303 réponses à ce sujet

[ld1449]

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

[Applepie_Svk]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have asked you several times to provide proof in the game that anyone other than the kid can authenticate what the citadel/crucible do.

Vendetta mentions that the Protheans revealed that similar patterns of evolution and dissolution occur in every galactic cycle, with each path of advancement and conflict happening differently but in fundamentally similar ways - too similar to be merely chance. Whether these similarities include synthetic/organic confrontation, indoctrinated splinter groups, or structure of galactic politics remains unclear. 

Vendetta :

Crucible is not of Prothean design, it is the work of countless galactic cycles stretching back of million of years. Each cycle add to it. Each improves upon on it. Thus far, none have succesfully defeated the Reapers with it.  

We were sabotaged from within. A splitner group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
It fractured our order of battle. Later, we have discovered the separatist were indoctrinate.

Catalyst:

We first noted the concept for this concept several cycles ago, with each passing cycle the design has no doubt evolved.

We believed that concept had been eradicated, clearly are organics more resourcefull than we realized... 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have evidence of those which came before us and they get same proof from civilization before... against Catalyst - Reapers themselves, and what´s saying Catalyst is irrelevant because he has no proof which would say in his favor and we have only evidence which saying against him, in other words:
Accused cannot break evidence without proofs which would say in his favor - GUILTY !

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 27 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

ld1449 wrote...

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

Yes, the kid says this.  So if you believe it is then you believe the kid and because you do, you have to believe the choices were from him.

[Memnon]

ld1449 wrote...

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

This is fundamentally what we have saying throughout the thread - the argument seems to be that Bioware says it's so, so we have to be wrong no matter how ridiculous it sounds. That's basically why I've given up here ...

[3DandBeyond]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have asked you several times to provide proof in the game that anyone other than the kid can authenticate what the citadel/crucible do.

Vendetta mentions that the Protheans revealed that similar patterns of evolution and dissolution occur in every galactic cycle, with each path of advancement and conflict happening differently but in fundamentally similar ways - too similar to be merely chance. Whether these similarities include synthetic/organic confrontation, indoctrinated splinter groups, or structure of galactic politics remains unclear. 


Vendetta:

Citadel is Catalyst 

Catalyst :

I am the Catalyst

Vendetta :

Crucible is not of Prothean design, it is the work of countless galactic cycles stretching back of million of years. Each cycle add to it. Each improves upon on it. Thus far, none have succesfully defeated the Reapers with it.  

We were sabotaged from within. A splitner group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
It fractured our order of battle. Later, we have discovered the separatist were indoctrinate.

Catalyst:

We first noted the concept for this concept several cycles ago, with each passing cycle the design has no doubt evolved.

We believed that concept had been eradicated, clearly are organics more resourcefull than we realized... 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have evidence of those which came before us and they get same proof from civilization before... against Catalyst himself, and what´s saying Catalyst is irrelevant because he has no proof which would say in his favor and we have only evidence which saying against him, in other words:
Accused cannot break evidence without proofs which would say in his favor - GUILTY !

I apologize because I don't fully understand you.  Sorry.  I believe you are also saying the Catalyst can't be his own witness.  I believe you are saying the catalyst can't offer proof in his favor and I agree with that.  Anything he says is not proof.

He does know of the crucible or so he says.  He also seems to be acting like he doesn't like it, but he could be lying.  He may want Shepard to think he dislikes certain choices or the choices because he might know whatever he likes is something Shepard wouldn't.



Ever see Princess Bride-there's the one scene with Vizzinni, I think his name is where he's trying to figure out which drink is poisoned.

http://www.bing.com/...tail&FORM=VIRE1

[3DandBeyond]

Stornskar wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

This is fundamentally what we have saying throughout the thread - the argument seems to be that Bioware says it's so, so we have to be wrong no matter how ridiculous it sounds. That's basically why I've given up here ...

We are wrong because we are not right.  This is why circular logic makes sense.

[ld1449]

Stornskar wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

This is fundamentally what we have saying throughout the thread - the argument seems to be that Bioware says it's so, so we have to be wrong no matter how ridiculous it sounds. That's basically why I've given up here ...

Sounds how a discussion with Maaze goes. Try squeezing water from a stone. You'll have better luck.

