221 réponses à ce sujet

[Kenshen]

maaaze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

maaaze wrote...

i am astonished how much you missed in this game.
How do you know that the Citadel is the Catalyst?...yes through the Prothean A.I. !...and how does it know that?...through the designers.

The different designers decided at one point that the Citadel was the necessery key component.

No. Vendetta says the Protheans determined this on their own. Guess what? The Protheans weren't the designers.

why the beam is set up that way...who knows...why should I care? Why is the human reaper hanging on four tubes...why not 12...why aren´t there any turrets...why does the plattform even takes them there...

It's an important element that's never answered satisfactorily.

why does saren try to strangle Shepard instead of shooting him/her...

Because Saren sees potential in Shepard and would rather convince them of the truth as he sees it.
Did you not pay attention to anything Saren says?

No. Vendetta says the Protheans determined this on their own. Guess what? The Protheans weren't the designers. 

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

here :
"it is difficult to say when...at some point Crucible plans where adapted to include the catalyst..."

[somewhere at the 30 seconds mark]

Both of you are saying the same thing yet are arguing that each is wrong.  Reminds me of my kids when they were little.

[Tealjaker94]

1. Design crucible to take organic from random place to random unknown location on the citadel
2.???????
3. PROFIT

[o Ventus]

legion999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Wait I thought it was just a power source?

It's very obviously a microphone. I mean, haven't you ever taken a look at it from cutscene view?

So we can beat Cerberus in the battle of the bands!
webkit-fake-url://BE50D9D3-C68B-422C-AE47-34E51D81D370/imagejpeg

I was thinking more in the area of rap battles.

Shepard is secretly Eminem

[Mazebook]

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

Funny, this argument began when you made a baseless statement that is nowhere referred to in the game.

Then finished up with a comment impling anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

everything i bring up is based on what is given you through the game...what he say´s is just not true...he is lying....and he does this repeatedly ...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

[RavenEyry]

maaaze wrote...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

And no one ever said otherwise, so they weren't lying.

[o Ventus]

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

Funny, this argument began when you made a baseless statement that is nowhere referred to in the game.

Then finished up with a comment impling anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

everything i bring up is based on what is given you through the game...what he say´s is just not true...he is lying....and he does this repeatedly ...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

You were the person who says the Crucible is what brings Shepard to the Catalyst. This is not "based on what is given you through the game" at all. Not in the slightest.

[D24O]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Don't you believe that just as Synthesis is a function of the Crucible, so is the lifting of the platform?  I always interpreted as the Crucible rewriting the Catalyst and more or less "forcing" it to lift Shepard up.  

At the very least, the Crucible makes it so that the Catalyst cant exercise its own will in creating a new solution.  The Crucible makes a new solution necessary in its "mind."  Hence the Crucible forces the Catalyst to life you up.  It needs someone else to choose.  Could've been TIM or Anderson on that lift for all it cared.

But there are no new solutions. Synthesis, he tried before, Control he tries now, Destroy supposedly results in synthetics killing everything, and Refuse just keeps the cycle going.

[Mazebook]

aryon69 wrote...


Both of you are saying the same thing yet are arguing that each is wrong.  Reminds me of my kids when they were little.

No we are not...he says that the designer did not incorperate the Citadel into the Crucible designs.
while ignoring that Vendetta just said that exact thing.

which is infuriating...because of the ignorance.

[Mazebook]

o Ventus wrote...

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

Funny, this argument began when you made a baseless statement that is nowhere referred to in the game.

Then finished up with a comment impling anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

everything i bring up is based on what is given you through the game...what he say´s is just not true...he is lying....and he does this repeatedly ...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

You were the person who says the Crucible is what brings Shepard to the Catalyst. This is not "based on what is given you through the game" at all. Not in the slightest.

You want prove besides common sense?

here

low ems Catalyst :

"WHY YOU ARE HERE?"

Modifié par maaaze, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:03 .

[CINCTuchanka]

D24O wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Don't you believe that just as Synthesis is a function of the Crucible, so is the lifting of the platform?  I always interpreted as the Crucible rewriting the Catalyst and more or less "forcing" it to lift Shepard up.  

At the very least, the Crucible makes it so that the Catalyst cant exercise its own will in creating a new solution.  The Crucible makes a new solution necessary in its "mind."  Hence the Crucible forces the Catalyst to life you up.  It needs someone else to choose.  Could've been TIM or Anderson on that lift for all it cared.

But there are no new solutions. Synthesis, he tried before, Control he tries now, Destroy supposedly results in synthetics killing everything, and Refuse just keeps the cycle going.

They are still all new solutions in that the current solution is for Catalyst controlled Reapers to kill everyone,  Yes, it tried Synthesis but it never worked, I would infer because it didn't have Shepard's magical space essence.  

So you basically have:

1.) Destroy- self determination, at great cost and with possible conflict in the future
2.) Control- Reapers used to determine the fate of organics and synthetics, to whatever degree Shepard chooses.
3.) Synthesis- New "understanding" brought about by organic/synthetic melding.  Reapers used to provide knowledge to all "living" things.

