102 réponses à ce sujet

[darkshadow136]

I agree with some of what you have said.



Having 6 in your party instead of 4 would be nice but not really needed. I would love to interject in the banter but again that is not really needed. I wish they gave you the option to fast forward through conversations especially for repeat players who get tired of hearing the same dialogue.



I like the landsmeet myself. The loot table is horrible it would be nice if either Bioware or a modder from the community fixes this problem. As far as variation of gear this makes sense as in the elderscrolls games weapons and armor are pretty plain it is the modding community that always makes the great looking variety of stuff. Although they could have made it a bit more varied than what they did they did get a bit stuck on stupid in repeating textures for weapons and armor in this game. But I have hope the modders will fix this.



Auto Res on spot I have no problem with personally there is a such thing as to mush realism, and i hate res points and such. Overall I would rate the game a 9.5 are there things missed they could have done yes. but the detail, scope, innovation they put into this game can't be denied. they raised the bar for this style of game and should be congratulated. The rest either they will fix over time or modders will fix it. In last comment here one thing they should have done though is make the game completely open ended so you can revisit all map locations after the end of the game like in classic games of the genre Oblivion, and elder scrolls 3 morrowind.

[kraftykid114]

Imrahil_ wrote...

kraftykid114 wrote...

apparently in order to make this game a 10.0 rating with said ultra realism, you would periodically need to have your character stop and use the bathroom, actually bathe to remove the obscene amount of blood from your skin, stop 5-6 times during a trip between locations if not more to eat and rest, buy new gear virtually every stop due to abuse, re-sharped your weapons, or buy more ammo....... the list goes on the point being this game w/o its obvious technicall issues is a 10, its "Fantasy" if the OP wants reality i suggest The Sims.

Did I say any of that or did you imagine it?  I mean, you can scroll back up to my OP & quote me if I actually said anything remotely close to that.  Should be easy.  Let me know if I said any of that.  I'll be anxiously awaiting you quoting me saying any of that, because I'd be the first to call me out on such ridiculous statements you imagined that I said.

Defensive much, i was poking fun, in case you didnt notice, if i were "flaming" you i would  have actually prodded at facts from your post.

[CloudOfShadows]

I think many good points were mentioned, and I can see how these are points were Dragon Age could have made things differently. I just wish to offer my differing opinion on the matter >.>

[quote]Imrahil_ wrote...
Enemy reasons:

- Dead Enemies Don't Drop All Loot - Basically, if I kill a guy obviously wearing plate mail & wielding a massive maul, I should be able to collect that plate mail & maul.  In Dragon Age, I might get a Health Poultice from him.  Games which let me loot everything the enemies were using, no matter that they may be useless & worth 2 cp, are just plain better.

- Dead Enemies Drop Silly Loot - An offshoot of the above point, if Wolves drop Health Poultices or High Dragons drop Chain Mail, I think that's silly.  Of course the High Dragon's hoard should have stuff like that, but its corpse shouldn't.  Silly.  Just... well... yeah, silly.  Why does that Spider have Heavy Chain Mail  or 31 cp on its corpse?
[/quote]

I prefer it that way. I don't want to lug some heavy ogre armor back to a vendor to sell it for 2 cp, I rather just pick up 2 cp. I don't really get much in the way of fun out of traveling to a merchant just to get space in inventory.

[quote]
Party reasons:

- Party Size - 4 person party < fun than 6 person party.  It just is.  And the restriction is felt more the lower the restriction goes (Wizardry had 8-person parties & that worked).  It limits my choice, it limits my interactions, it limits how much I can trade "utility" for "fun".[/quote]

I'm glad I only have to manage 4 people party. Because already with four characters, it can get a bit confusing in combat. It's a good limit. In the end, I want to play very few characters that I can focus on, not some (fake) RTS.

However, I wouldn't mind an option where the game allows you to scale to a party size of up to 8 characters. Just like Easy to Nightmare, it would have been great to pick a party size.

[quote]- Party Levels Up At Camp - I guess this is an attempt to compensate for the above point, but it makes no sense.  Why does Sten gain 5,000 xp by sitting at camp roasting marshmallows?[/quote]

Again, I prefer it to the alternative. Having to bring characters along that I don't like, or need, just to keep them up to par. It's not perfect, admittedly, but imho it was a good design decision. Imho: gameplay > realism.

[quote]- PC Can't Interject - One of my favorite things is interparty banter & party member interjections.  But in DA, the PC is mostly a bystander during banters.  I can't get involved in their conversations while we're running over bridges.[/quote]

Now this is something I would definitely LOVE to see. Please add in future games.

[quote]Combat reasons:

- Auto-Resurrection[/quote]

Sorry, I vote for no-resurrection.

I don't mind that characters don't die. I vastly prefer that over the issue of being able to resurrect people. Then you could let the poison kill the Arl, and simply resurrect him. Sure win, that. I think it's better that there are no powers that can resurrect so that when someone actually dies (which should only happen plot-wise) they are actually dead.

[quote]- Wounds Poorly Used 
- We Are All Half-Troll
[/quote]

I actually prefer the way Drakensang worked with wounds.

But I also GREATLY like the half-troll thing. It beats having to rest three times in a row just to get your party functioning again. It's the same as with inventory, I don't get much fun of trekking back to an inn. Rest. Rest. Rest. And then resume the adventure. It's just, Drakensang didn't suddenly switch off the regeneration when you entered combat, I think that would have been better yet, but maybe a bit too overpowered without the wounds-win way of Drakensang.

[quote]Gear reasons:

- Community Inventory Is Meh, But Backpacks Are Stupid [/quote]

Once more, I like that. I don't get much fun out of micro-managing which character has to character that new chunk of armor that one of them will be able to use in two levels. I really don't want to worry about that part. I would have greatly liked a party-camp storage box, but I suppose using Bella's store as a storage works as well - just more traveling involved.

[quote]- Lack Of Variation in Leather Armor & Mage Gear - You know this.  Everyone knows this.  Mentioned 1,000 1,001 times.[/quote]

Make it 1,002.