[elitehunter34]

I think people are getting caught up in this false dichotomy of "if the choices didn't come from the Crucible they must have come from the Catalyst." It didn't come from either of them. The Crucible might have altered the Destroy and Control apparatuses to perform new functions that they weren't able to do without the Crucible. I've already went over this with maaze on page 11 and he adjusted the OP accordingly.

[Carlthestrange]

The choices came from the script.

[Mazebook]

ld1449 wrote...

Actually acording to EC the crucible is little more than a power source. So if the choices came from anyone it came from the brat.

For the last time.

Yes, it mainly a power source but in combination with the citadel, it (the crucible) becomes something much more than that.

IT repurposes the Citadel and it´s mechanism.
to create the functions you see represented in these choices.

BUT...you don´t have to listen or believe the Catalyst to even come to this conclusion.

just ask yourself.

q: what is the intend of the designers of the crucible?
a: to end the cycle!

q: what is the intend of the Catalyst?
a: to execute his solution to his problem or find a better solution!

q: do destroy or control solve his problem?
a: I don´t see how...for a short time maybe...but not in the long run.

q : are the reapers a long run solution?
a : yes.



now tell me an arguement against that.

Modifié par maaaze, 28 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Mazebook]

3DandBeyond wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Show me one piece of evidence that is not cluttered with personal opinion how the ending makes no sense.

It makes no sense because your interpretation makes no sense.
In makes NO sense that the Catalyst created Destroy or Control...that these are his choices.
and  nowhere in the Game it is suggested that these are his choices.

Not only that...but there is a ton of evidence that these are not his choices!

I will not again repeat them all...read my responses on by one.

and then, if you like..give me one piece of evidence to the contrairy that is not cluttered with...oh the ending makes no sense...nonsense.

This is what you constantly do.  I have along with others repeatedly given you explanation.  All you come back with is it makes no sense.

I have asked you several times to provide proof in the game that anyone other than the kid can authenticate what the citadel/crucible do.

It is irrelevant and not proof to say that the choices are real because he says one is destroy and one is control and he would not make them.  He is telling you they are destroy and control, but you have no proof they are.

Again, provide proof other than what the kid says that shows the choices were not made by the kid.

You say there's evidence but have not provided it ever.  Anything based on what the kid says is not proof.


My proof is there is no one other than the kid that knows what the choices will do or that knows they exist.  They are in his house, a place that is a part of him.  This is enough evidence to make them suspect.  And that's enough.

He is telling you they are destroy and control, but you have no proof they are. 

you have...

1. they do what he said they would do.
2. You don´t trust the Catalyst...you trust the crucible and it´s designers.
3. You don´t have a better understanding how the crucible can be activated. so ether you assume that he told you the truth or you do nothing.
 

Again, provide proof other than what the kid says that shows the choices were not made by the kid. 

I did repeatedly. just once again in the post above this. you just keep ignoring what i wrote.

My proof is there is no one other than the kid that knows what the choices will do or that knows they exist.  They are in his house, a place that is a part of him.  This is enough evidence to make them suspect.  And that's enough. 

This does not prove anything. It makes total sense that he would know what the crucible changed.
These are no evidence, they are baseless accusations.

Modifié par maaaze, 28 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[3DandBeyond]

maaaze wrote...


He is telling you they are destroy and control, but you have no proof they are. 

you have...

1. they do what he said they would do.
2. You don´t trust the Catalyst...you trust the crucible and it´s designers.
3. You don´t have a better understanding how the crucible can be activated. so ether you assume that he told you the truth or you do nothing.
 

Again, provide proof other than what the kid says that shows the choices were not made by the kid. 

I did repeatedly. just once again in the post above this. you just keep ignoring what i wrote.

My proof is there is no one other than the kid that knows what the choices will do or that knows they exist.  They are in his house, a place that is a part of him.  This is enough evidence to make them suspect.  And that's enough. 

This does not prove anything. It makes total sense that he would know what the crucible changed.
These are no evidence, they are baseless accusations.

• That is meta-gaming.  Shepard has no proof they will do what they say they will do.  Besides meta-gaming and what the kid says, prove they do what the kid says they will do---prove in the game.
• Who designed the crucible?  Who is Shepard supposed to trust?  No one as yet has stepped forward to say they designed it so Shepard has to trust an imaginary person.
• For Shepard to assume the kid is being truthful is to risk a lot with no proof and that is the point.

This wasn't about making these choices or refusing to make one.  It was about where the choices originate from.
You have no idea who originally designed the crucible.

