1320 réponses à ce sujet

[kevchy]

Cohen le Barbare wrote...

kevchy wrote...
Curious how no one noticed this and called for nerfs to the Hurricane. Like the OP, all these videos proves that the gears and equipment can and will affect the weapon substantially.

I'm not sure it calls for nerf, as the player on the video was using smg gear V, smg amp III, stabilization III and AP IV. That's quite a lot of gear for one gun. The thing with the Piranha (which is fine by me) is that the stock weapon with mods does a lot of damage. 

Aye, the Piranha is a top-tier weapon, no doubt. Its shortcoming in terms of range and accuracy when stock prevents it from being overpowered. However the OP is basing his calls for nerfs by demonstrating the weapon with mods and high level equipment, in conjuction with classes that have inherent weapon damage boosting capabilities. This would result in an unfair test.

Modifié par kevchy, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:54 .

[UserUnknown85]

kevchy wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

kevchy wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Dest1ny wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Taking off hunter mode is more logical and also using it on a default character like a human soldier. But honestly, hunter mode combined with cloak, really? What do you expect?

Edit: AP ammo, shotgun gear and weapon damage skills? Again, what do you expect?

I expect not to be ridiculed when I say I down atlases in a little over a clip... Obviously I need to lower my expectations... The gun is the fastest killer in the game. Whether it's DPS is balanced out by it's awful accuracy and recoil... *shrugs* Idk.

No one is ridiculing you. At least for me. Personally, I was curious with your setup that allows to take down an Atlas. However, with your setup, I can achieve similar results if I were to use a top-tier weapon. I recall a Turian Soldier equipped with a Hurricane + mine debuff taking down an Atlas single-handedly within less than 20 seconds as well. I need to dig up that Youtube video.

There's a couple, but here's one.
www.youtube.com/watch

No PM either.

Thanks for the link.

Curious how no one noticed this and called for nerfs to the Hurricane. Like the OP, all these videos proves that the gears and equipment can and will affect the weapon substantially.

He didn't use a proxy mine because... he can't. Marksman is on. He also takes more than half as much time than I did. He probably maxed his damage output, I didn't (I can kill that atlas with only 9 shots). Sincerely, the video doesn't help the hurricane's case all that much. I don't have it, so I can't vouch for what it can do on a GI, obviously.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Piercing mod or smart choke?

Piranha X with EB V + choke V

AP ammo IV
Power amplifier IV
Shotgun amp V

NO shotgun rail amp III (which would allow you to kill it in 9 shots)

TC 4-damage
HM 6-accuracy/RoF/speed (not optimized for damage)
Proxy 6-radius/debuff/damage (not optimized for damage)
NAI 6-weapon damage/power damage/weapon damage
Fitness 4-who cares?

So you could squeeze even more damage if you built it right, though I doubt downing the atlas in 1 clip is realistic without new gear/mods/consumable additions.

On platinum, you still don't need 2 full clips, rather something around 11-12 shots.

Nobody "ridiculed" you.  You made a claim based on conditions that you didn't specify.  If you make a claim that the Piranha takes down Atlases in X amount of shots, but you don't specify all of the other mods you add on top of that, then it's fair for people to assume you are talking about the damage from the gun only.

When you look at the discussion in context:

1) Somebody posted Piranha damage numbers with mods
2) This person was then asked to do the math without mods
3) Your commented in response to the math without mods, claiming, "You're delusional."
4) Because you were responding to the damage numbers without mods, the only reasonable thing to assume is that you were questioning his math on how much damage an unmodified Piranha could do.
5) You claimed that the Piranha could take down an Atlas in a little over a clip with a GI speced for max damage.
6) This wasn't really an appropriate response, seeing as you were responding to base damage numbers for the Piranha.
7) Nevertheless, people read your claim, and believed it was inaccurate, which it was.
8) It was inaccurate because you didn't specify the additional variables that boosted the damage on top of what you actually specified.  Level IV armor piercing ammo, gear bonus, prox mine - nobody is just going to assume that all of these additional things are included if you do not say there are.