[quote]- Awesome Items Cost 100+ Gold - I'm gonna fold DLC items into this point as well. [/quote]

Actually, I don't mind the expensive items. That's a goal for people who really want them. I like that. I agree with the DLC part, though. It seems odd to make some items very difficult to attain - like 100+ gold - and at the same time throw DLC items into the players inventory at the start of the game. That seems more than a little unbalanced.

[quote]- No Activated Items[/quote]

I don't think it's a loss in the end. 'out-of-combat' activated items, if they are rechargable, why not make them permanent bonuses. The combat oriented consumable are nice, too.

[quote]- I Don't Know What My Gear Does - You've heard this.  What does "increases attack speed" mean?  What are my set bonuses?   What is a "massive attack bonus for a moderate time"?[/quote]

100% agreed.

[quote]- No Spears / Flails / Hammers / Katanas / Slings / Halberds / Throwing Weapons / Scimitars / (Warrior) Staves / Shortswords / Clubs[/quote]

I didn't miss them. Still, if you wanted them desperately, I agree, they are obviously absent.

[quote]Character customizability:

- Everyone Can Use Every Weapon[/quote]

Personally, I'm glad there's no silly 'warrior' only weapons. Everyone can pick up a maul and swing it. If they can use it effectively, in Dragon Age, is thankfully determined off their strength. So, if you build a mage with lots and lots of strength, they can make good use out of a Maul.

[quote]- Can't Create Your Party - I love character interaction & NPC banter, but the ability to create your whole party > the lack of the ability to create your whole party.  Just saying.[/quote]

Well! I'll happily agree to disagree with you there. I prefer not to build my own party, but rather travel with interesting NPCs. I'm glad that Bioware stuck with their usual way and provided truly interesting party members for me to travel with.

[quote]Some Campaign Specific Stuff:

The Landsmeet Is Dumb -  Gameplay > logic.[/quote]

And I'm glad this is so: Gameplay > logic.

[quote]Generic Fights[/quote]

I tend to agree with you there. Would have been a lot better if they had had more variety. But, personally, I don't mind so much, though, as there's really variety between the areas. Sure, last part and Orzammar shared the enemies, but that's okay, I think.

[quote]Stat Restricions On Gear [/quote]

Again, as you said, Gameplay > realism. I prefer this way to rate it. I want to play a game, not reality.

Still, it would have been nice if there had been some gear that was massive armor and offered really good protection while not requiring extremely high strength. But I didn't miss it.

Modifié par CloudOfShadows, 19 décembre 2009 - 12:37 .

[Dam Wookie]

Op. True. It's been a decade since those types of games were released though. Think you will get another one ever again?

[Koralis]

[quote]Imrahil_ wrote...
- Dead Enemies Don't Drop All Loot - Basically, if I kill a guy obviously wearing plate mail & wielding a massive maul, I should be able to collect that plate mail & maul.  In Dragon Age, I might get a Health Poultice from him.  Games which let me loot everything the enemies were using, no matter that they may be useless & worth 2 cp, are just plain better.
[/quote]

If they allowed that, then they'd have to make breastplates take up 10 spaces, legs, 3 spaces, 2h weapons 2 spaces, etc, and cause items to vanish over time if you didn't get it the first round.  This is a balance concern over how much money you have access to in game. 


- Dead Enemies Drop Silly Loot - An offshoot of the above point, if Wolves drop Health Poultices or High Dragons drop Chain Mail, I think that's silly.  Of course the High Dragon's hoard should have stuff like that, but its corpse shouldn't.  Silly.  Just... well... yeah, silly.  Why does that Spider have Heavy Chain Mail  or 31 cp on its corpse?

[quote] I can't set up complex tactics with 4 people.  And it limits the challenges I can face because it's always, always me & <=3 other people.  This one is especially noticeable in DA since all the NPC's are (almost) always available.  Why did Sten not accompany me into the Deep Roads?  Because of party size.  He wasn't doing anything.  He roasted marshmallows at camp the whole time because of party size, not story.
[/quote]

You can set up complex tactics with 4 people.  my first playthrough I had a shattering team... with morrigan tossing cones of cold and my combat stealth archer + Shale I had access to a lot of crits and shatters.

A different party will have 2 mages to more easily trigger spell combos like Storm of the Century.    A stunning shield warrior can let a Coup de Grace rogue go nuts. 

You can get complex tactics with 4 people.. you just don't have access to ALL possible complex tactics at all times.

[quote]
- Party Levels Up At Camp - I guess this is an attempt to compensate for the above point, but it makes no sense.  Why does Sten gain 5,000 xp by sitting at camp roasting marshmallows?[/quote]

Who cares?  You'd rather ensure that when you make a choice early on a bout a companion that you're stuck with them?

[quote]
- PC Can't Interject - One of my favorite things is interparty banter & party member interjections.  But in DA, the PC is mostly a bystander during banters.  I can't get involved in their conversations while we're running over bridges. 
[/quote]

It's background entertainment.  It's done while you're on-the-move.  To interject you'd need to stop and the game bring up the dialog menus.  Besides, who says that your companions can ever have a conversation between themselves?  The fact that you're overhearing it doesn't mean you should be intruding.  More to the point, if they DID allow you to get involved despite the above facts, that would mean they'd have more work involved in each one, which means fewer interactions total.


[quote]- Auto-Resurrection - This is an obvious console crutch.  Why do my characters auto-res after combat?  There is no death for the party as long as one of us survives?  Makes no sense.  Reduces any suspense to near nothing. 
[/quote]

As opposed to using a Token of Resurection to bring them back?  The only difference is an extra item slot.


[quote]- Community Inventory Is Meh, But Backpacks Are Stupid - They cost more than most magical items, give me 5 spaces, and... I... I... I just can't justify this in any way, shape or form.  This is blatant consolization.  It doesn't even try to hide.  It slaps me in the face with my PlayStation even though I play this game on my PC.[quote]

BG had the same thing.  Its 10 spaces though.  The only thing that's different is that you don't  have to open individual bags to see the items.

