348 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

chemiclord wrote...

Reorte wrote...

eye basher wrote...

That's the problem with gamers this days no imagination.

No, it is not. It's the job of the storyteller to use his imagination to satisfy the player otherwise a bare bones synopsis would be entirely satisfactory. Or a straightforward shooter, where you can imagine a load of story around it if you like. I want a story to fire my imagination and inspire me to go and create for myself, not to finish the story. I also want the level of detail and description to remain constant throughout a story. Some are more vague and ambiguous, some detail every little thing, both can be good, and both fail if they switch at all.

People with no imagination are the ones who are satisfied with the superficial. They don't care about plot or characters, they just like whizzy effects and explosions and don't care whether they're there for a good reason or not.

Then you will agree that Mass Effect is not your story, then?

Sure, it's not my story but that doesn't mean I'll happily accept the writers doing a crap job at a crucial point of it.

[Iakus]

RoboticWays wrote...
I myself, Hate the ending. But i dont see a real reason to make thread after thread about it. Sure, we feel cheated, but for what good is it going to do, to sit around talking about how we were cheated? EC was the end, That's all they're doing to the it, that's the farthest it's getting tweaked. So if you wanted more variables added to give everybody the happy ending they wanted, you're asking a lemon tree for apples. ME deserved a better ending. But BW isnt giving it one. The closest thing you can get, is a Reunion DLC for those with high EMS, but even that is a longshot. I compared it to Inception because that is who BW tried to copy as far as the speculation ending, I honestly believe BW made precautions to add conspiracy (i.e. The IT, Waking nightmare) by leaking their script and their brainstorming ideas. They tried to do it by softening our fall, when they never intended to make those the endings in the first place. People are looking for deeper meanings, trying to give BW more credit than they deserve. But oh well, thats for another thread.

As far as what you say about synthesis, i was aware of this, that's why i didnt pick synthesis. 

You're preaching to the choir.

Problem with the Inception analogy is that it actually showed a reunion.  Then you got to speculate.  What we got in ME3 was the equivalent of ending the movie with Cobb taking a breath on the airplane.  Was he waking up?  Or was that a snore?

As to posting here, well, the Dragon Age boards are pretty slow for the time being.  And having a registered copy of ME3 lets me post here.  So I might as well get my money's worth until DA3 is announced

[RoboticWays]

I've heard rediculous headcanon speculations. I've heard that after refuse, in the same room with Liara's message to the next cycle, Is the cryo capsules of Shepard and his squad. I've heard that Harbinger, had all of the other Reapers indoctrinated, and that every cycle, there is one person with enough will to break the others from Harbinger's influence, and that Shepard is the catalyst that the Crucible needs. Some people have fun with these endings, they believe everything after the "Run for the conduit" scene, is symbolism.

Modifié par RoboticWays, 25 juillet 2012 - 09:17 .

[RoboticWays]

iakus wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...
I myself, Hate the ending. But i dont see a real reason to make thread after thread about it. Sure, we feel cheated, but for what good is it going to do, to sit around talking about how we were cheated? EC was the end, That's all they're doing to the it, that's the farthest it's getting tweaked. So if you wanted more variables added to give everybody the happy ending they wanted, you're asking a lemon tree for apples. ME deserved a better ending. But BW isnt giving it one. The closest thing you can get, is a Reunion DLC for those with high EMS, but even that is a longshot. I compared it to Inception because that is who BW tried to copy as far as the speculation ending, I honestly believe BW made precautions to add conspiracy (i.e. The IT, Waking nightmare) by leaking their script and their brainstorming ideas. They tried to do it by softening our fall, when they never intended to make those the endings in the first place. People are looking for deeper meanings, trying to give BW more credit than they deserve. But oh well, thats for another thread.

As far as what you say about synthesis, i was aware of this, that's why i didnt pick synthesis. 

You're preaching to the choir.

Problem with the Inception analogy is that it actually showed a reunion.  Then you got to speculate.  What we got in ME3 was the equivalent of ending the movie with Cobb taking a breath on the airplane.  Was he waking up?  Or was that a snore?

As to posting here, well, the Dragon Age boards are pretty slow for the time being.  And having a registered copy of ME3 lets me post here.  So I might as well get my money's worth until DA3 is announced

Lol you're right, But the spinning top at the end never really says if he is dreaming or not. Regardless of if he is dreaming, he is happy, and so are the consumers who payed money to see it. This is what ME3 lacks.

[WhereEternityEnds]

As Atheyme as my witness, I will never stop *****ing on this board until I get some goddamned closure.   Must....hold the line...!

