I disagree. It would push it out of its intended niche into the hands of those classes it is most OP'ed for, and who care little, or nothing, about weight.
Good point.
Less damage then.
Right, decrease the damage so it's still OP on weapon specialists, but garbage for everyone else.
This thread is like a broken record, endlessly repeating the same stupid suggestions.
I think you have me confused with another. My preferred method of 'fixing' this gun, is to fix the problem with Space Magic being the reason that Racial/class Accuracy bonuses can somehow override the laws of physics and cluster pellets. Those accuracy bonuses should NOT affect pellet spread, or other simultaneously launched multi-projectile devices.
Failing that systemic fix for the affected character bonuses, I wouldn't like to see anything more than a mild ROF reduction, at the current damage levels, or a return to the initial damage levels it had on release.
Actually... ROF would hurt it a bit more than a damage decrease would. Think about it shooting slower next time you use it.
I usually don't go full auto with it. I fire more slowly and deliberately, so an ROF reduction wouldn't be much of a hit, at all - for me. Besides, with the previously mentioned kick the gun has on full auto, it will be easier to compensate for muzzle climb if the ROF was lower.
I disagree. It would push it out of its intended niche into the hands of those classes it is most OP'ed for, and who care little, or nothing, about weight.
Good point.
Less damage then.
Right, decrease the damage so it's still OP on weapon specialists, but garbage for everyone else.
This thread is like a broken record, endlessly repeating the same stupid suggestions.
I am uploading a short youtube video of this weapon in practice. I selected Unkown/Unkown/Gold, I ended up with Cerberus (*sigh*) on Firebase Goddess. I only recorded two waves (one less than the OP recorded) and it shows that this gun is that OP, if it is at all. It is treading a very thin line, it is VERY good at its niche. Outside of its niche it fails spectactularly (7 shots to kill ONE Assault Trooper at mid-range!)
I was using a N7 Paladin, only gear I equipeed was Structural Ergonomics IV, no specs for weapon damage, per the caster norm.
As I said, it is borderline to slightly OP on casters. Glad you finally agree.
The crazy spread is already a pretty large drawback for it. Sure, if you put it in the hands of a class that boosts accuracy it shines, but isn't that kind of the point?
I still can't believe people want to nerf this gun just because it's on par with a Claymore. Not that it has the Claymore's range or anything. Let's also ignore the fact that it takes the whole clip to do that damage. Or the fact that enemies are getting stronger every week.
The balance changes I would like to see (both nerfs and buffs):
The piranha should weigh slightly less than the Reegar, but have a DPS around that of the claymore with no damage penalty against armor. That way a caster has to make a choice between being a CQC boss slayer or a mook pistol sniper.
The Slayer should get 100 pts. added to the base shields, a 20% buff to phase disruptor and a 15% buff to his melee.
The Shadow should have a 100 point shield buff in either her base or Evo 4 of her sword mastery.
The Paladin should either get a shield buff or DR frames frames when the shield is deployed.
Incinerate should get a slight buff to damage, the cryo combo should actually work and incinerate should armor debuff in a matter similar to the cryo powers and warp.
The QMI's arc grenades should break cloak and have the same base damage as the Destroyer.
The weight shouldn't be changed.
The Piranha is designed for CQB casters, and Vanguards, which rely mostly on low cooldown, so increasing the weight would only disavantage those said classes, while the classes really making it powerful right now, like the Destroyer / TS and Geth Infiltrator, wouldn't care about the weight increase.
It's the worst idea ever for this gun, it should stay that light.
How about we just buff sniper rifles. They are ridiculous underpowered in my opinion...or we can keep talking about this nonsense.
Javelin with AP and Barrel mods headshotting three guardians in a row... in what way is that underpowered?
Those are guardians we're talking about. I can take out guardians with the incisor, so we shouldn't buff it right? The Javelin weighs a ton, is overkill on everything except bosses, has poor spare ammo and has a delayed shot (which you can adjust to i guess). They should give it a 50% shield gate reduction by default to make it at least usable against geth and cerberus.
1) Here's a challence, can anyone kill three guardians standing behind eachother with one shot from an incisor?
2) So the javelin is overkill for anything except bosses? - well that invalidates your suggestion that all sniper rifles are underpowered. Even with shield gate the widow and the javelin are both capable of reducing atlases to scrap in short order.
3) If there was a 50% reduction in shield gate then it would be quite possible to one-shot everything...and then people will scream for it to be nerfed....and the cycle continues.