As for the cost, if you don't want the space, don't buy the bags.  They pay for themselves though, since they let you carry more to sell more.


[quote]
- Awesome Items Cost 100+ Gold - I'm gonna fold DLC items into this point as well.  There are soooo many items that should be drops from bosses, but are, instead, either given for free or cost 120 Gold from a merchant.  I can't even imagine a reason why this is better than a boss drop ([/quote]

Think about it this way if you'd rather... If you're playing a mage, and really want a staff upgrade, but the game gives you a great Massive Dragonbone Helmet, it's not desirable.  You may not even have anyone that can wear it.  The game was primarily designed around providing cash-over-time and letting the player make the choice on how they spend the money.

It's a design decision. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but they went a different way and it's not neccessarily a bad way.  It's a preference thing.

[quote]
 No equipment has an activated ability & the potions (other than health or mana) are uber-wimpy.  Rock Salve?  I don't even know what it does, which brings me to...
[/quote]

Rock Salve is great.   Allister used it to stand up to the Mage circle boss for a very long time (I was attempting to get the demon to wipe out all of the mages by simply outlasting him.)  Unforutnately I discovered that I was still doing too much damage and he died anyway.  Ah well... without the rock salve the healing needed was pretty high though.

I've used the grenades to win fights I couldn't otherwise... guys with crazy magic resist and/or armor take pretty good damage when bathed in acid. 

The problem with potions isn't the strength of them, the problem is bag space. Given the limited bag space, the fact that each potion/trap/poison type takes a space, along with each component used to make a potion, it's pretty easy to take up half of your inventory with potions, just-in-case.  They should just make these items take up a "special" inventory category like quest items do.  Unlimited components, and X potion/traps/poison slots.  That would reduce the inclination to say "I'm never going to use this... sell."

[quote]
- Everyone Can Use Every Weapon - A mace is not the same as a sword is not the same as an axe.  Except they are in this game.  It should take different skills to wield them.  A swordmaster should not automatically be just as good with a mace.  Maul Greatsword.  Granted, they have different stats, but that's it.  Ridiculous.  "Sword" & Shield talents don't care if you have a sword, mace, or axe (or dagger) in your main hand.
[/quote]

Which weapon couldn't a BG warrior use?  Exotics?  There are none in this game.   Explain how this is different from the D&D games?  That a mage CAN equip a maul?  They could in D&D too... they'd just be unproficient at it and miss alot.   Same deal with DAO, actually. 

If they had made a sword skill tree, and a mace skill tree, and an axe skill tree, etc, then you'd basically be locked into your weapon forever.  That always sucks.


[quote]Stat Restricions On Gear - How much does Dragonbone weigh?!?  42 Strength?!?  Better materials should sometimes mean *lighter* weight, not heavier, although there should be some ridulously heavy armors, I guess.  The system in DA is flat out gameplay > realism.  There are Heavy Plates that provide more protection & less fatigue for less Strength than some Heavy Chain Mails with less protection & greater fatigue.  Because of what they are made of?  Just. Plain. Poorly. Designed.  Minor gripe, I guess, but if I don't put it in now, well... it's not like I'm gonna make another of these lists, right?
[/quote]

If they removed strength, they'd just replace it with Levels that is much more restrictive and arbitrary.  

Materials are materials.  You could always get armors that have +armor or +defense stats to mimic the protection of the other materials for less strength/fatigue.

Modifié par Koralis, 19 décembre 2009 - 12:48 .

[fantasypisces]

I'll only touch on a few things. The baddy you killed with the plate mail and maul just got gang rushed by your party. You don't think there is a chance that the plate mail and maul were completely damaged? Most games do this nowadays.



Same with the dragon dropping loot. The dragons loot cache is most likely on top of some huge mountain peak that no-one can get to. That is more 'realistic'. If you want it that realistic all the dragon would drop is his/her scale, and then you get nothing else (this being the high-dragon), the dragon in the brecillion forest has the treasure cache.



Your party members in camp gain experience because it is assumed they are doing something else other than just sitting in camp. For instance, the Deep Roads. If you don't take Oghren with you initially (then are forced to use him when you get to Branka) what do you think he did? Travel through the entire deep roads to the anvil of the void by himself? Don't be rediculous. More than likely all the companions went into the deep roads with you, but for game balance (ease of play) it is assumed you are really only using four.



But I do agree only having four companions is bullcrud, and that alone knocked the game from a 10 to a 9 for me. For the auto-ressurection, your companions didn't die, so they arn't really rezzed. They were simply too hurt to move, knocked unconscious, broke a foot, whatever. With only four people in the group this is better for gameplay reasons. If it was BGII style with six people in a group, then they probably would have actually had death. Then you had to rez them with a spell or go to some chapel.



Anyway, I didn't read everything, but there were some parts I skimmed ove.r

[krsboss]

OK, really in response to the OP, I totally disagree with his: enemy, party, combat, gear & campaign specific points...



...Dragon Age is a game and concessions have to be made in order to make it appealing to a general populace. I have been following the 'promise' of Dragonage since the first whispers were heard some 3-4 years ago; and personally feel that this origins story was just Bioware testing the water before commencing on a larger project, but that's neither here nor there....



...enemies dropping or not dropping loot is not really a major concern for me in what makes a great game...who's to say that Hurlock you just wtfpwned didn't have his Dragonbone plate cleaved down the middle so that it's now totally unwearble...or that that giant spider didn't devour a health poultice that passed through it's bodily system without...



...wrt the combat system, Bioware have designed a functional system that works. Yes there should be more penalties for dying (falling unconcious), however having players force rest to regain spells and recover is just as inconceivable and dumb...oh down to 1hp, 24 hours rest and we're good to go...



