221 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Carlthestrange wrote...

How did you guess my exact facial expression I have whenever someone uses that meme? Are you a wizard?

[Taboo]

andy69156915 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
ARRRRRRT.

This remark got old before it even became a meme. The use of it is annoying at this point. It's just what people say when they don't have a single unique thought in their head that they can call their own, so they say something to fit in with the crowd. It's stupid.

No, I uh, work with artists for a living.

It's an inside joke between myself and a few others on the forum.

But thanks for generalizing.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Being part of him does not imply that he has control over it. as much you have no control over your heartbeat.

This is further disproven by 2 statement:

"you being here, the first organic ever, proves my solution won´t work anymore" this statement makes no sense if the catalyst himself brought him there.

"Why are you here ?" the catalyst himself is suprised that Shaperd did make it to the crucible...it makes no sense for him to ask him that question if he himself brought him there.

As to the first point, I see that as his acknowledgment that since the Organics are advancing and passing on knowledge from cycle to cycle, and also of (potentially) us being "ready" for syntheiss. After all, we are more resoursful than he gave us credit, and the reapers are apparently stagnanr. So he calls us up to negotiate. The second, he knows we're here to stop the reapers, but since he has options to give us, he doesn't know how we will do It's a preface to him presenting options.

Edit, It's all up to speculation whether the shifting Citadel was him or not, It seems logical to me that he could move it, and since we're supposadely the first organic there, it seems far fetched that the designers of that featured would've known what they're doing. 

As to the first point, I see that as his acknowledgment that since the Organics are advancing and passing on knowledge from cycle to cycle, and also of (potentially) us being "ready" for syntheiss. After all, we are more resoursful than he gave us credit, and the reapers are apparently stagnanr. So he calls us up to negotiate. The second, he knows we're here to stop the reapers, but since he has options to give us, he doesn't know how we will do It's a preface to him presenting options. 

This arguement falls apart if you watch the low ems ending. It is really interesting what it can tell us about the capabilities of the catalyst

low ems ending destroy

and since we're supposadely the first organic there, it seems far fetched that the designers of that featured would've known what they're doing. 

It seems to me the designer knew where you have to be to release the energy of the crucible...where in relation to the citadel you have to be...and where you have to be to open it´s arms.

I don´t think it is far fetched...the designs where just very good and deliberate. 

btw. "the first organic ever"...is not about the actual place he is in...it is about the implication that he now can release the energy from where he is standing. 

[Carlthestrange]

andy69156915 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

How did you guess my exact facial expression I have whenever someone uses that meme? Are you a wizard?

Nope. I am a Sorceress.

[FlamingBoy]

I will just say the game is not that deep, just bad writing

[andy6915]

Taboo-XX wrote...
No, I uh, work with artists for a living.

It's an inside joke between myself and a few others on the forum.

But thanks for generalizing.

Inside joke? I've seen literally dozens of different posters use that meme, and it's used several times a thread (depending on the thread size) these days. If it was just a rare thing by a few posters, I wouldn't care... But it isn't.

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

This arguement falls apart if you watch the low ems ending. It is really interesting what it can tell us about the capabilities of the catalyst

low ems ending destroy

It seems to me the designer knew where you have to be to release the energy of the crucible...where in relation to the citadel you have to be...and where you have to be to open it´s arms.

I don´t think it is far fetched...the designs where just very good and deliberate. 

btw. "the first organic ever"...is not about the actual place he is in...it is about the implication that he now can release the energy from where he is standing. 

Well I can't say the video has convinced me otherwise, hearing his dialogue int he end "The crucible changed me, created new possibilities" implies to me that the 3 choices have their source from him, and with the crucible he recognises that eventually the reapers will be destroyed unless he acts to try to open negotiations. 

Although you make a good point about the "first organic ever" line. While I agree you have a valid interpertation, I still don't think that with him being the Citadel (and more) it's a stretch to think that he realises the end could be near so he wants to try to end the Reaper cycle on terms more favorable to him.

[D24O]

andy69156915 wrote...

