1320 réponses à ce sujet

[Aethyl]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Yep, even the scimitar used failishly on a GI can dish out some severe punishments. :happy:

Of course this weapon is a pure powerhouse on weaponmaster classes like GI / Destroyer / Turian, and your video proves it just well.
But nerfing a weapon so it would be "averagely good" on those said classes would kill it for the others, the classes it was originaly designed for, aka Vanguards and CQB casters.

So I only see a solution, just restrict it to all the classes except GI / Destroyer / TS.

That, or the fact that it's not affected by accuracy boost could do too.

UserUnknown85 wrote...

That
statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the
piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do.
You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit
the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over
the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for
the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

I reckon it should be more :
piranha : moderate-risk, low-skill, high-reward weapon
reegar is a moderate-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon

As always, depending of the classes using it.

On average, non weapon powerhouse classes, the weapons are subpar.
However, used on those classes, the Piranha is better than the Reegar, yeah, because mainly of this accuracy / RoF bonus.

Also, I forgot it, but the Reegar has a HUGE bonus against shields, and is, in fact, easier to score headshots with.

Modifié par Aethyl, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:01 .

[BoomDynamite]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

humes spork wrote...

The piranha is, for its spread and automatic nature, a moderate-risk, moderate-skill, high-reward weapon. The reegar is a low-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon. The krysae was a low-skill, low-risk, high-reward weapon.

Some classes, with accuracy bonus, makes Piranha low-risk.

All of three classes, when there are 39 others that don't.

[JAMiAM]

Pitznik wrote...

Seriously, why he wouldn't use consumables? Consumables are supposed to be used, that half people on Gold doesn't use them at all is a whole different problem.

Exactly.

[The Waffle Cat]

this thread is a joke

[humes spork]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

That statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do. You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

The reegar, of course, being a weapon that fires a highly visible stream that has no delay and perfect accuracy/precision. Meanwhile,

The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do. You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over the shoulders.

There's this. So, tell me more about how the weapon with which headshotting is hard, and you have to know the weapon's spread and account for that when using it, takes less skill to use than one where all you have to do is keep the reticle pointed at the enemy.

Modifié par humes spork, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[JAMiAM]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

How about making the accuracy bonus from power not working on shotguns?
A skilled marksman can fire a rifle/pistol more accurately, but how the pellets fly shouldn't be something controllable by skill.

I'm pretty sure that I've said this, once or twice, in this thread already... 

It seems to be the sensible first step toward making balance changes.

[BlazingZephyr]

Quoting myself from the thread mocking this one:

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Why must people go on about the nerfing of all these new good weapons? The good ones should NOT be touched. There are multiple older weapons that are complete junk, most of them rares and ultra-rares (GPR, Locust, Kishock, Striker, Javelin). Instead of actually balancing, BioWare is introducing new, great weapons, then killing them because they are labelled as "OP" by "Balancers". What they SHOULD be doing is looking back at these other weapons of similar rarity and boost them to a similar level of usefulness for their class.

A great example is the entire AR category. New weapons like the Harrier and Typhoon make ARs viable, but things like the Striker, GPR, and (arguably) the Falcon are next to useless. Sure, the URs should be more powerful, but that shouldn't make the rares junk. The uncommon Mattock and Vindicator out-do the these, in my opinion. Does that mean they should be weakened? No, it means the rare ARs need to be strengthened to be "balanced".

The weapons should actually be BALANCED:

Krysae >Widow > Kishock
Solution: Make Kishock useable so all rare SRs are of similar strength

Piranha > other rare shotguns > Discple
Solution: slightly modify Piranha to match other shotguns and buff Disciple (make staggers more likely and increase barrier/shield effectiveness)

Instead of THIS:

Krysae > Widow > Kishock
Solution: Make Krysae weaker than common Mantis.

Piranha > other shotties with DPS-increasing power
Solution: Make Piranha heavier, weaker, slower, and less accurate to drop it below all other rare shotguns.

"Balance it" has just become a euphemism for "nerf it so my weapons can kill better than it". And even the "nerfers" that aren't like that are looking in the wrong direction. Instead of killing these new awesome weapons, we should be reviving these old dying ones.

