1320 réponses à ce sujet

[humes spork]

If anything, the piranha needs a weight increase to keep it out of the hands of casters. Outside that, it's fairly well balanced for what it is. It's no reegar, you still have to know how to use the weapon to get the most effect out of it especially at ranges longer than 10m.

[Major Durza]

If you think this gun is OP, play on Gold or Platinum. See how quickly you die while getting the "massive DPS" this gun has to offer.
Oh, and stop using every accuracy boost in the game might help, too. I don't want it to be worthless because you think it is OP on classes that are meant to buff weapons silly.

[DanielsMind]

leave it alone

[Darkslayer2701]

The amount of butthurt anti-nerfers have on this forum is just hilarious. And the most fun thing is that despite all this childish cries that are 95% of this thread Piranha is going to be nerfed. And most of you do realize that. Which is the very reason why you cry so much.

The game balance is an important factor that in the long run provides longevity for the game.

Overpowered stuff plagues the game like excessive amount of sweets plagues children teeth.
And of course children dont wanna these sweets to be be taken from them, because they dont care about long run and just wanna have immediate fun/enjoyment. This is a very definition of immature approach.

If you dont get it - you dont get it. //

[Hulk Hsieh]

Hypertion wrote...

i actually think the damage ability of the Piranha should be used as a baseline to BUFF all other weapons... but i KNOW FOR A FACT bioware isnt willing to make enough of a effort to do that.

You mean finishing the full armor bar of Atlas within one clip?

[Major Durza]

humes spork wrote...

If anything, the piranha needs a weight increase to keep it out of the hands of casters. Outside that, it's fairly well balanced for what it is. It's no reegar, you still have to know how to use the weapon to get the most effect out of it especially at ranges longer than 10m.

Nope!  You're missing the point, this gun is OP in the hands of Weapons Platforms!  Neither the Destroyer, nor the GI will be affected by a weight increase, and this is where the OP is saying that it is overpowered.

[Gamemako]

Major Durza wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...

Why are you all kicking yourselves?

[Major Durza]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Hypertion wrote...

i actually think the damage ability of the Piranha should be used as a baseline to BUFF all other weapons... but i KNOW FOR A FACT bioware isnt willing to make enough of a effort to do that.

You mean finishing the full armor bar of Atlas within one clip?

On what class, might I ask.  If it is GI or Destroyer, then yea.

[DanielsMind]

they should be buffing more guns not nerfing them, there is now platinum making things ****ty does not make the game fun.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Major Durza wrote...

If you think this gun is OP, play on Gold or Platinum. See how quickly you die while getting the "massive DPS" this gun has to offer.
Oh, and stop using every accuracy boost in the game might help, too. I don't want it to be worthless because you think it is OP on classes that are meant to buff weapons silly.

Honestly.
If you have to limit yourself with something, it likely means it is OP.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Major Durza wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

You mean finishing the full armor bar of Atlas within one clip?

On what class, might I ask.  If it is GI or Destroyer, then yea.

Which means Claymore should 2-shot a full armor bar by a Destroyer?

[Chimera1]

Major Durza wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Hypertion wrote...

i actually think the damage ability of the Piranha should be used as a baseline to BUFF all other weapons... but i KNOW FOR A FACT bioware isnt willing to make enough of a effort to do that.

You mean finishing the full armor bar of Atlas within one clip?

On what class, might I ask.  If it is GI or Destroyer, then yea.

The thing that gets me with this argument is seeing how many people complain about this in game. Then you have to tell them that 4 people were firing at the same enemy, so just because you saw it being demolished, does not mean the player with the highest score is soloing it.

[Major Durza]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

If you think this gun is OP, play on Gold or Platinum. See how quickly you die while getting the "massive DPS" this gun has to offer.
Oh, and stop using every accuracy boost in the game might help, too. I don't want it to be worthless because you think it is OP on classes that are meant to buff weapons silly.

Honestly.
If you have to limit yourself with something, it likely means it is OP.

So we should base every weapon to be moderate when given a clip size increase, considerable ROF increase, and a significant accuracy increase?
Or in the case of the GI, significant damage increase, considerable accuracy increase and moderate ROF increase?  We ARE talking about an Assault Shotgun here.
Sounds like the weapons would be quite garbage without those, don't ya think?

