221 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

It symbolizes that we need a new protagonist. Thus, GlowBoy is brought in to finish the game for us. He pokes his head in, sees Shepard suffering from "The writers hate me" and then lifts him up, dusts him off, answers some questions, then helpfully wraps the new and old plot up all by himself. He had so much time we made three. He just asks you to pick one. If you refuse, he gets angry and leaves you to die. That's it.

[Ryzaki]

LOL

Sadly GlowBoy was already the antagonist. Thus he became both and thus the ending blew chunks

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...
he is broken...but clearly not defeated... that the crucible will target all synthetics is not the fault of the Catalyst...
it is a flaw of the Crucible...the catalyst even says that this is not a solution to his problem...that the problem will still exist...

so how exactly is the destroy option within the reaper solution?

no he combines them with his creators in reaper form. a solution Shaperd opposes. An Shaperd A.I. has free will to do what he thinks is right. The Catalyst never had free will. He was constructed to find a solution. that was all he was and can be. Shaperd´s A.I. is free to look after of what he values.

But I think we are running in circles now.
I still don´t understand how you reason that the Catalyst would design Solutions that don´t solve his problem and then present them to shaperd. it makes no sense. it makes only sense when the options were designed by the crucible designers.

Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution. Like I said, the options are not exactly what the reapers have or want to do, they are amplified, and ultimately much more effective versions of the reapers solutions, which is whare I have a problem with the end sequence. You end up playing within the reaper paradigm, giving in to the bad guy, and everything turns out hunky dory, hell taking his preferred route ends up in the "happiest" ending.  But if you don't Shep dies, the Catalyst seems to put the reapers into overdrive, and they finish you off. So you are defeated and at the marcy of the Reapers.

As for control, I agree, Shepalyst is no tthe Catalyst, like I said earlier, its an amplified version of what's going on, something that if headcanonned, ends up working. But my problem still is that its working within the reaper paradigm. Having the Catalyst be the Reaper conctiousness taints the choices. 

[MegaSovereign]

I liked the Control ending. I liked how Shepard had to sacrifice himself to save everyone.

I liked how he became the galaxy's shield.

EDIT:

I agree with D24O though. The endings felt like my enemy was giving me an ultimatum. But I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. From the start of the series the Reapers were these OP killing machines.  If we were given an ending where the galactic force wins through the power of friendship, it would have cheapened the Reapers.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

D24O wrote...

Moar spekulationz.

Why did I read that in Ezio's voice? :/

[Ericus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I liked the Control ending. I liked how Shepard had to sacrifice himself to save everyone.

I liked how he became the galaxy's shield.

EDIT:

I agree with D24O though. The endings felt like my enemy was giving me an ultimatum. But I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. From the start of the series the Reapers were these OP killing machines.  If we were given an ending where the galactic force wins through the power of friendship, it would have cheapened the Reapers.

Well said.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...
he is broken...but clearly not defeated... that the crucible will target all synthetics is not the fault of the Catalyst...
it is a flaw of the Crucible...the catalyst even says that this is not a solution to his problem...that the problem will still exist...

so how exactly is the destroy option within the reaper solution?

no he combines them with his creators in reaper form. a solution Shaperd opposes. An Shaperd A.I. has free will to do what he thinks is right. The Catalyst never had free will. He was constructed to find a solution. that was all he was and can be. Shaperd´s A.I. is free to look after of what he values.

But I think we are running in circles now.
I still don´t understand how you reason that the Catalyst would design Solutions that don´t solve his problem and then present them to shaperd. it makes no sense. it makes only sense when the options were designed by the crucible designers.

Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution. Like I said, the options are not exactly what the reapers have or want to do, they are amplified, and ultimately much more effective versions of the reapers solutions, which is whare I have a problem with the end sequence. You end up playing within the reaper paradigm, giving in to the bad guy, and everything turns out hunky dory, hell taking his preferred route ends up in the "happiest" ending.  But if you don't Shep dies, the Catalyst seems to put the reapers into overdrive, and they finish you off. So you are defeated and at the marcy of the Reapers.

As for control, I agree, Shepalyst is no tthe Catalyst, like I said earlier, its an amplified version of what's going on, something that if headcanonned, ends up working. But my problem still is that its working within the reaper paradigm. Having the Catalyst be the Reaper conctiousness taints the choices. 

Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution.  

No it is not...taking away individuality and combining both into one controlled Hive mind is the important part to the reaper solution. Reseting the Galaxy so they don´t evolve passed the point of total destruction is the important part.

