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[upinya slayin]

Fortack wrote...

landylan wrote...

This thread is about how weapons outclass powers.

Which is why this thread is stupid. ME gameplay is about using powers AND weapons, not one or the other.

My weapons outclass powers by another 50% with that boost.

Of course they do. Weapons + Powers = most effective way to fight (for everyone).

the idea is to balance the game so that using both in sync is the best, the game used to be way more powerfull for power classes then weapon classes but now its completly flipped around. they dind't balance the scale the tipped it towards weapons. that was the point of the thread. the need to buff powers again to balance it out

[DaDiddles]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

VDubb wrote...

Sad thing is, we'll see weapon bonuses getting nerfed before we see powers getting buffed.

This is the sad truth. Instead of buffing everything to be on par with the weapons, they just nerf everything.
What I wouldn't give for a buff to non-kroguard Biotic Charge, less cooldown, more impact force (enough to stagger a phantom in gold if full damage/force specc'd), it would make a hell of a difference.

I don't understand this sentiment. We still get way more buffs than nerfs. Last week buffed 4 guns and 1 power, this week nerfed 2 guns. You're still net +3 buffs just in the last two balance updates.

We've seen classes that underperformed (to put it lightly) now work very well in the right hands. The Krogan Sentinel was pretty crappy at launch, but after numerous buffs, many people swear by the class. I remember trying the Human Adept when it first came out and thought it was the worst class in the game. Now with extra combo damage and a longer base with shockwave*, he's actually quite good.

And if staggering phantoms is a problem for you with Vanguards, try the Acolyte. It takes some getting used to, but one shot will stagger a phantom which usually makes it safe to charge in. It also shreds their shields pretty quickly.

*edit

Modifié par DaDiddles, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[upinya slayin]

landylan wrote...

Fortack wrote...

landylan wrote...

This thread is about how weapons outclass powers.

Which is why this thread is stupid. ME gameplay is about using powers AND weapons, not one or the other.

My weapons outclass powers by another 50% with that boost.

Of course they do. Weapons + Powers = most effective way to fight (for everyone).

Ok. Let me rephrase it. This thread is about characters that deal insane single target dps being superior to power spammer in platinum.

You're twisting everything...You know that tactical cloak isn't the kind of power we are talking about. It doesn't do any damage. It just inreases it.

exactly. a "power" that just boosts weapons damage isn't really a power. its for weapons. Pure power damage is realted to biotics, tech, and BEs and TBs. before you could get by on that alone

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Fortack wrote...

landylan wrote...

This thread is about how weapons outclass powers.

Which is why this thread is stupid. ME gameplay is about using powers AND weapons, not one or the other.

You seem to fail to comprehend that some classes are designed around weapon usage and some are designed around power usage.  The classes designed around power usage are weaker than those designed around weapons. That is bad for the game and that is not balance. It is not ok that weapons greatly outclass powers.

[upinya slayin]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Fortack wrote...

landylan wrote...

This thread is about how weapons outclass powers.

Which is why this thread is stupid. ME gameplay is about using powers AND weapons, not one or the other.

You seem to fail to comprehend that some classes are designed around weapon usage and some are designed around power usage.  The classes designed around power usage are weaker than those designed around weapons. That is bad for the game and that is not balance. It is not ok that weapons greatly outclass powers.

glad some people get it

[Kyerea]

Uh, that's been Edmonton's stance on the MP for a couple months now. Ever since they nerfed BEs actually. It was a good thing they did as well, 4-room Adept BE spam months ago was OP as all Hell. While people who don't play characters with guns might not like it (or at least those who can't aim worth a lick), it does make sense within the context and lore of the game. The average Biotics are not Gillian Grayson/Jack, and power combos are not meant to supplant a good bullet between the eyes. Power Combos can still kill enemies and even groups of enemies mind you, but gunplay is the underlying theme of combat in the game. Guns over power combos and I do agree with them on this one (this is also coming from someone who happens to enjoy the N7 Fury over every other character at the moment).