If the kid designed it, then it is also a tool of the reapers because he is the combined intelligence of the reapers and the AI created before he turned his creators into a reaper.
If the reapers designed it, then it is also a tool of the kid's because he is the combined intelligence of the reapers and that same AI.
If his creators designed it as some sort of failsafe before becoming a reaper then it would not do anything that involves reapers because reapers did not exist until the kid turned his creators into one.  

The kid has prior knowledge of the crucible and it's a power source (if you believe him, you must believe that).  Since no one else ever got this far before how would anyone else have known to make a device to change a being (the catalyst) that they know nothing about?  The kid never showed himself to anyone before.  The Protheans knew there was a catalyst but didn't know what it was and they had also added to the crucible to make it more complete. 

The person or persons that originally designed the crucible had to have some idea what the catalyst was in order to create the crucible which would change the catalyst.  At the very least they would have to have known it was a program and have created a program to change it.  However, people of Shepard's cycle are the first to actually get so far and to really know what the catalyst is.  So did people this cycle create a program to change an AI they didn't even know anything about or did someone else create a program in the crucible to change an AI they didn't know anything about?

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

The only beings that know or have known what the catalyst is are the catalyst and reapers, his creators, and Shepard.  Shepard didn't create a catalyst altering program formed when the crucible meets the citadel.  As I said the kid's creators didn't make it because it creates choices that target reapers-they would have had to make it before reapers existed so wouldn't create a program that targets reapers.  If they created it after becoming a reaper then the kid knew about it and wanted it created-he controls the reapers, not vice versa.
If the kid's programming is merely altered to create more choices, he still created the choices.

All choices if valid do fulfill his purpose.  None of them just do so permanently.  But this is the basic flaw in his programming anyway and why he changed and made reapers in the first place.  He can never find a permanent solution.

What appears to have happened (conjecture) is he was programmed with a very ambiguous goal-to find a balance between organics and synthetics so that conflict would be avoided.  His creators did not make his instructions specific enough.  His programming tried to fill in the blanks.  His creators may have wanted him to fix a current problem-a one time thing, but they did not specify that.  What they may have meant was keep present day synthetics from killing organics.  What they may have "told" the kid to do was keep synthetics from killing organics by finding balance.  What the kid's programming may have understood that to mean was synthetics are always killing organics-keep that from happening by finding balance at all costs.  This made him poorly suited to his purpose because he had no gray area thinking-everything was yes or no, on or off, 1 or 0.  So the only way to really provide balance was to destroy those that created the things that would always put things out of balance.  His programming told him that synthetics and organics would always be out of balance because it told him he needed to put them into balance.

This is like telling someone they need to eat less food.  They will understand that to mean they are gaining weight or looking fat.

The kid was told he need to put synthetics and organics into balance and his programming, absent some specific parameters took that to mean ALWAYS, and it further understood that they were out of balance ALWAYS.  He created the reapers to be the solution to this and they worked but only cyclically-so temporarily.  The choices are like a split in his programming-they are also temporary solutions that may have evolved from his continued attempt to adapt his programming.  He isn't a very smart AI, with no real ability to adapt and so the reapers also serve to help him gain the perspective of other intelligences to help find a permanent solution.  Synthesis may be what he most thinks will work with these solutions but even it is temporary.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 juillet 2012 - 03:02 .

[Wayning_Star]

wow, looks like the citadel council has invaded the forum on synthesis again. Shepard says "Not again" and askes "Why now?!?", they've always questioned his decisions, found fault in his evidence, slowed his progress. Must be a cycle in the MEU... Shepard says: Hell with it, I'm jumping into that weird beam and let the chips fall where they may. I sure ain't getting anything else accomplished listening to the council rail on with minute.

Humans stumble across Edi, Quarians walk over the geth.. ah, decisions decisions.. and plenty of time, no hurry, heck Shep and the catalyst are just kicking back watching fire works'n eating virtual hot dogs'n stuff..no pressure at all..it's almost like playing a video game, and Nothing like quality time with the Kid you know.. gonna have so say something to it about lying though..bad coming of age habit, better to nip that in the bud..yeah... right.. now, where was I?

[Wayning_Star]

wow, looks like the citadel council has invaded the forum on synthesis again. Shepard says "Not again" and askes "Why now?!?", they've always questioned his decisions, found fault in his evidence, slowed his progress. Must be a cycle in the MEU... Shepard says: Hell with it, I'm jumping into that weird beam and let the chips fall where they may. I sure ain't getting anything else accomplished listening to the council rail on with minute.

