1320 réponses à ce sujet

[GroverA125]

death_for_sale wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...
You are trolling because you point out one or two things, conveniently ignoring other items you don't want to discuss. I try explaining what you skipped over and you dismiss it. You are not interested in an honest discussion, you just want to nitpick things that have no relation to the issue. I used the weapon on a class that did not have weapon buffs and tried to avoid using that classes powers, you and he point out that I boosted my shields. I explain why, then you say that it was due to gear mods that I was able to take down things like I did.

Additionally the Piranha is OP on more than just those 3 classes. It is OP on any shotgun Infiltrator. It is OP on the Human Soldier. You can make a case that it is OP on any weapon based class with buffs and mods to damage. Do you then remove the capability to do good damage with weapons from the Weapon classes? Do they get to have caster powers to replace what they are losing?

Well then, how about we progress this forwards a few stages then? List all of the points you have made that I have ignored, and let us see if I have not answered them, or have not bothered because the answer is too obvious.

And as for my note on lessening the damage/bonuses of weapon classes, we've discussed this more than once in the thread. You can't balance something on both the weapon classes AND on other classes, the gap is currently too far to make any changes to one insignificant to the other.

Then you balance the weapons on ~GASP~ the weapon classes. The caster classes have other abilities and should be concerned more with those than weapons.

As far as what you have ignored, I lack the time and will to go through 50 pages and pull out the various dodging or ignoring that you or Ashen have done.

1) So you are saying that all classes other than the 13 or so classes that are designed to use weapons effectively should be the only ones to use weapons? While they're at it balancing all 50 or so weapons just to suit these 13 classes, perhaps they should remove all the weapons that were there for the casters, you know, seeing as though you render them completely obsolete.

Also, anyone with half a brain would know that Bioware WILL NOT do that. Not only is it heavily time consuming, but it lessens the priority of weapons, which is what many people buy packs for. if only 25% of all classes use weapons, why should anyone spend their own money to recieve these powerful weapons which are useless on their class?

2) If you really can't be bothered to go back and list these so-called "Dodges" that myself and others have made, then we will render that point obsolete. If you can't be bothered to support your point, then your point is invalid. Once you've actually put effort in to support your point, THEN you can use it.

[Gamemako]

Let's see if I can make the same point here as I did in the thread over in the balance group.

Let's say I take a Cerberus Adept and spam Smash. This fully removes the range issue. Even against armor or barrier, I'm getting roughly 2500 damage per 2.5 seconds at close range, which is obviously about 1000 DPS. If I take a Piranha X, I get 3046 sustained damage per second at close range. Which should I take? If I'm a Destroyer instead, I'm getting 4689 damage per second at close range. Which should I take? There are no perks to power spam which can begin to justify slashing your damage output to one third what it could be with the Piranha, and if you've gone that far, you have to acknowledge that the Destroyer is simply a 50% better class. The doubled durability and greater range (from accuracy) is just icing on the cake.

The Piranha (along with the similarly-overpowered Reegar, Typhoon, and Harrier) has fully gutted any sense of balance in the game. Power classes are and will remain second-class citizens until BioWare pulls back and slices the power of each of these weapons back to within the range of the original weapons.

//EDIT: Or let me put it this way: a Justicar doing nothing but standing around with an offensive bubble is adding 3 times as much damage to the team as a Cerberus Adept spamming Smash. It's that bad.

Modifié par Gamemako, 28 juillet 2012 - 11:39 .

[Ben Richards]

Gamemako wrote...

Let's see if I can make the same point here as I did in the thread over in the balance group.

Let's say I take a Cerberus Adept and spam Smash. This fully removes the range issue. Even against armor or barrier, I'm getting roughly 2500 damage per 2.5 seconds at close range, which is obviously about 1000 DPS. If I take a Piranha X, I get 3046 sustained damage per second at close range. Which should I take? If I'm a Destroyer instead, I'm getting 4689 damage per second at close range. Which should I take? There are no perks to power spam which can begin to justify slashing your damage output to one third what it could be with the Piranha, and if you've gone that far, you have to acknowledge that the Destroyer is simply a 50% better class. The doubled durability and greater range (from accuracy) is just icing on the cake.

The Piranha (along with the similarly-overpowered Reegar, Typhoon, and Harrier) has fully gutted any sense of balance in the game. Power classes are and will remain second-class citizens until BioWare pulls back and slices the power of each of these weapons back to within the range of the original weapons.