Both are not the case anymore in the destroy ending..."your children will create new synthetics" which will lead to new conflict.

destroy does not represent the reaper solution. It represents a way to get rid of the reaper thread once and fo all.

You end up playing within the reaper paradigm, giving in to the bad guy,  

you doing that if you refuse to take action...you are saying the reapers can not be defeated...
because Shaperd does not like the weapon that many cycles built to destroy the reapers

 So you are defeated and at the marcy of the Reapers. 

No, you are defeated because you won´t take action when you had the chance. On a misguided attempt to make a pointless stand against the weapon that the organics created.

As for control, I agree, Shepalyst is no tthe Catalyst, like I said earlier, its an amplified version of what's going on, something that if headcanonned, ends up working. But my problem still is that its working within the reaper paradigm.  

Like I said, you will have to trust Shaperds values. He repurposes the reapers to do what he thinks is right. He uses them to rebuild and help the people instead of destroing and eradicating their existance.

How exactly does this play into the the catalyst venture?How exactly does this amplify the reapers original purpose? 

Modifié par maaaze, 25 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[D24O]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I liked the Control ending. I liked how Shepard had to sacrifice himself to save everyone.

I liked how he became the galaxy's shield.

EDIT:

I agree with D24O though. The endings felt like my enemy was giving me an ultimatum. But I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. From the start of the series the Reapers were these OP killing machines.  If we were given an ending where the galactic force wins through the power of friendship, it would have cheapened the Reapers.

If the Catalyst was not the reaper avatar, I would have no problem, but like I've said earlier, him being the big bad adds a ton of unpleasand implications. I don't liek the idea of the Crucible, a mcguffin that we don't know what it does until the writers dump it on us, but this situation calls for stuff like that. But haveing it make us something of a tool for the enemy doesn't fit with the rest of the story IMO.

[Unata]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I liked the Control ending. I liked how Shepard had to sacrifice himself to save everyone.

I liked how he became the galaxy's shield.

EDIT:

I agree with D24O though. The endings felt like my enemy was giving me an ultimatum. But I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. From the start of the series the Reapers were these OP killing machines.  If we were given an ending where the galactic force wins through the power of friendship, it would have cheapened the Reapers.

She/He just replaces spacebaby in control, spacebaby is tired and wants to retire on a warm beach somewhere

As to the lift part, that made a lot of ?!? a top my head , where the heck did that come from? along with  the round thing Anderson and Shep lean aganist cause it was all flat when Shep entered the room, add in the weapon appearing and disappearing and changing all during the ending, unlimited ammo, is all a dream or a nightmare to me.

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution.  

No it is not...taking away individuality and combining both into one controlled Hive mind is the important part to the reaper solution. Reseting the Galaxy so they don´t evolve passed the point of total destruction is the important part.

Both are not the case anymore in the destroy ending..."your children will create new synthetics" which will lead to new conflict.

destroy does not represent the reaper solution.

You end up playing within the reaper paradigm, giving in to the bad guy,  

you doing that if you refuse to take action...you are saying the reapers can not be defeated...
because Shaperd does not like the weapon that many cycles built to destroy the reapers

 So you are defeated and at the marcy of the Reapers. 

No, you are defeated because you won´t take action when you had the chance. On a misguided attempt to make a pointless stand against the weapon that the organics created.

As for control, I agree, Shepalyst is no tthe Catalyst, like I said earlier, its an amplified version of what's going on, something that if headcanonned, ends up working. But my problem still is that its working within the reaper paradigm.  

Like I said, you will have to trust Shaperds values. He repurposes the reapers to do what he thinks is right. He uses them to rebuild and help the people instead of destroing and eradicating their existance.

How exactly does this play into the the catalyst venture?How exactly does this amplify the reapers original purpose? 

My point is that all of the choices are aspects of the reaper solution. The catalyst mixes synthetics and organics (synthesis) to create and control the reapers (control) to destroy organic and synthetic life so they don't kill each other (destroy). That means that everything operates within the Catalyst's paradigm, which takes away much of the hopeful symbolism you describe because the Catalyst is the big bad of this universe. 

The choices work. That's not really up for debate, how they work is up to you, but they apparently work (and Control is my ending of choice, so i do trust my Shepard not to go ape s*** and kill everything.) But the fact that working within the paradigm of a being that's committed the worst atrocities in the galaxy turns out great, and that we were wrong, and essentially we were the problem the whole time, I don't feel fits in well with the story. 

[MegaSovereign]

The Reapers are incomprehensible beings; millions if not billions of years old.

Symbolically, building and delivering the Crucible to the Citadel showed the Reapers that their solution is flawed. That's why the Catalyst helps you. He underestimated the organics' resourcefulness.

