1320 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthVarner]

Gamemako wrote...

Kyerea wrote...

Wait, the Piranha can take down an Atlas in Gold/Plat in one clip? ****, my Piranha X with EB and Shredder Mod being fired from four feet away on a Geth Hunter must be a dud then.

Apparently, since a clip to a Gethfiltrator is 22,000 damage. It won't take out a Gold Atlas in one clip, no. It will, however, take one down in about 6.6 seconds (2 clips and 2 proxy mines).

Yeah.  You know, if you can't do math.  I love these armchair analysts that can't do any math and apparently don't understand the reality of any situation.

The GI can't dump the entire Piranha clip within one cloak cycle.  It fires fast, but not that fast.  That damage total requires ALL shots to be in the cloak window, which can't be done.  Furthermore, that's an unmodified damage total; most people will use smart choke and barrel mods with AP ammo.  All well and good, but vs. armor you lose a quarter of your damage (80 damage / pellet, 50 armor reduction on Gold, AP III gets that reduced by 60% to 20 or 1/4 of each pellet).  Lastly, you have to do so from extreme CQC to get all pellets on target.  But hey, don't let reality get in your way!  I'm sure that hypothetical Atlas's driver is getting Taco Bell, and it'll just sit there while you do this.

How about a real scenario instead.  Let's assume that you cloaked and took 2 seconds to get to this range, and you took no damage while firing because you staggered the Atlas.  Your cloak CD is probably 3.5s+ at least now, because of the movement involved, maybe closer to 4, and it isn't up.  Angry Atlas wants to dissassemble you and then stomp on the pieces.  Get hit twice by anything now, and you're dead.  So maybe you Geth Hop and get super lucky, avoid a shot or two.  Then you cloak again, must move again (enemies remember where you were when you cloaked, and keep hitting that area) and open fire again.  PM is stacking now, but armor is reducing your damage.  Frankly at this point I'd be amazed if you got another stagger off, so you probably have died.  

Get out of here.  Go back to Bronze.  You and I clearly don't play the same game.

[Rifneno]

Gamemako wrote...

2 clips, as I said above. Gold Atlas now has 23000 armor, not 21094; it was buffed. Gethfiltrator has a lot of bonuses: networked AI (22.5%) hunter mode (17.5%), cloak (80%), then 25% from barrel, 15% from gear, 40%? from level IV ammo, 40%? from level 4 amp. That's a total of 240% additive, then 20% multiplier from Proxy Mine. Therefore, each shot deals 2895.168 damage. 8 of those are 23161.344. You'll get 7 of 8 shots out while in the 2.5-second Cloak window, so the last loses 80%*1.2*709.6 damage. Ergo, total damage is 22480.128. That's all of the shield in the first clip without even adding in the 1500 damage from Proxy Mine.

I'm sorry, I must have misheard you.  I thought implied we should judge a gun based on the best case scenario with the single highest damage character, debuffs, using FOURTH level consumables.  But that can't be because that would be the stupidest thing in the history of written communications.  So what did you really say?

[Core_Commander]

This gun is great on every class. Absolutely devastating on turian soldier and destroyer, and, surprise, beyond amazing on geth infiltrator (the class that breaks all guns).

2-3 people are using Piranha in most Gold matches I see. Of course BW will take notice. Don't like it, don't contribute by not using it?


...and all that even before the Reegar even got touched... ah well, all in due time I guess.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[Meri-Em]

Rifneno wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

2 clips, as I said above. Gold Atlas now has 23000 armor, not 21094; it was buffed. Gethfiltrator has a lot of bonuses: networked AI (22.5%) hunter mode (17.5%), cloak (80%), then 25% from barrel, 15% from gear, 40%? from level IV ammo, 40%? from level 4 amp. That's a total of 240% additive, then 20% multiplier from Proxy Mine. Therefore, each shot deals 2895.168 damage. 8 of those are 23161.344. You'll get 7 of 8 shots out while in the 2.5-second Cloak window, so the last loses 80%*1.2*709.6 damage. Ergo, total damage is 22480.128. That's all of the shield in the first clip without even adding in the 1500 damage from Proxy Mine.

I'm sorry, I must have misheard you.  I thought implied we should judge a gun based on the best case scenario with the single highest damage character, debuffs, using FOURTH level consumables.  But that can't be because that would be the stupidest thing in the history of written communications.  So what did you really say?

It could be even worse! Someone else could debuff the atlas (warp, cryo blast, tact. scan and so on) or help by also shooting at it.

[CC-Tron]

Chealec wrote...

