254 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkerCompanion]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

What do you folks think would be a fair multiplier?

At least x2 on Primes and Banshees.

Atlases . . . maybe a 1.5x, since they are SO easy to get in the glass.

Brutes warrant a normal headshot multiplier, because they are probably the hardest unit in the game to headshot, in my opinion.

[Grunt_Platform]

I'm just going to assume that adding specialized headshot rules to bosses is harder than we think. Besides, giving bosses 50% damage reduction on top of armor's defensive value would do horrible things to most guns.

Anyway, it looks to me like giving bosses a special weak point damage bonus in the +10% to +50% range. Key thing to me is that whatever the value, it needs to receive Headshot damage bonuses, and it needs to reward precision weapons like Sniper Rifles.

[ChickenDownUnder]

If it has a head, then it can be shot at. And, since a head is more important than, say, an arm, it should do more damage.

2X multiplier ftw

[Mgamerz]

Evo_9 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

So it would take longer for use to kill them.

Atheosis wrote...

Beacuse you guys don't think things through a lot of the time?

K. Guess we won't talk about this then. Later.

Thats a great attitude to have towards your fanbase.

Are you serious?

[Strict31]

bob2.0 wrote...

There are people in this thread, that when tasked with building a robot for the sole purpose of combat, would put the processor and vital computer parts in the head, instead of the heavily armored torso.

But then where are you gonna put the power source?

And then, where are you gonna put the cooling system to keep the heat from the power source from melting the delicate components of the processor.

And hey...what's stopping you from heavily armoring the head? Skynet managed to do it with the Terminators.

Thank robot-god that they don't build humanoid robots for combat in the really real world.

[Urdnot Trex]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Why do you think headshots were removed on the big creatures?

Setting aside the obvious 'to make them more bossy', at the time it seemed like an effort to nerf sniping infiltrators. But now neither sniper rifles nor infiltrators seem all that powerful due to other balance changes. Headshots reward player skill, so I think it's unfortunate that you guys took it out. I wished you had just reduced the multiplier to 1.5

I agree with this, it was my initial thought at the time of the nerf. 
But I don't see why now. It makes taking the +20% headshot bonus in passives useless, since most small enemies die from hard-hitting guns' head shots in one hit without the bonus. This nerf also kicked 1 shot snipers in the balls. 

My javelin sucked pretty hard in the first place, but with the passives on my gethfiltrator it was decent. Then you take away prime headshots, nerf TC sniper dmg, nerf HM dmg, and nerf Geth passives...
Lets just say I'm still a little cross <_<

[Grunt_Platform]

...when did they nerf Geth passives? They still receive a 1.1x multiplicitive bonus to damage with geth weapons. Hunter mode took a 7.5% damage nerf, but Networked AI is still good.

The Javelin does have problems though: Without weak points to hit on bosses, all it's got left is being the most inefficient weapon against troopers and mid-tier enemies in the game.

It might be fun for recreating the Farsight XR-20 when the sniper super-penetration barrel comes out though.

Modifié par EvanKester, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:29 .

[WeAreLegion-]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Why do you think headshots were removed on the big creatures?

To make the game 2x harder

[Conduit0]

Geth Prime: 1.5 damage modifier
Yes Primes are somewhat slow and are large targets, however their cannon can easily staggerlock to death and you have two turrets which are arguably more deadly than the Prime its self to contend with while trying to shoot it.

Cerberus Atlas: cockpit 1.15 , Vent 2.0
The Atlas is big and slow, but it can still denfend its self by blocking with its arms that take decreased damage and it simply makes sense that the cockpit would be a weak point, certainly makes more sense the current strategy of shooting the crotch plate off for extra damage, and the vent is a pretty hard to hit target, you should be rewarded for nailing it there.

Banshee: 1.75
Banshee's have big heads, but they can teleport, synckill frequently, and are an obnoxious bullet sponge even when you get them to stand still, extra head damage would make fighting them just a little more bearable when you don't have heavy hitters on your team.

[Kyerea]

Urdnot Trex wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Why do you think headshots were removed on the big creatures?

Setting aside the obvious 'to make them more bossy', at the time it seemed like an effort to nerf sniping infiltrators. But now neither sniper rifles nor infiltrators seem all that powerful due to other balance changes. Headshots reward player skill, so I think it's unfortunate that you guys took it out. I wished you had just reduced the multiplier to 1.5

I agree with this, it was my initial thought at the time of the nerf. 
But I don't see why now. It makes taking the +20% headshot bonus in passives useless, since most small enemies die from hard-hitting guns' head shots in one hit without the bonus. This nerf also kicked 1 shot snipers in the balls. 