[Major Durza]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

You mean finishing the full armor bar of Atlas within one clip?

On what class, might I ask.  If it is GI or Destroyer, then yea.

Which means Claymore should 2-shot a full armor bar by a Destroyer?

I said nothing about the Claymore.  That is a whole 'nother ball game.  One shot, relies on reload canceling to be effective.  And a LOT more accurate, it is a completely different weapon.  It gains nothing from the ROF increase on the destroyer, does not have the accuracy "achilles heel"(Accuracy benefit null in this case), and does not benefit nearly as much from a damage increase since it is ONE shot.

Basically, it does not benefit from the numerous class buffs nearly as much as the Piranha.

Modifié par Major Durza, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:35 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Major Durza wrote...
I said nothing about the Claymore.  That is a whole 'nother ball game.  One shot, relies on reload canceling to be effective.  And a LOT more accurate, it is a completely different weapon.  It gains nothing from the ROF increase on the destroyer, does not have the accuracy "achilles heel"(Accuracy benefit null in this case), and does not benefit nearly as much from a damage increase since it is ONE shot.

Basically, it does not benefit from the numerous class buffs nearly as much as the Piranha.

I think we can agree with that the combination of Piranha and certian classes is what really is broken.
To change that, they can hugely nerf the weapon or the classes, but the impact would be larger than nerfing both in lesser degree.

[CharlieCC]

WeAreLegion- wrote...

[ScuuubaSteeeve]

You nerfers need to SHUT YOUR MOUTH! The thing cant hit the broad side of a barn 8 ft away, not op at all

[Aiiro]

No, wait.... are people now complaining about the gun on characters who are designed with weapons in mind

[humes spork]

Major Durza wrote...

Nope!  You're missing the point, this gun is OP in the hands of Weapons Platforms!  Neither the Destroyer, nor the GI will be affected by a weight increase, and this is where the OP is saying that it is overpowered.

...you did read the OP, right? Namely, this part (emphasis mine)?

I propose returning it to it's original damage [63.6-79.6] and increasing the weight considerably to keep caster/power based classes from using it without more severe CD consequences, say [2.0 - 1.4] which is the current weight for GPS/Graal.

I love the Piranha, but seriously ever match I play now, I see that everyone is carrying it. I use it on all of my adepts and vanguards because it has no true drawbacks with cover boosts and smart choke. On my Turian Soldier and Destroyer, it is a boss killing machine at long range. I don't want to even get started on how well it works on my GI. 

Why yes, weight and caster accessibility is in fact in question!

As far as the destroyer, TSo and GI go, it's honestly fine there. The piranha's need to sustain fire raises the risk-to-reward ratio for infiltrators (opposed to the claymore, which can be used in true shoot-and-scoot fashion), and much the same can be said for TSo's for their mediocre health and shield pools (not to mention the fact you're blowing marksman for one mag, a reload, and maybe half the second, which makes deploying a proxy mine generally the wiser choice).

On the destroyer it's an utter beast, granted, but that is heavily counterveiled by the destroyer's utter lack of mobility in devastator mode and the resulting increase to risk-to-reward. The low end of destroyers' shield pools (1650-2050) is barely adequate to fire off an entire mag before shieldgate, which is much less impressive than it sounds in practice when you're attacking enemies further than 15-20m out for the fact you absolutely, positively, cannot go full auto at medium range and expect to deal noteworthy damage unless you're attacking a boss or an entire group of enemies in enfilade.

That is exactly where theorycraft utterly fails in assessing weapons, such as the OP presents. Missed shots, which include missed pellets, do zero damage and will never do anything but zero damage. DPS calculations assume every pellet hits, and the weapon is fired at its maximum RoF. I can tell you from personal, firsthand experience, after a solid week of running a destroyer with a piranha, that even on that character that is never the case unless you're less than 10m from your targets. If you're firing full auto, you won't hit your target with every pellet unless you're in melee range, which means you have to manually control your rate of fire (reducing your damage output) or simply accept the lost damage (which, obviously enough, reduces your damage output).