...anyway, I digress, where I agree with the OP is in the Character Customizability stakes. I find that either talents are too easily gained, skills are useless and that basically there is no skill in making a decent character...it's all been nerfed! Once you hit lvl 13+ all characters tend towards the same. There is not eneough benefit from taking one specific talent over another as you are basically going to gain them all anyway, and the talents don't really give enough of a bonus to make anything particularly worthwhile.



Though one level 20 rogue may choose to specialize more in rogue skills than another, whilst the other goes for two-weapon fighting, there's nothing really that necessarily sets them apart. From a PvP multiplayer point of view, there is very little way of designing a character to make it better than anyone elses, which is fundamentally flawed.



Larger talent trees with more unatainability would force a more specific angling of a character, whilst increasing the power of talents but decreasing the rate they are gained would have the same effect. However, as a PC gamer, I see that the nerfing of character building complexity is a bid to appeal to the console game players, who, on average, are not looking for the level of game complexity that PC games can provide, otherwise they would be playing on a PC!



...on the whole DragonAge is a pretty awesome game, however I guess it is really ultimately designed as a role playing game, meaning that the game is all about the role you play...which it fulfills admirably!

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

I really don't have the time to make the comments I could so easily do to this hypocritical twaddle the OP has made, so I'll just state it for what it is.



Seriously, did you proof read what you wrote before posting?

[Skellimancer]

Good points, OP.



100% agreed.

[TMZuk]

Imrahil_ wrote...

I've played through all the origins now & finished the game 4 times.  I'm currently alternating my Dwarf noble & City Elf & will finish with both of them.  I'll replay more in the future.  This game is flat out fun.

So, with that said, here's the reasons I can't give this game a 10.0 out of 10.0 & why it loses points with me.

Now, I've played BG, BG2 (& ToB), Drakensang, IWD, IWD II, original flavor Bard's Tale I-II-II (& the FPS reincarnation that sucked), most gold box SSI games, Ultima I-IV, Dragon Wars, Wasteland, Might & Magic I-IX, Buck Rogers gold box, a few of the Wizardry games, Fallout 1 & 2, Wizard's Crown, Wizards & Warriors, ... etc., others I've forgotten.  I'm by no means saying these games are better than DA, just that I've played them, fwiw.  Weirdest resume I've ever assembled.

So anyway, I'm "old-school" I guess, & maybe my criticisms can be put down to nostalgia, but here goes.  Here's what I find wrong with Dragon Age that makes me "dislike" the game, *given that I enjoy it immensely, have replayed several times & will replay several times more*.  Most of these are kind of minor on their own, but taken all together, detract from a great game experience, IMO.

Reasons why no game that has these characteristics will ever get a 10 out of 10 from me, & Dragon Age has these...

Enemy reasons:

- Dead Enemies Don't Drop All Loot - Basically, if I kill a guy obviously wearing plate mail & wielding a massive maul, I should be able to collect that plate mail & maul.  In Dragon Age, I might get a Health Poultice from him.  Games which let me loot everything the enemies were using, no matter that they may be useless & worth 2 cp, are just plain better.

- Dead Enemies Drop Silly Loot - An offshoot of the above point, if Wolves drop Health Poultices or High Dragons drop Chain Mail, I think that's silly.  Of course the High Dragon's hoard should have stuff like that, but its corpse shouldn't.  Silly.  Just... well... yeah, silly.  Why does that Spider have Heavy Chain Mail  or 31 cp on its corpse?

Party reasons:

- Party Size - 4 person party < fun than 6 person party.  It just is.  And the restriction is felt more the lower the restriction goes (Wizardry had 8-person parties & that worked).  It limits my choice, it limits my interactions, it limits how much I can trade "utility" for "fun".  In DA, I can't really see how Sten-Dog-Alistair interact without sacrificing party utility.  I can't see how Oghren-(Spoiler)-Shale interact.  I can't set up complex tactics with 4 people.  And it limits the challenges I can face because it's always, always me & <=3 other people.  This one is especially noticeable in DA since all the NPC's are (almost) always available.  Why did Sten not accompany me into the Deep Roads?  Because of party size.  He wasn't doing anything.  He roasted marshmallows at camp the whole time because of party size, not story.

- Party Levels Up At Camp - I guess this is an attempt to compensate for the above point, but it makes no sense.  Why does Sten gain 5,000 xp by sitting at camp roasting marshmallows?

- PC Can't Interject - One of my favorite things is interparty banter & party member interjections.  But in DA, the PC is mostly a bystander during banters.  I can't get involved in their conversations while we're running over bridges. 

Combat reasons:

- Auto-Resurrection - This is an obvious console crutch.  Why do my characters auto-res after combat?  There is no death for the party as long as one of us survives?  Makes no sense.  Reduces any suspense to near nothing. 

- Wounds Poorly Used - If you're going to have Wounds, have more ways to inflict them.  Have them matter.  Have them occur *during* combat.  As it is, they are only a very mild penalty for "dying".  Meaning no penalty at all as long as you have an Injury Kit of some sort.

- We Are All Half-Troll - First off, I understand that resting to regain spells is a bad system as well, in that it is annoying, but at least it has an explanation.  I can *believe* it, if I must.  But We Are All @100% 15 seconds after combat is equally bad, just on the other extreme.  What kind of superhuman Wolverines am I running with?  Arl Howe should have been back at 100% health just during his dying speech!

Gear reasons:

- Community Inventory Is Meh, But Backpacks Are Stupid - They cost more than most magical items, give me 5 spaces, and... I... I... I just can't justify this in any way, shape or form.  This is blatant consolization.  It doesn't even try to hide.  It slaps me in the face with my PlayStation even though I play this game on my PC.

- Lack Of Variation in Leather Armor & Mage Gear - You know this.  Everyone knows this.  Mentioned 1,000 1,001 times.

- Awesome Items Cost 100+ Gold - I'm gonna fold DLC items into this point as well.  There are soooo many items that should be drops from bosses, but are, instead, either given for free or cost 120 Gold from a merchant.  I can't even imagine a reason why this is better than a boss drop (or, rather, a boss's hoard drop if it makes no sense they'd be carrying it when they fight you - see above).  The Edge?  Best dagger ever for free?  Except maybe for that 120 gp dagger?  Just bad all around.