This symbolism is significant. We defeated the Reapers even before detonating the Crucible. This sort of victory validates Shepard's efforts without cheapening the Reapers' persona. I like that.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution.  

No it is not...taking away individuality and combining both into one controlled Hive mind is the important part to the reaper solution. Reseting the Galaxy so they don´t evolve passed the point of total destruction is the important part.

Both are not the case anymore in the destroy ending..."your children will create new synthetics" which will lead to new conflict.

destroy does not represent the reaper solution.

You end up playing within the reaper paradigm, giving in to the bad guy,  

you doing that if you refuse to take action...you are saying the reapers can not be defeated...
because Shaperd does not like the weapon that many cycles built to destroy the reapers

 So you are defeated and at the marcy of the Reapers. 

No, you are defeated because you won´t take action when you had the chance. On a misguided attempt to make a pointless stand against the weapon that the organics created.

As for control, I agree, Shepalyst is no tthe Catalyst, like I said earlier, its an amplified version of what's going on, something that if headcanonned, ends up working. But my problem still is that its working within the reaper paradigm.  

Like I said, you will have to trust Shaperds values. He repurposes the reapers to do what he thinks is right. He uses them to rebuild and help the people instead of destroing and eradicating their existance.

How exactly does this play into the the catalyst venture?How exactly does this amplify the reapers original purpose? 

My point is that all of the choices are aspects of the reaper solution. The catalyst mixes synthetics and organics (synthesis) to create and control the reapers (control) to destroy organic and synthetic life so they don't kill each other (destroy). That means that everything operates within the Catalyst's paradigm, which takes away much of the hopeful symbolism you describe because the Catalyst is the big bad of this universe. 

The choices work. That's not really up for debate, how they work is up to you, but they apparently work (and Control is my ending of choice, so i do trust my Shepard not to go ape s*** and kill everything.) But the fact that working within the paradigm of a being that's committed the worst atrocities in the galaxy turns out great, and that we were wrong, and essentially we were the problem the whole time, I don't feel fits in well with the story. 

we don´t know if the choices will work. all the epilogues focused on the positive sides of these choices.
But nothing is for certain.

I see now where you are coming from but i think you misreading the actual purpose of the reapers and are confusing them with the means they took.

There is hope now in all the endings...with the cycle still intact there was none.

going to bed now...it was nice argueing with you....everybody have a goodnight sleep.

[DirtyPhoenix]

MegaSovereign wrote...
 From the start of the series the Reapers were these OP killing machines.  If we were given an ending where the galactic force wins through the power of friendship, it would have cheapened the Reapers.

Agreed.

D240 wrote...
Destroying synthetic life to preserve organic life is an important part of the reaper solution.

I think its important to remember the original intent for which the catalyst was created. To mediate peace between organics and synthetics. He is not biased towards either side.

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Reapers are incomprehensible beings; millions if not billions of years old.

Symbolically,
building and delivering the Crucible to the Citadel showed the Reapers
that their solution is flawed. That's why the Catalyst helps you. He
underestimated the organics' resourcefulness.

This is symbolism
is significant. We defeated the Reapers even before detonating the
Crucible. This sort of victory validates Shepard's efforts without
cheapening the Reapers' persona. I like that.

 
Agreed again!

Modifié par pirate1802, 25 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

we don´t know if the choices will work. all the epilogues focused on the positive sides of these choices.
But nothing is for certain.

I see now where you are coming from but i think you misreading the actual purpose of the reapers and are confusing them with the means they took.

There is hope now in all the endings...with the cycle still intact there was none.

going to bed now...it was nice argueing with you....everybody have a goodnight sleep.

There is hope, but the means by which it comes about, working with the enemy, IMO doesn't fit in well with the rest of the story, which I don't like. But you're right, there is hope now, and with the EC one can interpert themselves a satisfying ending. I don't expect to change your mind, you like th eending, and I'm glad you do, all I am trying to do is explain where I'm coming from when I say I don't like the end.

But anyway, good night, it was a pleasure.

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...

D24O wrote...

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.
Sheperd: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
Catalyst: A simple mistake. The Citadel is part of me

Being a part of him implies control of it. It was changing as the Crucible awakens him.

Being part of him does not imply that he has control over it. as much you have no control over your heartbeat.

This is further disproven by 2 statement:

"you being here, the first organic ever, proves my solution won´t work anymore" this statement makes no sense if the catalyst himself brought him there.

"Why are you here ?" the catalyst himself is suprised that Shaperd did make it to the crucible...it makes no sense for him to ask him that question if he himself brought him there.