//EDIT: Or let me put it this way: a Justicar doing nothing but standing around with an offensive bubble is adding 3 times as much damage to the team as a Cerberus Adept spamming Smash. It's that bad.

You're making a somewhat unreasonable comparison. Smash can go through walls, stagger enemies (so it's great for crowd control), set off biotic detonations, set off tech bursts, prime biotic detonations, and prime tech bursts. The final ability being a damage-over-time ability which prevents that enemy from regenerating shields/barriers for the duration of that time. If you take all of those into consideration what you have is an ability which can inflict much more damage than what is inflicted directly. You can't just look at numbers and just say one is better than the other. Especially if it's weapon vs power.

[DarthVarner]

Gamemako wrote...

Let's see if I can make the same point here as I did in the thread over in the balance group.

Let's say I take a Cerberus Adept and spam Smash. This fully removes the range issue. Even against armor or barrier, I'm getting roughly 2500 damage per 2.5 seconds at close range, which is obviously about 1000 DPS. If I take a Piranha X, I get 3046 sustained damage per second at close range. Which should I take? If I'm a Destroyer instead, I'm getting 4689 damage per second at close range. Which should I take? There are no perks to power spam which can begin to justify slashing your damage output to one third what it could be with the Piranha, and if you've gone that far, you have to acknowledge that the Destroyer is simply a 50% better class. The doubled durability and greater range (from accuracy) is just icing on the cake.

The Piranha (along with the similarly-overpowered Reegar, Typhoon, and Harrier) has fully gutted any sense of balance in the game. Power classes are and will remain second-class citizens until BioWare pulls back and slices the power of each of these weapons back to within the range of the original weapons.

//EDIT: Or let me put it this way: a Justicar doing nothing but standing around with an offensive bubble is adding 3 times as much damage to the team as a Cerberus Adept spamming Smash. It's that bad.

Nope.  If you were good and took the electrical evo of Smash at rank 4, you also apply a stacking, detonatable electrical DoT for fully 40% of each hit and a high 50% damage taken debuff, like proxy mine, for the team.  Also, last I checked my Smash had a less than 2 sec CD, which is over 20% better than you claim.  

Smash also hits through walls and cover, detonates biotic explosions, has a high chance of staggering / knocking enemies around for additional physics damage, and deals damage straight through Phantoms' blue shields.  Let me know when the Piranha can do any of these.

And yes, I have some rather extensive experience with this character and this gun to work with.  You always use Smash ability, and then in "oh ****" situations fall back on the gun, when you are out of cover or don't have time for the windup animation.

Modifié par DarthVarner, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:10 .

[tonnactus]

And not forget: Smash could damage more the one enemy,the Piranha only one at a time,increasing the dps even further.

On small maps like Glacier a Smasher could easily outdps even destroyers and any kind of infiltrators.

Modifié par tonnactus, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:10 .

[Black Phantom]

Gamemako wrote...

Let's see if I can make the same point here as I did in the thread over in the balance group.

Let's say I take a Cerberus Adept and spam Smash. This fully removes the range issue. Even against armor or barrier, I'm getting roughly 2500 damage per 2.5 seconds at close range, which is obviously about 1000 DPS. If I take a Piranha X, I get 3046 sustained damage per second at close range. Which should I take?

It depends on your team composition, and combat situation just like any other weapon/class in the game. A Piranha will not prime an enemy for a Tech Burst/Biotic explosion/stack electrical DoT, has an unreliable stagger, and cannot ragdoll enemies/stagger bosses as opposed to Smash which hits with over 1000 newtons of force. If Smash hits an enemy, (or multiple enemies) it will deal all of it's DPS.  With the Piranha, if the enemy is anything smaller than an Atlas or
Brute, you are most likely not going to be dealing your full DPS. The Smash animation locks on a target, and is nearly impossible to dodge. Enemies will frequently evade gunfire.

So yeah, the Piranha is better against a giant bullet sponge like an Atlas, for DPS purposes, (it won't stagger it like Smash will) but Smash deals significant damage, and has more utility.

Gamemako wrote...
If I'm a Destroyer instead, I'm getting 4689 damage per second at close range. Which should I take? There are no perks to power spam which can begin to justify slashing your damage output to one third what it could be with the Piranha, and if you've gone that far, you have to acknowledge that the Destroyer is simply a 50% better class. The doubled durability and greater range (from accuracy) is just icing on the cake.