Weight is the one thing that shouldn't probably be adjusted much, if at all ... the fact that it's lightweight makes it a very good choice on the Turian Soldier; keeps your marksmanship cooldown under control which means you're about as effective, overall, as a Destroyer.

This means that the Piranha is very, very good on the TS (amongst other classes) - nerf the weight too much and it becomes a Destroyer/Demolisher only weapon.

Other aspects I'm not so sure about - I'm not quite sure why the damage was buffed on it really though...

The pirahna is heavy enough as it is. It's heavier than the scimitar. You can't bring a phalanx as a second weapon and maintain 200%CD without adding pistol LW materials.

[Kenadian]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

Another who has fallen into the hole of "this class doesn't work on it's own, therefore it is useless".

You do realise that you are playing a co-op game? You know, where you play with other people? With whatever classes they want?

You're playing a damn team game, work as one to work better. Biotics and tech don't work as well when used solo, but they get monumental rewards for working as a team. Put the two together and what've you got? Using something solo is a complete and inaccurate scenario. It's almost like this whole "ideal scenario" area. You're not going to go out and repeatedly play alone, are you? No, you'll play with a team, so take them into account. Just because something's good on solo and something's bad on solo, doesn't mean that as a team, they'll be good or bad.

Any my point flies over your head.

A solo weapons class can tear up just about everything on their own.

A biotic? Peon units at best.

So screw the team mentality until I feel like I can someway contribute to the DPS a bit more.

Just saying, I didn't write that.

Modifié par Kenadian, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[TeamLexana]

Can't tell if OP is serious or just stupid, lol.

[Rebel_Raven]

Kenadian wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

Another who has fallen into the hole of "this class doesn't work on it's own, therefore it is useless".

You do realise that you are playing a co-op game? You know, where you play with other people? With whatever classes they want?

You're playing a damn team game, work as one to work better. Biotics and tech don't work as well when used solo, but they get monumental rewards for working as a team. Put the two together and what've you got? Using something solo is a complete and inaccurate scenario. It's almost like this whole "ideal scenario" area. You're not going to go out and repeatedly play alone, are you? No, you'll play with a team, so take them into account. Just because something's good on solo and something's bad on solo, doesn't mean that as a team, they'll be good or bad.

Any my point flies over your head.

A solo weapons class can tear up just about everything on their own.

A biotic? Peon units at best.

So screw the team mentality until I feel like I can someway contribute to the DPS a bit more.

Just saying, I didn't write that.

Sorry, I must've messed up cleaning up the quote. I'll go back and edit.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:23 .

[Shezo]

Well, piranha will be nerfed, that's for sure.
I only hope it wont be really severe nerf.
Bring it dps to 1300-1400 without reducing firing speed (less damge per pellet, thus making it less effective against armor) and change weight to 1.2 or so and we're set.
We'll get very good but not op shottie.

[neteng101]

death_for_sale wrote...

I'm completely serious and I have presented a logical, well reasoned argument. I wish I could say the same of others.

Arguments are senseless without proof...  post a video of you beating Platinum, topping the scoreboard, with a Krogan/Asari/Drell/Batarian/Quarian/Salarian using the Piranha.  Until you can do that, its just a lot of hot air.

The weapon is rather limited to who can use it well already.

Modifié par neteng101, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:58 .

[bogsters23]

This game is co-op i do not see why we have to nerf the good guns and why piranha is compared to a claymore shotgun. i never liked the claymore shotgun i tried it a few times never bothered to learn reload cancel. i wish bioware nerf reload cancel so let see which is a better gun. it's good that bioware released a light shotgun that we can try on all classes because of it's weight. this gun came out for the caster classes you can not compare it to the claymore coz it weighs a ton. This game can not be balanced by nerfing weapons cause there will always be a superior class like the GI who gets bonuses for weapon damage, rate of fire and accuracy. it just peaked my interest in the game again that i could try on my other builds like the turian soldier which i have not played in a long time. why do nerfers ruin the fun for other players. Why don't the nerfers just play together using soldiers with predators with there own private game where everything is nerfed. we need this gun to make platinum runs faster so we can get more credit to buy more packs.

[TeamLexana]

death_for_sale wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

Can't tell if OP is serious or just stupid, lol.

I'm completely serious and I have presented a logical, well reasoned argument. I wish I could say the same of others.

Not really. Saying something is OP because you dump bonuses on top of bonuses on top of bonuses makes little to no sense with a N7 Destroyer, a Turian Solider, or a freaking GETH INFILTRATOR of all things. Those three classes could make a shuriken or an incisor look OP.

Give the Piranha to a Shadow or Slayer on Gold, go up against some Banshee's, Brutes, and Ravangers - with no back up, so you'll have no teamates tossing anything with debuffs or even just helping you tank like AT ALL and see OP it is then. No missles either, the point is to test the gun.