Modifié par Kyerea, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:51 .

[Fortack]

landylan wrote...

Ok. Let me rephrase it. This thread is about characters that deal insane single target dps being superior to power spammer in platinum.

You're twisting everything...You know that tactical cloak isn't the kind of power we are talking about. It doesn't do any damage. It just inreases it.

Spamming powers only = severely gimping yourself on purpose.

All I am saying is that characters do exactly the same amount of damage when they use the same weapon. Some have powers that gives them a weapon damage bonus, others have powers that deal direct damage (and do a whole bunch of other things too btw). Different ways to accomplish the same thing - heck, that's why I like playing this game. I think it's fun to find (the best and/or most fun) ways to use every character (effectively). Experimenting with different weapons that work best in combination with their powers is kind of the point.

[landylan]

Fortack wrote...

landylan wrote...

Ok. Let me rephrase it. This thread is about characters that deal insane single target dps being superior to power spammer in platinum.

You're twisting everything...You know that tactical cloak isn't the kind of power we are talking about. It doesn't do any damage. It just inreases it.

Spamming powers only = severely gimping yourself on purpose.

All I am saying is that characters do exactly the same amount of damage when they use the same weapon. Some have powers that gives them a weapon damage bonus, others have powers that deal direct damage (and do a whole bunch of other things too btw). Different ways to accomplish the same thing - heck, that's why I like playing this game. I think it's fun to find (the best and/or most fun) ways to use every character (effectively). Experimenting with different weapons that work best in combination with their powers is kind of the point.

Asari adept with a claymore kinda sucks compared to the infiltrator with a claymore. Typhoon works wonderfully on my fury. He helps the team as much as the typhoon destroyer on platinum. 

[Fortack]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

You seem to fail to comprehend that some classes are designed around weapon usage and some are designed around power usage.  The classes designed around power usage are weaker than those designed around weapons. That is bad for the game and that is not balance. It is not ok that weapons greatly outclass powers.

I think you missed the fact that every character in this game is an elite soldier, trained to use every weapon (thank the Goddess). If you refuse to accept that fact then that's your problem, not a problem of the game(play).

Please give me one example of a single character in all 3 games who fights without using a weapon.

[Stinja]

Samara and Liara were heavily biased towards bioitcs, they carried guns, but most cutscenes with them were biotic focused i believe.

Kyerea wrote...

gunplay is the underlying theme of combat in the game.

Which game?

In ME3, then yes it is gun orientated - i partly blame the popularity of Call of Duty like games, and BW/EA chasing that marketshare.  
In ME1 i'd argue strongly that that game was biotic focused, and biotics (in lore and gameplay) were stronger than guns, but rare.

Even in ME3 "average" Asari biotics are very powerful;  the cutscene of  low-level tropper holding a biotic sphere which is bouncing missiles and gun fire completely!

Anyways,  i'd personally prefer more balance between tech - biotic - guns, and i agree with the OP in that it does seem to be skewing towards guns, and especially grenades.

Modifié par Stinja, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:03 .

[Pedro Costa]

DaDiddles wrote...
And if staggering phantoms is a problem for you with Vanguards, try the Acolyte. It takes some getting used to, but one shot will stagger a phantom which usually makes it safe to charge in. It also shreds their shields pretty quickly.

But then you're only giving reason to the OP: weapons are performing better than powers.

Basically, I need to take one specific gun for one specific enemy, because my Biotic Charge doesn't have something from 25N (asari/phoenix/slayer) to 75N (human/drell) more impact force? Seriously?

[capn233]

Stinja wrote...

In ME1 i'd argue strongly that that game was biotic focused, and biotics (in lore and gameplay) were stronger than guns, but rare.

But it wasn't really.  Biotics and Tech were great for CC, but they did not do a whole lot of damage by themselves.  Hell, combo Lift into Throw and all that would happen is a guy would be at the bottom of the mountain and still have near full health.  That is unless you were on a story line mission where there were "edges" where the enemy would get killed.