You know what youi meant, but if you can't communicate all of the factors that contributed to your claim effectively, it's unreasonable to expect people to read your mind.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

If your claims are that a weapon is OP only with very specific classes and characters, that does not demonstrate that the weapon is OP across the board. If anything, it's showing that the characters/classes are OP.

[UserUnknown85]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Piercing mod or smart choke?

Piranha X with EB V + choke V

AP ammo IV
Power amplifier IV
Shotgun amp V

NO shotgun rail amp III (which would allow you to kill it in 9 shots)

TC 4-damage
HM 6-accuracy/RoF/speed (not optimized for damage)
Proxy 6-radius/debuff/damage (not optimized for damage)
NAI 6-weapon damage/power damage/weapon damage
Fitness 4-who cares?

So you could squeeze even more damage if you built it right, though I doubt downing the atlas in 1 clip is realistic without new gear/mods/consumable additions.

On platinum, you still don't need 2 full clips, rather something around 11-12 shots.

Nobody "ridiculed" you.  You made a claim based on conditions that you didn't specify.  If you make a claim that the Piranha takes down Atlases in X amount of shots, but you don't specify all of the other mods you add on top of that, then it's fair for people to assume you are talking about the damage from the gun only.

When you look at the discussion in context:

1) Somebody posted Piranha damage numbers with mods
2) This person was then asked to do the math without mods
3) Your commented in response to the math without mods, claiming, "You're delusional."
4) Because you were responding to the damage numbers without mods, the only reasonable thing to assume is that you were questioning his math on how much damage an unmodified Piranha could do.
5) You claimed that the Piranha could take down an Atlas in a little over a clip with a GI speced for max damage.
6) This wasn't really an appropriate response, seeing as you were responding to base damage numbers for the Piranha.
7) Nevertheless, people read your claim, and believed it was inaccurate, which it was.
8) It was inaccurate because you didn't specify the additional variables that boosted the damage on top of what you actually specified.  Level IV armor piercing ammo, gear bonus, prox mine - nobody is just going to assume that all of these additional things are included if you do not say there are.

You know what youi meant, but if you can't communicate all of the factors that contributed to your claim effectively, it's unreasonable to expect people to read your mind.

Someone was wrong and still doesn't want to admit it.... Max damage is max damage is max damage. It means exactly what it means.

[kevchy]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

kevchy wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

kevchy wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Dest1ny wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Taking off hunter mode is more logical and also using it on a default character like a human soldier. But honestly, hunter mode combined with cloak, really? What do you expect?

Edit: AP ammo, shotgun gear and weapon damage skills? Again, what do you expect?

I expect not to be ridiculed when I say I down atlases in a little over a clip... Obviously I need to lower my expectations... The gun is the fastest killer in the game. Whether it's DPS is balanced out by it's awful accuracy and recoil... *shrugs* Idk.

No one is ridiculing you. At least for me. Personally, I was curious with your setup that allows to take down an Atlas. However, with your setup, I can achieve similar results if I were to use a top-tier weapon. I recall a Turian Soldier equipped with a Hurricane + mine debuff taking down an Atlas single-handedly within less than 20 seconds as well. I need to dig up that Youtube video.

There's a couple, but here's one.
www.youtube.com/watch

No PM either.

Thanks for the link.

Curious how no one noticed this and called for nerfs to the Hurricane. Like the OP, all these videos proves that the gears and equipment can and will affect the weapon substantially.

He didn't use a proxy mine because... he can't. Marksman is on. He also takes more than half as much time than I did. He probably maxed his damage output, I didn't (I can kill that atlas with only 9 shots). Sincerely, the video doesn't help the hurricane's case all that much. I don't have it, so I can't vouch for what it can do on a GI, obviously.