My javelin sucked pretty hard in the first place, but with the passives on my gethfiltrator it was decent. Then you take away prime headshots, nerf TC sniper dmg, nerf HM dmg, and nerf Geth passives...
Lets just say I'm still a little cross <_<

It's funny, since it was the Shotgun Infiltrators that were top-scoring repeatedly in-games until the Krysae showed up and literally rained on everyone's parade. Even then, Claymore GIs were still top-dog. Then Rank 6 TC SR gets nerfed, and guess which Infiltrator still wasn't affected? That's right, Shotty Infiltrators. SRs got penalized and became increasingly redundant especially since headshotting/cockpit shotting the Geth Primes and Atlases respectively punished SR players even more than Shotty Infiltrators. I loved my Javelin, but I dropped it for a Claymore X right after the TC Rank 6 nerf. It was pointless compared to the power of the Claymore that was entirely unaffected by TC's Rank 6 reduction.

The Rank 4 damage bonus on TC should have been nerfed by 15% and the Rank 6 SR should have been left alone. Hell, half the damn problems associated with people picking Infiltrators all the damn time came from the Krysae's introduction and wide-spread use amongst SR Infiltrators. Is the boss headshot removal unpopular? Definitely, I'd say most BSNers agree it was a bad call and hasn't really made bosses that much harder than before. If anything, it's just made Geth Primes/Atlases MORE annoying, but not necessarily more difficult. Updates like increasing the volley of Atlas blasts from 3 to 4 legitimately made it more difficult and dangerous, but removing cockpit shot? Not so much. Was TC nerfed incorrectly? You bet your a55 it was, punishing SR players while basically encouraging growth amongst the Shotty Infiltrators. But hey, it's Edmonton's call in the end, not our's. All we can do is deal with it.

Anyways, to answer Brenon's question to the thread: A 1.5x modifier for cockpitshotting/headshotting the bosses would be fair.

Modifié par Kyerea, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[Ragnakuna]

Question: Why have such a high multiplier? Wouldn't it be easier to distribute a buff to semi-automatic weapons and sniper rifles to their damage and stability/accuracy so you can lower the damage modifier to the mobs?

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

Can't you guys just keep the 3.5x multiplier the same but make a more confined area that qualify for the multiplier?

ex. designate the area above the nose in the banshee's or the weird slot area right underneath the atlas' cockpit.

[T41rdEye]

1.5x would be perfect. Atlas should have the back fan as weakspot instead of glass. Its hard NOT to hit the glass. Banshees are just annoying bullet sponges at the moment, giving them headshots would spice things up. I miss the popping head primes used to have. Snipers need a buff right now badly. A Paladin with a scope is better than most snipers right now.

[Grunt_Platform]

PRC_Heavy_Z wrote...

Can't you guys just keep the 3.5x multiplier the same but make a more confined area that qualify for the multiplier?

ex. designate the area above the nose in the banshee's or the weird slot area right underneath the atlas' cockpit.

Patch notes suggest headshots are determined by which bone or hitbox is being hit (don't know if it's based on which hitbox is bound to which bone or.. what). Tiny weakpoints like that probably aren't posible without a ton of new code and they'd be prone to all kinds of annoying bugs.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

EvanKester wrote...
Patch notes suggest headshots are determined by which bone or hitbox is being hit (don't know if it's based on which hitbox is bound to which bone or.. what). Tiny weakpoints like that probably aren't posible without a ton of new code and they'd be prone to all kinds of annoying bugs.

"hitbox" or collision mesh is generally what every game engine uses, yes.

If Unreal engine is anything similar to the refractor II engine, then you could just select which polygon faces will have the damage multiplier on the collision mesh. 

It's not difficult but maybe time consuming. However what isn't time consuming in post-production patching?

Modifié par PRC_Heavy_Z, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[gimmethegepgun]

I think that even if they don't put the 3.5x back in, you should at least get a 1.2x on bosses if you pick the Headshot evolution on the passive.

[ka243]

Bring headshots back on bosses please!

[VDubb]

MChang1984 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Why do you think headshots were removed on the big creatures?

Seems like an abrupt change in gameplay to me and you always had this ability in Single Player.

How hard is it for a programmer to declare a new multiplier variable in raw code?

If you are saying you have

int headShotMultiplier = 3.5;

you are saying it is too hard to have another variable for headshots say...

int bossHeadShotMultiplier = 1.5;

That's hard? I don't think so.

I personally believe that for bosses the damage should be at least 50% more than base damage. In otherwords, tone it down but don't remove it.

I guess this is what happens if you have multiplayer as an add-on to the single-player, that the code is heavily influenced by the single-player. Hopefully Bioware corrects this in their next multiplayer game.

[Jonathan Shepard]

It's too bad individual weapons didn't have headshot multiplier bonuses. I feel like that would've been much more interesting. Especially in the wake of removing headhsot bonuses from bosses (who all but one of have heads).

As for what I think the multiplier should be?