This weapon does not need a slight nerf. Why? Put this weapon in the hands of a seasoned player you get high scores and what not. If a casual player or newbie is using this weapon then good luck. See... No need for nerfs. Enough said. If you want this weapon to be slightly nerfed so badly ask bioware to nerf the geth, reapers, and cerberus. Much better
You people who cry wolf every 10 seconds is the reason the multiplayer is so screwed up now. Shame on you for destroying such a good multiplayer. Bioware, you should focus on the majority of the people playing the game, not the few. even hardcore players are becoming frustrated with this group of people hell bent on "balancing" the multiplayer which does not need balancing. Ultra rare and rare weapons SHOULD be OP, if many people have these weapons to X then its because they took their precious time to save up those credits and spend them on a CHANCE to get those weapons to then realize theyre underpowered. Its like getting a raise at work and then realizing the economy inflated once again and you've basically gained nothing from the raise
most of us keep using the same weapons because you keep killing all the diversity. These people who ask for nerfing are almost like communists...
How about we just buff sniper rifles. They are ridiculous underpowered in my opinion...or we can keep talking about this nonsense.
Javelin with AP and Barrel mods headshotting three guardians in a row... in what way is that underpowered?
Those are guardians we're talking about. I can take out guardians with the incisor, so we shouldn't buff it right? The Javelin weighs a ton, is overkill on everything except bosses, has poor spare ammo and has a delayed shot (which you can adjust to i guess). They should give it a 50% shield gate reduction by default to make it at least usable against geth and cerberus.
1) Here's a challence, can anyone kill three guardians standing behind eachother with one shot from an incisor?
2) So the javelin is overkill for anything except bosses? - well that invalidates your suggestion that all sniper rifles are underpowered. Even with shield gate the widow and the javelin are both capable of reducing atlases to scrap in short order.
3) If there was a 50% reduction in shield gate then it would be quite possible to one-shot everything...and then people will scream for it to be nerfed....and the cycle continues.
1) Of course you can't but that wasn't my point. My point was that guardians are some of the easiest enemies to take out in the game. I only use the example of the Incisor to try and illustrate how easy it is to kill them.
2) 'I' never said all sniper rifles are underpowered. and the Javelin is overkill for anything besides bosses. Seriously. You probably wasted 500+ damage on that one geth trooper, or cannibal, or assault trooper. Sure, but can it do that to all other boss units besides atalses?
3)If there was 50% shield gate reduction it would deem itself ultra rare worthy. As of now, theres basically nothing that the Javeling can do that the Widow or even the Mantis can do better. +
I watched the caster video with the piranha and he literally shot at near point blank range, with head shots with the gun's muzzle on the lips of most of the Cerberus units. And he didn't fight phantoms of which you can use more clips to kill them than an Atlas. And from a certain distance when they do there little pose aiming the gun at there head and you'll just make a bullet ring around them. The skinny nemesis's spiraling run means anything out side of point blank melee range and you're only getting about 4 pellets in her max.
I played with this gun on casters and you have to nearly be in melee range aiming point blank at the chest or head to be effective.
I am uploading a short youtube video of this weapon in practice. I selected Unkown/Unkown/Gold, I ended up with Cerberus (*sigh*) on Firebase Goddess. I only recorded two waves (one less than the OP recorded) and it shows that this gun is that OP, if it is at all. It is treading a very thin line, it is VERY good at its niche. Outside of its niche it fails spectactularly (7 shots to kill ONE Assault Trooper at mid-range!)
I was using a N7 Paladin, only gear I equipeed was Structural Ergonomics IV, no specs for weapon damage, per the caster norm.
As I said, it is borderline to slightly OP on casters. Glad you finally agree.
Thanks for proving our point.
Borderline to slightly OP is NOT the same as OP. Borderline to slightly op means of decent balance.
Your argument that "if you put it on a destroyer, it's the ultimate weapon" is also pretty down, actually. Even with accuracy buffs, it takes about half a mag to successfully down any infantry outside of Reegar Range, note that this is with all of your precious mods (level 5 and 3 shotgun amp and level 3 ammo), whereas a Revenant will do more on them. Case is the same against banshees, where the accuracy and recoil removes all of the pirahnas precious damage by loss of pellets. So unless your saying that a revenant with no mods is the most powerful anti-infantry weapon in the game, I'm afraid to say that the Destroyer-Pirahna combo is not as powerful as you claim (it only has this so-called OPness when facing either an Atlas, Brute or Prime, everything else it has too much spread to efficiently hit outside of Reegar range, where you'll use a Reegar, which has more power against shields and ultimately doesn't need to be put on a weaponsmaster to wipe anything in range), against phantoms, and similar sized infantry, that spread and recoil makes it completely useless, where other weapons will work better.
