201 réponses à ce sujet

[Furian USN]

A nice touch would be to give infiltrators increased reload speed with sniper rifles. I dont like how reload cancel has become super important.. it is not intentional and should not be a factor in balancing things.

[Furian USN]

Also: what lets shot guns ignore shield gate? I assume it is because the pellets all hit but calculate damage seperately.. so you actually hit it really fast in a row, thus damaging past the shield gate, not really ignoring it.

What im worried about is that shield gate may be a trait intrisic to the enemies and it may be very difficult or impossible to allow only certain things to bypass the gate without having a fast-damaging effect. (like shot gun pellets)

I may be entirely wrong - just trying to get this sorted to come up with some suggestions we could actually see.

So far im thinking faster reload and higher damage is what we would get.

Modifié par Furian USN, 25 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .

[Arppis]

I don't mind buffs for Snipers, Devs can do what they want with them. I don't use them personaly.

But I fear that if the snipers would ignore the shieldgate, the enemies would get the same advantage... and then Nemesis and rocket troopers would be the most annoying AND hardest enemies in the game.

Modifié par Arppis, 25 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[JG The Gamer]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Make them ignore the shieldgate.

[Asebstos]

As people have already pointed out, shieldgate is not the problem on Platinum. On Plat there are always big armored bosses around, that's what the single shot aka anti-materiel rifles should be dealing with. For those enemies shieldgate is mostly irrelevant.

[megabeast37215]

Asebstos wrote...

As people have already pointed out, shieldgate is not the problem on Platinum. On Plat there are always big armored bosses around, that's what the single shot aka anti-materiel rifles should be dealing with. For those enemies shieldgate is mostly irrelevant.

That's right... the only problem is when the last guy alive is the Javelin/Widow guy... alot of times the Barriers/shields come back before the next shot can be placed on target. Watching a guy with a Javelin engage a Phantom at close quarters, who is the final enemy in a wave is... painful.

[jabber27]

If I headshot a non boss enemy with a cloaked Widow X shot, it should die. Not be chillin in front of me with no shield but full health. The shield gate makes quickscoping neigh impossible on platinum difficulties. Especially with slow reload times and heavy weight that slows powers. I do believe a shield gate change is in order for single shot snipers.

[Sihmm]

Asebstos wrote...

As people have already pointed out, shieldgate is not the problem on Platinum. On Plat there are always big armored bosses around, that's what the single shot aka anti-materiel rifles should be dealing with. For those enemies shieldgate is mostly irrelevant.

I agree, shieldgate is not the problem, the problem is low damage against the single-shot (anti-materiel) sniper's primary target: bosses.

I don't want sniper rifles to ignore shieldgate.  Heck, I'm pretty sure shieldgate exists primarily to limit the power of sniper rifles on small targets!  Rather, I want sniper rifles to do worthwhile damage against their intended primary targets

[Shakespeare212]

support

[Bekkael]

DevilGood wrote...

IronRush wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

Try your Javelin on a GI specced for max damage everywhere, put AP rounds on it.. and shoot armored targets. I LITERALLY just got done doing this... one shot Ravagers, one shot Brutes, 2 shot Banshee/Atlas Armor. You need your other team members to be the mook killers... but that guy is the designated boss killer. I was amazed at the damage to the Banshee armor... it's more than half.

But yeah other than that... they need love... especially the Kishock.

Javelin 2 shots Atlas on gold/platinum???????
NEVER! Not near of this.

I was actually in a same game with Mega and suggested him to try out the Javelin with GI.
I tried it out myself before that game and it actually one shots ravagers, brutes and a lot of else armored targets.

Offcourse there is that little fact that mine and Megas Javelin is a X version. 
It might not be that effective on lower levels. 

And for one shotting you need to proxy mine the enemy first. Figures.

Alright, how the hell do you have ALL of your URs maxed?? *is extremely jelly of manifest*

[megabeast37215]

Bekkael wrote...
Alright, how the hell do you have ALL of your URs maxed?? *is extremely jelly of manifest*

Only play Gold/Platinum... always get paid, never lose. Having lots of friends with mics who communicate helps alot with never losing.

Also.. avoid the "Please Wait" screen like the plague, save your money... buy 1-2 PSP at a time, if you get an UR keep buying... if not, stop and try again later. The store goes on hot streaks.