Let me give you a more realistic damage calculation based on medium-range fire (20m) with the piranha, on a destroyer. You're firing semi-auto at a target (a solid 100 RPM) and six of your eight pellets hit. That's in the neighborhood of 800 DPS before bonuses. After bonuses you're looking at the neighborhood of 1500-1600 DPS if you're properly specced and equipped.

Modifié par humes spork, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:59 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Aiiro wrote...

No, wait.... are people now complaining about the gun on characters who are designed with weapons in mind

"X has only one weakness which can be totally fixed by Y" is one of the most common way OP things introduced.

[Major Durza]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Major Durza wrote...
I said nothing about the Claymore.  That is a whole 'nother ball game.  One shot, relies on reload canceling to be effective.  And a LOT more accurate, it is a completely different weapon.  It gains nothing from the ROF increase on the destroyer, does not have the accuracy "achilles heel"(Accuracy benefit null in this case), and does not benefit nearly as much from a damage increase since it is ONE shot.

Basically, it does not benefit from the numerous class buffs nearly as much as the Piranha.

I think we can agree with that the combination of Piranha and certian classes is what really is broken.
To change that, they can hugely nerf the weapon or the classes, but the impact would be larger than nerfing both in lesser degree.

Well, yea.  You do not find too many weapons OP with the Quarian Engineer.  You find that most weapons are OP on the Weapons-Platform classes (Two that stand out are the Destroyer and the Geth Infiltrator)

Perhaps.  The problem with, for instance the Destroyer, is that he either rocks or is garbage, little to no room in-between.  If his weapon buffs are not very noticable, then the class is useless.  They have to be noticable, but not entirely godlike.  That is a very thin line, VERY thin line.  I am worried about the nerfs because they could easily leap over it and render both useless.

The Piranha does not need a huge nerf, to give it a nerf could make it useless with even a small change.  I'm thinking put the Piranha's damage back to where it was on release, and slightly lower the ROF increases on the Destroyer, and perhaps the GI.  Either tone down the ROF, or the accuracy.  I say either or because we should tread REAL lightly balancing this.  I think it is the accuracy increase is mostly what is making this gun look OP, it is cancelling its weakness as effectively as a camping Demolisher with a Harrier.

[stingernuke]

Why would anyone make this post....you know your gonna be flamed...i dont care if you get MIT scientists to tell you how the gun is overpowered. 98% of people are gonna dissapprove. And um...NO F you stop nerfing.

[Cellar_Cat]

High damage per second is only useful if you can apply it. The Claymore has the advantage there in that you only need to be exposed for a moment.

[DarthVarner]

humes spork wrote...

If anything, the piranha needs a weight increase to keep it out of the hands of casters. Outside that, it's fairly well balanced for what it is. It's no reegar, you still have to know how to use the weapon to get the most effect out of it especially at ranges longer than 10m.

And why would this be remotely necessary?  Casters spec for everything except weapon damage, and have no accuracy boosts.  A caster taking this weapon accepts the massive penalty of near-zero ranged damage for the benefits of mostly maxed cooldowns, and the ability to "oh crap" take out a Pyro or Hunter that flanked you.  

Casters by and large can't even reliably hit Phantoms with this gun from melee range.  Its spread IS exactly that bad without all the class-specific accuracy buffs that have been rehashed endlessly in this thread.  From 15 yards away, if you center the crosshairs on a Pyro (about the minimum safe range to engage Pyros) you will NEVER EVER hit the Pyro since there is no center to this spread at all.  

As a caster, if I wanted to save a teammate from a Banshee's hands the Banshee had better already have been primed for a BE or a tech burst.  Because he/she'll be dead before I could prime and detonate it.  With this weapon, in that very specific situation, I can step up to "oh **** why am I this close" range and unload 3k-ish damage before armor reduction into the Banshee.  That's why I take this gun to the party, along with the situation when you get revived into a Pyro's flames.  Unleash the Piranha into the guy's face and you might live; you don't have time to get a power nevermind two off to save yourself here.