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

As much as any role playing campaign is the GMs.  Or the players'.

I don't like killer GMs...

If the GM wrote every line of dialogue in the campaign, and made you choose which one you wanted, the comparison would be apt.  Since they don't, sorry... the analogy does not work.  There is no player/GM cooperation in Mass Effect.  They do everything.  You just read from the script they already wrote in full.

And the answer to not playing with "killer GMs" is not to play with them.  Problem solved.

But the greater point is, you can't scream "this is our story too!" then refuse to make it your story when prompted.  Either it was never "our story" in the first place, or you never wanted it to be.

"It's our story... well, until we don't want it to be... after that point, it's all yours... BUT YOU BETTER TELL IT THE WAY I WANT IT!"  doesn't fly.

computer games are not as sophisticated as tabletop games, no.  But if the storyline can be altered based on the choice I make, then the analogy holds.  Better than teh movie analogy, at least.

As to "Killer GMs" yes, not playng with them is the answer.  If I knew then what I know now, I never would have gotten intot he Mass Effect universe.  But I don't think Bioware likes that answer.

And I'm not asking them to tell the story "the way I want it"  What I'm asking for is taking the the ending a litle bit further, make it a bit happier.  Give me more of a foundation to speculate on happiness for Shepard.  If Ihave to headcanon the ending, I need more to work with.

[Reorte]

Adding to my reply about the "It's not your story" excuse - it wasn't my story but it was a story for me and everyone else who had been enjoying it up until the ME3 fell apart.

[3DandBeyond]

RoboticWays wrote...


I myself, Hate the ending. But i dont see a real reason to make thread after thread about it. Sure, we feel cheated, but for what good is it going to do, to sit around talking about how we were cheated? EC was the end, That's all they're doing to the it, that's the farthest it's getting tweaked. So if you wanted more variables added to give everybody the happy ending they wanted, you're asking a lemon tree for apples. ME deserved a better ending. But BW isnt giving it one. The closest thing you can get, is a Reunion DLC for those with high EMS, but even that is a longshot. I compared it to Inception because that is who BW tried to copy as far as the speculation ending, I honestly believe BW made precautions to add conspiracy (i.e. The IT, Waking nightmare) by leaking their script and their brainstorming ideas. They tried to do it by softening our fall, when they never intended to make those the endings in the first place. People are looking for deeper meanings, trying to give BW more credit than they deserve. But oh well, thats for another thread.

As far as what you say about synthesis, i was aware of this, that's why i didnt pick synthesis. 

You're preaching to the choir.

I do agree with you, but it's my only point is to put it in context.  A reunion DLC has to be attached to something because Bioware doesn't even think it deserves any attention whatsoever.  I'll explain.  I saw pre-EC questions on twitter to J Merizan asking if there'd be a reunion in the EC.  You and I know what that means, what the person wanted to know.  JM said yes there would be.  This has since been deleted.  I saw it.  People got the EC, coudn't find a reunion and wondered if this was similar to the original MP for SP debacle in order to get high enough EMS, so they asked her about it-how to get it.  She said it wasn't in the game.  People said she said it was.  She said that it was there, Shepard's alive and clearly a reunion happened as it's implied.  Then, other devs said it wasn't there because they didn't know people wanted one-ok you had to be dead not to know this.  Then, JM said there was no reunion in the game because everyone would want something different.  Other devs started saying they didn't do one because they couldn't personalize one for everyone.  They then started saying they purposely made it ambiguous.  Speculation for everyone.   On twitter.  Never here.  Twitter.

Next came comic con-on a panel one dev said the gasp scene was a beacon of hope.  And in the same panel Chris Hepler said the kid at the beginning of the game was there so Shepard knew what s/he was fighting for.  Ok, full blown idiot mode.  He also said events in the slides take place in the future, some 200-300 years and it was great to see what happened to the Krogan.  We needed a lot of closure for the Krogan, apparently.  He also said the gasp scene was Shepard's dying gasp.

So, I asked about this on twitter and said people wanted a reunion and this has hurt them.  I was told there was no interest in discussing it further and if I didn't  like it to move on.  I don't twitter much and only went there to ask why one dev said it was a sign of hope and another said Shepard's dead.

I do have the twitter post and it's on its way to a friend who may or may not be of some help with this.   Corporate owners of companies don't like their customers being told to F off.

I fully support efforts to get them to release more DLC.  Some have contacted Mike Gamble to ask about this and others have gone right to EA with complaints.

[Jadebaby]

YES!! You are SOO ****ing right OP!