[Bekkael]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Alright, how the hell do you have ALL of your URs maxed?? *is extremely jelly of manifest*

Only play Gold/Platinum... always get paid, never lose. Having lots of friends with mics who communicate helps alot with never losing.

Also.. avoid the "Please Wait" screen like the plague, save your money... buy 1-2 PSP at a time, if you get an UR keep buying... if not, stop and try again later. The store goes on hot streaks.

Hmm, very good and specific advice. I will take it to heart, thanks.

[IronRush]

Arppis wrote...

I don't mind buffs for Snipers, Devs can do what they want with them. I don't use them personaly.

But I fear that if the snipers would ignore the shieldgate, the enemies would get the same advantage... and then Nemesis and rocket troopers would be the most annoying AND hardest enemies in the game.

Sure enemies cant get the same advantage on this case.

[Gamemako]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Yes.. I'm a dirty liar. Devilgood
and I showed this to defleshing last night/this morning when he got
on...I wonder if he thinks we're lying?

Put down your
calculator... go take every damage option availble to the geth
infiltrator (no fitness), put on Sniper Amp V, Rail amp III, AP 4... hit
the target with proxy mine then come back and tell me I'm lying again.

You
also left out all the bonuses from the passive, including the geth
weapon bonus, 17.5% from hunter mode and whatever benefit gained from AP
4 ammo...

Passive is called Networked AI (22.5%), which included the geth weapon bonus (10%). Look back at it again; I did not miss them.

For the record, I went and tested. Did not kill. Had lots of HP left, more than I would have expected if it were able to kill. I only have a Javelin IV, however, so I didn't expect a kill, I just expect damage consistent with the ability to do so with a Javelin X.

Sihmm wrote...

OK.

Google spreadsheet

I actually forgot to include extended barrel when I did my earlier calculations, so I guess a Brute can be one-shot on Gold with a Javelin X.  Corrections welcomed.

You have hunter mode as a multiplier. That is not correct. (To be totally sure, I just went and re-tested it). It is additive in both cases.

Sihmm wrote...

I think from the bonus damage of bursting all the sacs at once.

Possibly, but the Claymore deals 27.94% more damage per shot in the first place, so it deals more damage than the Javelin does with the 25% TC multiplier. It also has a higher ROF, but that is neither here nor there.

However, it is possible that bursting the sac could add sufficient damage to kill; I do not know how much damage is added.

Modifié par Gamemako, 25 juillet 2012 - 09:10 .

[Sihmm]

At the risk of reasoning backwards, the behaviour observed in-game (one-shotting a Ravager/Brute) cannot be duplicated if HM is not a multiplier*, so I'm assuming it's a total multiplier.  I've not seen any data to suggest otherwise unless you can provide evidence that it's multiplying base damage instead of total damage?  You could just about pull it off on a Ravager with a Javelin X and AP/Warp IV ammo, but not with a Widow and not on a Brute.  And I'm reliably informed by Ashen Earth that he can one-shot Ravagers on gold using a Widow body shot (i.e. not the sacs) with a similar spec.  So yeah.

As for the Claymore, you may notice I said on a Human Infiltrator without rail amps and with duration spec cloak.  That is, no hunter mode, no 40% boost from TC Evo 2, no additional damage from proxy mine, and (to be absolutely clear), no Shotgun Rail Amp III.  In that scenario a shot is dealing considerably less damage than the Javelin GI under discussion.  Yet the Ravager still goes "splorch!" and dies

(Edit: for clarity's sake, that's around 6.8k minus 8x whatever DR armor still offers with AP IV ammo on)


* Unless a weak-spot mechanic is at work, but Brutes don't have weak spots and in my experience Ravager sacs burst with a single shot rifle deal the same or less damage than body shots.

Modifié par Sihmm, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

Gamemako wrote...

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

Wouldn't help all that much really, shield gate can allready be bypassed by using a salarian infiltrator.

...well, if he's built for power damage, has a level IV power amp, and is carrying an Operative Package. Otherwise, he can't drain out gold turrets or phantoms. Also, he can never drain out gold pryos; they just have too damn much shield.

//EDIT: Need power amp for Hunters as well. And this is assuming all power damage builds. Go for radius on drain and you can't take out a Nemesis without a power amp. //EDIT: Nevermind, must have been a calculation error there.

