1320 réponses à ce sujet

[Impulse and Compulse]

Absolutely not.

For ****'s sake you people, stop focusing all of your damn time on guns that are moderately better than alternatives in a large amount of situations and start putting it on the massive amount of guns that are completely underpowered. Nerfing one gun doesn't make the game more interesting, since there's nothing stopping you from using the other weapons. Buffing a gun makes the game a hell of a lot more fun and interesting, since it totally makes you rethink the way you play.

And the DPS isn't that big of a factor. The freaking Reegar has a massive DPS, but I can't use the damn thing because the only class that I found I can do well with it happens to be incredibly bugged. The biggest stopper is armor; the claymore X does 206 damage per shot, while the Piranha does 88.7. Armor on gold takes off 50 points of damage per shot, and I'm pretty sure platinum is even higher. Unless you're using the proper mods, gear, and consumable equipments, the piranha exchanges lighter weight and a slightly higher DPS for drastically shortened range and minimal effectiveness against armor.

[MChang1984]

death_for_sale wrote...

With the buff to damage on July 18:

Piranha Shotgun
-Damage increased from [63.6-79.6] to [70.9-88.7]

The damage per pellet is now 221.75 (RoF 150 * Damage 88.7(X) / 60). You can then multiply this by the number of Pellets to get your DPS.

8 * 221.75 = 1774 DPS

Now the current DPS of the Claymore is 1648 at Level X. Yes, the Claymore has a tighter spread, but with Smart Choke, cover accuracy, and/or class Accuracy bonuses, you are looking at a weapon that is beyond Devastating on Gold and still very overpowered on Platinum.

~Edit~

It was pointed out to me that sustained DPS (DPS factoring in reload time) only increases the disparity between the two weapons.

Gamako said....

The sustained DPS for uncanceled/canceled Claymore fire is 470 / 833 DPS. The sustained DPS for the uncanceled/canceled Piranha is 984 / 1338.6. Seriously, these aren't even close. The Piranha is damage king,
and it's pretty lightweight to boot. That is a serious problem.

Thanks Gamemako


When you add in RoF boosts and/or damage boosts from abilities, you can melt bosses with this weapon faster than any other currently available. This is also a relatively light weapon for this amount of DPS, ranging from 1.5 - .9. It is perfectly capable of being carried by caster classes with minimal CD reduction.

I propose returning it to it's original damage [63.6-79.6] and increasing the weight considerably to keep caster/power based classes from using it without more severe CD consequences, say [2.0 - 1.4] which is the current weight for GPS/Graal.

I love the Piranha, but seriously ever match I play now, I see that everyone is carrying it. I use it on all of my adepts and vanguards because it has no true drawbacks with cover boosts and smart choke. On my Turian Soldier and Destroyer, it is a boss killing machine at long range. I don't want to even get started on how well it works on my GI.

You need to address this now, because it is already getting out of hand.

~Edit~

Did some quick shots with Piranha and Claymore on a GI. Now outside of the the Smart Choke on the weapons, the GI gets a 15% accuracy boost with Hunter Mode. You get a similar boost from firing from cover, as well as a recoil reduction, but I did not fire from cover here. this is about 25 Meters...

Piranha



Claymore



When you factor in classes that get a much larger ACC boost....

I'm all for buffs... it's people like you that want to nerf weapons until they do 1 damage. WTF is wrong with you?

[Kyerea]

@MChang God only knows what's wrong with them.

[rdnanez]

op shut the **** up.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...


Could you post the calculations you used to get to those numbers? I don't think they look right.

Lv. X Claymore Damage (with HCB) is 2060. DPS with RCs included is 1041.3. Against armor, that's 839. Could otherwise be modified with shredder, but that's another story.

I only have a Lv. III Pirahna (with HCB), doing the math I have (15.3 damage increase per level, 15.3 x 7 = 107.1, 107.1 + 561 = 668.1, 1059.1 / 561 x 668.1 = 1261. I was on by a rough shot, which was an estimate.)

Shotguns that have a lot of damage always have a more impressive DPS than their actual workings. Expect at least 1/4 of your shots to be off target, so drop the DPS by 25%, from 1261 to about 1000. Then you have to think that it will be worse than that at maximum RPM, where your boomshot is bouncing everywhere and so are your pellets. With an automatic shotgun or one with High-RoF, you don't get the time to line up your shots if you are going at max RoF. Looking at it that way, the claymore is superior, in that you are capable of putting accurate shots on target and achieving that RoF.

do the math without mods.