Why would they even put all that crap in there about seeing each other again, when we'd already played the original ending and new what the **** was coming!?

Sorry about the language, but if there's one part of the ending that pisses me off the most, it's this!

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, I asked about this on twitter and said people wanted a reunion and this has hurt them.  I was told there was no interest in discussing it further and if I didn't  like it to move on.  I don't twitter much and only went there to ask why one dev said it was a sign of hope and another said Shepard's dead.

I do have the twitter post and it's on its way to a friend who may or may not be of some help with this.   Corporate owners of companies don't like their customers being told to F off.

I fully support efforts to get them to release more DLC.  Some have contacted Mike Gamble to ask about this and others have gone right to EA with complaints.

Someone seriously said that?

That's really...yeah...

[RiouHotaru]

chemiclord wrote...

If the GM wrote every line of dialogue in the campaign, and made you choose which one you wanted, the comparison would be apt.  Since they don't, sorry... the analogy does not work.  There is no player/GM cooperation in Mass Effect.  They do everything.  You just read from the script they already wrote in full.

And the answer to not playing with "killer GMs" is not to play with them.  Problem solved.

But the greater point is, you can't scream "this is our story too!" then refuse to make it your story when prompted.  Either it was never "our story" in the first place, or you never wanted it to be.

"It's our story... well, until we don't want it to be... after that point, it's all yours... BUT YOU BETTER TELL IT THE WAY I WANT IT!"  doesn't fly.

This.  People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.

The solution to this is incredibly simple:

If your Shepard lived because you wanted them to live in High EMS Destroy, then they live.

If not, they die.

Bioware even stated there's NO canon ending.

[Reorte]

RiouHotaru wrote...

This.  People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.

Are they? Of course if it turns out satisfying anyway it won't bother you as much but that's quite different from being completely fine with it. That's why we're playing a game instead of watching a film here.

The solution to this is incredibly simple:

If your Shepard lived because you wanted them to live in High EMS Destroy, then they live.

If not, they die.

Bioware even stated there's NO canon ending.

And how many times does it need spelling out to people like you that just about everyone realises that that's the intention but just finds it cheap, crap, and unsatisfying? Stop making excuses for BW not being bothered to do their job. No canon ending means that Destroy, Control, Synthesis, Refuse are all equally valid. It doesn't mean "We can't be arsed to finish this off so do it yourself."

[RoboticWays]

3DandBeyond wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...


I myself, Hate the ending. But i dont see a real reason to make thread after thread about it. Sure, we feel cheated, but for what good is it going to do, to sit around talking about how we were cheated? EC was the end, That's all they're doing to the it, that's the farthest it's getting tweaked. So if you wanted more variables added to give everybody the happy ending they wanted, you're asking a lemon tree for apples. ME deserved a better ending. But BW isnt giving it one. The closest thing you can get, is a Reunion DLC for those with high EMS, but even that is a longshot. I compared it to Inception because that is who BW tried to copy as far as the speculation ending, I honestly believe BW made precautions to add conspiracy (i.e. The IT, Waking nightmare) by leaking their script and their brainstorming ideas. They tried to do it by softening our fall, when they never intended to make those the endings in the first place. People are looking for deeper meanings, trying to give BW more credit than they deserve. But oh well, thats for another thread.

As far as what you say about synthesis, i was aware of this, that's why i didnt pick synthesis. 

You're preaching to the choir.

I do agree with you, but it's my only point is to put it in context.  A reunion DLC has to be attached to something because Bioware doesn't even think it deserves any attention whatsoever.  I'll explain.  I saw pre-EC questions on twitter to J Merizan asking if there'd be a reunion in the EC.  You and I know what that means, what the person wanted to know.  JM said yes there would be.  This has since been deleted.  I saw it.  People got the EC, coudn't find a reunion and wondered if this was similar to the original MP for SP debacle in order to get high enough EMS, so they asked her about it-how to get it.  She said it wasn't in the game.  People said she said it was.  She said that it was there, Shepard's alive and clearly a reunion happened as it's implied.  Then, other devs said it wasn't there because they didn't know people wanted one-ok you had to be dead not to know this.  Then, JM said there was no reunion in the game because everyone would want something different.  Other devs started saying they didn't do one because they couldn't personalize one for everyone.  They then started saying they purposely made it ambiguous.  Speculation for everyone.   On twitter.  Never here.  Twitter.