Humans stumble across Edi, Quarians walk over the geth.. ah, decisions decisions.. and plenty of time, no hurry, heck Shep and the catalyst are just kicking back watching fire works'n eating virtual hot dogs'n stuff..no pressure at all..it's almost like playing a video game, and Nothing like quality time with the Kid you know.. gonna have so say something to it about lying though..bad coming of age habit, better to nip that in the bud..yeah... right.. now, where was I?

[Mazebook]

@3Dandbeyond

first I want to thank you for writing such a long response

That is meta-gaming. Shepard has no proof they will do what they say they will do. Besides meta-gaming and what the kid says, prove they do what the kid says they will do---prove in the game.
Who designed the crucible? Who is Shepard supposed to trust? No one as yet has stepped forward to say they designed it so Shepard has to trust an imaginary person.
For Shepard to assume the kid is being truthful is to risk a lot with no proof and that is the point.

The reasons to trust him are the same to distrust him. Shaperds knows that the only chance of winning is the crucible. The docking of the crucible has brought him directly to the crucible.
The last thing he heard was that the Curcible is not firing. The future of this cycles lays on his shoulders. He knows he has to take action.

He knows that many cycles apposed the reapers. He knows that many cycles worked on the designs. He trust liara and the prothean v.i. to tell the truth to the best of their knowlege.
He trusts the people who worked on it.

Now comes the head of the enemy and he for the first time explains their motives. He explains that he is not interested in conflict. that he is simply doing what he is was created to do.
Asked why he is telling him all this...he says that the crucible changed him. That things are now different.

He has to make a decision. ether take the Catalyst on his word with the slight chance of being doomed or do nothing with the certainty of being doomed. The Kid lying makes no sense because he would gain nothing other than putting doubt into Shaperds mind how to activate the crucible.
Which brings him nothing because shaperd has no idea how to activate it in the first place.

This wasn't about making these choices or refusing to make one. It was about where the choices originate from. You have no idea who originally designed the crucible.

You know that there were many designs...many civilization worked on it including your own. from the beginning of ME 3 you started to trust the crucible. and now in the last second you get doubts?
from shepards perspective that makes no sense.

If the kid designed it, then it is also a tool of the reapers because he is the combined intelligence of the reapers and the AI created before he turned his creators into a reaper.
If the reapers designed it, then it is also a tool of the kid's because he is the combined intelligence of the reapers and that same AI.
If his creators designed it as some sort of failsafe before becoming a reaper then it would not do anything that involves reapers because reapers did not exist until the kid turned his creators into one.

sorry these arguments make no sense.
why would the kid design the crucible? to achieve what exactly? as a diversion?
well if that is the case and the crucible does nothing...why even talk with shepard?

No the crucible was designed by the cycles that opposed the reapers...ti find a weakness...to end the cycle. it is the only explanation that makes sense. and it is the only explanation that is represented in game.

The kid has prior knowledge of the crucible and it's a power source (if you believe him, you must believe that). Since no one else ever got this far before how would anyone else have known to make a device to change a being (the catalyst) that they know nothing about? The kid never showed himself to anyone before. The Protheans knew there was a catalyst but didn't know what it was and they had also added to the crucible to make it more complete.

for some reason you believe the Catalyst A.I. is needed to activate the crucible. But it is citadel that is needed. The catalyst A.I. has no power. He needs the keepers and the reapers to fulfill his need to execute his solution. He never showed he had control over the citadel.

Yes he says that the citadel is part of him. But that does not mean he has control over it or that he is even interested in taking control.

There is enough evidence that this is the case.
1. If the catalyst had control over the citadel, he would have prevented shepard from opening the arms.
2. There would be no need for the keepers and soverign.

so we can say he has no control over the citadel...and thus is not needed to activate the crucible...

what was needed was the citadel...and the citadel is known...some cycles knew more of the citadel than others.

The person or persons that originally designed the crucible had to have some idea what the catalyst was in order to create the crucible which would change the catalyst. At the very least they would have to have known it was a program and have created a program to change it. However, people of Shepard's cycle are the first to actually get so far and to really know what the catalyst is. So did people this cycle create a program to change an AI they didn't even know anything about or did someone else create a program in the crucible to change an AI they didn't know anything about?

see above...you do not need to know about the catalyst A.I....you only need some understanding of the citadel.

