254 réponses à ce sujet

[DBL_ZA]

Brenon, thanks for all the advice/feedback you have given us. Sure gives a good idea of where to aim for those unsure of these things. And it's nice to hear some dev opinions as well

As for Brute and Ravager, on a personal note I just think that they are easy enough to take out without changing anything around damage taken to them. Even on Gold they are a joke to people who know how to approach them. I have to agree on the Atlas and Banshee though, they can be rather... annoying....

But thanks again for all the response here. I'm sure the community appreciates it as much as/more than I do. Trolls aside, anyway

[Dokteur Kill]

Brenon Holmes wrote...
I won't disagree with you there... patches take a pretty long time to roll out.

Actually, this is something I've been thinking about a bit.

Would it make sense to decouple the PC and console versions in that respect? No, I don't mean this as a "pc gaming master race comment". One of the advantages of Steam is that it's easy to release and roll back patches, and I figure Origin gives you the same possibility. Basically, you could be releasing frequent, small patches to the PC. Since you're only working inside your own (well, your publisher's) ecosystem you don't need the lengthy MS/Sony verification process.

I figure a lot of fixes are changes to the common code base that's the same for all three platforms, so there would be a lot of benefit from "testing" those fixes at least on the PC platform. Then, when you've reached a certain volume of changes, you can roll out a bigger console patch, and be more confident than now that it doesn't contain any significant bugs.

The main problems I see with it are related to DLC development. So I guess you'd have to patch the console versions before DLC release.

[Benny8484]

So why is this being addressed when Vangaurds "A Entire class" are still completely broken?  Shouldn't that be #1 priority right now?  People cannot play vangaurds unless they host or else they fall through the terrain.

[Talhydras]

Question: Could you not add new tooltips to the rotation explaining that to weaken the brute you shoot it above the claw, in the guts, and the knee (just examples pulled out of my ear)? There's a fair amount of quality-of-life improvements that could be made to the tooltips anyway and synching up enemy AI and hitbox changes with an overhaul of those would be nice.

[Jebel Krong]

geth primes should take head-shot bonuses, like most geth it's not always that easy to actually hit the 'head' part of their anatomy, particularly in chaotic situations with lots of screen-shake (though i will concede the size makes it a little easier).

banshees never seemed to work anyway - brenon mentioned passing through edges, that seems to happen a lot - particularly with the javelin, for some reason.

i have no problem with the atlas not taking extra - those things was a joke before.

brutes, on the other hand, have a tiny head - snap-shots or not (and that's another thing that doesn't work half the time, and recently seems to have gotten worse), and they also cover it, too, so head-shot bonuses should be worth it. right now just aim for the giant side-mass and they go down quickly anyway.

once again my main complaint in all this is that headshots take a certain amount of skill to pull off, and that should be rewarded, especially for snipers, however atm it's far easier to kill bosses using a pheonix character and the smash attack - which does more damage than any sniper - and involves pressing one button.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 25 juillet 2012 - 08:25 .

[Black zr1]

I know most of us here have heavy melee'd a geth trooper with a N7 Shadow, yes? Notice something different about it, hmm?

Now, if you haven't, try it with a weakened (1 bar of armor) Prime.

Quite hilarious and empowering results.

I see no reason for there not to be headshots on bosses if the situation above happens everytime its attempted.

Modifié par Black zr1, 25 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[kr3g]

Can you make it, so only sniper rifles will benefit from bosses headshots?

[Klokos]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...
I won't disagree with you there... patches take a pretty long time to roll out.

Actually, this is something I've been thinking about a bit.

Would it make sense to decouple the PC and console versions in that respect? No, I don't mean this as a "pc gaming master race comment". One of the advantages of Steam is that it's easy to release and roll back patches, and I figure Origin gives you the same possibility. Basically, you could be releasing frequent, small patches to the PC. Since you're only working inside your own (well, your publisher's) ecosystem you don't need the lengthy MS/Sony verification process.
[...]

No, Steam doesn't make patch release easier for the developers, it just makes it easier for the players to get it, and if I remember right EA/Origin also verify patches. Finally you have no idea the ****storm it would caus eif only one platform gets patches (even if they get it just earlier). 

[KaktusCassius]

Glad that something might be done. I would even take a 1.1 multiplier, just to have some encouragement to aim.

People talk about the Atlas, but even though it is huge, there was some challenge involved. Sometimes it was behind smoke, sometimes it was not facing you directly and you could only see a small part of the cockpit, coupled with the clunky movement of the mech when it turns.
The point is that while hitting the cockpit certainly was not a big challenge, trying to do it under all circumstances was more fun than what was left after the changes, where for an infiltrator against an Atlas the only challenge left is to go through the cycle of Cloak, Proxy Mine or ED if available, and Shoot as fast as possible.

Whether it makes sense that the head of a giant robot is more important? I would also aim for the left foot of a Prime if its CPU were supposed to be there so that this gave me a bonus, because it still would be better than what we have now. But then we might as well use the head, with the head it was fun to get the result of making the final shot with a Widow.