I gave plenty of reasons above for why this is false. Your DPS calculations assume that all of the pellets hit, which is unrealistic to expect against anything but an Atlas/Brute at near point blank range. On top of that, you're ignoring the other aspects of the powers that make them worth using. But for the record I agree that weapon is OP on the Destroyer.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:10 .

[nicethugbert]

I'm not sure I've ever heard a balance guru state an objective standard for balance. Would someone like to give it a shot?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:33 .

[nicethugbert]

DarthVarner wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

Let's see if I can make the same point here as I did in the thread over in the balance group.

Let's say I take a Cerberus Adept and spam Smash. This fully removes the range issue. Even against armor or barrier, I'm getting roughly 2500 damage per 2.5 seconds at close range, which is obviously about 1000 DPS. If I take a Piranha X, I get 3046 sustained damage per second at close range. Which should I take? If I'm a Destroyer instead, I'm getting 4689 damage per second at close range. Which should I take? There are no perks to power spam which can begin to justify slashing your damage output to one third what it could be with the Piranha, and if you've gone that far, you have to acknowledge that the Destroyer is simply a 50% better class. The doubled durability and greater range (from accuracy) is just icing on the cake.

The Piranha (along with the similarly-overpowered Reegar, Typhoon, and Harrier) has fully gutted any sense of balance in the game. Power classes are and will remain second-class citizens until BioWare pulls back and slices the power of each of these weapons back to within the range of the original weapons.

//EDIT: Or let me put it this way: a Justicar doing nothing but standing around with an offensive bubble is adding 3 times as much damage to the team as a Cerberus Adept spamming Smash. It's that bad.

Nope.  If you were good and took the electrical evo of Smash at rank 4, you also apply a stacking, detonatable electrical DoT for fully 40% of each hit and a high 50% damage taken debuff, like proxy mine, for the team.  Also, last I checked my Smash had a less than 2 sec CD, which is over 20% better than you claim.  

Smash also hits through walls and cover, detonates biotic explosions, has a high chance of staggering / knocking enemies around for additional physics damage, and deals damage straight through Phantoms' blue shields.  Let me know when the Piranha can do any of these.

And yes, I have some rather extensive experience with this character and this gun to work with.  You always use Smash ability, and then in "oh ****" situations fall back on the gun, when you are out of cover or don't have time for the windup animation.

As good as you make smash sound, it's dwarfed by spawn bombing with grenades.

[Black Phantom]

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not sure I've ever heard a balance guru state an objective standard for balance. Would someone like to give it a shot?

There will never be an objective balance standard that everyone agrees on.

[Bonza99]

I think the Piranha is bell balance because its only super deadly in the hands of the right classes - Turian Soldier, Destroyer, Geth Infiltrator, Human Soldier (haven't tried Soldier myself, just assuming).

Otherwise there is a wide spread and a slow-ish rate of fire. Plenty of time to get shot at while you're waiting for the 8th shot to fire to finish gold beasts.

[Mysteryman2000]

Why don't I ask Chuck Norris for his opinion. And kindly ask him to send you a response,

[nicethugbert]

Ashen Earth wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not sure I've ever heard a balance guru state an objective standard for balance. Would someone like to give it a shot?

There will never be an objective balance standard that everyone agrees on.

It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with it or not.  The important thing is that one express themselves better rather than worse.  There is no sense in listening to people complain about balance if they don't have an objective idea of what they are talking about.  Without an objective standard, complaints of balance are just selective whinning.

[LoganofET]

WeAreLegion- wrote...

Let me have my fun. Please.

[Gamemako]

Ben Richards wrote...

You're making a somewhat unreasonable comparison. Smash can go through walls, stagger enemies (so it's great for crowd control), set off biotic detonations, set off tech bursts, prime biotic detonations, and prime tech bursts. The final ability being a damage-over-time ability which prevents that enemy from regenerating shields/barriers for the duration of that time. If you take all of those into consideration what you have is an ability which can inflict much more damage than what is inflicted directly. You can't just look at numbers and just say one is better than the other. Especially if it's weapon vs power.

1) Technically, bullets can also go through walls as well.

2) The amount of damage you get out of a Piranha allows you to stagger things quite easily as well. Moreover, a PIranha can produce enough damage in a very short time to stop a Banshee's charge; a PA will have to kite her until she dies. Of course, if she stops, the Piranha user is much better poised to put her in the ground, since she'll go right ahead and block most powers used against her.