Inside joke? I've seen literally dozens of different posters use that meme, and it's used several times a thread (depending on the thread size) these days. If it was just a rare thing by a few posters, I wouldn't care... But it isn't.

Out of context yes, but it's become something of a catch phrase, especially the over exaggerated manner in which he uses it. In fact you could even take it as a toung in cheek regonition of those that do use it a lot.

[Taboo]

andy69156915 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
No, I uh, work with artists for a living.

It's an inside joke between myself and a few others on the forum.

But thanks for generalizing.

Inside joke? I've seen literally dozens of different posters use that meme, and it's used several times a thread (depending on the thread size) these days. If it was just a rare thing by a few posters, I wouldn't care... But it isn't.

Yes, it is.

ARRRRRRRRT is the joke. Pay attention and you'll see it.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

This arguement falls apart if you watch the low ems ending. It is really interesting what it can tell us about the capabilities of the catalyst

low ems ending destroy

It seems to me the designer knew where you have to be to release the energy of the crucible...where in relation to the citadel you have to be...and where you have to be to open it´s arms.

I don´t think it is far fetched...the designs where just very good and deliberate. 

btw. "the first organic ever"...is not about the actual place he is in...it is about the implication that he now can release the energy from where he is standing. 

Well I can't say the video has convinced me otherwise, hearing his dialogue int he end "The crucible changed me, created new possibilities" implies to me that the 3 choices have their source from him, and with the crucible he recognises that eventually the reapers will be destroyed unless he acts to try to open negotiations. 

Although you make a good point about the "first organic ever" line. While I agree you have a valid interpertation, I still don't think that with him being the Citadel (and more) it's a stretch to think that he realises the end could be near so he wants to try to end the Reaper cycle on terms more favorable to him.

Well I can't say the video has convinced me otherwise, hearing his dialogue int he end "The crucible changed me, created new possibilities" implies to me that the 3 choices have their source from him, and with the crucible he recognises that eventually the reapers will be destroyed unless he acts to try to open negotiations. 

but there is nothing to negotiate. he simply states what the crucible will do...he did not create these choises. he has no power. he himself can not stop shaperd.

The crucible changed me...he now knows that the reapers are no longer the pinacle of evolution. they are defeatable. which makes their existance without porpose. The Solution won´t last.

the new possibilities emerge from the fact that his calculations were off. Organics won´t be completly wiped out by synthetics even when they are surpassed.

Organics are more resourceful. Organics can built the crucible and use it.

The catalyst recognices that organics are not doomed. that the struggle will be eternal.

That is why he is changed...the basics on how he viewed the world has changed.

The crucible enables shaperd. not the catalyst..
the catalyst can´t do anything against Shaperds will.
He knows the end is near.
The only reason he is there is to give Shaperd the context of what he is about to do.
He has no power. he has no purpose.
If the energy is released ether by control or destroy.

Modifié par maaaze, 25 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[SackofCat]

Why would The writers have Shepard collapse like that? S/he loses consciousness before being flown upwards into a bright white light. Then Shepard wakes in a surreal setting to speak to an ancient, semi-omniscient, and semi-omnipotent being that presents supernatural options to fundamentally change an entire galaxy. At least catakid didn't say it created the universe (though it does imply Shepard exists by it's grace.

[Mazebook]

SackofCat wrote...

Why would The writers have Shepard collapse like that? S/he loses consciousness before being flown upwards into a bright white light. Then Shepard wakes in a surreal setting to speak to an ancient, semi-omniscient, and semi-omnipotent being that presents supernatural options to fundamentally change an entire galaxy. At least catakid didn't say it created the universe (though it does imply Shepard exists by it's grace.

though it does imply Shepard exists by it's grace. 

can you back up this claim?

[SackofCat]

Catalystboy implied that were it not for it's intervention, synthetics would have wiped out organic life a long time ago.

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

but there is nothing to negotiate. he simply states what the crucible will do...he did not create these choises. he has no power. he himself can not stop shaperd.