Claymore damage is 833, with 631 against armor. Expecting that between 1-2 pellets go stray, that's a damage of 728.88 - 624.75, with 552.13 - 473.25 against armor

Pirahna damage is 1003.9, with 438 against armor Expecting that between 2-3 pellets go stray (seeing as it's full auto with a fair bit of recoil), that's 752.93 - 627.43, with 328.5 - 109.5 against armor.

As this shows, the Pirahna clearly has disadvantage when facing armor, something the Claymore doesn't have nearly as much of. This in an inaccurate test, as there's no way of knowing the full effect recoil will have on pellet spread in a combat scenario at all ranges. But look at it this way: The claymore will be scoring the same damage at nearly twice the range of the pirahna. Plus, as I said before, the claymore has greater ammo efficiency, which is added onto it's list of bonuses. The Claymore clearly has the more advantages than shortcomings over the Pirahna.

Someone here is delusional... Max out damage, and on gold, a GI needs 2 cloak cycles or 4 shots, 2 of them cloaked, to take down an atlas. Piranha needs a little over 1 clip, or 1.5 cloak cycle. There is no comparing the two of them. I'm a huge claymore fan, but the piranha puts it into the dirt, in pretty much every category...

I'm not sure if you're playing the same game that I am.  A little over 1 clip to take down an Atlas?  Please provide the numbers you are using to make this claim...

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 25 juillet 2012 - 09:56 .

[Zjarcal]

At the very least, it's weight should be increased. It's kind of ridiculous just how light it is. A weight increase with a moderate decrease to the rate of fire would be the best idea imo. The weapon would still kick ass anyway.

I really love the Piranha and the concept behind it, but I simply can't deny it's more than a bit crazy at the moment.

[DrakeFZX3]

I'm more for buffing underused guns tbh.

[jobotdestroy]

Well, it's as good as nerfed. Everytime i see a thread like this its nerfed a week or so later. I'll be happy when borderlands 2 is released. These nerfs are killing this game for me. I already stopped playing me3 for about a month. The new dlc got me playing and having fun on it again. The things I enjoy the most people are wanting nerfed. Guess me3 will make a good game to trade towards BL2. Especially if this keeps up. Sad I really liked this game alot too.

[Battlesnipe]

People ask for nerfs then turn around and **** about em.

[shards7]

[quote]death_for_sale wrote...

With the buff to damage on July 18:

Piranha Shotgun
-Damage increased from [63.6-79.6] to [70.9-88.7]

The damage per pellet is now 221.75 (RoF 150 * Damage 88.7(X) / 60). You can then multiply this by the number of Pellets to get your DPS.

8 * 221.75 = 1774 DPS










ummm...are you sure it isnt 8x63.6 damage?  It sure as hell doesnt feel overpowered like that of your math.   but, eh, im no mathmatics guy or anything (im really not, and not being sarcastic at all...)

Modifié par jamesbrown3, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:02 .

[UserUnknown85]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...


Could you post the calculations you used to get to those numbers? I don't think they look right.

Lv. X Claymore Damage (with HCB) is 2060. DPS with RCs included is 1041.3. Against armor, that's 839. Could otherwise be modified with shredder, but that's another story.

I only have a Lv. III Pirahna (with HCB), doing the math I have (15.3 damage increase per level, 15.3 x 7 = 107.1, 107.1 + 561 = 668.1, 1059.1 / 561 x 668.1 = 1261. I was on by a rough shot, which was an estimate.)

Shotguns that have a lot of damage always have a more impressive DPS than their actual workings. Expect at least 1/4 of your shots to be off target, so drop the DPS by 25%, from 1261 to about 1000. Then you have to think that it will be worse than that at maximum RPM, where your boomshot is bouncing everywhere and so are your pellets. With an automatic shotgun or one with High-RoF, you don't get the time to line up your shots if you are going at max RoF. Looking at it that way, the claymore is superior, in that you are capable of putting accurate shots on target and achieving that RoF.

do the math without mods.

Claymore damage is 833, with 631 against armor. Expecting that between 1-2 pellets go stray, that's a damage of 728.88 - 624.75, with 552.13 - 473.25 against armor

Pirahna damage is 1003.9, with 438 against armor Expecting that between 2-3 pellets go stray (seeing as it's full auto with a fair bit of recoil), that's 752.93 - 627.43, with 328.5 - 109.5 against armor.

As this shows, the Pirahna clearly has disadvantage when facing armor, something the Claymore doesn't have nearly as much of. This in an inaccurate test, as there's no way of knowing the full effect recoil will have on pellet spread in a combat scenario at all ranges. But look at it this way: The claymore will be scoring the same damage at nearly twice the range of the pirahna. Plus, as I said before, the claymore has greater ammo efficiency, which is added onto it's list of bonuses. The Claymore clearly has the more advantages than shortcomings over the Pirahna.