3) You don't need to worry much about regeneration when your opponent is dead. A Destroyer can kill with the Piranha before the PA can even finish the windup on the first of two or three Smashes it will take to kill basic opponents in Platinum.

4) Weak biotic explosions that require the help of others to enact. That limits the utility of the ability -- you have to have other biotics with you and ready to hit your target specifically if you're going to detonate a biotic explosion. But hell, I'll math it out anyway. Even if you were doing 2000 damage per detonation (I have not done testing, but Gold +100% detonations don't do that much damage, so a 6/6 +50% isn't going to do that much and a 6/6 base isn't going to be near there), you're adding 1/3rd to your damage output (giving 50% of the damage to each user).

I'll get more math in here after the following post.

DarthVarner wrote...

Nope.  If you were good and took the
electrical evo of Smash at rank 4, you also apply a stacking,
detonatable electrical DoT for fully 40% of each hit and a high 50%
damage taken debuff, like proxy mine, for the team.  Also, last I
checked my Smash had a less than 2 sec CD, which is over 20% better than
you claim.

1) You're right, for personal calculations, I should have used the electrical evo as it deals more damage for oneself. I will have to update the numbers for that, reducing raw damage by 165 and adding a 50% multiplier. However, it is not an expose evolution, it adds a 50% DoT to your own attack.

2) Your smash will have 5/3.25=1.54s cooldown on top of a ~1-second windup animation, which means that the whole cycle is about 2.5 seconds, though almost certainly somewhat more.

DarthVarner wrote...


Smash also hits through walls and cover, detonates
biotic explosions, has a high chance of staggering / knocking enemies
around for additional physics damage, and deals damage straight through
Phantoms' blue shields.  Let me know when the Piranha can do any of
these.

1) Yes, of course it can.
2) No, though you need someone priming the target for you if you're going to detonate with Smash in the first place.
3) Yes / No (but who needs physics damage when the target is already dead?)
4) Of course it deals damage through their power shield -- it's for powers, not bullets, and many strategies for dealing with Phantoms involve getting them to raise that shield so that you can shoot them. However, since when does Smash pierce The Hand? Mine sure doesn't!

So let's see. Starting over, Smash is 550 * (1 base + 0.2 r1 + 0.4 r5 + 0.45 class skill + 0.3 power amp III) * 1.5 = 1938.75 against shields/health and 3392.8125 against barrier/armor. Thus, you're dealing 763.29 DPS against shields/health and 1335.75 DPS against armor. If you want to add in the (probable overestimate) of a biotic explosion, you're doing around 1157 DPS against shields/health and 1729 DPS against barrier/armor. Even if you were to hit an average of 1.5 targets (max 2, most of the time you'll hit 1, 1.5 is pretty generous) and your targets were half-and-half easy and hard targets, you're still underperforming quite significantly (2165 versus the 3046 you could be doing), and you're needing a teammate constantly nearby to prime your detonations (nevermind the problematic logistics of doing so). So yeah, Piranha on Phoenix produces superior output. That's just how it is. Even if you somehow accept that some other benefits I cannot for the life of me find somehow mitigate the missing 41% damage, you're never going to find anything that will account for the 117% difference you could have by switching classes. The balance is just completely broken.

And when was the last time a Swarmer blocked my Piranha? Oh, it's never happened.

Ashen Earth wrote...

I gave plenty of reasons above for why this is false. Your DPS calculations assume that all of the pellets hit...

I'm ignoring the rest of your post. The fact that you're still arguing range issues at the range at which Smash hits is just bizarre.

[ryoldschool]

I can't believe this thread is still going. I still prefer my non-reload cancelled claymore over the piranha on my GI. I had to spend too much time shooting out of cover to get my kills compared to the claymore.

[Gamemako]

nicethugbert wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not sure I've ever heard a balance guru state an objective standard for balance. Would someone like to give it a shot?

There will never be an objective balance standard that everyone agrees on.

It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with it or not.  The important thing is that one express themselves better rather than worse.  There is no sense in listening to people complain about balance if they don't have an objective idea of what they are talking about.  Without an objective standard, complaints of balance are just selective whinning.

I could do so, but the subjectivity of the terms in the definition would mean that it would likely not contribute to the discussion.

[Kekhadgar]

why ask for nerfs this is a co-op game not pvp it helps us all ffs

[Ben Richards]

Gamemako wrote...

Ben Richards wrote...