[Major Durza]

death_for_sale wrote...

Alex_Dur4and wrote...

The Piranha is definitely not OP!! Try it on some other classes than the Destroyer and the Turian Soldier... It's a fair gun! Frankly, if you want to nerf something... DON'T!!! But if you must... nerf the classes that abuse certain weapons or skills.

When I look back at all the nerfing that has been done since the release of the MP... If no nerfing had been done, we would have a balanced game right now! How many guns got nerfed until it was discovered that the "Tac Cloak" was the real problem? How many other weapons will be nerfed until it is figured that the real problem is the "Destroyer mode"? Will all grenades receive a nerf before the "supply pylon" grenade drop rate takes a beating? Will the Biotic explosion be set back to their original glory since they have become by-standard in platinum...

Think about it before you wave that nerf stick!!! The only weapon that trully needed a nerf was the Krysae... I really don't need to explain why...

The Piranha is the best thing that ever happened to my Asari Vanguard! I can play her on gold and platinum now...

I see, please tell me more about a weapon that is not overpowered, yet allows you to take a class that you previously could not use on a higher difficulty and now use said class on that difficulty?

More Diversity in Gold matches?  Isn't that what you want?  I would love to see a lot more underpowered classes being used on Gold, idk about you.

[landylan]

death_for_sale wrote...

Alex_Dur4and wrote...

The Piranha is the best thing that ever happened to my Asari Vanguard! I can play her on gold and platinum now...

I see, please tell me more about a weapon that is not overpowered, yet allows you to take a class that you previously could not use on a higher difficulty and now use said class on that difficulty?

Maybe the gun gives the asari vanguard the firepower it needs to be competitive with with other classes when it comes to boss killing. When I look at my claymore geth compared to the piranha geth, the claymore may be the better choice. It's like a sniper and has low exposure. Claymore isn't really an option for casters though. Shooting this thing between my cooldowns has really made certain classes a lot more useful against bosses.

[Buckapocka]

ZombieGambit wrote...

No, stop asking for ****ing nerfs to everything good, instead ask for buffs for everything that sucks. Goddammit, people like you flooding the forums with nerf requests are killing the game.

[UserUnknown85]

Aethyl wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Yep, even the scimitar used failishly on a GI can dish out some severe punishments. :happy:

Of course this weapon is a pure powerhouse on weaponmaster classes like GI / Destroyer / Turian, and your video proves it just well.
But nerfing a weapon so it would be "averagely good" on those said classes would kill it for the others, the classes it was originaly designed for, aka Vanguards and CQB casters.

So I only see a solution, just restrict it to all the classes except GI / Destroyer / TS.

That, or the fact that it's not affected by accuracy boost could do too.

UserUnknown85 wrote...

That
statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the
piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do.
You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit
the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over
the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for
the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

I reckon it should be more :
piranha : moderate-risk, low-skill, high-reward weapon
reegar is a moderate-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon

As always, depending of the classes using it.

On average, non weapon powerhouse classes, the weapons are subpar.
However, used on those classes, the Piranha is better than the Reegar, yeah, because mainly of this accuracy bonus.

Also, I forgot it, but the Reegar has a HUGE bonus against shields.

Lol! Those scimitar skills are pretty impressive!


One of the problems here is there are a number of people saying that the gun is OP because of what it can do powerhouse classes like the destroyer/GI using a bunch of consumables.

Then others who say that it isn't, because an asari adept specced 6/6/6/0/6 and using no consumables can't do all that much damage with it.

There is a middle ground. There is no doubt that the piranha is very powerful, such a gun is always going to look very strong on a GI. You can't balance weapons around the GI (look at poor Krysae...) but you can't balance them around casters/vanguards either.

I don't know if the gun should be nerfed or not, like the reegar, it can be a bit risky, and it isn't even all that much more powerful than the electrical flamethrower, maybe it's the weapon-centered classes that are the problem. Stronger and stronger guns are introduced into the game, but casters haven't received a lot of love.

[Leronel]

I totally disagree.

The piranhna deserve an Auto-aiming and then it will be an acceptable gun.