Someone here is delusional... Max out damage, and on gold, a GI needs 2 cloak cycles or 4 shots, 2 of them cloaked, to take down an atlas. Piranha needs a little over 1 clip, or 1.5 cloak cycle. There is no comparing the two of them. I'm a huge claymore fan, but the piranha puts it into the dirt, in pretty much every category...

I'm not sure if you're playing the same game that I am.  A little over 1 clip to take down an Atlas?  Please provide the numbers you are using to make this claim...

If I knew the numbers, I would have given them. Notice how I gave an example instead? You can try it if you want. GI going for max weapon damage everywhere, gear and consumables maxed for shotgun damage. Cloak, shoot a proxy mine and start firing. Reload-cancelling is pretty important of course. You'll get your answer.

[shards7]

Above post, I'm not 100% sure how to do the whole quote thing, Im asking the bottom question. lol sorry.



*MY* above post, 2 posts above lol too slow.

Modifié par jamesbrown3, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .

[Kenadian]

Zjarcal wrote...

At the very least, it's weight should be increased. It's kind of ridiculous just how light it is. A weight increase with a moderate decrease to the rate of fire would be the best idea imo. The weapon would still kick ass anyway.

I really love the Piranha and the concept behind it, but I simply can't deny it's more than a bit crazy at the moment.

If there's anything that should be done to it, it's just to remove the buff that was given to it last week. People asking for more can shove their heads where the sun never shines.

[Gamemako]

Mindlog wrote...

Why does the GPS get homing, stagger and decent damage?

Because it only gets decent damage and has slow-moving projectiles rather than hitscan. The DPS is not fantastic; it's generally on par with any old pistol in the storm.

UKStory135 wrote...

It is a secondary weapon, not a primary one.  Anyone who tries to use this a primary weapon will probably be in spectator mode for most of the time after wave 3, and if they aren't then they are good enough to use whatever weapon they want in the first place.

Going with no on that one. I use it as a primary on everything from Paladin to Kroguard and I melt faces with it. I hated it at first, but I learned to handle the thing and now I use it on almost everyone (though it is a secondary on my Destroyer).

UKStory135 wrote...

...the headshot elimination patch...

There are some of us who think that should be changed, you know. Eliminating them never made sense; they should have just made the damage 150% instead of 250%.

UKStory135 wrote...

4) Why do balancers insist on comparing everything to the Claymore?  Is the goal of balance really to make everything in the game just slightly crappier than the Claymore?

Convenient point of reference. It's a popular and powerful weapon, but few argue that it is unbalanced. It is also quite heavy, so there's no arguing that it is weaker because it is light.

usctrojanbulldog wrote...

My experience tells me this picture isn't right. Is he really using a Piranha? Could I mimic these results with say, a Talon and switch to my Piranha? I've just never experienced this type of spread cluster at this distance with this weapon.

8 pellets, so it's not a Talon. Has to be a shotgun, and he has a Piranha, so he can't be carrying a second shotgun.

GroverA125 wrote...

Lv. X Claymore Damage (with HCB) is 2060. DPS with RCs included is 1041.3. Against armor, that's 839. Could otherwise be modified with shredder, but that's another story.

I only have a Lv. III Pirahna (with HCB), doing the math I have (15.3 damage increase per level, 15.3 x 7 = 107.1, 107.1 + 561 = 668.1, 1059.1 / 561 x 668.1 = 1261. I was on by a rough shot, which was an estimate.)

Shotguns that have a lot of damage always have a more impressive DPS than their actual workings. Expect at least 1/4 of your shots to be off target, so drop the DPS by 25%, from 1261 to about 1000. Then you have to think
that it will be worse than that at maximum RPM, where your boomshot is bouncing everywhere and so are your pellets. With an automatic shotgun or one with High-RoF, you don't get the time to line up your shots if you are going at max RoF. Looking at it that way, the claymore is superior, in that you are capable of putting accurate shots on target and achieving that RoF.

*Shakes head*

First, you misunderstand the mechanics entirely. The barrel is an additive bonus. It goes with all of the other bonuses. For example, a Gethfiltrator specced for weapon damage using HM will have 40%  core weapon damage bonus there, which adds to the 25% for 65% total. Since the bonuses you get with any weapon are standard (not weapon-specific), it is totally pointless to consider them unless there is some specific advantage for one class (this is only really applicable to SMGs who get either barrel or penetration). Use base numbers for comparison.