Next came comic con-on a panel one dev said the gasp scene was a beacon of hope.  And in the same panel Chris Hepler said the kid at the beginning of the game was there so Shepard knew what s/he was fighting for.  Ok, full blown idiot mode.  He also said events in the slides take place in the future, some 200-300 years and it was great to see what happened to the Krogan.  We needed a lot of closure for the Krogan, apparently.  He also said the gasp scene was Shepard's dying gasp.

So, I asked about this on twitter and said people wanted a reunion and this has hurt them.  I was told there was no interest in discussing it further and if I didn't  like it to move on.  I don't twitter much and only went there to ask why one dev said it was a sign of hope and another said Shepard's dead.

I do have the twitter post and it's on its way to a friend who may or may not be of some help with this.   Corporate owners of companies don't like their customers being told to F off.

I fully support efforts to get them to release more DLC.  Some have contacted Mike Gamble to ask about this and others have gone right to EA with complaints.

If you watched the panel, when they said that maybe Shepard died, they said so in a joking manner. They said they wanted to add a little extra hope to those who scoured the citadel for assets and did every fetch mission. It's up to us to interpret. BW doesnt want to put more time and effort, they got tired with Shep's story. It's a sad truth. but thats what it has come down to, No more Commander Shepard. As far as what happened to you on twitter.. damn.

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This.  People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.

Are they? Of course if it turns out satisfying anyway it won't bother you as much but that's quite different from being completely fine with it. That's why we're playing a game instead of watching a film here.

That's the secret to "good railroading" to take the player in the direction they'd want to go anyway.

So if you want to go in the direction of "SHepard dies in a blaze of glory" you get all the closure you could want.

If you want to go in the direction of "Shepard Lives" well, you're SOL.

[TheHoneyRuns]

RiouHotaru wrote...

People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.
The solution to this is incredibly simple:
If your Shepard lived because you wanted them to live in High EMS Destroy, then they live.
If not, they die.
Bioware even stated there's NO canon ending.

I agree with everything you stated here, at least to the point where I'm not going to belabor the little things; everything with the exception of that last sentence. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense and rationale at this point, even the guys who flat-out loved the ending, should recognize that any sentence that begins, "Bioware even stated", or "Bioware said," immediately loses all credibility. Note that the statement loses credibility, not necessarily the person.

If a man is holding your dog for ransom, let's call him Mr. Don'tpooptherethat'sexpensivefabricyoulittlesh*t, Mr. Don'tpoopthere for short, and he promises to let Mr. Don'tpoopthere go if you just pay him seventy dollars, (well, eighty, I mean, you can't get Mr. Don'tpoopthere without his ten dollar prothean collar) and you then pay him that seventy (eighty) dollars, and he proceeds to shoot Mr. Don'tpoopthere in the face and laugh while you cry amongst the little bits of Mr. Don'tpoopthere's brain matter, then nothing that man says thereafter can be taken at face value.

Now this metaphor took me down a particular path, but please understand that I'm not suggesting Bioware stated that Shepard would live and then killed him. But they did promise that our choices would be reflected in the ending, and that it would be our own ending because of those choices. Not the choice that's forced upon us by that little blue Haley Joel muh-fu*kah at the end. Along with the multitude of other things they promised that bore no fruit, only dry droppings much like the ones Mr. Don'tpooptherethat'sexpensivefabricyoulittlesh*t used to leave behind before he was shot in the face, this makes anything they state worth less then a grain of salt.

That's all I'm saying.

[Jadebaby]

RiouHotaru wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

If the GM wrote every line of dialogue in the campaign, and made you choose which one you wanted, the comparison would be apt.  Since they don't, sorry... the analogy does not work.  There is no player/GM cooperation in Mass Effect.  They do everything.  You just read from the script they already wrote in full.

And the answer to not playing with "killer GMs" is not to play with them.  Problem solved.

But the greater point is, you can't scream "this is our story too!" then refuse to make it your story when prompted.  Either it was never "our story" in the first place, or you never wanted it to be.

"It's our story... well, until we don't want it to be... after that point, it's all yours... BUT YOU BETTER TELL IT THE WAY I WANT IT!"  doesn't fly.

This.  People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.

The solution to this is incredibly simple:

If your Shepard lived because you wanted them to live in High EMS Destroy, then they live.

If not, they die.

Bioware even stated there's NO canon ending.

There's no canon ending because their are 4 endings, not because Shepard may or may not live lolz.

I chose Destroy high EMS for my Shepard to survive. But I personally don't feel that it was possible. The Citadel ****ing blew up like chinese new year and that 20 sec clip of a single breath under rubble doesn't mean ****ing ****, other than to confuse me as to whether she is on citadel, or in fact, on Earth.