Keep on trolling though, lol.

[Rebel_Raven]

bogsters23 wrote...

This game is co-op i do not see why we have to nerf the good guns and why piranha is compared to a claymore shotgun. i never liked the claymore shotgun i tried it a few times never bothered to learn reload cancel. i wish bioware nerf reload cancel so let see which is a better gun. it's good that bioware released a light shotgun that we can try on all classes because of it's weight. this gun came out for the caster classes you can not compare it to the claymore coz it weighs a ton. This game can not be balanced by nerfing weapons cause there will always be a superior class like the GI who gets bonuses for weapon damage, rate of fire and accuracy. it just peaked my interest in the game again that i could try on my other builds like the turian soldier which i have not played in a long time. why do nerfers ruin the fun for other players. Why don't the nerfers just play together using soldiers with predators with there own private game where everything is nerfed. we need this gun to make platinum runs faster so we can get more credit to buy more packs.

The point of it all is so we can all kill things with relative equality, but diffirent ways. It lends to greater variety instead of everyone using the same damned gun over and over again.

It may be co-op but it sucks when someone can do more for the team than you. If it doesn't feel that way, it probably will in time.

But I'd rather see buffs to make more guns/powers viable than nerfs. I'd like to feel I can contribute to a fightno matter what class i play.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[Lord Rosario]

All this has a serious trade off for it's range. Compare it to the Reeger instead of the Claymore. Single shot, long range, shot gun vs multifire very close range shotgun is NOT a goot comparison.

[Gamemako]

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Yeah.  You know, if you can't do math.  I love these armchair analysts that can't do any math and apparently don't understand the reality of any situation.[/quote]

Oh, do tell!

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

The GI can't dump the entire Piranha clip within one cloak cycle.[/quote]

Since you mentioned it, I actually was wrong. I forgot to include the ROF buff from Hunter Mode, and wrongly eliminated the last round from the TC buff. Quite simply, the last round will fire after 2.4348 seconds, and your damage buff lasts 2.5 seconds. So yeah, add 700 damage back to my previous calculations, because you actually do fire all 8 rounds in Cloak's damage window.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

That damage total requires ALL shots to be in the cloak window, which can't be done.[/quote]

It can be done, and it will be done (the weapon is fully automatic, so you don't even have to worry about click errors). 23,161.344 damage, right there.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Furthermore, that's an unmodified damage total; most people will use smart choke and barrel mods with AP ammo. All well and good, but vs. armor you lose a quarter of your damage (80 damage / pellet, 50 armor reduction on Gold, AP III gets that reduced by 60% to 20 or 1/4 of each pellet).[/quote]

Once again, you are incorrect. I included a barrel in those calculations. And no, I didn't include armor reduction. AP ammo III cuts the armor damage reduction by 70%, not 60%, and that reduction is applied after the multiplying from everything else. So if you want to adjust for armor damage, fine: (50*0.3) armor DR * 8 pellets/round * 8 rounds = 960 damage per clip. So to that 23,161.344 damage, if 100% of it were against armor, you'd lose 960 and be left with 22,191.344 damage -- still more than 22,000 damage.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Lastly, you have to do so from extreme CQC to get all pellets on target.[/quote]

Others have suitably refuted that already. You have to be within 40 meters or so to hit all pellets on target of a huge-ass Atlas with a Gethfiltrator.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

How about a real scenario instead. [/quote]

Oh, this should be rich.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Let's assume that you cloaked and took 2 seconds to get to this range...[/quote]

Lol @ cloaking from across the map.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

...and you took no damage while firing because you staggered the Atlas.[/quote]

Well, yes, I'm not doing damage if I'm dead.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Your cloak CD is probably 3.5s+ at least now, because of the movement involved, maybe closer to 4, and it isn't up.[/quote]

If I used 100% of my time in Cloak, I get a cooldown of 3.64 seconds. The Piranha weighs 90%, I have 40% cooldown bonus (30 core, 10 from Networked AI). That's 150%, then 25% bonus from rank 2 TC. 10 / (1 + 1.5 + 0.25) = 3.64. So yeah, pretty unlikely there, chief.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Get hit twice by anything now, and you're dead.[/quote]

Of course, someone has to explain to me why I'm being shot in the first place, and by whom, since Mr. Angry Atlas is staggered and unable to shoot me and I'm taking cover when and wherever I please.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

So maybe you Geth Hop and get super lucky, avoid a shot or two.  Then you cloak again, must move again (enemies remember where you were when you cloaked, and keep hitting that area) and open fire again.  PM is stacking now, but armor is reducing your damage.  Frankly at this point I'd be amazed if you got another stagger off, so you probably have died.[/quote]

It's so cute, it's almost like he's never seen an Infiltrator before in his life.

