303 réponses à ce sujet

[v TricKy v]

maaaze wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Shepard could have done nothing. It was the Catalyst who got you up there in the first place. 

NO!!!...it is the crucible who get´s you up in the first place. There is no reason to believe that the catalyst pulls you up. 

His dialoge would make no sense if he were the one who pulls you up.

IT is the crucibles doing.

argument 1 : it makes sense that the designers would include a way to get to the crucible in case the arms a closed. And you would put this mechanism in place from where you open the arms of the citadel.

argument 2: the citadel being part of the catalyst does not imply he has control over it. As much you don´t have control over your heartbeat.

argument 3: the following to statements imply that he did not lift Shaperd up.

"you being here, the first organic ever, proves my solution won´t work anymore" this statement makes no sense if the catalyst himself brought him there. Here meaning a place to activate the crucible.

In the low ems ending : "Why are you here ?" the catalyst himself is surprised that Shaperd did make it to the crucible...it makes no sense for him to ask him that question if he himself brought him there. Surly he knows what Shaperd intends to do. 

So how does the giant battery activate the elevator which gets you there? It just an energy source nothing more. Even the Catalyst says that himself. So the only reason you get up there is because the Catalyst brings you there. The Citadel is a part of him after all. He also says that himself.

no it is not only a battery...it was designed to do a specific thing...to destroy the reapers with  the help of the mass relays and citadel...which required a lot of energy.

it makes sense that the designers thought about a way...that you can get to the crucible after you open the arms of the Citadel...otherwise the crucible would be pointless.

So if it was specifically desinged to destroy the reapers than why do we have to shoot a tube for it? Docking the Crucible should be enough if it was designed for it.
The Crucible is also docked a long time before you show up. So unless the Crucible has some kind of surveillance so that it knows that your are in position it makes no sense to activate the elevator.
Another funny thing is that the creators seem to have the ability to see the future. Because there is no way they could have known which elevator to activate because that area was inaccessible for everyone.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

The crucible is just a power source, though. It doesn't have the ability, or even the opportunity, to create the Destroy and Control options, since it interacts with the citadel in only two ways:
a) through the synthesis beam.
the four "arms" the crucible uses to dock.
It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time.

For the Catalyst to have designed the destroy option makes sense if we consider it as some sort of self-destruct mechanism, often employed in fiction. The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. The leaked Leviathan of Dis information suggests that the reapers can, in fact, rebel, and if they did so in large numbers they could simply exterminate all organic life on their own (the dialogue with Sovereign suggests that they feel nothing but contempt towards organic life). The Catalyst must have a way to stop them if something like this were to happen, even at the expense of himself.

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .

[D24O]

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

[Jadebaby]

D24O wrote...

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

That's actually not a bad question.

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

1.The whole point of building the crucible in the first place?

Why would you design the crucible if it´s fuctions are not to end the cycle.

ether by destroying the reapers...or by controlling them.

2. The Crucible does not solve what the Catalyst wants to be solved...other than synthesis...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

[Jadebaby]

maaaze wrote...

D24O wrote...

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

1.The whole point of building the crucible in the first place?

Why would you design the crucible if it´s fuctions are not to end the cycle.

ether by destroying the reapers...or by controlling them.

2. The Crucible does not solve what the Catalyst wants to be solved...other than synthesis...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

I think it's easy to say that Destroy is the crucible's orginal function. Control and synthesis' introductions are as ambiguous as everything else in the endings.

[AresKeith]

maaaze wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Previous cycles also had no access to the citadel after the reapers invaded, and they had no idea the reapers were about to invade. So how did they gather information about something they didnt even know to look for from a place they couldnt get to?

the harvisting process took hundreds of years. information could get gathered. if you count in that the information is based on thousands of cycles.

NOBODY knew about that room where the Starbrat is, so they can't know about the options

How do you know nobody knew???

because of the "first organic ever" line? That was about the ability to use the crucible and not the room...

the room is not important. it never was...it is just the point where the crucible docks...and existing equitment are adepted to serve the crucible.

the room is not important? how is a room where you make three stupid choices not important? and its also the fact that the Brat fails to tell you who first came up with the plan, that seems alittle fishy

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

Thats the entire problem with the ending. It doesn't make any sense, and we are in no way led to believe that these choices came from the crucible. Hell, if the choices did come from the crucible, it would still make no sense. How the hell would previous cycles reprogram the most advanced AI this galaxy has ever seen without knowing anything about it?

[Mazebook]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The crucible is just a power source, though. It doesn't have the ability, or even the opportunity, to create the Destroy and Control options, since it interacts with the citadel in only two ways:
a) through the synthesis beam.
the four "arms" the crucible uses to dock.
It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time.

For the Catalyst to have designed the destroy option makes sense if we consider it as some sort of self-destruct mechanism, often employed in fiction. The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. The leaked Leviathan of Dis information suggests that the reapers can, in fact, rebel, and if they did so in large numbers they could simply exterminate all organic life on their own (the dialogue with Sovereign suggests that they feel nothing but contempt towards organic life). The Catalyst must have a way to stop them if something like this were to happen, even at the expense of himself.