Again, I'd like to point out that it only has this damage IF it's pellets hit. In all honesty, at mid-long range on a Destroyer, I'd take a Revenant (and if I can ever recieve one, a Harrier or Typhoon) over a Pirahna anyday, then bring a Reegar instead. Frankly, it's not as tough as you claim. If anything is to be done, then the Pirahna should not be the target of the nerf, but Proximity mine and accuracy bonuses should. They are what apparently makes an otherwise balanced weapon OP (or at least by your claims), therefore that should be looked at. It's obvious that they make so many weapon that are otherwise weak, shockingly powerful, and weapons that are powerful completely overpowered. Target the source of the issue, not the side-cause.
Now, quit your pathetic little attempts at a comeback, you're wrong. It's not OP, other things are that cause it to debatably become heavily overpowered. That's the end of it. Ash is right, saying that not only are your tests notably ineffective, but you are heavily weighted to one side, bending yours, and everyone elses tests to your favour, then complaining and dismissing those who say that your tests and conclusions are inaccurate. Give it up and let it die.
Also, Digitalis32: It's overkill to all light infantry, whom will always take two shots if they have even a scrap of shields. Against heavy units, weapons such as the M-300 are arguably better/equal at that job. The M-300 also deals with the shield gate, which makes it a better choice over those two, since it can deal with both light infantry and heavy units to better/the same extent, but is overall a bit less forgiving. Personally, I think that the bolt-actions could do with a significant damage increase to make up for the shield gate cripple they recieve, might make them more appealing as anti-materiels.
I am uploading a short youtube video of this weapon in practice. I selected Unkown/Unkown/Gold, I ended up with Cerberus (*sigh*) on Firebase Goddess. I only recorded two waves (one less than the OP recorded) and it shows that this gun is that OP, if it is at all. It is treading a very thin line, it is VERY good at its niche. Outside of its niche it fails spectactularly (7 shots to kill ONE Assault Trooper at mid-range!)
I was using a N7 Paladin, only gear I equipeed was Structural Ergonomics IV, no specs for weapon damage, per the caster norm.
As I said, it is borderline to slightly OP on casters. Glad you finally agree.
Thanks for proving our point.
Borderline to slightly OP is NOT the same as OP. Borderline to slightly op means of decent balance.
Your argument that "if you put it on a destroyer, it's the ultimate weapon" is also pretty down, actually. Even with accuracy buffs, it takes about half a mag to successfully down any infantry outside of Reegar Range, note that this is with all of your precious mods (level 5 and 3 shotgun amp and level 3 ammo), whereas a Revenant will do more on them. Case is the same against banshees, where the accuracy and recoil removes all of the pirahnas precious damage by loss of pellets. So unless your saying that a revenant with no mods is the most powerful anti-infantry weapon in the game, I'm afraid to say that the Destroyer-Pirahna combo is not as powerful as you claim (it only has this so-called OPness when facing either an Atlas, Brute or Prime, everything else it has too much spread to efficiently hit outside of Reegar range, where you'll use a Reegar, which has more power against shields and ultimately doesn't need to be put on a weaponsmaster to wipe anything in range), against phantoms, and similar sized infantry, that spread and recoil makes it completely useless, where other weapons will work better.
Again, I'd like to point out that it only has this damage IF it's pellets hit. In all honesty, at mid-long range on a Destroyer, I'd take a Revenant (and if I can ever recieve one, a Harrier or Typhoon) over a Pirahna anyday, then bring a Reegar instead. Frankly, it's not as tough as you claim. If anything is to be done, then the Pirahna should not be the target of the nerf, but Proximity mine and accuracy bonuses should. They are what apparently makes an otherwise balanced weapon OP (or at least by your claims), therefore that should be looked at. It's obvious that they make so many weapon that are otherwise weak, shockingly powerful, and weapons that are powerful completely overpowered. Target the source of the issue, not the side-cause.
Now, quit your pathetic little attempts at a comeback, you're wrong. It's not OP, other things are that cause it to debatably become heavily overpowered. That's the end of it. Ash is right, saying that not only are your tests notably ineffective, but you are heavily weighted to one side, bending yours, and everyone elses tests to your favour, then complaining and dismissing those who say that your tests and conclusions are inaccurate. Give it up and let it die.