For Sniper Rifles, 200% (this is in bonus damage) sounds a little bit overpowered, so I'll say that it should be 50-100% (1.5 to 2 shots worth... etc.), and that could even scale with every two levels of the gun. I mean, this IS the weapon you're supposed to be encouraging headshots with, right BW? Seems like it should get the highest bonus. Also, what would be REALLY great, is that headshots on Gold and Platinum, instead of getting that full 200% bonus, would only get a 75% bonus against shielded targets, but would ignore shield gate. Would actually make Sniper Rifles like the Javelin and Widow useful for MANY players. I was originally going to say 100% rather than 200% for that scenario, but I think the Javelin might benefit too much from that. I haven't done the math, but the Javelin really should be able to kill a Centurion in a single shot. It is an ultra rare single-shot sniper after all, unlike the Indra, which is almost an assault rifle with no recoil and a built-in scope. Maybe bosses would only take 2/3's of each multiplier? 1/2? But if you can't change headshot atributes for mobs, hopefully you could change it per weapon. Or at least weapon type, which I'm suggesting here.

AR's should get a 25% bonus (so 1.25 total damage compared to a regular shot). Considering how many bullets they can put into a head, that damage adds up. Could be a 50% bonus. As before, this could scale. Guns like the Harrier could really benefit from this, especially with such a low ammo supply. Encourages more tactical thinking and play than just "spray and pray" as I know many who use AR's tend to with tanky characters.

Pistols should definitely have a 100% bonus. Nice and easy. Double damage for the basic weapons getting headshots. Intuitive, no? Not much else to say for this. 

SMG's tend to be weak overall, which is unfortunate, especially considering how cool the Hornet is. Luckily, the Hurricane is powerful enough to work for many characters. Because of the high-recoil nature of these weapons, and the burst-fire feature of at least 2 of them, I'd say a 150% bonus is good. Could still be 100%, though, which might be a little fairer to the enemy.

And finally, shotguns. No headshot bonus for any other than the Graal and Crusader. And they get a... let's say 80% headshot bonus. I mean, they already ignore shield gate, don't they? I don't remember for the Crusader, I haven't used it in so long.

...a plan SIMILAR to that is how I would've really liked to see it. I don't know if those damage bonuses are too high or too low, as I didn't do any hard math. Just thinking about weapon types and strategies, I tried to come up with a system interesting and fair. 

Furthermore, why not have certain bosses, instead of being /immune/ to headshot damage, be resistant to headshot damage? The Prime for example has its combat drone. So even if it's getting its eyelight shot out, it's not like its really blind, because the drone relays information from the battlefield back to the unit. So maybe the Prime would only take half of the headshot bonus.

Things like the Atlas simply wouldn't take headshot damage, because they don't have a head. Same applies to turrets. No head, no headshot. Atlas should still have a weak spot, but I'm not sure how to design it. Atlases actually seem very well balanced at the moment, so that's good. 

Banshees and Brutes and Phantoms should all take headshot damage like regular. Ravagers though, since they have weird half-head things should be like Primes, and probably only take half of the bonus damage.

Sorry for the long post, but these are just some interesting thoughts I had to make headshots more tactical and beneficial depending on what weapon you're using versus what enemy you're facing. I don't know if any of this could be implemented in a patch, but I would love to see a similar system, with better math and hard numbers. Thanks for reading, if you got this far!

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 25 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[Paragon Toast]

So... i've been lining up those head shots on the banshee for nothing? Well noted.

[RxP4IN]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

What do you folks think would be a fair multiplier?

I'll take a 1.5x multiplier, Mr. Holmes. Anything to entice me to aim just a little bit. Debuffs and weak points are always a good time.

[killacwalka3]

Can they just give a 0.5X headshot multiplier to the bosses so the headshot damage get reduced from 3.5X to 1.75X?

[Ragnakuna]

Correction on my last post: Relativeily easier. I hate math and I know nothing is easy when developing, balancing and fixing a game. I'm just saying that the average damage a weapon can do to a headshot, cut by a small margin and then applied directly to all or most weapons would be an interesting start if you were to cut back the headshot modifier.

This buffs the weapons and creates an incentive to apply accurate fire but maintaining the boss-like figures of the enemies like the brute, banshee, prime etc.

[Lord Thornos]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

So it would take longer for use to kill them.

Sort of... it's because they're (generally) easier to headshot and we had no way of controlling the headshot multilplier ona per-creature basis. And the headshot multiplier is goofy (3.5x or something like that?), intentionally - because it's normally somewhat harder to do (on a normal creature).

That said, I think it's something we're interested in - as headshots are always nice... if it was to be done, it would probably have to be implemented in such a way as to give us control over the multiplier per creature though.

What do you folks think would be a fair multiplier?

A 2x multiplyer would be good. I do not see how headshotting a charging banshee or shooting geth prime is easier than the average enemy. There is the issue of what to do with the atlas though. Also, non-boss enemies do not need a headshot multiplyer, everything kills them fast regardless of the headshot bonus.

Keep in mind that a damage buff such as headshots effects all classes and might make some unique weapon based classes viable on higher difficulties. I used to use, for exampe, the turian soldier until the headshot damage on geth primes was removed.

Modifié par Lord Thornos, 25 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[Battlepope190]

I think it should be at least 100x. That way I can always win!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, add headshots to bosses back, even at only 1.5x.