- No Activated Items - I really, really hate this.  To use Baldur's Gate as a reference, no Heroism Potions, Helm of Brilliance, Sunburst from Daystar, etc.  I'd like to see, for example, Cunning Potions one could use when encountering a high-end (useless) chest (that should've been a point - chests are useless!), temporary Coercion+1 potions or something, or Magic Resistance Potions for boss fights, or +Strength activated item for... ok, boss fights.  No equipment has an activated ability & the potions (other than health or mana) are uber-wimpy.  Rock Salve?  I don't even know what it does, which brings me to...

- I Don't Know What My Gear Does - You've heard this.  What does "increases attack speed" mean?  What are my set bonuses?   What is a "massive attack bonus for a moderate time"?

- No Spears / Flails / Hammers / Katanas / Slings / Halberds / Throwing Weapons / Scimitars / (Warrior) Staves / Shortswords / Clubs - Obviously, a game that has these > a game that doesn't, so the fact that DA doesn't have them due to animation limitations detracts.  Obviously.  I don't care how real-world realistic "we couldn't afford to create those animations" is, you gotta accept the hit.  "We couldn't program something that is just plain obviously lacking" is... ok? I guess... but you *have* to recognize that your game suffers for it.  Mightily.  Obviously. (almost used a different word - sorry)

Character customizability:

After playing through all the origins & classes, I'm not sure how my future characters might be distinct, other than Mages (& role-playing, yes, but I'm talking about gameplay)...

- Everyone Can Use Every Weapon - A mace is not the same as a sword is not the same as an axe.  Except they are in this game.  It should take different skills to wield them.  A swordmaster should not automatically be just as good with a mace.  Maul Greatsword.  Granted, they have different stats, but that's it.  Ridiculous.  "Sword" & Shield talents don't care if you have a sword, mace, or axe (or dagger) in your main hand.

- Can't Create Your Party - I love character interaction & NPC banter, but the ability to create your whole party > the lack of the ability to create your whole party.  Just saying.

Some Campaign Specific Stuff:

(Spoiler)

Generic Fights - There's like, a dozen different enemies, total.  And I fight them over and over and over and over.  And they always act the same.  If you had used Orcs/Goblins/Ogres instead of Hurlocks/Genlocks/Ogres, this would be much more obvious, I think, but just renaming the generic horde we fight over and over and over and over is just an illusion.

Stat Restricions On Gear - How much does Dragonbone weigh?!?  42 Strength?!?  Better materials should sometimes mean *lighter* weight, not heavier, although there should be some ridulously heavy armors, I guess.  The system in DA is flat out gameplay > realism.  There are Heavy Plates that provide more protection & less fatigue for less Strength than some Heavy Chain Mails with less protection & greater fatigue.  Because of what they are made of?  Just. Plain. Poorly. Designed.  Minor gripe, I guess, but if I don't put it in now, well... it's not like I'm gonna make another of these lists, right?


Whew.  With all that said, I enjoy this game a lot.  Granted this is a very large compliment-criticism-compliment sandwich (go back to the paragraph one - I started with compliments - sandwich on!), but please don't underestimate how much I enjoy this game.  I just don't love it.  8.0 out of 10.0.  But if I didn't *really* like this game, I wouldn't bother typing all this out, so take that for what it's worth.


tl;dr.  beat you to it.

I pretty much agree with it all. Furthermore I don't find the sidequests interesting at all, and furthermore the DLC is dissapointing in the extreme. The main plot is what makes this game so good. I just wish more effort had been put into the rest.

Modifié par Torias, 19 décembre 2009 - 11:13 .

[MOTpoetryION]

I agree with almost every single thing of the OP. And some have probibly seen a few of my posts in the same line as his .And yes i m also an old school gammer probibly was playing games before some of you were even born . my first game when it came out was pong ,first system commidor64 with a woping 8 bits . First hand held was one of those football games that were just little LED lights. t make it short i played a few games and watched the indusry grow



I have every system except dreamcast.and finally stopped buying consoles at the 360 and ps3 .i just got tired of being just a $ sign to the makers .any of you ever get pissed that when a new console came out that they just wanted as much money from us as possible.If they had a better veiw of us or even cared at all they would of at least made the connecters and controller ports the same. but no ,they wanted us to buy new ones every time more money .I

have so many controlers i think they are becoming self aware.



Well im getting tired of just being a $ sign to them .now these days im paying alot of $$$ to beta test thier games for them . Its happening all the time now they start selling the game and most of the time a patch is out to fix all the problems that were missed by beta testers/ya ok. and when i post things that i find am always told oh its my system BS my system is fine /check out one of my posts and see what my first play through was like . the post starts out "an older topic i posted "



Take a look im not about to type it again .And the one before that where i was called everything .by people that had no idea what i was seeing .but it was my system .No its the coding. So i have to add to this that again you can see so much talent behind this game it could of been epic in so many areas. but failed in most of them . loading screen times from days gone by . memory leaks lazy in some places in regards to holes in the mesh where you can just walk through the wall into the beyond .

I 'll be blunt BIOWARE you need to once and for all build a modern day AI .IMO all the tactics was just a weak attempt to cover up your failed AI .And tried to play it off like it was some new feature.no game that i can remember let you pause a fight.but we had to to correct the AI.most of the time after my first shots hit 2 of 3 of my guys would turn around and run away for a bit while the dark spawn where baring down on me .waisting at least time to get 2 more shots off but diddnt because of this running backwards stuff. I would of been just fine with a "The nearest enamy KILL"



This game seemed to me like jeckle and hyde fresh inovative ideas on one hand with oldish tech.on the other If it was space issues you could of left out the bras , morrigan covered up more to make love then she was just walking around .first time

i seen it i almost cryed for you .why right now there probibly already should be some new places/

areas almost made there is not .WHY because they started , with finishing up things like textures more swords and armor insterad of just 5 or so , but one of the first things was a chest in camp,

only offering one in a DLC was weak EA.. And feel it was in bad taste what the edge reads,it can be yours for the low price of.