I am aware of this duh, you can one shot pyros regardless though with a piercing sniper. However the snipers main problem is a general lack of damage not shield gate, allthough that hinders them as well. Playing a sniper against reapers with any one of the wido/black widow/javelin makes you realize how weak they are when you try to kill armor compared to shotguns. Of course, they are not that good at killing troopers either but you can at least be somewhat effective at that if you have decent aim and can reload cancel.

Anyway there is no reason why the claymore should outdamage the widow and javelin as badly as it does. The heavy snipers need major damage buffs. On platinum their damage is a joke. Try a black widow X on platinum for example, you'll want to ragequit after the first round.

Modifié par A Wild Snorlax, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[jpan89]

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

Wouldn't help all that much really, shield gate can allready be bypassed by using a salarian infiltrator.

...well, if he's built for power damage, has a level IV power amp, and is carrying an Operative Package. Otherwise, he can't drain out gold turrets or phantoms. Also, he can never drain out gold pryos; they just have too damn much shield.

//EDIT: Need power amp for Hunters as well. And this is assuming all power damage builds. Go for radius on drain and you can't take out a Nemesis without a power amp. //EDIT: Nevermind, must have been a calculation error there.

I am aware of this duh, you can one shot pyros regardless though with a piercing sniper. However the snipers main problem is a general lack of damage not shield gate, allthough that hinders them as well. Playing a sniper against reapers with any one of the wido/black widow/javelin makes you realize how weak they are when you try to kill armor compared to shotguns. Of course, they are not that good at killing troopers either but you can at least be somewhat effective at that if you have decent aim and can reload cancel.

Anyway there is no reason why the claymore should outdamage the widow and javelin as badly as it does. The heavy snipers need major damage buffs. On platinum their damage is a joke. Try a black widow X on platinum for example, you'll want to ragequit after the first round.

Not to mention how freakin hard it is to aim a Javelin at a Banshee charging randomly all over the place. And phantoms... oh man.

So it's high risk-high reward. For those that has the skill to land those shots, give them the damage they deserve.

[Gamemako]

Sihmm wrote...

At the risk of reasoning backwards, the behaviour observed in-game (one-shotting a Ravager/Brute) cannot be duplicated if HM is not a multiplier*, so I'm assuming it's a total multiplier.  I've not seen any data to suggest otherwise unless you can provide evidence that it's multiplying base damage instead of total damage?  You could just about pull it off on a Ravager with a Javelin X and AP/Warp IV ammo, but not with a Widow and not on a Brute.  And I'm reliably informed by Ashen Earth that he can one-shot Ravagers on gold using a Widow body shot (i.e. not the sacs) with a similar spec.  So yeah.

As for the Claymore, you may notice I said on a Human Infiltrator without rail amps and with duration spec cloak.  That is, no hunter mode, no 40% boost from TC Evo 2, no additional damage from proxy mine, and (to be absolutely clear), no Shotgun Rail Amp III.  In that scenario a shot is dealing considerably less damage than the Javelin GI under discussion.  Yet the Ravager still goes "splorch!" and dies

(Edit: for clarity's sake, that's around 6.8k minus 8x whatever DR armor still offers with AP IV ammo on)


* Unless a weak-spot mechanic is at work, but Brutes don't have weak spots and in my experience Ravager sacs burst with a single shot rifle deal the same or less damage than body shots.

I just tested HM. No equipment, no gear. If you went full weapon damage, use bronze Geth Troopers and a Katana X with barrel (and smart choke for easier testing). With HM as an additive, you deal 481.6 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.225 + 0.175) = 794.64 damage -- not enough to kill a Geth Trooper (825 HP). With HM as multiplier, you deal 481.6 * (1  + 0.25 + 0.225) * 1.175 = 834.673 damage, and the trooper dies. Every time you test, the Trooper will survive. If you took capacity for some reason, you can do the same thing with Assault Troopers and the Disciple X. The result will be identical: the trooper survives, and you see once again that HM is not a multiplier.

I cannot explain why you are getting unusual results. Clearly, something is being applied differently than one would expect. Brutes have no weakpoints, as you mentioned, so that shouldn't be the case.

Of course, I still have yet to see this occur, and testing of my own Javelin IV produced the expected result (though the resolution is not sufficient to see large swings this way or that).

//EDIT: Also, you added the 1.2x multi to PM -- I don't think that applies to the initial use, only to subsequent uses. I'd have to check myself to be sure, though.