The crucible changed me...he now knows that the reapers are no longer the pinacle of evolution. they are defeatable. which makes their existance without porpose. The Solution won´t last.

the new possibilities emerge from the fact that his calculations were off. Organics won´t be completly wiped out by synthetics even when they are surpassed.

Organics are more resourceful. Organics can built the crucible and use it.

The catalyst recognices that organics are not doomed. that the struggle will be eternal.

That is why he is changed...the basics on how he viewed the world has changed.

The crucible enables shaperd. not the catalyst..
the catalyst can´t do anything against Shaperds will.
He knows the end is near.
The only reason he is there is to give Shaperd the context of what he is about to do.
He has no power. he has no purpose.
If the energy is released ether by control or destroy.

Which is why he brings Shepard up. he's negotiating. He has a mission, to stop synthetics from destroying all organic life. He recognises that the cycles are getting more advamced, and will soon be able to defeat him in some way (refusal ending). The variables have been altered, and the crucible has changed HIM. That means to me that the choices originate from him, and he's trying to get concesions from Shepard, who really is the catalyst of the end, not the kid, by trying to convince him to act more in accordance with fufilling his directive. He hoped to have someone who he can defeat there to talk with, because soon enough he won't be in a position of superority. So from his standpoint it's better to try to talk it out than lose to the next cycle with no say as he would in Refuse.

[SackofCat]

Synthetics... Organics' flawed creation of artificial life... Consequences of playing god...

[SackofCat]

Who is being being implied to be the "created" anyway? Is the creation of artificial life an act of rebellion against a creator?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ZLurps wrote...

<and I snipped a bunch of stuff>

Do you remember Walters interview before ME3 launch where he said he was tired to franchise and liked to do something else? I sort of respected him for being so honest, it's very rare at these days that publishers let their staff speak so openly, but there was also question in my mind, if he had what it takes at the first place, but I digress.

For me there are just too many odd pieces out there that I could dismiss those for being accidents and I'm not at all convinced that ending was even supposed to make sense as "in ME universe".

I'm not sure if it is supposed to make sense at all, but what we have is something that could be seen as immature sexual symbolism, emotional sterility that Taboo pointed out earlier and sort of sado-masochistic relationship of story / player. Depending how people interpret the Crusible it could be seen as satisfying the Catalyst. etc.

I think it goes deeper than the sado-masochistic relationship with the player and catalyst. It is quite sick. See below.

I have played game where protagonist has not only died in the ending (and there's no way around it) but turned out to be used by antagonist resulting also death of every person who helped protagonist during the journey. That weren't what I expected, but in comparison, last stages of ME3 were actually a bit disturbing.

For me issue isn't Shepard dying, dark age scenario was bitter, I liked the universe, but for me the problem is how these things are delivered. I wish I could see something like an attemt to remake ending of Space Odyssey 2001 because something like that could have been done with the elements they had, but I don't see that attempt. I wish I could see deep moral pondering in choises we have, but I see just superficial attempt to look intellectual. Again, with material they had, pieces for creating such set up were there.

EDIT/ Grammar and stuff, I'm tired.

Yes, that's the interview. I didn't see it before the release of the game. If I did, I wouldn't have gotten the game. It's the one when asked about if there was going to be any post ending DLC and he said something like "what's the point? It's a wasteland." or something like that.

The interview flew under the radar. If it hadn't, I seriously doubt the sales would have been like they were. It flew way under the pregame hype that was going on. I know I wouldn't have bought the game.

The point is that they could have at least given the thing a decent burial for the hard core fans of the series, especially given all the hype they were doing. This was a bait and switch.

The "symbolism" crap going on was disturbing. I'm in my late 50s. I read Poe before bed when I was a kid. I used to read horror novels before going to sleep. Nothing really bothers me. This ending disturbed me. I didn't sleep well. It was a psychological thing that was going on. Mind you that I picked "destroy" and there were no geth around in my ending to die -- the Quarians had taken care of that because Legion had died in ME2 (not high enough paragon/renegade), so I hadn't committed genocide, and I hadn't done Arrival with this character.