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:07 .

[Xaijin]

In platinum using biotics takes way too long to kill things,

Stasis-less dual rank 6 asari would like a word with you.

[bob2.0]

I've always wondered why there wasn't a thing for biotics/tech users regarding their implant/omni-tool that was like mods for weapons.

I've also wondered why some people think it's okay for power users to always be the ace of spades. Before the Earth DLC, I was the only soldier in the lobbies I was in. Everyone else? Adept, engie and sentinel.

Modifié par bob2.0, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:23 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Fortack wrote...

I think you missed the fact that every character in this game is an elite soldier, trained to use every weapon (thank the Goddess). If you refuse to accept that fact then that's your problem, not a problem of the game(play).

Please give me one example of a single character in all 3 games who fights without using a weapon.

Your failure to understand the fact that some classes are designed to focus on guns and some on powers is astounding.   Your continual insistance that it is good that the gun focussed classes outclass that power-focused classes is bizzare. Why even have the power focussed classes if ME 3 is degenerating into being all about gun-play? Just get rid of them and only have gun focussed classes.

Sure, when I'm playing a a powers focussed class I shoot between cooldowns. The power focussed class will of necessity carry a lighter, less effective weapon and will be inferior in use of said weapon when compared to a gun focused character. Such combination of powers and guns by the power focussed character is still less effective than what the gun focussed character can accomplish.

You must have skipped over the cut scenes in the games. Samara and Jak for example were always shown devastating things with their biotics.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:25 .

[Fortack]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Sure, when I'm playing a a powers focussed class I shoot between cooldowns. The power focussed class will of necessity carry a lighter, less effective weapon and will be inferior in use of said weapon when compared to a gun focused character. Such combination of powers and guns by the power focussed character is still less effective than what the gun focussed character can accomplish.

An Infiltrator or Soldier with weapon X who doesn't use their powers = an Adept or Engineer with weapon X without using their powers. Their are no "gun focussed" classes in this game, only those who have Combat, Tech, and/or Biotic powers to aid them in combat. If you don't like that fact, I don't understand why you play this game. Go play Skyrim or Dragon Age or something and select a mage, pick up a stave and go casting fireballs.

[Shampoohorn]

Pedactor wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

Take annhilation field into the middle of a mob and then detonate it. Powers rule.

That works well on Platinum...........

Don't detonate it. That way when you die it will stay active over your corpse.

[heybigmoney]

Its because ppl are still playing the power based classes like they did 4 months ago. There is practically no reason to have 200% recharge on any class now. If you think you are going to keep up with weapon based classes with a phalanx x on your asari adept you are going to be blown out of the water. Sacrifice some recharge speed and take a heavier hitting weapon like the piranha and you'll have better results.

[bob2.0]

The Carnifex, unmodded on gold, has higher raw DPS than half the weapons in this game. Shortly after people started unlocking it, it largely made the entire assault rifle class of weapons obsolete.
Cut scenes, right. I'd love for my M-8 Avenger to kill everything I point it at on gold/plat with a quick burst. Because being able to one shot a ****ing combat mech with a single biotic punch is completely acceptable.
Some posts seem like thinly veiled arguments to maintain the status quo of power spammers dominating the game.

And the poster above me is correct. Adapt and overcome.

Modifié par bob2.0, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:42 .

[Kyerea]

Stinja wrote...

Samara and Liara were heavily biased towards bioitcs, they carried guns, but most cutscenes with them were biotic focused i believe.

Kyerea wrote...

gunplay is the underlying theme of combat in the game.

Which game?

In ME3, then yes it is gun orientated - i partly blame the popularity of Call of Duty like games, and BW/EA chasing that marketshare.  
In ME1 i'd argue strongly that that game was biotic focused, and biotics (in lore and gameplay) were stronger than guns, but rare.

Even in ME3 "average" Asari biotics are very powerful;  the cutscene of  low-level tropper holding a biotic sphere which is bouncing missiles and gun fire completely!