//EDIT 2: GP's thread reports that geth weapon damage from Networked AI is a multiplier. I can test this to be certain. It does add considerably to the damage total, leaving you at 6907.43625 damage from the bullet after all bonuses are considered. Mine still deals 1530, though, which still leaves at least 600 damage unexplained.

Modifié par Gamemako, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:22 .

[Dracian]

IronRush wrote...

 Hi guys!

Mantis, Widow and Javelin (UR).
Maybe Kishock too (more usable, do not suffer shield gate problem).

Cleary we need some kind of buffs on these snipers to make it usable on gold/platinum.

classic snipers rifles, bolt action. Need very good aim and precision.

So... what do you think guys? What is the better way to balance these weapons now?

*Please, this topic is only to this discussion.

What I really need now is a rollback to the old school Tactical Cloak. This is because of that nerf that SR are now completely useless.

However, I'll agree with a Javelin buff. Like ignoring shield gate, for example. For the other weapons, I fine with them.

[Asebstos]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

As people have already pointed out, shieldgate is not the problem on Platinum. On Plat there are always big armored bosses around, that's what the single shot aka anti-materiel rifles should be dealing with. For those enemies shieldgate is mostly irrelevant.

That's right... the only problem is when the last guy alive is the Javelin/Widow guy... alot of times the Barriers/shields come back before the next shot can be placed on target. Watching a guy with a Javelin engage a Phantom at close quarters, who is the final enemy in a wave is... painful.

He should carry an acolyte as a backup. The weight is neglible (especially if he's already carrying a Javelin). I started doing this today and it is crazy helpful, especially against Phantoms.

Also, the acolyte can be fired from cloak without breaking it, provided you charged up first.

[megabeast37215]

Gamemako wrote...
I just tested HM. No equipment, no gear. If you went full weapon damage, use bronze Geth Troopers and a Katana X with barrel (and smart choke for easier testing). With HM as an additive, you deal 481.6 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.225 + 0.175) = 794.64 damage -- not enough to kill a Geth Trooper (825 HP). With HM as multiplier, you deal 481.6 * (1  + 0.25 + 0.225) * 1.175 = 834.673 damage, and the trooper dies. Every time you test, the Trooper will survive. If you took capacity for some reason, you can do the same thing with Assault Troopers and the Disciple X. The result will be identical: the trooper survives, and you see once again that HM is not a multiplier.

I cannot explain why you are getting unusual results. Clearly, something is being applied differently than one would expect. Brutes have no weakpoints, as you mentioned, so that shouldn't be the case.

Of course, I still have yet to see this occur, and testing of my own Javelin IV produced the expected result (though the resolution is not sufficient to see large swings this way or that).

//EDIT: Also, you added the 1.2x multi to PM -- I don't think that applies to the initial use, only to subsequent uses. I'd have to check myself to be sure, though.

//EDIT 2: GP's thread reports that geth weapon damage from Networked AI is a multiplier. I can test this to be certain. It does add considerably to the damage total, leaving you at 6907.43625 damage from the bullet after all bonuses are considered. Mine still deals 1530, though, which still leaves at least 600 damage unexplained.

Is it possible that the 25% from the Extended Barrel gets multiplied by the TC bonus? That would explain it.

[Gamemako]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Is it possible that the 25% from the Extended Barrel gets multiplied by the TC bonus? That would explain it.

I ended up double-checking TC's mechanics due to Shadow Strike being broken, and it's additive. Unless the EB itself is broken, it shouldn't be the case. I can test that pretty easily...

//EDIT: EB working as expect. Will test geth weapon bonus.

//EDIT 2: Geth weapon bonus is multiplicative.

Modifié par Gamemako, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:34 .

[Sihmm]

Gamemako wrote...

//EDIT: Also, you added the 1.2x multi to PM -- I don't think that applies to the initial use, only to subsequent uses. I'd have to check myself to be sure, though.

//EDIT 2: GP's thread reports that geth weapon damage from Networked AI is a multiplier. I can test this to be certain. It does add considerably to the damage total, leaving you at 6907.43625 damage from the bullet after all bonuses are considered. Mine still deals 1530, though, which still leaves at least 600 damage unexplained.

1 - Again, this was a modification I made to try and make my calculations fit the evidence I was being provided.  It was a while ago and I never finished the spreadsheet so I never checked out the assumptions I was making.

2 - Thanks for that link, I'd not seen the thread before.  Also thanks for the testing, I eagerly await the results!  Edit: ah, and there they are.