I couldn't find the video I was referring to. It was some guide on how to use a TSoldier, and I thought this video was close enough.

Keep in mind the Turian Soldier does not have his own Hunter Mode, and no powers that can give him that Cloak damage bonuses. If I recall correctly, Marksman does not provide any damage boost yet that player managed to take down the Atlas very quickly, even without debuffing

If I were to use the setup that you used to demonstrate the Piranha, I'm pretty sure I can take an Atlas down the same time you did but with the Hurricane.

edited for spelling

Modifié par kevchy, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:09 .

[Alex_Dur4and]

The Piranha is definitely not OP!! Try it on some other classes than the Destroyer and the Turian Soldier... It's a fair gun! Frankly, if you want to nerf something... DON'T!!! But if you must... nerf the classes that abuse certain weapons or skills.

When I look back at all the nerfing that has been done since the release of the MP... If no nerfing had been done, we would have a balanced game right now! How many guns got nerfed until it was discovered that the "Tac Cloak" was the real problem? How many other weapons will be nerfed until it is figured that the real problem is the "Destroyer mode"? Will all grenades receive a nerf before the "supply pylon" grenade drop rate takes a beating? Will the Biotic explosion be set back to their original glory since they have become by-standard in platinum...

Think about it before you wave that nerf stick!!! The only weapon that trully needed a nerf was the Krysae... I really don't need to explain why...

The Piranha is the best thing that ever happened to my Asari Vanguard! I can play her on gold and platinum now...

Modifié par Alex_Dur4and, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:18 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Piercing mod or smart choke?

Piranha X with EB V + choke V

AP ammo IV
Power amplifier IV
Shotgun amp V

NO shotgun rail amp III (which would allow you to kill it in 9 shots)

TC 4-damage
HM 6-accuracy/RoF/speed (not optimized for damage)
Proxy 6-radius/debuff/damage (not optimized for damage)
NAI 6-weapon damage/power damage/weapon damage
Fitness 4-who cares?

So you could squeeze even more damage if you built it right, though I doubt downing the atlas in 1 clip is realistic without new gear/mods/consumable additions.

On platinum, you still don't need 2 full clips, rather something around 11-12 shots.

Nobody "ridiculed" you.  You made a claim based on conditions that you didn't specify.  If you make a claim that the Piranha takes down Atlases in X amount of shots, but you don't specify all of the other mods you add on top of that, then it's fair for people to assume you are talking about the damage from the gun only.

When you look at the discussion in context:

1) Somebody posted Piranha damage numbers with mods
2) This person was then asked to do the math without mods
3) Your commented in response to the math without mods, claiming, "You're delusional."
4) Because you were responding to the damage numbers without mods, the only reasonable thing to assume is that you were questioning his math on how much damage an unmodified Piranha could do.
5) You claimed that the Piranha could take down an Atlas in a little over a clip with a GI speced for max damage.
6) This wasn't really an appropriate response, seeing as you were responding to base damage numbers for the Piranha.
7) Nevertheless, people read your claim, and believed it was inaccurate, which it was.
8) It was inaccurate because you didn't specify the additional variables that boosted the damage on top of what you actually specified.  Level IV armor piercing ammo, gear bonus, prox mine - nobody is just going to assume that all of these additional things are included if you do not say there are.

You know what youi meant, but if you can't communicate all of the factors that contributed to your claim effectively, it's unreasonable to expect people to read your mind.

Someone was wrong and still doesn't want to admit it.... Max damage is max damage is max damage. It means exactly what it means.

If that's the case, then why would you attempt to counter a post about base damage with a post about "max damage is max damage is max damage"?  It makes no sense.  Your post was confusing at best; the terms you were attempting to communicate weren't clear at all.

"Here's some math involving unmodified Piranha base damage..."

"No, you're completely off the mark.  The damage of a Piranha + GI + cloak + hunter mode + proxy mine + Level IV AP ammo + Shotgun gear bonus + smart choke + shredder mod is this..."