Anyways,  i'd personally prefer more balance between tech - biotic - guns, and i agree with the OP in that it does seem to be skewing towards guns, and especially grenades.

Which GAME do you think I'm referring to on a forum for ME3 MP discussion? You take my entire paragraph and only remove ONE line from ONE sentence? The AVERAGE Biotic in the ME3 MP experience IS NOT MEANT to supplant guns and fvcking cannons. The ones that were death-incarnate are INCREDIBLY rare, and typically only seen in the single-player experience (which has characters within Shepard's party that are arguably the best specialists in the galaxy). The characters you are playing in the MP (besides the latest N7 characters) are all average specialists in their given field(s). They are not the exceptional indviduals who stand as the paragon(s) of their respective peers. Hence why they were in Shepard's crew to begin with, or associated with him/her in his/her fight against the Reapers.

Even Liara's mother comments that the Reaper War is not a war that Asari physiology or tactics/strategy can adapt to. It's exactly the kind of engagement that doesn't befit a species which over aeons had been using tactics/strategies that complemented their physiological strengths. The Edmonton team NERFED BEs for the reason that A.) it didn't fit their theme of how the MP was meant to be structured in it's ability-to-weapon hierarcy and B.) Adept players were exploiting BEs for sub-15 minute Gold runs in public games. So it got the nerf-hammer.

Does weaker Power Combos mean I score any less on my N7 Fury? Fvck no, I'm a good player, I get a high score or outscore Destroyers and Infiltrators in Gold/Plat games. I've even seen single-non Fury Adepts still outdamage some Infiltrators in random games. Good players can make anything work, and power combos have their own benefits to usage (like not needing to be a primarily-weapon based class for one). In fact, Tech Power Combos are more popular than ever since they can be triggered with ammo types and a simple grenade (Fire Explosion mob-wiping anyone?). While Power Comboing may not do as much damage to SINGLE or LIMITED number of targets all at once like Infiltrators/Soldier classes can dish out with various weapons, they are still a force to be reckoned with in the game and fill in the role they are meant to be. BEs and Tech Power Combos are and should remain, as a form of mobile-heavy fire support. Biotic/Tech Artillery Squads SYNERGIZING with weapon-based dps builds. Sounds like a good CO-OP experience to me.

Modifié par Kyerea, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[upinya slayin]

Kyerea wrote...

Stinja wrote...

Samara and Liara were heavily biased towards bioitcs, they carried guns, but most cutscenes with them were biotic focused i believe.

Kyerea wrote...

gunplay is the underlying theme of combat in the game.

Which game?

In ME3, then yes it is gun orientated - i partly blame the popularity of Call of Duty like games, and BW/EA chasing that marketshare.  
In ME1 i'd argue strongly that that game was biotic focused, and biotics (in lore and gameplay) were stronger than guns, but rare.

Even in ME3 "average" Asari biotics are very powerful;  the cutscene of  low-level tropper holding a biotic sphere which is bouncing missiles and gun fire completely!

Anyways,  i'd personally prefer more balance between tech - biotic - guns, and i agree with the OP in that it does seem to be skewing towards guns, and especially grenades.

Which GAME do you think I'm referring to on a forum for ME3 MP discussion? You take my entire paragraph and only remove ONE line from ONE sentence? The AVERAGE Biotic in the ME3 MP experience IS NOT MEANT to supplant guns and fvcking cannons. The ones that were death-incarnate are INCREDIBLY rare, and typically only seen in the single-player experience (which has characters within Shepard's party that are arguably the best specialists in the galaxy). The characters you are playing in the MP (besides the latest N7 characters) are all average specialists in their given field(s). They are not the exceptional indviduals who stand as the paragon(s) of their respective peers. Hence why they were in Shepard's crew to begin with, or associated with him/her in his/her fight against the Reapers.