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

The only beings that know or have known what the catalyst is are the catalyst and reapers, his creators, and Shepard. Shepard didn't create a catalyst altering program formed when the crucible meets the citadel. As I said the kid's creators didn't make it because it creates choices that target reapers- they would have had to make it before reapers existed so wouldn't create a program that targets reapers.

it does not target reapers , it targets all synthetics. The failsave would only work on the citadel.
control rewrites the catalyst in shaperds image...and sends the rewrite code to all synthetics who had the catalyst code installed.

If they created it after becoming a reaper then the kid knew about it and wanted it created-he controls the reapers, not vice versa.
If the kid's programming is merely altered to create more choices, he still created the choices.

like i said the mechanisms had a different purpose originally and are repurposed through the crucibles design.

All choices if valid do fulfill his purpose. None of them just do so permanently. But this is the basic flaw in his programming anyway and why he changed and made reapers in the first place. He can never find a permanent solution.

but he had a permanent solution...the reapers...he would not settle for a solution that was less permanent...if he had made these choices...why bother with destroy and control? why not leave them out and present synthesis as the only possible solution.

it makes no sense.

What appears to have happened (conjecture) is he was programmed with a very ambiguous goal-to find a balance between organics and synthetics so that conflict would be avoided. His creators did not make his instructions specific enough. His programming tried to fill in the blanks. His creators may have wanted him to fix a current problem-a one time thing, but they did not specify that. What they may have meant was keep present day synthetics from killing organics. What they may have "told" the kid to do was keep synthetics from killing organics by finding balance. What the kid's programming may have understood that to mean was synthetics are always killing organics-keep that from happening by finding balance at all costs. This made him poorly suited to his purpose because he had no gray area thinking-everything was yes or no, on or off, 1 or 0. So the only way to really provide balance was to destroy those that created the things that would always put things out of balance. His programming told him that synthetics and organics would always be out of balance because it told him he needed to put them into balance.

This is like telling someone they need to eat less food. They will understand that to mean they are gaining weight or looking fat.

The kid was told he need to put synthetics and organics into balance and his programming, absent some specific parameters took that to mean ALWAYS, and it further understood that they were out of balance ALWAYS. He created the reapers to be the solution to this and they worked but only cyclically-so temporarily.
The choices are like a split in his programming-they are also temporary solutions that may have evolved from his continued attempt to adapt his programming. He isn't a very smart AI, with no real ability to adapt and so the reapers also serve to help him gain the perspective of other intelligences to help find a permanent solution. Synthesis may be what he most thinks will work with these solutions but even it is temporary.

I agree with most of this. Only it contradicts what you said earlier. Why would he design the crucible if it gave the organics the chance to eradicate his solution which has worked perfectly so far?

On the off chance it would make synthesis possible? that is quite a gamble. especially if he did not even know that synthesis was possible.

Modifié par maaaze, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[Mazebook]

Updated the OP with a nice Picture.

can be seen also here.

Modifié par maaaze, 15 août 2012 - 01:06 .

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 08:23 .

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Modifié par BigBadMammogram, 15 août 2012 - 08:34 .

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

I dont care about who controls it, and I dont care about where it comes from. The argument (since I need to be very clear about this, or you'll miss the point... again) that I am making is against maaaze's argument of changing the citadel changes the catalyst. It's invalid, because it doesnt matter if the starbrat is a part of the citadel or not. You still have to know about it before you can change it. So simply stating that the citadel is the only thing that needs to be modified is still bunk.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

I dont care about who controls it, and I dont care about where it comes from. The argument (since I need to be very clear about this, or you'll miss the point... again) that I am making is against maaaze's argument of changing the citadel changes the catalyst. It's invalid, because it doesnt matter if the starbrat is a part of the citadel or not. You still have to know about it before you can change it. So simply stating that the citadel is the only thing that needs to be modified is still bunk.

Then this is just a quetion of the source of the crucible. That can be easilly be awnsered in 8/28..
If anything, the anwser would obviously bethat the catalysts creators started the design of the crucible.

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

I dont care about who controls it, and I dont care about where it comes from. The argument (since I need to be very clear about this, or you'll miss the point... again) that I am making is against maaaze's argument of changing the citadel changes the catalyst. It's invalid, because it doesnt matter if the starbrat is a part of the citadel or not. You still have to know about it before you can change it. So simply stating that the citadel is the only thing that needs to be modified is still bunk.