Again, this response made no sense in context and just ended up confusing people.  Your post was basically the equivalent of:

"1+1=2"

"No you're wrong! 2+2=4"

[xabkish]

Agreed. It has a better DPS than freaking Talon while being a gold card. I'm generally not against powerful weapons but I do hate power creep. Either adjust old content to this new OP stuff or the other way around.

[nomad311]

Ahhh this is perfect, it's just like the Krysae discussion. We were all fighting over the OPness of the sniper rifle, and people that loved the gun saw that it was really really good in the hands of an Infiltrator and above average on any other class. So the fight became the weapon is OP vs Infiltrators are OP. Shortly after the gun got reduced and so did cloak. Now both sides are claiming that infiltrators are useless as is the Krysae. This discussion is following the same path, so are we going to see the reduction of the shotgun AND Destroyers/Marksman/Others then we'll have more "worthless" items/classes?

[isetfires]

nomad311 wrote...

Ahhh this is perfect, it's just like the Krysae discussion. We were all fighting over the OPness of the sniper rifle, and people that loved the gun saw that it was really really good in the hands of an Infiltrator and above average on any other class. So the fight became the weapon is OP vs Infiltrators are OP. Shortly after the gun got reduced and so did cloak. Now both sides are claiming that infiltrators are useless as is the Krysae. This discussion is following the same path, so are we going to see the reduction of the shotgun AND Destroyers/Marksman/Others then we'll have more "worthless" items/classes?

^^^^ Exactly. That's why we all need to STFU. 40+ pages...insanity.

[Feirefiz1972]

Killjoy is gonna break my new favorite toy, because its overpowered in combination with huntermode, armor piercing ammo 4, shotgun rail amp 3, smart choke, extended barrel and the geth infiltrator passives. Way to go Killjoy!

[Dbohr]

Everyone (presumably) plays to have fun. It just so happens that everyone has a particular definition of what is "fun" and what is not.

Some play for credits, some play to enjoy a good time with friends, some just like a tough challenge. When an apparently overpowered item or character show up, those who enjoy tougher challenges will always cry foul. That is just the way things are with videogames.

But the recent balance changes, along with the Dev's justifications for each, have showed that Bioware know what they're doing -- or, at the very least, don't pay that much attention to calls for nerf on the forums. I for one believe their collected data tells them what needs adjustment and what is fine. Their judgement isn't perfect, but so far I believe there have been more rights than wrongs.

I'd lament if the Piranha was nerfed. But I trust this won't cripple the gun, if done.

[Immortal Strife]

I use it on a lot of classes: Destroyer, GI, TSol, BSol, Slayer, Kroguard, HI, KroSol, BSen, VSol, HSol and MQI. I obviously think it's pretty dam good.

[UserUnknown85]

quote
[/quote]

If that's the case, then why would you attempt to counter a post about base damage with a post about "max damage is max damage is max damage"?  It makes no sense.  Your post was confusing at best; the terms you were attempting to communicate weren't clear at all.

"Here's some math involving unmodified Piranha base damage..."

"No, you're completely off the mark.  The damage of a Piranha + GI + cloak + hunter mode + proxy mine + Level IV AP ammo + Shotgun gear bonus + smart choke + shredder mod is this..."

Again, this response made no sense in context and just ended up confusing people.  Your post was basically the equivalent of:

"1+1=2"

"No you're wrong! 2+2=4"
end quote [/quote]

I'm willing to admit that my first post wasn't as specific as I possibly could have made it, you're right.

Maths obviously isn't the be-all end-all of everything. People calculated the damage (with gear and equipment), still came up short. Maybe the numbers we are using are false, maybe the gun is bugged, or people on the forums suck at maths, but theoretical calculations are just that. You have to prove them in-game. That's exactly why I provided an example. Now if you can give me another way of killing an atlas in less than 7 seconds, I'm all ears.