If you nerf the weight, it's useless to casters.  If you nerf the damage, it's useless to casters.  If you nerf the firing rate, it's useless to casters.  If you nerf the clip size, that kills its burst ability.  If you nerf the base accuracy, pellets will be hitting your feet when you fire it straight forward.  I'm sensing a theme here.  Note that 'casters' also usually includes 'vanguards' like the Krogan.

Casters need a gun like this to be true team players on Platinum.  Every match a few team members are gonna get picked up by Banshees, and if they are out for the round you may well be done.  It sounds like the nerfers want to turn this into a full-auto Talon, but hey - we already have a Talon.  

tl;dr - The Piranha is balanced as it stands.  It offsets its high damage potential (POTENTIAL!  Not guaranteed!  In many cases downright freaking unlikely!) with horrendous accuracy.  Certain classes can compensate for this and perform quite well with the gun.  Any of the OP's nerfs will reduce it to unsuitable for use.  

The one and ONLY acceptable way to nerf this weapon would be to cap how much accuracy can improve its spread.  This could be done several ways, but the easiest would probably be to make Smart Choke unequippable on the Piranha (something in the lore like "Alliance engineers have observed dangerous, life-threatening misfires caused by decreased barrel diameter when Smart Choke is equipped on the Piranha.  Until further notice, we have recalled Smart Choke for this weapon.").  Take away that mod, and engagements beyond about 10 yards become very difficult for the GI and the Destroyer.

Modifié par DarthVarner, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:55 .

[Major Durza]

humes spork wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Nope!  You're missing the point, this gun is OP in the hands of Weapons Platforms!  Neither the Destroyer, nor the GI will be affected by a weight increase, and this is where the OP is saying that it is overpowered.

...you did read the OP, right? Namely, this part (emphasis mine)?

I propose returning it to it's original damage [63.6-79.6] and increasing the weight considerably to keep caster/power based classes from using it without more severe CD consequences, say [2.0 - 1.4] which is the current weight for GPS/Graal.

I love the Piranha, but seriously ever match I play now, I see that everyone is carrying it. I use it on all of my adepts and vanguards because it has no true drawbacks with cover boosts and smart choke. On my Turian Soldier and Destroyer, it is a boss killing machine at long range. I don't want to even get started on how well it works on my GI. 

Why yes, weight and caster accessibility is in fact in question!

As far as the destroyer, TSo and GI go, it's honestly fine there. The piranha's need to sustain fire raises the risk-to-reward ratio for infiltrators (opposed to the claymore, which can be used in true shoot-and-scoot fashion), and much the same can be said for TSo's for their mediocre health and shield pools (not to mention the fact you're blowing marksman for one mag, a reload, and maybe half the second, which makes deploying a proxy mine generally the wiser choice).

On the destroyer it's an utter beast, granted, but that is heavily counterveiled by the destroyer's utter lack of mobility in devastator mode and the resulting increase to risk-to-reward. The low end of destroyers' shield pools (1650-2050) is barely adequate to fire off an entire mag before shieldgate, which is much less impressive than it sounds in practice when you're attacking enemies further than 15-20m out for the fact you absolutely, positively, cannot go full auto at medium range and expect to deal noteworthy damage unless you're attacking a boss or an entire group of enemies in enfilade.

He is saying it is too accurate?
This guy was showing how stunningly accurate it on on FB GLACIER.  Yea, this thing is SO accurate at CLOSE QUARTERS, right?
Is this guy playing on Gold?  Seriously, it is on CASTERS that this gun is rather good.  It is not OP, it does not vape the enemies without damage/accuracy/ROF/clip size buffs.  It is pushing it, yes.  Putting it back at launch damage would make it good, but there is no need for that large of a weight increase.
I fail to see why people want all the N7 weapons to be heavy as hell.  As it stands, the only caster-friendly N7 weapons are the Eagle, Hurricane, and Piranha (For now).  Everything else weighs like a brick.  My problem with it is not as common, but I like my themed builds!  I don't want to have only an Eagle for all my N7 casters (Paladin, Fury, and Slayer).
FB Glacier is where all shotguns are used, if he does not want to see them go to any multitude of open maps.  If he wants to go to a speedrun map like Glacier, yes Shotguns are going to DOMINATE.