You're making a somewhat unreasonable comparison. Smash can go through walls, stagger enemies (so it's great for crowd control), set off biotic detonations, set off tech bursts, prime biotic detonations, and prime tech bursts. The final ability being a damage-over-time ability which prevents that enemy from regenerating shields/barriers for the duration of that time. If you take all of those into consideration what you have is an ability which can inflict much more damage than what is inflicted directly. You can't just look at numbers and just say one is better than the other. Especially if it's weapon vs power.

1) -

2) -

3) -

4) -

1) Yes "technically", but at reduced damage and only with the right Ammo Type/Weapon Mod/Cover Thickness. Smash basically exerts its full utility whatever the case.

2) Edit - nvm too tired.

3) That is true. But it is sometimes the case where constantly priming/detonating a stong target is the most effective way to take out an entire mob particularly in choke points like on FBW and FBG. Another utility thing which doesn't necessarily mean that the Piranha is vastly superior.

4) This argument I'm scratching my head at a bit. Yes it's true that Smash's full utility is only fully realised when there are other biotics/techs on a team, however, at the same time you're saying that the Piranha requires that it be in the hands of a Destroyer to be fully effective and you're also assuming every pellet actually hits the intended target.

Modifié par Ben Richards, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:44 .

[Kenadian]

Ashen Earth wrote...
But for the record I agree that weapon is OP on the Destroyer.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not OP on the Destroyer. This may be a repeated argument but **** if I'm going to read through 50 pages. The Destroyer (along with the GI, HSo, and others) are classes meant to produce high DPS with weapons. Calling what they are meant to do OP is kind of silly.

[Dream-Maker]

Personally I have no problem with the Piranha doing monster damage on weapon classes like GI or Destroyer, as there are many weapons that can do that on such classes anyway.

The real problem with this weapon IMO is that it makes all other light shotguns obsolete for caster characters. There is no reason not to take the Piranha when you play a cooldown dependant class, because it gives you unmatched DPS for such a low cooldown rate. I'd go as far as saying that it can also make other light weapons of any type obsolete as long as you're not afraid of playing at mid to close range.

Seriously range isn't even an issue provided you're not afraid of getting a bit close to your enemy. Even if your class doesn't have any accuracy bonus and as long as you use smart choke, you're perfectly able to kill targets at mid range because the weapon's ROF compensates for the lack of accuracy. Let's be honest : at mid range it's indeed not better than any other light shotgun to kill a small target at mid range, but it doesn't do worse either.

This weapon has however definite advantages over other light shotguns in the following situations :

- Two small targets tightly grouped at mid range : you shoot at them with the piranha, with a bit of luck the large spread and the high ROF can enable you to kill both as fast as you would kill one target at the same range. This situation has happened to me many times and here the gun's main drawback actually plays in its favor.

- The weapon can destroy large targets at an unmatched DPS for other light weapons. Even mid range you're likely to land most if not all of your pellets on big targets.

- And of course at close range whatever your target, you deal enormous DPS which is the main selling point of the weapon but as I explained not the only advantage it has over other weapons of the same category by far.


Since the videos provided by the OP seem to be dismissed by people for whatever reasons, I suggest you take a look at this great piranha wielding N7 Paladin gameplay video. It's not from me but I think it shows pretty well how this weapon is too much of an obvious choice for casters and also that it shows in practice the cases I mentioned above (notably the weapon's mid range performance).

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:49 .

[nicethugbert]

Kekhadgar wrote...

why ask for nerfs this is a co-op game not pvp it helps us all ffs

Because some people do not want to coop.  They want to score.  They're playing PVP on the sly.  Don't count me among them.

[Rokayt]

Some people play for challenge. People running around inflicting thousands of damage per second hampers that.

[nicethugbert]

Gamemako wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not sure I've ever heard a balance guru state an objective standard for balance. Would someone like to give it a shot?

There will never be an objective balance standard that everyone agrees on.

It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with it or not.  The important thing is that one express themselves better rather than worse.  There is no sense in listening to people complain about balance if they don't have an objective idea of what they are talking about.  Without an objective standard, complaints of balance are just selective whinning.

I could do so, but the subjectivity of the terms in the definition would mean that it would likely not contribute to the discussion.

Math is subjective?

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

Some people play for challenge. People running around inflicting thousands of damage per second hampers that.

People who play for challenge, solo.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Some people play for challenge. People running around inflicting thousands of damage per second hampers that.

People who play for challenge, solo.

You seriously cannot expect an entire portion of the community to be forced into being a bunch of loners. That is  insane.