[Chrome tater tot]

Here we go again. Goodbye piranha, you will be missed. Say hi to the krysae for us. I honestly don't understand why people get so offended when guns are good. If you think it's too easy or something there is a plethora of other weapons you can use to make it harder.

[UserUnknown85]

humes spork wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

That statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do. You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

The reegar, of course, being a weapon that fires a highly visible stream that has no delay and perfect accuracy/precision. Meanwhile,

The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do. You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over the shoulders.

There's this. So, tell me more about how the weapon with which headshotting is hard, and you have to know the weapon's spread and account for that when using it, takes less skill to use than one where all you have to do is keep the reticle pointed at the enemy.

The point is, the piranha's recoil and low accuracy make headshotting more of an accident than anything else. More often than not, you just focus on keeping your sights roughly on target.

Of course, you can do the same with the reegar, and still rock everything, but you'll find that you kill stuff a lot faster by targetting the head. I suppose it is a matter of perception. Which seems the hardest to you? Fighting recoil or aiming at the head?


EDITED formatting

Modifié par UserUnknown85, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[Qror_pl]

WeAreLegion- wrote...

[capn233]

42 pages...

[JAMiAM]

Core_Commander wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Destroyer is one of a handful of classes where the gun isn't total crap, lets nerf it so it's useless for absolutelly everyone.

I kind of agree.

So my own idea for the balance is to make the accuracy bouns from power not applying to shotguns.
Well... only if Bioware see this post....

I actually really like that idea.  It probably won't stop the nerfmongering, but it is a real fix to the problem.

This is an excellent idea, to be honest. Space magic limiting pellet spread has always been bothering my brain's logic centers a little.

I'm just quoting this, to illustrate a developing consensus.  Accuracy should not affect pellet spread.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

death_for_sale wrote...

Alex_Dur4and wrote...

The Piranha is definitely not OP!! Try it on some other classes than the Destroyer and the Turian Soldier... It's a fair gun! Frankly, if you want to nerf something... DON'T!!! But if you must... nerf the classes that abuse certain weapons or skills.

When I look back at all the nerfing that has been done since the release of the MP... If no nerfing had been done, we would have a balanced game right now! How many guns got nerfed until it was discovered that the "Tac Cloak" was the real problem? How many other weapons will be nerfed until it is figured that the real problem is the "Destroyer mode"? Will all grenades receive a nerf before the "supply pylon" grenade drop rate takes a beating? Will the Biotic explosion be set back to their original glory since they have become by-standard in platinum...

Think about it before you wave that nerf stick!!! The only weapon that trully needed a nerf was the Krysae... I really don't need to explain why...

The Piranha is the best thing that ever happened to my Asari Vanguard! I can play her on gold and platinum now...

I see, please tell me more about a weapon that is not overpowered, yet allows you to take a class that you previously could not use on a higher difficulty and now use said class on that difficulty?

Look, if the Piranha gets nerfed, it'll be the exact same situation we have with the Krysae now - still usable with an Infiltrator or Soldier, but useless with all other classes.  If you want to make an argument that Soldiers and Infiltrators should be the only ones capable of inflicting significant weapon damage, that's fine, but that means all other classes would need corresponding buffs to their existing powers.  So that an Asari Vanguard with her powers and a Carnifex could at least be capable of inflicting half as much damage as a Geth Infiltrator with a GPS.

[Aethyl]

UserUnknown85 wrote...

Aethyl wrote...

UserUnknown85 wrote...

I don't know whether the gun is OP or not, but here is what the gun can do, since apparently asking people to figure things out for themselves is too much to ask...

Atlas kill, 10 shots, on gold.

I know I can do it in 9 (cuz I've done it) but this is without a shotgun rail amp.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Yep, even the scimitar used failishly on a GI can dish out some severe punishments. :happy:

Of course this weapon is a pure powerhouse on weaponmaster classes like GI / Destroyer / Turian, and your video proves it just well.
But nerfing a weapon so it would be "averagely good" on those said classes would kill it for the others, the classes it was originaly designed for, aka Vanguards and CQB casters.

So I only see a solution, just restrict it to all the classes except GI / Destroyer / TS.