It was the total feeling of emptiness. I guess it was because I made the choices I would make in those situations throughout the entire series. I had put too much of me into the character. They took that away, and they did psycholocally in a very brutal manner. You had no control over your character anymore from the second that laser blast hit 20 m in front of you. At that point it became Mac's character, not yours.

The problem with the ending was that we as the player still had hope. This is about more than just Shepard's collapse. That's a huge psychological blow. This is about breaking a player. This is non-consensual sado-masochism. That is why this ending is such a mind f***. That is why I still hate it with a passion, and will always hate it. It broke the unwritten contract between player and game writer.

It was like you were living someone else's twisted dream. I know they didn't develop Anderson much, but you know you can wrap your brain around stuff and okay you served under this guy for years, and he was your mentor. He helped you get over Torfan (or Akuze) and helped you grow into a real leader. And you just shot him because you had absolutely no control over your character, because the writer said you had to just to demonstrate The Illusive Man's power. So I put a bullet in TIM, and should have finished him off like Liara did those Cerberus troops but no such option. And then Anderson died next to you, and he didn't blame you at all. He said "You did good, child. You did good." And then that collapse. I thought that was the end. That I have to say was ****ing cruel. It was sadistic.

But not as sadistic as what was to come. Three choices: do what you just fought against, do what the bastard catalyst wants, or destroy the reapers. But nothing matters anyway because all the mass relays got destroyed. You died. The Normandy got stranded on some world in the ass end of nowhere. And call this "your choices matter ending". No wonder I couldn't sleep. It was like being mentally tortured for over an hour. This is not art. This is cruelty.

Then after pressure they yield to give us this EC which "explained" to us peons that which we already understood. The EC didn't make it better. You still get no real closure because of "art."

And this is the way to end a series, and this is the way to treat people. Hype a story. Hype a game by saying "all your choices matter" and go into detail about them, then switch the hype with a product like this. The ending is still **** and is the most sadistic thing I've ever played in a video game.

Walters and Hudson took the coward's way out with slash and burn, and just toyed with the player at the end. They could have given a good solid ending that left the player with a "phew, we won" to a "fk yeah! we won!!!", hell even with an epilogue like Gears 3 and as corny as it may seem just Shepard and LI staring out together at the sunrise (it's a new day), and said in the dump to screen -- "This is the end of the Mass Effect series, or the end of Commander Shepard's story. We hope you enjoyed it. We have some additional content planned for the game and hope you come back to enjoy that as well." I'll take corny over what we got any day.

The way it is now skip the single player for Mass Effect 3. Just go play the multi-player in this one.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

but there is nothing to negotiate. he simply states what the crucible will do...he did not create these choises. he has no power. he himself can not stop shaperd.

The crucible changed me...he now knows that the reapers are no longer the pinacle of evolution. they are defeatable. which makes their existance without porpose. The Solution won´t last.

the new possibilities emerge from the fact that his calculations were off. Organics won´t be completly wiped out by synthetics even when they are surpassed.

Organics are more resourceful. Organics can built the crucible and use it.

The catalyst recognices that organics are not doomed. that the struggle will be eternal.

That is why he is changed...the basics on how he viewed the world has changed.

The crucible enables shaperd. not the catalyst..
the catalyst can´t do anything against Shaperds will.
He knows the end is near.
The only reason he is there is to give Shaperd the context of what he is about to do.
He has no power. he has no purpose.
If the energy is released ether by control or destroy.

Which is why he brings Shepard up. he's negotiating. He has a mission, to stop synthetics from destroying all organic life. He recognises that the cycles are getting more advamced, and will soon be able to defeat him in some way (refusal ending). The variables have been altered, and the crucible has changed HIM. That means to me that the choices originate from him, and he's trying to get concesions from Shepard, who really is the catalyst of the end, not the kid, by trying to convince him to act more in accordance with fufilling his directive. He hoped to have someone who he can defeat there to talk with, because soon enough he won't be in a position of superority. So from his standpoint it's better to try to talk it out than lose to the next cycle with no say as he would in Refuse.