If someone else put something into your ass without your permisson, you would be too nervous...

YES you altered me blah blah herp derp, but choice chamber is part of Citadel and not part of Crucible - which is ****ing from your mind - obvious troll is obvious.

We believed that design was lost few cycles ago herp derp blah blah .... hahahaha just last cycle was there with Protheans and their agents would told them - obious troll is obvious.

Ya dawg sentence - that I don´t need to describe...
- Organics seek perfect thru technology. Synthetics seek perfection thru understanding.
- so they start fight

tell me this explanation is not crap, when Catalyst conclusion saying that we are dependent at each other so we are going to kill each other.

maaaze wrote...

There is hope now in all the endings...with the cycle still intact there was none.

 


There is even more hope for next cycle and everyone which came after because they actualy kill Reapers and can live free from Reaper´s dictate - it was luxury which Reapers took from each cycle for age of their rampaging genocide.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:19 .

[ZLurps]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

<and I snipped a bunch of stuff>

Do you remember Walters interview before ME3 launch where he said he was tired to franchise and liked to do something else? I sort of respected him for being so honest, it's very rare at these days that publishers let their staff speak so openly, but there was also question in my mind, if he had what it takes at the first place, but I digress.

For me there are just too many odd pieces out there that I could dismiss those for being accidents and I'm not at all convinced that ending was even supposed to make sense as "in ME universe".

I'm not sure if it is supposed to make sense at all, but what we have is something that could be seen as immature sexual symbolism, emotional sterility that Taboo pointed out earlier and sort of sado-masochistic relationship of story / player. Depending how people interpret the Crusible it could be seen as satisfying the Catalyst. etc.

I think it goes deeper than the sado-masochistic relationship with the player and catalyst. It is quite sick. See below.

I have played game where protagonist has not only died in the ending (and there's no way around it) but turned out to be used by antagonist resulting also death of every person who helped protagonist during the journey. That weren't what I expected, but in comparison, last stages of ME3 were actually a bit disturbing.

For me issue isn't Shepard dying, dark age scenario was bitter, I liked the universe, but for me the problem is how these things are delivered. I wish I could see something like an attemt to remake ending of Space Odyssey 2001 because something like that could have been done with the elements they had, but I don't see that attempt. I wish I could see deep moral pondering in choises we have, but I see just superficial attempt to look intellectual. Again, with material they had, pieces for creating such set up were there.

EDIT/ Grammar and stuff, I'm tired.

Yes, that's the interview. I didn't see it before the release of the game. If I did, I wouldn't have gotten the game. It's the one when asked about if there was going to be any post ending DLC and he said something like "what's the point? It's a wasteland." or something like that.

The interview flew under the radar. If it hadn't, I seriously doubt the sales would have been like they were. It flew way under the pregame hype that was going on. I know I wouldn't have bought the game.

The point is that they could have at least given the thing a decent burial for the hard core fans of the series, especially given all the hype they were doing. This was a bait and switch.

The "symbolism" crap going on was disturbing. I'm in my late 50s. I read Poe before bed when I was a kid. I used to read horror novels before going to sleep. Nothing really bothers me. This ending disturbed me. I didn't sleep well. It was a psychological thing that was going on. Mind you that I picked "destroy" and there were no geth around in my ending to die -- the Quarians had taken care of that because Legion had died in ME2 (not high enough paragon/renegade), so I hadn't committed genocide, and I hadn't done Arrival with this character.

It was the total feeling of emptiness. I guess it was because I made the choices I would make in those situations throughout the entire series. I had put too much of me into the character. They took that away, and they did psycholocally in a very brutal manner. You had no control over your character anymore from the second that laser blast hit 20 m in front of you. At that point it became Mac's character, not yours.

The problem with the ending was that we as the player still had hope. This is about more than just Shepard's collapse. That's a huge psychological blow. This is about breaking a player. This is non-consensual sado-masochism. That is why this ending is such a mind f***. That is why I still hate it with a passion, and will always hate it. It broke the unwritten contract between player and game writer.

It was like you were living someone else's twisted dream. I know they didn't develop Anderson much, but you know you can wrap your brain around stuff and okay you served under this guy for years, and he was your mentor. He helped you get over Torfan (or Akuze) and helped you grow into a real leader. And you just shot him because you had absolutely no control over your character, because the writer said you had to just to demonstrate The Illusive Man's power. So I put a bullet in TIM, and should have finished him off like Liara did those Cerberus troops but no such option. And then Anderson died next to you, and he didn't blame you at all. He said "You did good, child. You did good." And then that collapse. I thought that was the end. That I have to say was ****ing cruel. It was sadistic.