And I'm sorry, but saying "max damage" kinda implies using consumables and gear... Or your damage isn't, well, "maxed" now is it?

Modifié par UserUnknown85, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[Digitalis32]

WeAreLegion- wrote...

This. do you nerf hearders just hate life and want everyone else to suffer, especially after what happened to the wraith? the Piranha is the only shotgun other than the Claymore that doesn't completely suck.

Modifié par Digitalis32, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .

[Steppdaddy2]

Oh wow- a gun is fantastic on weapon damage based classes that all boost accuracy and rate of fire....don't forget about damage... Crazy how that works.

Wait a minute.... Bioware released a new difficulty where bosses spawn on wave one and 3 new powerful weapons at the same time? I see no correlation. Does not compute.

Are you meaning to tell me that the highest dps weapon in the game is a rare and more accessible to the public? Preposterous. At least it has pinpoint accuracy.

So they made a gun that all classes can use effectively in cqc due to weight? That's not balanced at all.

Hey OP, if your 41 page thread gets this gun nerfed, then all I have to say is good job for screwing over everyone in this community for taking away a gun that's viable to every class in this game.

Note: If you don't think the acolyte is good, then you must be totally fine with biotics not working on shielded targets.  Edit: Some biotics- singularity, pull, unspecced lash etc.

Modifié par Steppdaddy2, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I'm willing to admit that my first post wasn't as specific as I possibly could have made it, you're right.

Maths obviously isn't the be-all end-all of everything. People calculated the damage (with gear and equipment), still came up short. Maybe the numbers we are using are false, maybe the gun is bugged, or people on the forums suck at maths, but theoretical calculations are just that. You have to prove them in-game. That's exactly why I provided an example. Now if you can give me another way of killing an atlas in less than 7 seconds, I'm all ears.

And I'm sorry, but saying "max damage" kinda implies using consumables and gear... Or your damage isn't, well, "maxed" now is it?

Well, thanks for doing the test and video.  It is interesting to see the damage of a Piranha completely maxed out with character, mods, powers, etc.  Taking an Atlas down that fast is pretty crazy.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:19 .

[Schneidend]

Piranha is only doing all this super duper damage at close range. It's perfectly fine.

[humes spork]

nomad311 wrote...

Ahhh this is perfect, it's just like the Krysae discussion. We were all fighting over the OPness of the sniper rifle, and people that loved the gun saw that it was really really good in the hands of an Infiltrator and above average on any other class. So the fight became the weapon is OP vs Infiltrators are OP. Shortly after the gun got reduced and so did cloak. Now both sides are claiming that infiltrators are useless as is the Krysae. This discussion is following the same path, so are we going to see the reduction of the shotgun AND Destroyers/Marksman/Others then we'll have more "worthless" items/classes?

Neither infiltrators nor the krysae are in fact useless, even after Tuesday's krysae nerf. And, on "any other class" the krysae didn't do enough damage to two shot anything on gold up to bosses, but it was still what it was: a scoped grenade launcher that required absolutely no actual skill to use consistently. And, that's where the krysae and piranha differ -- the piranha requires a foundation of mechanical knowledge and in-game finesse to use to maximum effect, the krysae doesn't.

And, to bring in another "OP" weapons comparison for the sake of context, there was never a substantive discussion on the reegar's power level for the fact that while it requires very little skill to use, the player takes on extreme risk to use it. This game theoretically operates on the assumption that to get higher reward, you have to be higher-skilled and/or take on higher risk; it's a solid foundation, intuitive, and works.

The piranha is, for its spread and automatic nature, a moderate-risk, moderate-skill, high-reward weapon. The reegar is a low-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon. The krysae was a low-skill, low-risk, high-reward weapon.

Modifié par humes spork, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[JAMiAM]

WandererRTF wrote...