Corrected a .5 to 0.05 in the original spreadsheet Networked AI 1 power damage bonus (whoops).  That dips the results away from killing a Brute in one shot (something Ashen Earth had suggested was not possible, but I guess I assumed he didn't have a Javelin X - he does, or does now at least), unless you use a speculative value of .45 for Warp Ammo IV in which case the Brute will still die using multiplicative HM and additive GWB.

Added a sheet for additive HM: link.  Barring errors, assuming multiplicative geth weapon bonus, not quite enough damage for the gold ravager even if using speculative .45 for Warp Ammo IV and .4 for Power Amp IV.  Only obvious explanation would be bursting a sac and still hitting the centre mass for complete damage + a bonus from the sac.  However that would not explain the Brute, in which case I would tend to start suspecting the conditions of the kill (was a teammate casting a power from somewhere, perhaps?).

Edit: blergh, HM wasn't being included in the sum totals.  Actually the ravager can be one-shot in the conditions given.  The brute, not.

I suppose it's possible, though a bit farfetched, that certain enemies, weapons or powers (or combinations thereof) round up damage at a certain point to kill outright rather than leaving a low amount of health remaining.

Edit: bearing in mind once again that Ashen Earth is confident he can one-shot a Ravager on Gold using a Widow X and a weapon-damage focused GI build, by avoiding the sacs and shooting the blue dot on the body.  If, as your tests suggest, HM isn't multiplicative, I don't know how that's possible.

Modifié par Sihmm, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:45 .

[IronRush]

I was expecting Derek Hollan in our topic today.
Wish he is seeing it at least.

[Gamemako]

Sihmm wrote...

Added a sheet for additive HM: link.  Barring errors, assuming multiplicative geth weapon bonus, not quite enough damage for the gold ravager even if using speculative .45 for Warp Ammo IV and .4 for Power Amp IV.  Only obvious explanation would be bursting a sac and still hitting the centre mass for complete damage + a bonus from the sac.  However that would not explain the Brute, in which case I would tend to start suspecting the conditions of the kill (was a teammate casting a power from somewhere, perhaps?).

Edit: blergh, HM wasn't being included in the sum totals.  Actually the ravager can be one-shot in the conditions given.  The brute, not.

I suppose it's possible, though a bit farfetched, that certain enemies, weapons or powers (or combinations thereof) round up damage at a certain point to kill outright rather than leaving a low amount of health remaining.

You've also forgotten to add in the damage bonuses to Proxy Mine from the power itself, which can add up to a full 100% (400 damage). You're also still multiplying the proxy mine by a debuff that it doesn't get, though. Just went and tested to be sure, and the proxy mine doesn't get the debuff from itself. Your proxy mine should then add 100% and drop the 1.2 modifier, which gives it a net +178 damage. That leaves you at 8417.43625, with 9017.5 being the target (17.5 is what he could get if he used an AP mod -- realistically, he wouldn't be, but we're pulling out all the stops here).

That means he's almost exactly 600 damage behind the mark. Squeeze out the force multipliers, and it's the equivalent of 363.675 base damage. Out of base, that's 28.3%. So he needs 30% out of somewhere to get enough damage to one-shot a Brute. Is it possible that SR Amp IV is 45% and Warp IV is 50%? I suppose. Deliberate testing will be required to know for certain, however. As a side-note, getting 30% would make the AP mod moot; you'd recover 37 damage where you lost 32, so you'd be just over the 9050 mark.

Sihmm wrote...

Edit: bearing in mind once again that Ashen Earth is confident he can one-shot a Ravager on Gold using a Widow X and a weapon-damage focused GI build, by avoiding the sacs and shooting the blue dot on the body.  If, as your tests suggest, HM isn't multiplicative, I don't know how that's possible.

Uh-huh. No geth weapon bonus (Widow doesn't count) and 16% lower base damage makes that pretty highly unlikely. Basically, scratch off the Proxy Mine and Geth Weapon multipliers and look at that number; it's pretty close to what the Widow will do. Look feasible? Didn't think so. It's off by considerably more than megabeast is -- more than 80% of base, even after considering the max-damage proxy mine. Without weakpoints or double-hits, you'd need level IV equipment to have entirely different modes (i.e be multipliers) for that ever to be practical, 'cause I doubt an SR Amp IV adds +100% weapon damage.

Modifié par Gamemako, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:12 .