They are still new solutions as far as the Catalyst is concerned at that moment.

[Krunjar]

Symbolism is very often a somewhat vague matter of interpretation. It's true that the symbolism of that moment evokes thoughts of "transcendence" but depending on the interpretation this can and I believe does exclude the presence of some kind of "divine" being. One does not have to be Omnipotent to transcend something.

But this is a matter of opinion. As such arguing about it is fruitless. But in that opinion correlating transcendence and divinity seems somewhat arrogant. It kinda means that, assuming god exists you believe that there is only one "step" between you and it.

[Ryzaki]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

1. Design crucible to take organic from random place to random unknown location on the citadel
2.???????
3. PROFIT

The Crucible makes no f***ing sense. Nothing about it makes sense. Nothing about people throwing all their resources into it makes sense. It's just a giant WTF bag. And it's not even WTF in the good way so you can just ignore it's ridculousness.

[Taboo]

maaaze wrote...

You want prove besides common sense?

here

low ems Catalyst :

"WHY YOU ARE HERE?"

You are aware of what context and inflection means correct?

[o Ventus]

maaaze wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

Funny, this argument began when you made a baseless statement that is nowhere referred to in the game.

Then finished up with a comment impling anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

everything i bring up is based on what is given you through the game...what he say´s is just not true...he is lying....and he does this repeatedly ...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

You were the person who says the Crucible is what brings Shepard to the Catalyst. This is not "based on what is given you through the game" at all. Not in the slightest.

You want prove besides common sense?

here

low ems Catalyst :

"WHY YOU ARE HERE?"

It isn't very common sense if you're the only one who thought of it. In retrospect, it makes you look like you're really reaching.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Symbolism connects with a theme. It's useless to analyze symbolism in this game because the writers have no idea what the central themes are, and they haven't known for the entire span of the trilogy apparently.

Nice attempt, but you're wasting your time because the writing is so broken.

[D24O]

CINCTuchanka wrote...
They are still all new solutions in that the current solution is for Catalyst controlled Reapers to kill everyone,  Yes, it tried Synthesis but it never worked, I would infer because it didn't have Shepard's magical space essence.  

So you basically have:

1.) Destroy- self determination, at great cost and with possible conflict in the future
2.) Control- Reapers used to determine the fate of organics and synthetics, to whatever degree Shepard chooses.
3.) Synthesis- New "understanding" brought about by organic/synthetic melding.  Reapers used to provide knowledge to all "living" things.

They are still new solutions as far as the Catalyst is concerned at that moment.

I wouldn't say new so much as "other soultuons" that hopefully work out better due to Shepard's influence drowning out the Catalyst's influence.

[CINCTuchanka]

Krunjar wrote...

Symbolism is very often a somewhat vague matter of interpretation. It's true that the symbolism of that moment evokes thoughts of "transcendence" but depending on the interpretation this can and I believe does exclude the presence of some kind of "divine" being. One does not have to be Omnipotent to transcend something.

But this is a matter of opinion. As such arguing about it is fruitless. But in that opinion correlating transcendence and divinity seems somewhat arrogant. It kinda means that, assuming god exists you believe that there is only one "step" between you and it.

To be fair, this is also the final act of the entire series.  It would make sense to have Shepard "transcend" in some way.  

I would like to note the irony that the Mass Effect series tends to downplay religious beliefs as archaic.  And then it turns out there was a "God" and it was killing everyone because it was seriously crazy....

And then you shoot a tube and blow it up.

No one tell Ash...

[Tritium315]

I think it's symbolic of getting shot by a giant laser beam and being tired as ****.

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't think this has been discussed before, and only now do I feel detached enough to discuss it without going on an incoherent rant.

Shepard's collapse at the control panel on the Citadel is, by a very big margin, my most hated moment in the game. And here is why: this moment not only symbolizes that Shepard can't succeed without help, no, combined with the elevator lift initiated by the Catalyst it symbolizes that he needs help by a god-like presence. I am not averse to Shepard needing help. I would have accepted help by any human, turian, geth, asari etc.. etc..., even the Illusive Man. But I absolutely *hate* the suggestion that "divine" help is needed to enact a solution.

Of course I can interpret the Catalyst in a different way, and I do. I refuse to grant it the authority the symbolism suggests, as I would never grant anyone or anything such authority, but nonetheless the symbolism is there and to me it was pretty blatant. If anything, this moment alone came close to make Mass Effect - the whole trilogy - "not my story".

I would like to see how others think about this moment. Please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with the Catalyst's reasoning and the options it presents, which I can accept.  

Well, as a Control Supporter I might surprise you... I believe that anything in the end (including Control), can't be done without the original Catalist's approval. It completely controls the situation, but Shepard's previous actions convinced the original Catalist that its "solution" was wrong. Victory was not about the Crucible itself, but about conviccing the original Catalist. We knew nothing about the Catalist till the very end, but it's clearly watched over us carefully...

I like one short description of this made my another Control fan:
 - Crucible is the Testing Ground.
 - Catalist is the Gate Keeper.
 - Shepard and the entire Galactic Civilization have to pass the test in order to convince the Gate Keeper to open the Gates.