That, or the fact that it's not affected by accuracy boost could do too.

UserUnknown85 wrote...

That
statement is wrong. The reegar requires more skill to use than the
piranha. The geometry of the piranha's spread make headshots hard to do.
You either aim for center mass, or at the upper torso and hope to hit
the head with a few pellets without sending too many of them flying over
the shoulders. The reegar on the other hand, requires you to aim for
the head, if you want to achieve the best result possible.

I reckon it should be more :
piranha : moderate-risk, low-skill, high-reward weapon
reegar is a moderate-skill, extreme-risk, high-reward weapon

As always, depending of the classes using it.

On average, non weapon powerhouse classes, the weapons are subpar.
However, used on those classes, the Piranha is better than the Reegar, yeah, because mainly of this accuracy bonus.

Also, I forgot it, but the Reegar has a HUGE bonus against shields.

Lol! Those scimitar skills are pretty impressive!


One of the problems here is there are a number of people saying that the gun is OP because of what it can do powerhouse classes like the destroyer/GI using a bunch of consumables.

Then others who say that it isn't, because an asari adept specced 6/6/6/0/6 and using no consumables can't do all that much damage with it.

There is a middle ground. There is no doubt that the piranha is very powerful, such a gun is always going to look very strong on a GI. You can't balance weapons around the GI (look at poor Krysae...) but you can't balance them around casters/vanguards either.

I don't know if the gun should be nerfed or not, like the reegar, it can be a bit risky, and it isn't even all that much more powerful than the electrical flamethrower, maybe it's the weapon-centered classes that are the problem. Stronger and stronger guns are introduced into the game, but casters haven't received a lot of love.

Agreed. The fact that this weapon couldn't get any accuracy bonus could be an idea tho, since it would keep its ridiculous range to balance for this incredible power at close range.

And yeah, weapons classes are supposed to use weapons, so they should be better with them (but maybe are they too good right now?), while adept use their biotics, so they, technically, don't need powerful weapons.

But a vanguard for exemple, an hybrid combat / biotic, will need a light weapon with enough power to be useful when throwing himself right in the face of the enemy, and the piranha is a good exemple of perfect weapon for them.

Modifié par Aethyl, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:32 .

[isetfires]

...

Modifié par isetfires, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[Arppis]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

this thread is a joke

Good one... or bad one?

And after answering that... Mega or super?

[humes spork]

death_for_sale wrote...

Headshots are not really difficult on the Piranha. The spread is such that if you aim slightly to the side of your target, they upper 2 pellets will hit the head.

Yes, and depending on range and class, the upper two pellets may hit the head but 4-6 pellets will miss.

Missed shots do zero damage. Missed pellets do zero damage. Which means that if you're trying to headshot regardless of how you do it with a piranha you're coming out of it marginally ahead in terms of total damage than if you'd just aimed center mass to get as many pellets into the enemy as possible (which has the side effect of incidental headshotting anyways), and to get those headshots you're going to be necessarily limiting your rate of fire since you sure as hell aren't going to consistently headshot going full auto, least of all on classes with substantial RoF increases.

UserUnknown85 wrote...

The point is, the piranha's recoil and low accuracy make headshotting more of an accident than anything else. More often than not, you just focus on keeping your sights roughly on target.

 
You're the one arguing headshotting is all that important with the piranha. It's not, getting the pellets into your target is what's important. And to do that, you have to know its spread and account for that, all while compensating for recoil, climb, range, and in all likelihood timing your shots.

DPS calculations are based upon firing the damn gun full auto and hitting with every pellet from every shot. The only time you do that in practice is within 10m for the vast majority of classes, 15 on a GI or destroyer, and 20m on a TSo with marksman active. If you're good at compensating for recoil and keeping a bead on a moving target at the same time. In any other circumstance, which is the overwhelming majority of the time you're using the damn gun, you either have to limit your rate of fire or accept that a good number of pellets will miss.

Missed pellets = less damage
Manually-controlled rate of fire =  less damage

That is why DPS calculations are misleading.

Modifié par humes spork, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .

[BoomDynamite]

isetfires wrote...

derp

Fixed. Image tags...