And Its a 17+ rating that to me means 6 months away from adulthood. come on they show more on tv. There is nothing wrong with the human body nothing to be ashamed of . Im not talking about wanting a soft core porn ,given at least the option would of been nice to remove the bra. Mostly at the root of some of the problems is/was all the WOW/players. Yep i went there,



We have not yet seen the worst i fear ,the industry just watched the money come in month after month.and it started a feeding frenzy all the pay to play BS needs to stop. .there is more sorrow to come because of WOW. i see bloated projected proffits not being met games dieing early .Bad reveiws because they are just trying to get the games out to fast .to market. EA if you want to make more money STOP spending so much on ads/commercials we know when games are comming out. You are wasting money .And trying to recop it from the ones that mean the most the gammer. you know the little $ signs running around .



Last thing EA i thank you for Saving some small game makers that might be or are going under.because you help the games they already working on be finished .But stop buying up everyone and spreading your taint. Stick with your cookie cutter sports games .and let the talent make epic games .I have a feeling this games problems can be traced back to you EA

And BIOWARE .you have talent it seems comming out the ying yang .I Really hope you make a DAO #2 and and really show us what an EPIC game is like.I know you guys can do it.Just dont let

others hold you back at anything,But you really need an AI .

More and more EA is just raping the game industy with us along with it .they just manged to sell a game for 70-75 $ thats a 25 $ jump,should of kept shale for a head start for #2 IMO. And read my other post it was a wild playthrough for the first one .Im playing again and so far so good so its not my system. please please read my other post first. before flamming me thanks



SO untill all things are fixed including this site ironicly a C+

[Hound of Culain]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Enemy reasons:

- Dead Enemies Don't Drop All Loot - Basically, if I kill a guy obviously wearing plate mail & wielding a massive maul, I should be able to collect that plate mail & maul.  In Dragon Age, I might get a Health Poultice from him.  Games which let me loot everything the enemies were using, no matter that they may be useless & worth 2 cp, are just plain better.

If you kill a guy obviously wearing plate mail & wielding a massive maul, you shouldn't be able to collect it, because plate mail and massive mauls are far too heavy to carry around while simultaneously fighting off hordes of enemies. Don't paint it as realism v. gameplay. It's one unrealistic option v another. The way they've gone means you don't end up packing your inventory with a full set of armour from every enemy you kill, just to sell. Personally, I can see a lot of sense in that decision.

Imrahil_ wrote...
- Dead Enemies Drop Silly Loot - An offshoot of the above point, if Wolves drop Health Poultices or High Dragons drop Chain Mail, I think that's silly.  Of course the High Dragon's hoard should have stuff like that, but its corpse shouldn't.  Silly.  Just... well... yeah, silly.  Why does that Spider have Heavy Chain Mail  or 31 cp on its corpse?

Agree to an extent, but it's possible the dragon has loads of undigested armour in its stomach from previous meals. Personally I don't find the issue important.

Imrahil_ wrote...


Combat reasons:

- Auto-Resurrection - This is an obvious console crutch.  Why do my characters auto-res after combat?  There is no death for the party as long as one of us survives?  Makes no sense.  Reduces any suspense to near nothing.

It's been said, but party members don't die; they're incapacitated by injuries. Also, perma death for party members is not fun, and would just lead me (and, I assume, most people), to reload every time a party member died, while resurrection seems to me to be one of the dafter gameplay mechanics. It's rare to find gameplay that is both completely unrealistic and frustrating.

Imrahil_ wrote... 

- We Are All Half-Troll - First off, I understand that resting to regain spells is a bad system as well, in that it is annoying, but at least it has an explanation.  I can *believe* it, if I must.  But We Are All @100% 15 seconds after combat is equally bad, just on the other extreme.  What kind of superhuman Wolverines am I running with?  Arl Howe should have been back at 100% health just during his dying speech!

With no regeneration, you go back to camp after every battle, which is more annoying than -> slow regeneration, where you have to wait ages after a battle to heal, which is more annoying than -> fast regeneration, where you have to wait a short time after a battle to heal, which is more annoying than -> instant regeneration, which would be my preference.

Also, you've just played through a game where you've killed dragons, been frozen, engulfed in fire, electrocuted, stabbed, slashed, smashed, crushed and chewed on multiple times without dying, where you can be fighting someone blade to blade and suddenly disappear into thin air and they don't bat an eyelid, and this is what suggests to you that the characters are superhuman?

Imrahil_ wrote...

Gear reasons:

- Community Inventory Is Meh, But Backpacks Are Stupid - They cost more than most magical items, give me 5 spaces, and... I... I... I just can't justify this in any way, shape or form.  This is blatant consolization.  It doesn't even try to hide.  It slaps me in the face with my PlayStation even though I play this game on my PC.

- Lack Of Variation in Leather Armor & Mage Gear - You know this.  Everyone knows this.  Mentioned 1,000 1,001 times.

Agree for the most part, although backpacks are definitely value for money.

Imrahil_ wrote...

- Awesome Items Cost 100+ Gold - I'm gonna fold DLC items into this point as well.  There are soooo many items that should be drops from bosses, but are, instead, either given for free or cost 120 Gold from a merchant.  I can't even imagine a reason why this is better than a boss drop (or, rather, a boss's hoard drop if it makes no sense they'd be carrying it when they fight you - see above).  The Edge?  Best dagger ever for free?  Except maybe for that 120 gp dagger?  Just bad all around.

I think this is balanced pretty well. It forces a choice between which one or two uber items you're going to get for your party.

Imrahil_ wrote...