...There was a discussion about that in Control support thread by the way

Modifié par Seival, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:22 .

[Mazebook]

o Ventus wrote...

maaaze wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

okay... i am giving up on you again because you making stuff up that is just not true...and i am sick and tiered of your baseless statement that are nowhere represented in the game.

Funny, this argument began when you made a baseless statement that is nowhere referred to in the game.

Then finished up with a comment impling anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

everything i bring up is based on what is given you through the game...what he say´s is just not true...he is lying....and he does this repeatedly ...

VENDETTA says that the incorperating of the citadel was decided by a cycle before them.

that is the thruth.

You were the person who says the Crucible is what brings Shepard to the Catalyst. This is not "based on what is given you through the game" at all. Not in the slightest.

You want prove besides common sense?

here

low ems Catalyst :

"WHY YOU ARE HERE?"

It isn't very common sense if you're the only one who thought of it. In retrospect, it makes you look like you're really reaching.

sorry that your little "let´s bash bioware because we don´t understand the ending" circle did not thought about the obviouse.

it says little about if it is common sense...it says more about you...and why you did not like the ending.

[Kenshen]

maaaze wrote...

aryon69 wrote...


Both of you are saying the same thing yet are arguing that each is wrong.  Reminds me of my kids when they were little.

No we are not...he says that the designer did not incorperate the Citadel into the Crucible designs.
while ignoring that Vendetta just said that exact thing.

which is infuriating...because of the ignorance.

At first it wasn't.  Vendetta says it is not sure when the crucible designs were incorporated to include the Citadel.  I am not sure who you mean when you say designer.  Since the thing had never worked before, one could say that each cycle was a designer since each added too it.

[Taboo]

maaaze wrote...

sorry that your little "let´s bash bioware because we don´t understand the ending" circle did not thought about the obviouse.

it says little about if it is common sense...it says more about you...and why you did not like the ending.

Being a dogbot isn't helping anyone.

This is not something that is an exercise in Lynchian oneirism.

This is was a science fiction story, that fit well withing the suspension of disbelief motif.

If you'd like to discuss high art speculative Science Fiction I would suggest renting the twin Tarkovsky films, Solaris and Stalker.

If you won't do that, I would suggest finding better criticisms than non sequitors.

[Mazebook]

aryon69 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

aryon69 wrote...


Both of you are saying the same thing yet are arguing that each is wrong.  Reminds me of my kids when they were little.

No we are not...he says that the designer did not incorperate the Citadel into the Crucible designs.
while ignoring that Vendetta just said that exact thing.

which is infuriating...because of the ignorance.

At first it wasn't.  Vendetta says it is not sure when the crucible designs were incorporated to include the Citadel.  I am not sure who you mean when you say designer.  Since the thing had never worked before, one could say that each cycle was a designer since each added too it.

Yes...but the angry one was claiming that the different designers did not know what would function as the catalyst and that it was the protheans who determend that after the fact...that was what the arguement was about.

you are fully correct with what you wrote.

[Applepie_Svk]

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

for the last time ...the crucible lifts him up...not the catalyst!

why is that so hard to understand?

The crucible activates a lift in one part of the citadel that takes you to another part of the citadel? How odd.

Better part is that lift is right where Shepard fall on floor ... such a coincidence:wizard:

Seival wrote...

Well, as a Control Supporter I might surprise you... I believe that anything in the end (including Control), can't be done without the original Catalist's approval. It completely controls the situation, but Shepard's previous actions convinced the original Catalist that its "solution" was wrong. Victory was not about the Crucible itself, but about conviccing the original Catalist. We knew nothing about the Catalist till the very end, but it's clearly watched over us carefully...

I like one short description of this made my another Control fan:
 - Crucible is the Testing Ground.
 - Catalist is the Gate Keeper.
 - Shepard and the entire Galactic Civilization have to pass the test in order to convince the Gate Keeper to open the Gates.

...There was a discussion about that in Control support thread by the way

 

Such a great exam, genocide of few thousand of civilizations, and Shepard first who pass - tehe. Gate Keeper negate his own conclusions so many times than there is no way to believe him....

What is funny - Gate Keeper said that Crucible made new possibilities - but all three choices were built on Citadel and not on the Crucible so he is leading you into trap.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I didn't have a problem with that scene, and I don't think it symbolizes the need for help from some God-like being or that Shepard couldn't pull things off without divine intervention. 

 

So from now is Catalyst also God ... what a pleasure:wizard:

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I didn't have a problem with that scene, and I don't think it symbolizes the need for help from some God-like being or that Shepard couldn't pull things off without divine intervention. I may be a Synthesis supporter, but I really disagree with this control panel thing.

All the collapse does is show that Shepard, no matter how heroic, is a human being and a mortal just like everyone else - someone who can be hurt and bleed and die and possibly fail. If it symbolizes anything, it's that Shepard has the strength of will to hang on just a bit longer - long enough to save people's lives (or to pointlessly kill everyone if they're a Refuser).

Personally, I'd go with Shepard lasting that long after suffering grievous injuries as a triumph of the human spirit.