At least some of the issue comes the problem that ME3 does not separate between different sources of precision errors in weapons fire - that is hitscanning weapons in ME3 are always perfect in accuracy but not in precision. It is reasonable that Smart Choke affects the pellet spread but on the other hand it is IMHO space magic that Marksman, Devastator Mode, Hunter Mode (others?) affect it. That is they should be affecting the precision errors between separate shots, not between separate pellets within a shot. If game handled the issue in that manner it would resolve at least of the woes related to Piranha as then you would not be able to erase the accuracy issue like you are currently able to do.

This.  Exactly.  Accuracy bonuses, as implemented in ME3 make ZERO sense for shotguns, as the current effect is to tighten the pellet spread.  There is no physical reason that a class, or racial, bonus will magically tighten the spread of pellets coming out of a gun's barrel.  This is solely dictated by the physical properties of the choke mechanism on the barrel.

The simple fix to this problem, would be to disallow accuracy bonuses on multi-projectile weapons.  That is, devices that shoot these projectiles simultaneously. 

[Pedactor]

This thread needs tossed in a pit and dumped on by an Elcor.

Why would you want to hurt one of the most fun weapons in the game? It has strengths and drawbacks.

[Hulk Hsieh]

JAMiAM wrote...

This.  Exactly.  Accuracy bonuses, as implemented in ME3 make ZERO sense for shotguns, as the current effect is to tighten the pellet spread.  There is no physical reason that a class, or racial, bonus will magically tighten the spread of pellets coming out of a gun's barrel.  This is solely dictated by the physical properties of the choke mechanism on the barrel.

The simple fix to this problem, would be to disallow accuracy bonuses on multi-projectile weapons.  That is, devices that shoot these projectiles simultaneously. 

Glad to see more and more ppl recognizing this.
By removing skill-based accuracy bonus from shotguns, both the weapon and the classes can be saved.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 26 juillet 2012 - 04:25 .

[UserUnknown85]

humes spork wrote...

nomad311 wrote...

Ahhh this is perfect, it's just like the Krysae discussion. We were all fighting over the OPness of the sniper rifle, and people that loved the gun saw that it was really really good in the hands of an Infiltrator and above average on any other class. So the fight became the weapon is OP vs Infiltrators are OP. Shortly after the gun got reduced and so did cloak. Now both sides are claiming that infiltrators are useless as is the Krysae. This discussion is following the same path, so are we going to see the reduction of the shotgun AND Destroyers/Marksman/Others then we'll have more "worthless" items/classes?

Neither infiltrators nor the krysae are in fact useless, even after Tuesday's krysae nerf. And, on "any other class" the krysae didn't do enough damage to two shot anything on gold up to bosses, but it was still what it was: a scoped grenade launcher that required absolutely no actual skill to use consistently. And, that's where the krysae and piranha differ -- the piranha requires a foundation of mechanical knowledge and in-game finesse to use to maximum effect, the krysae doesn't.

And, to bring in another "OP" weapons comparison for the sake of context, there was never a substantive discussion on the reegar's power level for the fact that while it requires very little skill to use, the player takes on extreme risk to use it. This game theoretically operates on the assumption that to get higher reward, you have to be higher-skilled and/or take on higher risk; it's a solid foundation, intuitive, and works.

The piranha is, for its spread and automatic nature, a moderate-risk, moderate-skill, high-reward weapon. The reegar is a low-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon. The krysae was a low-skill, low-risk, high-reward weapon.

That statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do. You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

I reckon it should be more :
piranha : moderate-risk, low-skill, high-reward weapon
reegar is a moderate-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon

[Hulk Hsieh]

humes spork wrote...

The piranha is, for its spread and automatic nature, a moderate-risk, moderate-skill, high-reward weapon. The reegar is a low-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon. The krysae was a low-skill, low-risk, high-reward weapon.

Some classes, with accuracy bonus, makes Piranha low-risk.