And so on for other bosses, I do not care that much about the location of the individual spots or the multiplier, both could be small so that it would not be too easy, just give us something,
For now I still think that May 29 was a terrible day for this game, moving from sniping at weakspots to smashing through walls. (Which in my opinion would remain an annoyance no matter what happens with headhots, a change of making Smash/Slash through walls less effective AND making it less dangerous for the player while directly facing an enemy by using a shorter animation or invulnerability frames seems interesting to me, but that is a different topic...)

[Killahead]

And here I thought we had agreed that removing the headshot multiplier on bosses was a good thing, you know, since it kinda made the whole "boss" thing a joke when it was there. Primes and Atlases go down fast enough as it is. Wouldn't mind a 50% multiplier to the Banshee's head (smaller hitbox, and she moves faster), but that's all.

[Prawny]

Bosses should have weakspots. Gaming 101.

[Killahead]

Prawny wrote...

Bosses should have weakspots. Gaming 101.

Depends. In this game the bosses aren't really bosses, they are tanks meant to draw your attention while smaller units flank you. The Atlas and the Prime aren't exactly dangerous foes on their own, and before the multipliers were removed they were a joke. Brutes are still a joke, IMO. Banshees are different, behave different, and could get a small headshot multiplier.

[Elijini]

Far as the armour plating mechanics work, its almost never worthwhile to bother with shooting the Atlas plates.

The Brute plates are done well, with the shoulders etc reducing damage taken until destroyed, and positioned well enough to be worth destroying due to the way the Brute's body flows in combat.

[mybudgee]

Moral of this thread: Shoot altases in the crotch!

[UKresistance]

Headshots were removed from bosses because certain penetrating sniper weapons could get a double hit from one shot. That was too hard to fix, so they nerfed the whole thing.

[Klokos]

UKresistance wrote...

Headshots were removed from bosses because certain penetrating sniper weapons could get a double hit from one shot. That was too hard to fix, so they nerfed the whole thing.

 No, only Atlas could get double hit when firing the canopy. They removed Headshots from Geth primes because they were a joke if you had anybody with a weapon with high Alpha.

[Grunt_Platform]

Elijini wrote...

Far as the armour plating mechanics work, its almost never worthwhile to bother with shooting the Atlas plates.

The Brute plates are done well, with the shoulders etc reducing damage taken until destroyed, and positioned well enough to be worth destroying due to the way the Brute's body flows in combat.

Why not? if you're using a sustained fire weapon or a shotgun, they take full damage for each bullet to the plate and when they break you get about an extra bar's worth of damage.


And thanks, Brenon, for returning to the thread! I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys have in store. I am kind of curious what other things you might make weak points, and if it's possible to give a boss multiple "headshot" weak points with different modifiers.

Modifié par EvanKester, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[Rifneno]

Klokos wrote...

 No, only Atlas could get double hit when firing the canopy. They removed Headshots from Geth primes because they were a joke if you had anybody with a weapon with high Alpha.

Geth.  A joke.  ...  Seems like it's been forever, doesn't it?

[cndoubles]

wait headshots were a bug an thats why they was removed??? i jus thought it was bioware being butthurt that people were farming getting easy $$$$ on white with the geth. then how come the heads would pop???

[taomang]

I find the whole no headshot or weak spots on boss creatures rather silly. I understand how it would would be more interesting on Bronze where you have 1-2 boss characters on later stages, where the whole team goes OH SNAP and do their best to kill it before it kills them until someone pops a missile.

On harder difficulties it's not fun, challenging - maybe, rewarding to kill them, not at all. It's more of an ego stroke to have people being able to hit weak spots. That's what makes headshots - headshots. If you believe that they are easy to do, you have to understand that you are just that good,not everyone can aim that good, move fast and pop a headshot in a second. Some people take 3-4 seconds to properly aim.

I don't want to use the word "elitism" because this isnt it. But, if people would stop taking their magnificent skills for granted, and remember that there are less skilled players that want to have fun too. This is a video game. It is supposed to make you feel like you are having fun. Not like you feel you're better than everyone else because you could solo platinum. Put that in your professional resume and see how relevant that is.

Headshots are there BECAUSE it is a challenge and it is rewarding. Lately the multiplayer is more punishing the player than rewarding them with it's "intended" mechanics. The whole geth fix to stop FBWGG didn't really stop people from farming.
Headshots on boss characters don't need a "fair" multiplier. Headshots on the Prime were fair enough. Now there is absolutely no reason to equip a sniping weapon when shotguns and other weapons that don't require much aiming, outperform any sniper.

[ABjerre]

Brenon Holmes wrote...
Bleh, in bit of a pissy mood earlier... sorry. :happy:

*snip*
... as an aside, what do you guys think of the armour plates? (If you weren't aware, you can blow them off to get a bit of a damage bonus - each shoulder, knee and cod piece).

*snip*

All is forgiven, we can all have our bad days - i'm sure that there are places you'd rather be during the summer, than at the office replying to us

That said, thanks a lot for a very informative post. I personally like the armor plates on the Brutes very much - they work exactly how i like a game to: Rewarding the ability to handle a situation in a sertain way.