But not as sadistic as what was to come. Three choices: do what you just fought against, do what the bastard catalyst wants, or destroy the reapers. But nothing matters anyway because all the mass relays got destroyed. You died. The Normandy got stranded on some world in the ass end of nowhere. And call this "your choices matter ending". No wonder I couldn't sleep. It was like being mentally tortured for over an hour. This is not art. This is cruelty.

Then after pressure they yield to give us this EC which "explained" to us peons that which we already understood. The EC didn't make it better. You still get no real closure because of "art."

And this is the way to end a series, and this is the way to treat people. Hype a story. Hype a game by saying "all your choices matter" and go into detail about them, then switch the hype with a product like this. The ending is still **** and is the most sadistic thing I've ever played in a video game.

Walters and Hudson took the coward's way out with slash and burn, and just toyed with the player at the end. They could have given a good solid ending that left the player with a "phew, we won" to a "fk yeah! we won!!!", hell even with an epilogue like Gears 3 and as corny as it may seem just Shepard and LI staring out together at the sunrise (it's a new day), and said in the dump to screen -- "This is the end of the Mass Effect series, or the end of Commander Shepard's story. We hope you enjoyed it. We have some additional content planned for the game and hope you come back to enjoy that as well." I'll take corny over what we got any day.

The way it is now skip the single player for Mass Effect 3. Just go play the multi-player in this one.

Game starts toying with you even before Citadel sequences.

For me ending of Cronos station sequence, where we hear that Citadel has moved was part where I thought, WTH is this crap, but that's just something I guess happened because problems in production, deadline issues. However, that at the moment according to Walter's Twitter, everybody but few lucky individuals who were able to escape with shuttles died, makes me wonder if there was something more into it.

Real problems start to show up in London. The way how saying good byes and building towards the climax gave me very bad feeling in other sense. For me it was fore shadowing Shepards demise, his becoming sort of "space messiah" and then that's what we got.

If you think how ending influences your whole story arch in ME3, it makes Crusible Shepards cross, cross that Shepard did everythign s/he could to build, and in the end Shepard dies using Crusible and _satisfying the needs of catalyst_. Shepards inviduality, Shepards needs or wants are actually irrelevant, only thing that practically matters is Shepards DNA, (seeds in Walters notes) which Catalyst needs to satisfy it's needs. Irrelevancy of Shepard manifests in how all (pre EC) choises, but fullwilling the one which Catalyst tried before and failed, cause galactic dark age, death and suffering of millions.

[Massa FX]

As gamers and hard core ME fans we can continue to bemoan Bioware's poor ending and subsequent defense of said ending or we can forgive and let their ending rest. They've cut off their nose to spite their face with fans for some inexplicable reason and I believe its a lesson learned. The ending hurt sales and worst than that, it hurt their reputation in the gaming community.

I personally don't believe their reputation is repairable, but as a RPG game lover... I forgive them. I still love ME and will always enjoy roleplaying Shepard.

[Ieldra]

Rather than talking about the ending as such, about which there have been too many threads already, I'd like to return to the topic of this thread and discuss the symbolism in the game. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, and where it didn't, the problem was mainly that the symbolism wasn't sufficiently grounded in in-world logic.

[ZLurps]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rather than talking about the ending as such, about which there have been too many threads already, I'd like to return to the topic of this thread and discuss the symbolism in the game. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, and where it didn't, the problem was mainly that the symbolism wasn't sufficiently grounded in in-world logic.

Like someone posted earlier, the problem is, that without giving exploring context of player experience, we can see pretty much any sort of symbolism we want. Also, why leave out the possibility that there isn't any intended symbolims at all? 

Anyway, regarding your OP. Even I offered varous explanation in my initial reply, in my following posts I tried to explain that lift scenes symbolims might be exactly what you thought. Shepard collapsing on lift means certain kind of end, Sheps doesn't ability to do anything that matters after that point and can only continue because Catalyst "ascends" him/her.

I tried to point out, that, IMO it fits in with certain other elements in game.

[Elite Trooper]

How come Shepard passes out from blood loss at the console then manages to walk around and listen to the Catalyst for 10 minutes. Then he/she runs on the platform to Synthesis despite having a limp/manages to speed walk in an upright posture and shoot the Destroy tube despite having a limp/manages to push against the force the Control handles give off?

[Sajuro]

Honestly I just saw the Crucible being phallic like Sov was in ME1 and Shep passing out because he was tired.

[Dendio1]

I find it simply reiterates that shepard is still merely a man.