Even Liara's mother comments that the Reaper War is not a war that Asari physiology or tactics/strategy can adapt to. It's exactly the kind of engagement that doesn't befit a species which over aeons had been using tactics/strategies that complemented their physiological strengths. The Edmonton team NERFED BEs for the reason that A.) it didn't fit their theme of how the MP was meant to be structured in it's ability-to-weapon hierarcy and B.) Adept players were exploiting BEs for sub-15 minute Gold runs in public games. So it got the nerf-hammer.

Does weaker Power Combos mean I score any less on my N7 Fury? Fvck no, I'm a good player, I get a high score or outscore Destroyers and Infiltrators in Gold/Plat games. I've even seen single-non Fury Adepts still outdamage some Infiltrators in random games. Good players can make anything work, and power combos have their own benefits to usage (like not needing to be a primarily-weapon based class for one). In fact, Tech Power Combos are more popular than ever since they can be triggered with ammo types and a simple grenade (Fire Explosion mob-wiping anyone?). While Power Comboing may not do as much damage to SINGLE or LIMITED number of targets all at once like Infiltrators/Soldier classes can dish out with various weapons, they are still a force to be reckoned with in the game and fill in the role they are meant to be. BEs and Tech Power Combos are and should remain, as a form of mobile-heavy fire support. Biotic/Tech Artillery Squads SYNERGIZING with weapon-based dps builds. Sounds like a good CO-OP experience to me.

i've done sub 15 mintues with batarian soldiers, infiltrators, egth melee builds. etc. and now people have done 12 min platinum with shotguns. does taht mean nerf shotguns? no matter what people will find the most powerful thing in the game and sue their skill to exploit it and beat anything BW can throw at them, the nerfing hurts the average to sub-par players (which is more then 80% i'd saY) more then it hurts the really good to elite players

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Fortack wrote...
 Their are no "gun focussed" classes in this game, only those who have Combat, Tech, and/or Biotic powers to aid them in combat. If you don't like that fact, I don't understand why you play this game. Go play Skyrim or Dragon Age or something and select a mage, pick up a stave and go casting fireballs.

It is quite silly to say that a soldier and an assari adept are both classes that revolve around guns. If you can't comprehend that I don't think the Mass Effect Universe is for you.

[MyChemicalBromance]

The original Engineer can still keep up with everything around today. Combine a Rocket Drone with Incinerate/Overload and a lightweight high-damage weapon (N7 Hurricane), and your DPS will still be viable. Your methods of damage are just more varied.

[Pedactor]

Thoragoros wrote...

Pedactor wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...


The Krogan Soldier is awesome.  Excellent survivability, which is only heightened by properly teched Damage Reduction.  He has high base weight meaning you can carry decent guns and matain decent cooldown.  He has massive damage output potential, along side built in melee bonsuses.

The Batarian Soldier, while definitly a niche class, also huge potential.  He has excelent surviability, with Blade Armor melee bonsues.  Balastic Blades is murder against mooks and certain bosses.

So while the Destroyer is definitely a decent class and current crowd favorite, that doesn't mean the other Soldiers are somehow flawed.  They definitely aren't.

Krogan Sentinel has better grenades, more survivability, and maintains a strong melee bonus from Tech Armor while going full shields/health in Fitness.  No issues with Cooldowns since there's no abilities.

6/0/6/6/6 (zero is Carnage)

Better grenades than the Soldier, better Damage reduction than the Soldier, and who cares about CD's when you aren't using any powers other than Grenades?  The amount of damage reduction, shields, and health on that guy is unbelievable, too.

His only weakness is getting staggered by the lame ass Geth.  Which is my point:

He's a better soldier than every Soldier but the Destroyer...........and he's a Sentinel.

Wait, what?  Why are you comparing the Krogan Sentinel to the Soldier Destroyer?

Besides, the Krogan Sentinel is there to tank.  'Tanks' are meant to soak damage while dealing average to high damage, which is exactly what the Krogan Sentinel does.  And yes, Lift Grenades are generally accepted to be the best grenades in the game.  

So what?