If anyhting, i would love to see this mechanic on other units too, or perhaps that after the removal of the armor plates, the general armor value of the unit goes down significantly because, you know... armor plates are gone. That way, killing the unit by simply "spraying and praying" can be done, but it would be significantly more effective to start out by removing the armor with a few well aimed shots and then opening up the bullet hose.

edit: In my opinion, the current state of boss unit-head shot-thingy is not particularly bad, but its not very good either. My greatest problem is that there is no reward to being able to aim at them properly - it is simply the one with the biggest bullet hose, that gets to do the most damage every time. Never mind which way they are facing or what angle you attack in; just fire!

Modifié par ABjerre, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:42 .

[count_4]

Brenon Holmes wrote...
we had no way of controlling the headshot multilplier ona per-creature basis.

Oh boy...
This (and all the other apparent limitations) is why you don't let the intern design the boiler plate of a software product.

Modifié par count_4, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .

[scooterbaga]

I for one think primes and atlases should have a ridiculous amount of health. These are the closest things to bosses in MP. We should be terrified when these guys show up.

I say bring back the 3.5 headshot damage... And increase their health by at least 3.5x. So the only way to kill them as fast as we do now is to consistently headshot them. However, since the headshots are easier, I'm definitely leaning towards a more than 3.5x health increase. Those things are walking tanks, and can be taken out before they move 2 meters... Make them the monsters they should be.

Leave Banshees as is. If anything slightly increase the speed (not distance) at which they can teleport. Most characters can calmly back away from a teleporting banshee. That doesn't feel right to me.

If you ever do add another level of boss... Keep the above mentioned buffs. Make the additional bosses even harder. Balance it by not having/spawning as many other enemies at that time/wave. And/or have the new boss kill friend and foe indiscriminately.

[-Morbid-]

Brenon Holmes wrote...


With respect to the Atlas, we originally did want a weakpoint on the exhaust port on the back - but it got cut towards the end as there wasn't enough time to modify the physics asset (the collection of the aforementioned hit boxes) appropriately. That is something we could look at re-adding... as an aside, what do you guys think of the armour plates? (If you weren't aware, you can blow them off to get a bit of a damage bonus - each shoulder, knee and cod piece).

I think working at that would be a good addition, as it would help allow for a tactical battle with the Atlas. Two team members could open fire on it with automatic weapons to draw its attention, while another flanks it and sneaks up on it with a shotgun and pumps some shells into the exhaust port. It's a fairly simple tactic, but also requires some skill and organization to pull off on the higher difficulties.

In my opinon, for boss type enemies there should be two weak points: the head, and another specific to the enemy type. The head is obvious, but the second weak point can either be another part of enemy that takes more damage, or it can be an opening that the enemy leaves after an attack or something.

The Atlas doesn't really leave much in the way of openings, so a smaller bonus in damage to the canopy and a bigger bonus to damage to exhaust port would work great. When playing with PUGs who you cannot coordinate with, you just deal with the smaller damage from the front, but it also rewards teams who work together to strike at the exhaust port.

For the Banshee, she should have a bigger damage bonus to headshots, and her secondary weakness is that she can't always teleport. This helps encourage team mates to focus fire on her to bring down her... biotic effect thingy, whatever the hell it is that makes it so she stops teleporting, so that their sniper can get in a few headshots.

The Brute should get the headshot bonus, and his secondary weakness could be bigger damage to his stomach after you knock the plate off, as he rarely fully exposes it (only when doing his roar thing and doing the overhead smash. Alternatively, the fact that he needs to recover from his charge could be considered his secondary weakness.

For the Prime, the headshot bonus would be good but it doesn't have to be too big. The secondary weakness it has/would have I'm really not sure about, short of making something on his back weaker, but then it might be too similar to the Atlas.

Phantoms are fine with only the big headshot damage bonus, as they are basically humans rather than giant machines or monsters. I would suggest a DR nerf for her cartwheel thing, as it is pretty silly to have a Claymore shell fired into her forehead basically negated because she started to do a flip just as it hit her.

[UkGouki]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

So it would take longer for use to kill them.

Sort of... it's because they're (generally) easier to headshot and we had no way of controlling the headshot multilplier ona per-creature basis. And the headshot multiplier is goofy (3.5x or something like that?), intentionally - because it's normally somewhat harder to do (on a normal creature).

That said, I think it's something we're interested in - as headshots are always nice... if it was to be done, it would probably have to be implemented in such a way as to give us control over the multiplier per creature though.

What do you folks think would be a fair multiplier?

Atheosis wrote...

Beacuse you guys don't think things through a lot of the time?

K. Guess we won't talk about this then. Later.

i would say 2x multi but if using taccloak/adrenaline rush etc bonus 2x +40% so max would be 2.8x multi on all bosses and even low teir enemys its more than enough. also it would balance it more;)

Modifié par UkGouki, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:57 .