It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time. 

there is nothing to create...the crucible is already build...in combination with the citadel it is ready to do what it was designed to do.

it repurpose the existing (tube/ energy device) mechanism to do what the crucible was built for.

The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. 

This is a byproduct of his goal.
Catalyst goal is to find a perment solution to ending choas and the  keep balance between organics and synthetics. he has no preferance ether way.

[Mazebook]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

Thats the entire problem with the ending. It doesn't make any sense, and we are in no way led to believe that these choices came from the crucible. Hell, if the choices did come from the crucible, it would still make no sense. How the hell would previous cycles reprogram the most advanced AI this galaxy has ever seen without knowing anything about it?

they don´t...they reprogram what they know...the citadel...the citadel is a part of him.

If the citadel is changed (docking the crucible) he is changed.

[CronoDragoon]

maaaze wrote...

D24O wrote...

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

1.The whole point of building the crucible in the first place?

Why would you design the crucible if it´s fuctions are not to end the cycle.

ether by destroying the reapers...or by controlling them.

2. The Crucible does not solve what the Catalyst wants to be solved...other than synthesis...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

The Crucible is "little more than an energy source." Containing the programming that determines how its energy will be dispersed would not make sense given that description.

And they built the Crucible because it's a device capable of discharging energy in mass amounts. Notice how Liara hesitates to even call it a weapon to start? It creates and dispenses energy; that's all the plans showed.

There is more evidence to suggest that the Catalyst created the options than the Crucible. Destroy and Control are not what he recommends, but they do, in fact, follow his prime directive, which to the best of our knowledge is something like "prevent war between organics and synthetics" or "prevent synthetics from annihilating organics." Destroy, Control, and Synthesis all accomplish his prime directive, so he offers them all.

[Mazebook]

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Previous cycles also had no access to the citadel after the reapers invaded, and they had no idea the reapers were about to invade. So how did they gather information about something they didnt even know to look for from a place they couldnt get to?

the harvisting process took hundreds of years. information could get gathered. if you count in that the information is based on thousands of cycles.

NOBODY knew about that room where the Starbrat is, so they can't know about the options

How do you know nobody knew???

because of the "first organic ever" line? That was about the ability to use the crucible and not the room...

the room is not important. it never was...it is just the point where the crucible docks...and existing equitment are adepted to serve the crucible.

the room is not important? how is a room where you make three stupid choices not important? and its also the fact that the Brat fails to tell you who first came up with the plan, that seems alittle fishy

it could have been somewhere else...the room is not important by itself...it is only important because it is the place where the crucible docks.

Why is it important who came up with the crucible?...the design has changed so much...gone through countless hands. it does not matter...at first it was not even intendet to use the citadel.

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

they don´t...they reprogram what they know...the citadel...the citadel is a part of him.

If the citadel is changed (docking the crucible) he is changed.

What? You are pulling off some serious mental gymnastics in order to make this ending make sense to you. You cant just move the problem around to make it make sense. If he is a part of the citadel, then it will still be just as difficult to reprogram the citadel as it would be to reprogram him. 

 And on top of that, if reprogramming the citadel can change him because its a part of him, then why doesn't he respond to soveriegns signal?

[AresKeith]

maaaze wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Previous cycles also had no access to the citadel after the reapers invaded, and they had no idea the reapers were about to invade. So how did they gather information about something they didnt even know to look for from a place they couldnt get to?

the harvisting process took hundreds of years. information could get gathered. if you count in that the information is based on thousands of cycles.

NOBODY knew about that room where the Starbrat is, so they can't know about the options

How do you know nobody knew???

because of the "first organic ever" line? That was about the ability to use the crucible and not the room...

the room is not important. it never was...it is just the point where the crucible docks...and existing equitment are adepted to serve the crucible.

the room is not important? how is a room where you make three stupid choices not important? and its also the fact that the Brat fails to tell you who first came up with the plan, that seems alittle fishy

it could have been somewhere else...the room is not important by itself...it is only important because it is the place where the crucible docks.

Why is it important who came up with the crucible?...the design has changed so much...gone through countless hands. it does not matter...at first it was not even intendet to use the citadel.

because as of now each Crucible choices carries out what the Starbrat wants

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Crucible is "little more than an energy source." Containing the programming that determines how its energy will be dispersed would not make sense given that description.

And they built the Crucible because it's a device capable of discharging energy in mass amounts. Notice how Liara hesitates to even call it a weapon to start? It creates and dispenses energy; that's all the plans showed.

There is more evidence to suggest that the Catalyst created the options than the Crucible. Destroy and Control are not what he recommends, but they do, in fact, follow his prime directive, which to the best of our knowledge is something like "prevent war between organics and synthetics" or "prevent synthetics from annihilating organics." Destroy, Control, and Synthesis all accomplish his prime directive, so he offers them all.