It isn't that simple. Maybe for you yes. But if it were the same for everyone, this thread wouldn't exist.

[Ticonderoga117]

TheHoneyRuns wrote...
I agree with everything you stated here, at least to the point where I'm not going to belabor the little things; everything with the exception of that last sentence. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense and rationale at this point, even the guys who flat-out loved the ending, should recognize that any sentence that begins, "Bioware even stated", or "Bioware said," immediately loses all credibility. Note that the statement loses credibility, not necessarily the person.

If a man is holding your dog for ransom, let's call him Mr. Don'tpooptherethat'sexpensivefabricyoulittlesh*t, Mr. Don'tpoopthere for short, and he promises to let Mr. Don'tpoopthere go if you just pay him seventy dollars, (well, eighty, I mean, you can't get Mr. Don'tpoopthere without his ten dollar prothean collar) and you then pay him that seventy (eighty) dollars, and he proceeds to shoot Mr. Don'tpoopthere in the face and laugh while you cry amongst the little bits of Mr. Don'tpoopthere's brain matter, then nothing that man says thereafter can be taken at face value.

Now this metaphor took me down a particular path, but please understand that I'm not suggesting Bioware stated that Shepard would live and then killed him. But they did promise that our choices would be reflected in the ending, and that it would be our own ending because of those choices. Not the choice that's forced upon us by that little blue Haley Joel muh-fu*kah at the end. Along with the multitude of other things they promised that bore no fruit, only dry droppings much like the ones Mr. Don'tpooptherethat'sexpensivefabricyoulittlesh*t used to leave behind before he was shot in the face, this makes anything they state worth less then a grain of salt.

That's all I'm saying.

+10 internets for a hilarious analogy.

[TheHoneyRuns]

"A fine gift! You have my thanks."

[comrade gando]

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP I agree. Honestly OP money on the table they will put it in another dlc so more people will buy it or better yet sell it individually for only $10 and unfortunately many myself included will buy it.

if they put in an expanded end sequence (like what was REALLY going on) then I begrudgingly would give them 10 dollars for it. but ONLY if it makes sense and has a satisfying conclusion, going to screen it on youtube first before I get this. if not then I'd rather give 10 dollars to whoever did marauder shields because THAT is what this game should have ended like, good old fashioned storytelling, not art.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, I asked about this on twitter and said people wanted a reunion and this has hurt them.  I was told there was no interest in discussing it further and if I didn't  like it to move on.  I don't twitter much and only went there to ask why one dev said it was a sign of hope and another said Shepard's dead.

I do have the twitter post and it's on its way to a friend who may or may not be of some help with this.   Corporate owners of companies don't like their customers being told to F off.

I fully support efforts to get them to release more DLC.  Some have contacted Mike Gamble to ask about this and others have gone right to EA with complaints.

Oh this is interesting.... And you are right. Corporate owners don't like their customers being told to F off.

It might do some good to follow up. It seems like some shake up might be in order.

This is going to bite them in the ass. I can guarantee it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

This.  People seem FINE with Bioware taking away their player agency as long as it does what they want it to do.

The solution to this is incredibly simple:

If your Shepard lived because you wanted them to live in High EMS Destroy, then they live.

If not, they die.

Bioware even stated there's NO canon ending.

I hate to say it, but this is like having unsatisfying sex.

[Jadebaby]

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

"A fine gift! You have my thanks."

oo oo I know this one...

Is it Aveline when you give her the Shield?

[Taboo]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I hate to say it, but this is like having unsatisfying sex.

Sex is like pizza. Even when it's bad it's pretty good.

[comrade gando]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, I asked about this on twitter and said people wanted a reunion and this has hurt them.  I was told there was no interest in discussing it further and if I didn't  like it to move on.  I don't twitter much and only went there to ask why one dev said it was a sign of hope and another said Shepard's dead.

I do have the twitter post and it's on its way to a friend who may or may not be of some help with this.   Corporate owners of companies don't like their customers being told to F off.

I fully support efforts to get them to release more DLC.  Some have contacted Mike Gamble to ask about this and others have gone right to EA with complaints.

Oh this is interesting.... And you are right. Corporate owners don't like their customers being told to F off.

It might do some good to follow up. It seems like some shake up might be in order.

This is going to bite them in the ass. I can guarantee it.

w8 a minute one of the dev's said to move on?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

"A fine gift! You have my thanks."

oo oo I know this one...

Is it Aveline when you give her the Shield?

Morrigan when you give her a gold necklace. But when you give her a mirror.....