Considering armor reduction from base damage is also a losing proposition. Weapon damage is multiplied before the armor DR is deducted. If you're a Geth Infiltrator, you're getting over 300% of base weapon damage, so even if you have no armor penetration at all, the weapon is losing 50 of 266 damage per pellet -- this is less than 19% compared to your base estimate of 56.4% loss. If you're carrying an AP ammo III, it's 12.5 out of 266 -- less than 5% difference.

Now, you've also got your numbers wrong. The Claymore X is 1648 total (206 per pellet), while the Piranha X is 709.6 total (88.7 per pellet). Claymore is 1 shot, 64 RPM, 2.57 reload, 0.405 rc ratio, Piranha is 8 shot, 150 RPM, 2.57 reload, 0.405 ratio.

CitizenThom wrote...

You forget the accuracy issue. The weapon itself is balanced just fine. Some class abilities over-synergise with it perhaps, but that's the result of the class abilities, not the guns themselves.

No, I think the difference in accuracy is overstated except when not using a choke, and I think you've vastly overstating the need to shoot at very long ranges. You can strip off a Banshee's barrier fast enough that you don't have you worry about her grabbing you; she loses charge.

The weapon currently is equivalent to a Scimitar with twice the damage and 50% higher ROF. If you did that to the Scimitar, everyone would think you were off your freaking rocker. It's just not balanced.

Modifié par Gamemako, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[Zjarcal]

Kenadian wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

At the very least, it's weight should be increased. It's kind of ridiculous just how light it is. A weight increase with a moderate decrease to the rate of fire would be the best idea imo. The weapon would still kick ass anyway.

I really love the Piranha and the concept behind it, but I simply can't deny it's more than a bit crazy at the moment.

If there's anything that should be done to it, it's just to remove the buff that was given to it last week. People asking for more can shove their heads where the sun never shines.

Well it's a good thing I like my own ass. :3

[Kenadian]

Zjarcal wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

At the very least, it's weight should be increased. It's kind of ridiculous just how light it is. A weight increase with a moderate decrease to the rate of fire would be the best idea imo. The weapon would still kick ass anyway.

I really love the Piranha and the concept behind it, but I simply can't deny it's more than a bit crazy at the moment.

If there's anything that should be done to it, it's just to remove the buff that was given to it last week. People asking for more can shove their heads where the sun never shines.

Well it's a good thing I like my own ass. :3

Oh you're kinky.

[TacoknightIV]

God damnit nerfers, just ****** off would you? STOP RUINING WEAPONS.

[Computron2000]

jamesbrown3 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

With the buff to damage on July 18:

Piranha Shotgun
-Damage increased from [63.6-79.6] to [70.9-88.7]

The damage per pellet is now 221.75 (RoF 150 * Damage 88.7(X) / 60). You can then multiply this by the number of Pellets to get your DPS.

8 * 221.75 = 1774 DPS

ummm...are you sure it isnt 8x63.6 damage?  It sure as hell doesnt feel overpowered like that of your math.   but, eh, im no mathmatics guy or anything (im really not, and not being sarcastic at all...)

The OP is correct. You need to read what he is saying (and insulting people when you KNOW your maths is in the drain is terrible).

63.6 damage is from Piranha I before the buff. After the buff which happened about a day after it came out, it became 88.7 at Piranha X.

The total damage is 221.75 because the piranha is an auto weapon. This means it fires continously hence RoF is multiplied by the Piranha X damage.

Modifié par Computron2000, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .

[FlamboyantRoy]

Modifié par FlamboyantRoy, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .

[Meri-Em]

Hero 4 Rent wrote...

Huh. Folks seem to be one step removed from calling a full blown witchhunt on the original post here. I realize this will hardly earn me any points from the enraged mob but.. the op does touch on a noteworthy fact here-- the Piranha is flipping *strong*.

If it is in fact OP or not, I can't rightly say. But I can say in my experience that unless somebody is a spot-on-crack-shot with the Claymore, i.e. never missing a foe, the performance between that and the Piranha shotgun is not remotely close. The upside to using the massively heavy (yet oddly tiny) CM shotgun is that when you pull the trigger in front of bad things, they are supposed to go away. If you miss, then all bets are off. (Also see the holy law of Claymore no. 1: Thou shalt not miss.) Big price, big risk, big reward--and not a weapon you typically slap into the hands of any power based type, given the obvious weight constraints.

The Piranha on the other hand, can rip out just as much damage on the fly, while hip firing/seeking cover in a matter of moments. Yes, it takes longer to empty the whole clip-- but not a whole heck of a lot. And for all the cries of accuracy, spread and whatnot don't make a whole lot of sense to me, as the weapon is designed to be a roomsweeper, and as such at short to medium range it melts things in a hail of staggering buckshot.