Also, the Krogan Sentinel, if I remember correctly, has somewhere in the vicinity of 1600 Health and 1600 Shields with a hefty 50% damage reduction to both if his shields are up and teched properly.  That means the Krogan Sentinel has the equiviliant of 2400 Health and 2400 Shields when Tech Armor is up.

As I said, the Krogan Sentinel is there to tank.  He is the only character in the game that can safely keep his head up in Gold/Platinum with very little to worry about.

If I don't spec Carnage on either, then they are both essentially the same thing, except one has amazing grenades and more survivability and one has grenades that don't hit as hard and is squishier.

And no, I don't spec Carnage on either so I can carry an AR and a Shotgun and not worry about recharge while speccing completely into Weapon damage.

Which is essentially what soldiers are: weapon based, not power based, outside of maybe a CD to increase weapon damage.

Concussive Shot maybe the worst ability in the game, Carnage is similar, but a little more useful.  But if to use those abilities I end up giving up damage evolutions or protection evolutions to use them (like AR's 6th evolution) then it's counter productive since I end up with cooldown collisions, unless I spec a certain way (and this is only for humans, for Turians it's much clearer which CD is the best.)

Modifié par Pedactor, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:00 .

[upinya slayin]

Pedactor wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...

Pedactor wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...


The Krogan Soldier is awesome.  Excellent survivability, which is only heightened by properly teched Damage Reduction.  He has high base weight meaning you can carry decent guns and matain decent cooldown.  He has massive damage output potential, along side built in melee bonsuses.

The Batarian Soldier, while definitly a niche class, also huge potential.  He has excelent surviability, with Blade Armor melee bonsues.  Balastic Blades is murder against mooks and certain bosses.

So while the Destroyer is definitely a decent class and current crowd favorite, that doesn't mean the other Soldiers are somehow flawed.  They definitely aren't.

Krogan Sentinel has better grenades, more survivability, and maintains a strong melee bonus from Tech Armor while going full shields/health in Fitness.  No issues with Cooldowns since there's no abilities.

6/0/6/6/6 (zero is Carnage)

Better grenades than the Soldier, better Damage reduction than the Soldier, and who cares about CD's when you aren't using any powers other than Grenades?  The amount of damage reduction, shields, and health on that guy is unbelievable, too.

His only weakness is getting staggered by the lame ass Geth.  Which is my point:

He's a better soldier than every Soldier but the Destroyer...........and he's a Sentinel.

Wait, what?  Why are you comparing the Krogan Sentinel to the Soldier Destroyer?

Besides, the Krogan Sentinel is there to tank.  'Tanks' are meant to soak damage while dealing average to high damage, which is exactly what the Krogan Sentinel does.  And yes, Lift Grenades are generally accepted to be the best grenades in the game.  

So what?

Also, the Krogan Sentinel, if I remember correctly, has somewhere in the vicinity of 1600 Health and 1600 Shields with a hefty 50% damage reduction to both if his shields are up and teched properly.  That means the Krogan Sentinel has the equiviliant of 2400 Health and 2400 Shields when Tech Armor is up.

As I said, the Krogan Sentinel is there to tank.  He is the only character in the game that can safely keep his head up in Gold/Platinum with very little to worry about.

If I don't spec Carnage on either, then they are both essentially the same thing, except one has amazing grenades and more survivability and one has grenades that don't hit as hard and is squishier.

And no, I don't spec Carnage on either so I can carry an AR and a Shotgun and not worry about recharge while speccing completely into Weapon damage.

Which is essentially what soldiers are: weapon based, not power based, outside of maybe a CD to increase weapon damage.

Concussive Shot maybe the worst ability in the game, Carnage is similar, but a little more useful.  But if to use those abilities I end up giving up damage evolutions or protection evolutions to use them (like AR's 6th evolution) then it's counter productive since I end up with cooldown collisions, unless I spec a certain way (and this is only for humans, for Turians it's much clearer which CD is the best.)

1 crappy power makes speccing out characters easy