- No Spears / Flails / Hammers / Katanas / Slings / Halberds / Throwing Weapons / Scimitars / (Warrior) Staves / Shortswords / Clubs - Obviously, a game that has these > a game that doesn't, so the fact that DA doesn't have them due to animation limitations detracts.  Obviously.  I don't care how real-world realistic "we couldn't afford to create those animations" is, you gotta accept the hit.  "We couldn't program something that is just plain obviously lacking" is... ok? I guess... but you *have* to recognize that your game suffers for it.  Mightily.  Obviously. (almost used a different word - sorry)

I don't see the point in carefully crafting a world with history and myths, and then inserting obviously out of place weapons like katanas and scimitars. Mauls are hammers, daggers are shortswords, maces are clubs, flails are stupid weapons. Spears and halberds only really make sense in formation or from/against horses, so they don't really fit the situation. There's a reason slings went out of fashion - they're not as effective as bows. Why include something that most people would (sensibly) never use. There could be a place for throwing weapons and staves, I guess.

Imrahil_ wrote...

Character customizability:

After playing through all the origins & classes, I'm not sure how my future characters might be distinct, other than Mages (& role-playing, yes, but I'm talking about gameplay)...

- Everyone Can Use Every Weapon - A mace is not the same as a sword is not the same as an axe.  Except they are in this game.  It should take different skills to wield them.  A swordmaster should not automatically be just as good with a mace.  Maul Greatsword.  Granted, they have different stats, but that's it.  Ridiculous.  "Sword" & Shield talents don't care if you have a sword, mace, or axe (or dagger) in your main hand.

Combat training covers weapon skills. Clearly in Ferelden it's consider important to be able to fight with whatever is to hand. The weapon talents are all pretty generic - it isn't hard too imagine that learning how to deliver a mighty blow with a maul is not too different to delivering one with a greatsword.

I'd actually love a game where there is a huge range of different weapons, and different styles of fighting with those weapons, etc. But that would be essentially impossible alongside the talent system, which I also really like. No game can do everything.

Imrahil_ wrote...

Whew.  With all that said, I enjoy this game a lot.  Granted this is a very large compliment-criticism-compliment sandwich (go back to the paragraph one - I started with compliments - sandwich on!), but please don't underestimate how much I enjoy this game.  I just don't love it.  8.0 out of 10.0.  But if I didn't *really* like this game, I wouldn't bother typing all this out, so take that for what it's worth.

No game is perfect. I've not played Baldur's Gate (yeah, I know) but I can assure you that wasn't perfect either. I guess your point with this post was not merely to whinge, but to provide Bioware with constructive criticism. With all due respect though, most of your points are personal preferences - things Bioware will probably have weighed up and ultimately decided that the way they've done it is best, and I'm sure they'll make most of the same decisions for future games.

There are other rpg developers out there who will have make different decisions with their games, but the fact is, Bioware rpgs are the best because they make the best design choices.

[Rogue Roxy]

But.... it IS a 10. *shrug*



~ Roxy

[DKJaigen]

I dont agree with the OP. some good points on char customization. but then again we have to remember that this game isn't using dnd 3/4 and didn't have a decade to develop. anyway i hope that their will be more and more expansive talents tree's in the future



I dont agree on the loot problems its more a balance issue



Current ressing after combat also works fine. in other games you had to walk to a temple or some other kind of nonsense and it really got annoying after a while.



Community inventory is freaking awesome makes everything a lot more manageable.



Item cost is fine as well. An awesome item should have an awesome price cost attached to it



What use are different weapon settings anyway. look i can stab a spear whoopy ****ing doo. To be honest DOA has a better weapon selection choice then most dnd games as choosing a sword over an axe has implications.



i still give this game a 9.5

[Drakron]

Imrahil_ wrote...
- Auto-Resurrection - This is an obvious console crutch.  Why do my characters auto-res after combat?  There is no death for the party as long as one of us survives?  Makes no sense.  Reduces any suspense to near nothing. 

The issue is death.

If there are ressurection mechanics in the world then questions start to be asked, many people think death should be permanent that creates conflict with systems as D&D were at higher levels death is simply a occupational hazard.

That leave us with the mechanic, having a party member killed means wasting time and resources to raise him .... nothing more.

- Everyone Can Use Every Weapon - A mace is not the same as a sword is not the same as an axe.  Except they are in this game.  It should take different skills to wield them.  A swordmaster should not automatically be just as good with a mace.  Maul Greatsword.  Granted, they have different stats, but that's it.  Ridiculous.  "Sword" & Shield talents don't care if you have a sword, mace, or axe (or dagger) in your main hand.

class resitictions are ABSURD, few systems use then as they are illogical.

Also I could point out "skills" would be slashing, trusting, bashing and piercing as they are what you DO with the weapons, a mace bashes and the general notion is the same if you are using a mace or a hammer despite their diferences.

Of course I know of no system that uses that as a skill and just throws weapon into groups without much consideration of how it deals damage, I think in the end any "realistic" system would end up very complex without being better that more simplistic system (like armor).

So DA:O uses talents, its a system as mage can use a sword but lacks the talent tree to use it as effective as a fighter and the rogue also lacks the talents in certain weapons to be as capable as a fighter.

Modifié par Drakron, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[Lucy Glitter]

It comes down to the bugs and the design. That's it.

[Calara]

Good post from the OP, I agree with most of it. I think a lot of the things you bring up are due to concessions that have to be made to allow consoles to play this game. The lack of different armour models and the tiny variety of monster models is probably due to that. The inventory system is a product of the limitations of console gamepads.

I personally dont like games being available on multi platform like this. Consoles are an entirely different market, with gamers looking for a completely different gaming experience. Games made available for consoles always have these kinds of limitations and are the worse for it. Sadly, developers can squeeze a lot of money from the console market, so I dont think you will every again see games at the high calibre of BG, Fallout 1+ 2 or Torment which were designed purely for the pc market.
 
I also really strongly prefer larger party sizes, but Ive see this kind of thing getting backlash from less capable gamers. I remember reading player criticisms about the Baldurs gate series complaining about having to "manage a whole party" and why they couldnt just control one character. I enjoy the npc interactions, but I also really like to completely make my own party. At least with the mods available, you can completely respec some of the odder character talent choices.