[quote]DarthVarner wrote...

Get out of here.  Go back to Bronze.  You and I clearly don't play the same game.[/quote]

You clearly don't pay attention to anything you do, bucko.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

I'm sorry, I must have misheard you.  I thought implied we should judge a gun based on the best case scenario with the single highest damage character, debuffs, using FOURTH level consumables.  But that can't be because that would be the stupidest thing in the history of written communications.  So what did you really say?[/quote]

First, I said nothing of the sort; I simply answered the question of how many clips it would take to kill a Gold-level Atlas. The answer, as I demonstrated, is two.

Second, because equipment is mostly based on percentages, it's very difficult to have a weapon that can be judged unequally with and without equipment. Shotguns are the most likely candidate, since armor DR is the only flat number added in, but I figured that the use of armor-reducing mods or ammo was pretty well settled for shotguns at this point (since failure to do so means the loss of 400 damage per shot).

Third, your poor attempts at insulting me over something I did not say, did not imply, and whose topic did not even address at all is rather pathetic.

Modifié par Gamemako, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:51 .

[-Sxx-]

Make it an N7 weapon. Whining solved, even though loads of people have one already. 

Modifié par Dest1ny, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:50 .

[hippojoe]

just remember that to get that dps you have to be out in the open for quite some time

the claymore does 3x more damage per shot than the piranha, and you can just pop out of cover or around a corner, shoot, then go back to safety

then i do not recall any recoil with the claymore, but that might just be the single shot aspect of it

also, if you reload cancel, the sustained dps difference is not that much at all,

[MrFuddyDuddy]

Hmm subpar RoF on non Destroyer Turian Sol and GI. Second least accurate shotgun next to the Reegar, so probably not. Did't they just buff the Piranha last weak, don't like using it don't problem solved

[Father_Jerusalem]

Some people just won't be satisfied until the only acceptable weapon is a Predator 1.

OP seems to be one of those people.

[hippojoe]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Some people just won't be satisfied until the only acceptable weapon is a Predator 1.

OP seems to be one of those people.

umm its a startin weapon, fires as fast as you can click/pull the trigger, reloads instantly....yeah, i think the predator needs a huge nerf!

[bigkahuna077]

prob just some adept mad their biotic explosions got outscored by a weapon........

[bogsters23]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

bogsters23 wrote...

This game is co-op i do not see why we have to nerf the good guns and why piranha is compared to a claymore shotgun. i never liked the claymore shotgun i tried it a few times never bothered to learn reload cancel. i wish bioware nerf reload cancel so let see which is a better gun. it's good that bioware released a light shotgun that we can try on all classes because of it's weight. this gun came out for the caster classes you can not compare it to the claymore coz it weighs a ton. This game can not be balanced by nerfing weapons cause there will always be a superior class like the GI who gets bonuses for weapon damage, rate of fire and accuracy. it just peaked my interest in the game again that i could try on my other builds like the turian soldier which i have not played in a long time. why do nerfers ruin the fun for other players. Why don't the nerfers just play together using soldiers with predators with there own private game where everything is nerfed. we need this gun to make platinum runs faster so we can get more credit to buy more packs.

The point of it all is so we can all kill things with relative equality, but diffirent ways. It lends to greater variety instead of everyone using the same damned gun over and over again.

It may be co-op but it sucks when someone can do more for the team than you. If it doesn't feel that way, it probably will in time.

But I'd rather see buffs to make more guns/powers viable than nerfs. I'd like to feel I can contribute to a fightno matter what class i play.

i see your point i do not care that much with the score. i would rather that they buff the old classes and old weapons so they can be viable for platinum.  i am not a good shot and this shotgun is pretty much the enemy is in your face to be effective and on some of the classes is better coz they have buffs for accuracy.  it is not a krysae which can shoot splash damage from across the map and close range which you do not even have to aim.  they should have made it an UR coz its better than the wraith. oh well.

[Lord Rosario]

Lets sum up what I'm seeing here... On one side, the gun does a crap ton of damage per second, more than the Claymore, so it's op. On the other side it requires you to be out of cover longer, very close to the target, and actually hit with every single pellet with it's extremely inaccurate fire for it to actually deal more dps than the Claymore. Those pellets also fire in an exact circle around where you are actually aiming and since it came out later than the claymore, odds are most people don't have it up to the same level as the Claymore [though that shouldn't matter for balance calculations.]

Does that sum it up pretty well or did I forget something on either side?