So. Piranha deals amazing damage, accuracy is pretty much a nonissue, useless at long range, lightweight, with a pretty solid clip size.

The Claymore deals amazing damage, accuracy is paramount, reasonably solid at mid-long range with a grip attachment, extremely heavy, with relatively small clip size.

Folks can sharpen their pitchforks all they like, but after hammering Platinum difficulty the last week, the obvious results are pretty difficult to deny.. The Piranha has, simply put, far more potential for less invested effort. The Claymore is great, and I shall not stop using it any time soon, but I must admit that generally speaking the Piranha is a more effective weapon that more character classes can access.

Do I think this calls for a nerf? Nah. But I think it calls for some recognition: it makes most of the other shotguns lackluster in comparison.

I mean, this was just watching the results of the Piranha and one of the most potent shotguns of the pack going to work in various matches. Other noteworthy rare shotguns such as the Geth Plasma shotgun, the Graal are still quite solid and fun to use and the Asari shogun has it's niche as well, especially with the power of reload canceling. The Wraith and the Talon still feel pretty comparable to the Piranha, but not as powerful, certainly slower-- and they are ultra rare, which is unfortunate. Takes forever and a day to build those guys up, and anybody saying otherwise is cheating, or selling something.

Those are the 'good' shotguns. The others won't likely see much attention outside of Bronze and the occasional Silver difficulty settings, which is a shame.

If the Piranha is to be the new shiny example of awesome for shotgun foolery (aside from stubborn fools like myself that prefer the single shot variant) it would be nice if the other shotguns were elevated near its status. Rather than reducing the Piranha to a molten slag of garbage, I'd much prefer devs to buff the old toys so we can lovingly use them alongside the new.

Also, holy heck, apologies for the wall of text.

A little long but you are bang on.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...


Could you post the calculations you used to get to those numbers? I don't think they look right.

Lv. X Claymore Damage (with HCB) is 2060. DPS with RCs included is 1041.3. Against armor, that's 839. Could otherwise be modified with shredder, but that's another story.

I only have a Lv. III Pirahna (with HCB), doing the math I have (15.3 damage increase per level, 15.3 x 7 = 107.1, 107.1 + 561 = 668.1, 1059.1 / 561 x 668.1 = 1261. I was on by a rough shot, which was an estimate.)

Shotguns that have a lot of damage always have a more impressive DPS than their actual workings. Expect at least 1/4 of your shots to be off target, so drop the DPS by 25%, from 1261 to about 1000. Then you have to think that it will be worse than that at maximum RPM, where your boomshot is bouncing everywhere and so are your pellets. With an automatic shotgun or one with High-RoF, you don't get the time to line up your shots if you are going at max RoF. Looking at it that way, the claymore is superior, in that you are capable of putting accurate shots on target and achieving that RoF.

do the math without mods.

Claymore damage is 833, with 631 against armor. Expecting that between 1-2 pellets go stray, that's a damage of 728.88 - 624.75, with 552.13 - 473.25 against armor

Pirahna damage is 1003.9, with 438 against armor Expecting that between 2-3 pellets go stray (seeing as it's full auto with a fair bit of recoil), that's 752.93 - 627.43, with 328.5 - 109.5 against armor.

As this shows, the Pirahna clearly has disadvantage when facing armor, something the Claymore doesn't have nearly as much of. This in an inaccurate test, as there's no way of knowing the full effect recoil will have on pellet spread in a combat scenario at all ranges. But look at it this way: The claymore will be scoring the same damage at nearly twice the range of the pirahna. Plus, as I said before, the claymore has greater ammo efficiency, which is added onto it's list of bonuses. The Claymore clearly has the more advantages than shortcomings over the Pirahna.

Someone here is delusional... Max out damage, and on gold, a GI needs 2 cloak cycles or 4 shots, 2 of them cloaked, to take down an atlas. Piranha needs a little over 1 clip, or 1.5 cloak cycle. There is no comparing the two of them. I'm a huge claymore fan, but the piranha puts it into the dirt, in pretty much every category...

I'm not sure if you're playing the same game that I am.  A little over 1 clip to take down an Atlas?  Please provide the numbers you are using to make this claim...

If I knew the numbers, I would have given them. Notice how I gave an example instead? You can try it if you want. GI going for max weapon damage everywhere, gear and consumables maxed for shotgun damage. Cloak, shoot a proxy mine and start firing. Reload-cancelling is pretty important of course. You'll get your answer.

Well now you're adding in way more conditions than you originally specified.  You initially made the claim based on a GI maxed for damage using the Piranha.  Now you're adding in gear and consumables plus proxy mines.  I imagine we're talking Level IV consumables here?