Also, Digitalis32: It's overkill to all light infantry, whom will always take two shots if they have even a scrap of shields. Against heavy units, weapons such as the M-300 are arguably better/equal at that job. The M-300 also deals with the shield gate, which makes it a better choice over those two, since it can deal with both light infantry and heavy units to better/the same extent, but is overall a bit less forgiving. Personally, I think that the bolt-actions could do with a significant damage increase to make up for the shield gate cripple they recieve, might make them more appealing as anti-materiels.
Borderline to slightly OP on casters, about 50% of the classes. When you then look at the weapon platform classes, it is brutally overpowered.
Such as this video from another poster.
Now you say, as do others, NERF THE WEAPON classES!!!1111!!
1. For an anti-nerfer, you sure are fast to suggest nerfs to half of the classes in the game. People think I'm bad for asking for a slight balance to one weapon, so good luck with that.
2. Revenant is not really accurate on any class but the Turian Soldier/N7 Destroyer and has terrible recoil., The Typhoon is an UR, as is the Harrier (which is balanced by a horribly small clip).
3. So a Destroyer can only shred large size bosses per your opinion. Good thing Primes, Brutes, and Atlases don't make up a large portion of the bosses of their respective factions....
Finally, Balance means Balance. Borderline to Slightly OP means NOT BALANCED...
Modifié par death_for_sale, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:37 .
How about we just buff sniper rifles. They are ridiculous underpowered in my opinion...or we can keep talking about this nonsense.
Javelin with AP and Barrel mods headshotting three guardians in a row... in what way is that underpowered?
Those are guardians we're talking about. I can take out guardians with the incisor, so we shouldn't buff it right? The Javelin weighs a ton, is overkill on everything except bosses, has poor spare ammo and has a delayed shot (which you can adjust to i guess). They should give it a 50% shield gate reduction by default to make it at least usable against geth and cerberus.
1) Here's a challence, can anyone kill three guardians standing behind eachother with one shot from an incisor?
2) So the javelin is overkill for anything except bosses? - well that invalidates your suggestion that all sniper rifles are underpowered. Even with shield gate the widow and the javelin are both capable of reducing atlases to scrap in short order.
3) If there was a 50% reduction in shield gate then it would be quite possible to one-shot everything...and then people will scream for it to be nerfed....and the cycle continues.
1) Of course you can't but that wasn't my point. My point was that guardians are some of the easiest enemies to take out in the game. I only use the example of the Incisor to try and illustrate how easy it is to kill them.
2) 'I' never said all sniper rifles are underpowered. and the Javelin is overkill for anything besides bosses. Seriously. You probably wasted 500+ damage on that one geth trooper, or cannibal, or assault trooper. Sure, but can it do that to all other boss units besides atalses?
3)If there was 50% shield gate reduction it would deem itself ultra rare worthy. As of now, theres basically nothing that the Javeling can do that the Widow or even the Mantis can do better. +
I'm really beginning to think that they should kill shield gate for sniper rifles. Add a new penetration mod for them that lets them bypass it in percentages.
If the gun is so overpowering why do people still die all the time on gold and platinum that are using it?
Stop with all the Nerf XXXX crap! This game is called Multiplayer for a reason. If your worried about who is getting more kills your DOING IT WRONG! Screw the kill board at the end of the mission. As long as we win and we all get the SAME credits, life is good.
death_for_sale wrote... Borderline to slightly OP on casters, about 50% of the classes. When you then look at the weapon platform classes, it is brutally overpowered.
Such as this video from another poster.
Now you say, as do others, NERF THE WEAPON classES!!!1111!!
1. For an anti-nerfer, you sure are fast to suggest nerfs to half of the classes in the game. People think I'm bad for asking for a slight balance to one weapon, so good luck with that.
2. Revenant is not really accurate on any class but the Turian Soldier/N7 Destroyer and has terrible recoil., The Typhoon is an UR, as is the Harrier (which is balanced by a horribly small clip).
3. So a Destroyer can only shred large size bosses per your opinion. Good thing Primes, Brutes, and Atlases don't make up a large portion of the bosses of their respective factions....
Finally, Balance means Balance. Borderline to Slightly OP means NOT BALANCED...
So, balanced on caster classes, like it should be. Bordeline slightly OP means that it is in the balanced and fair area, bordering a part where it is unbalanced. BORDERING doesn't mean that it is. If I want to run from the police, I don't stop when I'm bordering, I stop when I'm on the other side of the border, not on the edge.
