob completely immune to its attacks.  If all it sees is the blade, it should either A, simply run away, or B, run around trying to bump into the invisible caster (since the Blade has pathetic AB anyway).

Luminus wrote...

With Ultravision you can see in magical darkness and Faerie Fire outlines enemies in magical darkness. They are not completely different. Both enable you to see enemies in magical darkness and deny them their concealment.

No.  Fairie Fire outlines enemies in NORMAL darkness.

"A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects."

Luminus wrote...

I have not read the books, I am quoting the Forgotten Realms wiki. So, the only enemy that could counter the Darkness tactic was a blind Ranger? Why didn't every single other enemy or monster just walk out of the globe?

"Faerie fire is a druid evocation that causes an object to glow as if it were burning like a candle, although there is no physical heat. The colour of the fire can vary according to the caster's choice."

Candles don't pierce magical darkness, Faerie Fire doesn't pierce magical darkness.

And the ranger wasn't an enemy, if anything he was a mentor.  I'm also trying to remember many other situations where Dark Elves even *used* Darkness, and when they did they relied on Blind Fight training and keen senses, NEVER Ultravision or an equivalent.  They just trusted they could fight better in darkness than their opponent.

Luminus wrote...

Most monsters/thugs/pirates etc, don't know how the Darkness spell works. To them, the world grows dark and are being attacked next. Of course they are going to defend themselves on the spot.  That's like saying that using Delayed Blast Fireballs to set up traps is exploiting the AI because they just walk on it every time.

If we're talking about one enemy, less of a big deal.  It'll actually fight back.  If you cast it on a group, all but will act like they are mentally retarded and stand there doing *nothing* while their friend(s) are fighting (and dying) around them.  Despite the noise, they stand there and do *nothing.*  That's the part that exploits the AI.

The DBF is more like an trap/ambush, though I do think it is exploiting if you lay down 20 on top of each other or something.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Whitelaughter]

    do you ever use this spell?

 

My primary use of darkness in the OC is to prevent guards and other bystanders from realising that I am killing off Helmite clerics. Since it is the same level as Continual Flame, I don't otherwise use it as doing so would cut into my revenue stream.