Which is why he brings Shepard up. he's negotiating.  

but there is nothing to negotiate if destroy is the only option. He is just saying what the consequences will be.
It makes no sense bringing him up just to convince him not to destroy them. it is like opening the sealed door for the killer only to convince him not to kill him. which is why he does not bring him up. the crucible does.

and the crucible has changed HIM. That means to me that the choices originate from him,  

no there is no connection of what the crucible can do and what the catalyst wants. destroy brings him nothing. he does not like the idea of being exchanged by shaperd (control).

Synthesis is the only solution he agrees with...yes...but shaperd will always stand before the crucible even if synthesis is not possible.

He hoped to have someone who he can defeat there to talk with, because soon enough he won't be in a position of superority.  

Yes,
that is why he chose to talk to shaperd...to give him context.

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

but there is nothing to negotiate if destroy is the only option. He is just saying what the consequences will be.
It makes no sense bringing him up just to convince him not to destroy them. it is like opening the sealed door for the killer only to convince him not to kill him. which is why he does not bring him up. the crucible does.

no there is no connection of what the crucible can do and what the catalyst wants. destroy brings him nothing. he does not like the idea of being exchanged by shaperd (control).

Synthesis is the only solution he agrees with...yes...but shaperd will always stand before the crucible even if synthesis is not possible.

Putting it that way, yeah you're right, the Elevator doe sbring Shepard to the dais, although falling helpless until the deus speaks to him and gives him options still carries the unpleasant symbolism in the OP.

But I don't agree that there is no connection. The crucible is a power source for functions already installed onto the Citadel. The more complete the Crucible, th emore power it provides, refining and allowing the Citadel to target more speciffically, which is why at higher EMS the Earth isn't destroyed and Synthesis has such a specific ability to target the subatmoic particles of everything in the Galaxy. The choices were there, all of which he tries, but failed because he didn't have enough power, but the Cricuble comes into play, and allows him to realize his potential.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

but there is nothing to negotiate if destroy is the only option. He is just saying what the consequences will be.
It makes no sense bringing him up just to convince him not to destroy them. it is like opening the sealed door for the killer only to convince him not to kill him. which is why he does not bring him up. the crucible does.

no there is no connection of what the crucible can do and what the catalyst wants. destroy brings him nothing. he does not like the idea of being exchanged by shaperd (control).

Synthesis is the only solution he agrees with...yes...but shaperd will always stand before the crucible even if synthesis is not possible.

Putting it that way, yeah you're right, the Elevator doe sbring Shepard to the dais, although falling helpless until the deus speaks to him and gives him options still carries the unpleasant symbolism in the OP.

But I don't agree that there is no connection. The crucible is a power source for functions already installed onto the Citadel. The more complete the Crucible, th emore power it provides, refining and allowing the Citadel to target more speciffically, which is why at higher EMS the Earth isn't destroyed and Synthesis has such a specific ability to target the subatmoic particles of everything in the Galaxy. The choices were there, all of which he tries, but failed because he didn't have enough power, but the Cricuble comes into play, and allows him to realize his potential.

Putting it that way, yeah you're right, the Elevator doe sbring Shepard to the dais, although falling helpless until the deus speaks to him and gives him options still carries the unpleasant symbolism in the OP. 

Shaperd is about to stand up even before the catalyst speaks to him...he is just gathering his strenght.

Once again...he does not give him the options...the options are there, the moment the crucible docks.
There is nothing the Catalyst adds other than giving the idea for synthesis.

The symbolism changes completly if you factor in that the crucible lifts shaperd up.
Now through the intellegence and sacrifice of this cycle and all the Cycles before.
Shaperd is now finally able to defeat the reapers...something that seemed impossible...
thanks to all what he did and everybody else that helped him.

the lift represents the combined strenght of everyone who opposed the reapers.

The choices were there, all of which he tries, but failed because he didn't have enough power, but the Cricuble comes into play, and allows him to realize his potential. 

He did not try do destroy all synthetics nor did he search for a replacement for himself.
In case of Synthesis you are right.

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

Shaperd is about to stand up even before the catalyst speaks to him...he is just gathering his strenght.