Yes, the weapon classes deserve another look at, if they are making weapons such as this one, the Shuriken, the Phaeston, Vindicator, and some of the weapons that have merit power that is unusually high. Like I said, the weapon itself is not overpowered, what a small portion of the classes (two, or in your opinion, three) use what bonuses they have to make it overpowered. If a Slayer ran around with a Phaeston and topped the scoreboard, that doesn't mean that the Phaeston is good or overpowered, that means that the slayer is good. Tick off everyone else and see what you get, and if everyone else is using it to similar high extent, then there is a correlation. If two or three classes are using a weapon well, yet others do not see anywhere near this level of effect, then it's clear that the weapon is not the problem, but the classes. Like the whole infiltrator-sniper argument. Snipers don't actually have much power, the infiltrators that use them do, which them makes them powerful. As such, debuffing snipers is wrong, as the other classes will have no purpose to use them because of low damage, instead, you balance the actual problem, not the effect that said problem has. Decreasing the effect and damage bonus of tactical cloak then makes the snipers have a more level field of use, which allows for better balancing.
Seeing as I expect you are too dumb, lazy or otherwise to understand what I'm pointing at in that last paragraph, look at it like this: If a non-weaponsmaster combat class picks up a sniper rifle, they get a light base modifier with it (their racial weapon bonus is pretty much all they have) of approximately 27.5% If a weaponsmaster combat class picks up a sniper rifle, they get immmense modifiers. For this example, I will use the Destroyer. He gets 30% damage, as well as a 40% RoF bonus and a 35% increase to ammo. That increases combat effectiveness by almost double, as less time is spent reloading as the clips are larger, more bullets are flying at target, and each shot has more damage, so your sustained DPS is pretty much doubled, before you add any racial passive bonuses. In the end, the playing field is about as far apart as the whole infiltrator-sniper system. As such, the playing field must be leveled, else any change to any other variables involving both types of combat class will cause fault on one side. Imagine the infiltrator-sniper rifles scenario again, if they buff the snipers, the non-infiltrators classes will become a good choice for the classes, but the infiltrators gain even more power and will continue to use said weapons to greater extent, if you debuff the snipers, then no non-infiltrator will ever have a reason to use a sniper rifle, virtually voiding the weapon type for 83% of all classes. In the same way, debuffing the Pirahna will result in non-weaponsmaster classes picking up something else while the other side barely sees any kind of weakness, and if it does cause such a massive dent to it, they simply switch weapons to something else, which then gets branded as OP and debuffed (rinse and repeat).
Unlike you, Myself and Ash seem to be using our heads, not just looking at every class in the game as the weaponsmaster classes.The number of weaponsmaster classes (proper ones) in the game are roughly anywhere between 6-14 (depending on your stance with infiltrators and Vorcha, one of which are only focused on a single type of weapon, and the other being a melee class with nice powers, but see some potential for weapons), and the number of non-weaponsmaster classes in the game are roughly between 29-37. So what you are suggesting is (not just a larger scale system of the hunter mode debuff, which was aimed to weaken the GIs power to reasonable level) that for every class-weapon combo you will balance, you are fine with unrightly nerfing over twice as many classes, just so that these few classes don't have such a bonus.
Alternatively, you just just balance those classes which see immense bonuses (causing the weapon to be overpowered) and as a result, keep the other classes well-balanced with the weapon that was designed for most of them. (it's built for light-bodied races, hence why it's a light assault shotgun). So, which seems to be the smarter option, do you think? Screw over around 33 classes, or screw over 10? Might I remind you that debuffing the Pirahna will not help this problem in the future, and that all future weapons made for light classes will be overused by the weaponsmasters, and this problem will repeat itself.
So look at it this way: if anything will see a debuff first, it'll be all the classes you've mentioned that have massive power towards it, THEN they'll get round to looking at the Pirahna and seeing if it's overpowered. So really, it's either don't chance the Pirahna, or debuff the classes that use it well.
PS.
1) My notion is a logical point and conclusion to any balancer, you can't make a fairly balanced weapon when the variables are too far apart, anyone who knows anything about the numbers of the game should know that.
2) I don't see your point, just because it's UR doesn't mean that people won't use it, even at level 1, they work well enough to be brought into platinum. And your argument about the revenant contradicts your tradition of "you'll always bring mods with you", mods which, might I add, will fix most/all problems with the Revenant.
3) The enemies I listed are the least of your problems in a Platinum match, it has bonuses against the "filler enemies", while the pirahna will not be effective against the "monkey wrench enemies", which are there to blow apart your strategies.
If your argument is that the Piranha is slightly OP on casters and insanely OP on the GI, any nerf that would bring the weapon out of "borderline OP" range on casters would still leave it OP on the GI.
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