I enjoyed the DLC, but giving away such powerful weapons and armour, with no in-game effort cheapens the entire loot and equipment side of the game. I suspect that the reason why item progression in this game makes no sense whatsoever, is due to the multi-path nature of the quests and the scaling monsters. They couldnt put fixed loot in for bosses, because it wouldnt scale correctly. Putting most of the best gear on npc venders is obviously a crutch to counter the scaling problems. This is actually one of the game design decisions that I really dont like at all. You have to do all the different quest 'branches' eventually, so why make it open ended? I never really felt like I was being forced along rails in the Baldurs gate series for example, but some areas were a lot tougher than others and you went there at your own risk. This meant that Bioware didnt have to worry about random scaling, so they could actually put powerful weapons and armour as rewards for bosses. There is nothing more anti-climactic than fighting a powerful boss and getting crap loot as a reward.

Anyway, I enjoyed Dragon Age a lot but if these points that the OP raises were addressed, the game would be perfect. I just hope that some of this kind of feedback will be taken on board for the next Dragon age game.

Modifié par Calara, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Skellimancer]

Calara wrote...

Good post from the OP, I agree with most of it. I think a lot of the things you bring up are due to concessions that have to be made to allow consoles to play this game. The lack of different armour models and the tiny variety of monster models is probably due to that. The inventory system is a product of the limitations of console gamepads.

I personally dont like games being available on multi platform like this. Consoles are an entirely different market, with gamers looking for a completely different gaming experience. Games made available for consoles always have these kinds of limitations and are the worse for it. Sadly, developers can squeeze a lot of money from the console market, so I dont think you will every again see games at the high calibre of BG, Fallout 1+ 2 or Torment which were designed purely for the pc market.
 

Hmmm, not sure consoles are to blame, take a look at this video of the unreleased Playstation version of Baldur's Gate.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Calara]

That video didnt show anything from the inventory management side though? The game was also never released, so they obviously couldnt get it to work fully (and be playable) on a playstation.

Modifié par Calara, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:42 .

[Hahren]

Am I alone in my joy for not seeing a katana in this game? I really feel that eastern weapons would be really out of place in DA. At no point during the game did I find mention of a country similar to Japan. You have England, Italy/Spain, Germany, and French. They keep the gear in line with European technology. The most exotic styles of swords/daggers come from elves, and that is a nice touch. I think it actually goes a long way towards immersion to keep out weapons that do not have corresponding cultures.



One nitpick I have about the game is how the origins are handled in relation to character customization. I can make a Cousland that doesn't look anything like his parents or brother! There is no explanation for why my PC has 6 shades darker skin, black hair, and dark eyes. No mention of adoption, marriage before Bryce (hah), or the mailman. In a lesser respect the same could be said for the city elf/dwarf commoner. With the dwarven noble I have an easier time buying into this happening due to their culture.



Only in the case of the mage/dalish origin are you given no point of reference to what your family may look like. So you can go wild creating a character, and then not start the game going "Who the **** are these people?". Basically if I am going to be forced to be a member of a family then the creation process should either A) have parameters that can not be changed or with little variation, have a reason already set up as to why I might look different. I know there is variation in how close family resemblance can be, but you have potential to take it to extremes in DA.

[Skellimancer]

Calara wrote...

That video didnt show anything from the inventory management side though? The game was also never released, so they obviously couldnt get it to work fully (and be playable) on a playstation.

There were more videos, but they seem to be missing.

The game looked very slow, every conversation triggered a loading icon for up to 3 seconds.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Anyone that thinks consoles are to blame in my opinion is seriously living in the previous decade and I'm talking of the early part of that decade too.



The 360 and the PS3 have the specs that some peoples computers don't have (Granted I am not referring to the hardcore PC gamers with their Gamer rigs).



Now if you think they should solely cater for those with the high end PC rigs, then thank the maker you ain't in charge any game developing company because not everyone that plays PC games can afford such.

[Calara]

Skellimancer wrote...
There were more videos, but they seem to be missing.

The game looked very slow, every conversation triggered a loading icon for up to 3 seconds.

Hardware has always been a serious console limitation. The modern consoles (eg xbox360) are several years old now, and cant be expected to cope with the same kind of game that my modern PC gaming rig can.

Console hardware < PC hardware

Console gamepad < mouse and keyboard.

When you have to design for the weakest link, then obviously the PC game suffers.

[Skellimancer]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Anyone that thinks consoles are to blame in my opinion is seriously living in the previous decade and I'm talking of the early part of that decade too.

The 360 and the PS3 have the specs that some peoples computers don't have (Granted I am not referring to the hardcore PC gamers with their Gamer rigs).

Now if you think they should solely cater for those with the high end PC rigs, then thank the maker you ain't in charge any game developing company because not everyone that plays PC games can afford such.

Well said.

I wish Bioware still used the Infinity Engine, they could release it on the DS and PSP too.

Ah, if only..

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Calara wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...
There were more videos, but they seem to be missing.

The game looked very slow, every conversation triggered a loading icon for up to 3 seconds.

Hardware has always been a serious console limitation. The modern consoles (eg xbox360) are several years old now, and cant be expected to cope with the same kind of game that my modern PC gaming rig can.

Console hardware < PC hardware

Console gamepad < mouse and keyboard.

When you have to design for the weakest link, then obviously the PC game suffers.

As per previous post, that is all fine and dandy for people whom are constantly upgrading their PC to be the best on the gaming side of things, but I imagine there is a lot of PC owners whom play DAO that DON'T have the same kind of rig you do.

Also not sure about 360, but one could argue that it is a dev fault for not thinking that the consoles can utilise keyboards just as well which they can. So that argument is mute too.

So the PC game doesn't have to suffer.

Case in point Mass Effect, it was originally out on the X-Box and then came to the PC, far as I recall it was a hit in BOTH markets.