Once again...he does not give him the options...the options are there, the moment the crucible docks.
There is nothing the Catalyst adds other than giving the idea for synthesis.

The symbolism changes completly if you factor in that the crucible lifts shaperd up.
Now through the intellegence and sacrifice of this cycle and all the Cycles before.
Shaperd is now finally able to defeat the reapers...something that seemed impossible...
thanks to all what he did and everybody else that helped him.

the lift represents the combined strenght of everyone who opposed the reapers.

He did not try do destroy all synthetics nor did he search for a replacement for himself.
In case of Synthesis you are right.

First point, If Shepard doesn't have to operate through the Catalyst's paradigm, then yes that symbolism works, but he's broken, defeated, and rolls over to work within the reaper solution, and if he doesn't, if he has the gall to think the galaxy can self determine, make its own fate, he's dead. 

And Control is happening right then, Catalyst controls the reapers. He also destroys synthetics, so that was in effect as well. All fail, but in concept they're ther,e they ar ejust augmented by the Crucible, th epower source, and the Catalyst needs Shepard to put his solutions into effect.

[SackofCat]

Maaze,
Your take on the symbolism does fit the story more. My impression is that the writers intended to leave it vague and that the symbolism the OPer and others have noted was intended. Otherwise, certain elements seem to be out of place.

[SackofCat]

By "fit the story" I mean thematically.

[D24O]

SackofCat wrote...

By "fit the story" I mean thematically.

I understand what maze is saying, it was supposed ot come across as more hopeful, but having the Catalyst be th esource of the options as well as be the avatar of the reapers and the ultimate evil of the galaxy ruins the message for a number of people. If they had made him a VI for the original cycle that got knocked out by the reapers, only now to be reactivated, then the options would be free from the taint of acquescing to our enemies whims. He could've fufilled the Vigil esque function I believe they intended him to serve, plus it would have the nice touch of representing us coming full circle (along with the TIM scene being very similar to Daren) but that detail adds some unfortunate implications to his character.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Shaperd is about to stand up even before the catalyst speaks to him...he is just gathering his strenght.

Once again...he does not give him the options...the options are there, the moment the crucible docks.
There is nothing the Catalyst adds other than giving the idea for synthesis.

The symbolism changes completly if you factor in that the crucible lifts shaperd up.
Now through the intellegence and sacrifice of this cycle and all the Cycles before.
Shaperd is now finally able to defeat the reapers...something that seemed impossible...
thanks to all what he did and everybody else that helped him.

the lift represents the combined strenght of everyone who opposed the reapers.

He did not try do destroy all synthetics nor did he search for a replacement for himself.
In case of Synthesis you are right.

First point, If Shepard doesn't have to operate through the Catalyst's paradigm, then yes that symbolism works, but he's broken, defeated, and rolls over to work within the reaper solution, and if he doesn't, if he has the gall to think the galaxy can self determine, make its own fate, he's dead. 

And Control is happening right then, Catalyst controls the reapers. He also destroys synthetics, so that was in effect as well. All fail, but in concept they're ther,e they ar ejust augmented by the Crucible, th epower source, and the Catalyst needs Shepard to put his solutions into effect.

but he's broken, defeated, and rolls over to work within the reaper solution, and if he doesn't, if he has the gall to think the galaxy can self determine, make its own fate, he's dead.  

he is broken...but clearly not defeated... that the crucible will target all synthetics is not the fault of the Catalyst...
it is a flaw of the Crucible...the catalyst even says that this is not a solution to his problem...that the problem will still exist...

so how exactly is the destroy option within the reaper solution?

And Control is happening right then, Catalyst controls the reapers. He also destroys synthetics, 

no he combines them with his creators in reaper form. a solution Shaperd opposes. An Shaperd A.I. has free will to do what he thinks is right. The Catalyst never had free will. He was constructed to find a solution. that was all he was and can be. Shaperd´s A.I. is free to look after of what he values.

But I think we are running in circles now.
I still don´t understand how you reason that the Catalyst would design Solutions that don´t solve his problem and then present them to shaperd. it makes no sense. it makes only sense when the options were designed by the crucible designers.