Then this is just a quetion of the source of the crucible. That can be easilly be awnsered in 8/28..
If anything, the anwser would obviously bethat the catalysts creators started the design of the crucible.

Source of the crucible doesnt matter. HOW they managed to get enough information to modify the starbrat is the question. How they managed to pass all that information down without any of it becoming corrupted would also be a great question. And why did they.... Screw it. There's more than a few 'minor details' that bioware didnt make an explanation for.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

I dont care about who controls it, and I dont care about where it comes from. The argument (since I need to be very clear about this, or you'll miss the point... again) that I am making is against maaaze's argument of changing the citadel changes the catalyst. It's invalid, because it doesnt matter if the starbrat is a part of the citadel or not. You still have to know about it before you can change it. So simply stating that the citadel is the only thing that needs to be modified is still bunk.

Then this is just a quetion of the source of the crucible. That can be easilly be awnsered in 8/28..
If anything, the anwser would obviously bethat the catalysts creators started the design of the crucible.

Source of the crucible doesnt matter. HOW they managed to get enough information to modify the starbrat is the question. How they managed to pass all that information down without any of it becoming corrupted would also be a great question. And why did they.... Screw it. There's more than a few 'minor details' that bioware didnt make an explanation for.

If the socre is the creator of the catalyst then it's clear how they got it. Also, it's clear how it was past down. The same way we got it. Placing an object in a vaccumed state prevents i form not being destoryed....

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

If you believe the kid:
Whoever created the crucible and the citadel and the choices had to be aware of what the catalyst was in order to create something that will change him.

no...the change came from changing the citadel...which is a part of the catalyst. so the catalyst was changed through the citadel which was changed by the crucible

You cant just move the problem around and expect it to magically fix itself. If they are one and the same, then changing a part of the citadel that no one knows about would be just as impossible as changing the catalyst.

The citadel and the catalystis not one in the same. The citadel is part of the catalyst like the reapers are part of the catalyst...Like a single geth unit is part of Legion. Like an organ is part of your body.

Um, thank you for restating what I just said... Pay attention to the 'changing a part of the citadel' part of my post.

Maaaze is trying to say they are one and the same, which is why you only need to know about the citadel in order to change the catalyst(correct me if I'm wrong). He's trying to move the problem to make it make sense, because previous cycles would have knowlege of the citadel. That doesnt fix the problem. Previous cycles may know how to change the citadel, but they still dont know a damn thing about the catalyst. And you can't change a part of something without knowing at least something about that part.

And before you say "You dont know what previous cycles knew", everything in the game hints that we are the first cycle to stop the initial invasion, and the first cycle to know anything about the reapers before they showed up.

Changing means it's given more options. That does not means it controls the options...That is what your not getting.
The past cycles design destroy and control.Synthesis comes from the catalyst.

I dont care about who controls it, and I dont care about where it comes from. The argument (since I need to be very clear about this, or you'll miss the point... again) that I am making is against maaaze's argument of changing the citadel changes the catalyst. It's invalid, because it doesnt matter if the starbrat is a part of the citadel or not. You still have to know about it before you can change it. So simply stating that the citadel is the only thing that needs to be modified is still bunk.

Then this is just a quetion of the source of the crucible. That can be easilly be awnsered in 8/28..
If anything, the anwser would obviously bethat the catalysts creators started the design of the crucible.

Source of the crucible doesnt matter. HOW they managed to get enough information to modify the starbrat is the question. How they managed to pass all that information down without any of it becoming corrupted would also be a great question. And why did they.... Screw it. There's more than a few 'minor details' that bioware didnt make an explanation for.

If the socre is the creator of the catalyst then it's clear how they got it. Also, it's clear how it was past down. The same way we got it. Placing an object in a vaccumed state prevents i form not being destoryed....

Yeah... except for the whole 'other races modified it without knowing what the hell it does' bit. That would easily corrupt the data, especially over thousands of cycles. Then there's the language barriers (the reason we didnt understand the protheans warning from the first beacon). Language barriers caused corruption in a lot of ancient books, so the creators would have to protect against that. There had to be at least ONE cycle that figured wasting time on building something that might  do something good was a waste of time, so they probably didnt waste a lot of time trying to preserve it either. So again, just a few 'minor details' that need to be answered.

Or I could just assume its bad writing, and then it all makes sense.