This is what I was arguing with you last night, all the choices are facets of the reaper solution, and the Crucible, according to the text is a powerful battery that didn't work unless it was hooked up to the Citadel. The catalyst himself states that he's been changed. The options he had at his disposal will now work because he has the resources to do so, as well as a catalyst, Shepard.

Modifié par D24O, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:35 .

[Applepie_Svk]

v TricKy v wrote...

So if it was specifically desinged to destroy the reapers than why do we have to shoot a tube for it? Docking the Crucible should be enough if it was designed for it.
The Crucible is also docked a long time before you show up. So unless the Crucible has some kind of surveillance so that it knows that your are in position it makes no sense to activate the elevator.
Another funny thing is that the creators seem to have the ability to see the future. Because there is no way they could have known which elevator to activate because that area was inaccessible for everyone.

Those Creators, funny bunch of people, don´t you think ? I wish had too such a stuff ...

[Chaotic-Fusion]

maaaze wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The crucible is just a power source, though. It doesn't have the ability, or even the opportunity, to create the Destroy and Control options, since it interacts with the citadel in only two ways:
a) through the synthesis beam.
the four "arms" the crucible uses to dock.
It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time.

For the Catalyst to have designed the destroy option makes sense if we consider it as some sort of self-destruct mechanism, often employed in fiction. The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. The leaked Leviathan of Dis information suggests that the reapers can, in fact, rebel, and if they did so in large numbers they could simply exterminate all organic life on their own (the dialogue with Sovereign suggests that they feel nothing but contempt towards organic life). The Catalyst must have a way to stop them if something like this were to happen, even at the expense of himself.

It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time. 

there is nothing to create...the crucible is already build...in combination with the citadel it is ready to do what it was designed to do.

it repurpose the existing (tube/ energy device) mechanism to do what the crucible was built for.

The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. 

This is a byproduct of his goal.
Catalyst goal is to find a perment solution to ending choas and the  keep balance between organics and synthetics. he has no preferance ether way.

The catalyst tells us it is just a power source, its function is to supply some form form of energy, how can it create anything? A power supply doesn't accept any input and doesn't provide any output.
The crucible is alredy bult, yes, but according to you the decision room isn't, at least not completely. My point was that to repurpose it it needed time, time the game shows us it didn't have.

"Without our intervention synthetics will destroy all organics"
If the reapers started to kill all organic life, rebelling like the Leviathan of Dis, they would be going against the Catalyst's directive. He needed a fail-safe to ensure that would not happen.

[Mazebook]

CronoDragoon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

D24O wrote...

I just want to ask, what is it that makes you think the choices come from the crucible?

1.The whole point of building the crucible in the first place?

Why would you design the crucible if it´s fuctions are not to end the cycle.

ether by destroying the reapers...or by controlling them.

2. The Crucible does not solve what the Catalyst wants to be solved...other than synthesis...so it makes no sense that these choices would come from him.

The Crucible is "little more than an energy source." Containing the programming that determines how its energy will be dispersed would not make sense given that description.

And they built the Crucible because it's a device capable of discharging energy in mass amounts. Notice how Liara hesitates to even call it a weapon to start? It creates and dispenses energy; that's all the plans showed.

There is more evidence to suggest that the Catalyst created the options than the Crucible. Destroy and Control are not what he recommends, but they do, in fact, follow his prime directive, which to the best of our knowledge is something like "prevent war between organics and synthetics" or "prevent synthetics from annihilating organics." Destroy, Control, and Synthesis all accomplish his prime directive, so he offers them all.

But destroy is not permament... it does not solve anything!...it does not follow his prime directive...he does not even like the idea...in the low ems ending it is the only choice...why would he create this only choice that is eradicating his existance and all his efforts.

why?

it only makes sense that the catalyst had no say in what the crucible does.

[Cyberfrog81]

maaaze wrote...

they don´t...they reprogram what they know...the citadel...the citadel is a part of him.

If the citadel is changed (docking the crucible) he is changed.

Still buying into that nonsense? The "Catalyst" is nothing to be awed by, it's just a Reaper. BioWare could've just shown us another big honkin' Reaper hologram, but they chose the damn child instead.

[RiouHotaru]

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

it only makes sense that the catalyst had no say in what the crucible does.

Or it just simply makes no sense.

Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually right.

[GreyLycanTrope]

So the Crucible designers added a feature that somehow transcends known (for mass effect and reality) science and somehow transformers every organic in the galaxy into a hybrids, fixes their defects, like the genophage, and is also complex enough to be able to reprogram every know type of synthetic into understanding organics. I don't think so.

[Mazebook]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The crucible is just a power source, though. It doesn't have the ability, or even the opportunity, to create the Destroy and Control options, since it interacts with the citadel in only two ways:
a) through the synthesis beam.
the four "arms" the crucible uses to dock.
It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time.

For the Catalyst to have designed the destroy option makes sense if we consider it as some sort of self-destruct mechanism, often employed in fiction. The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. The leaked Leviathan of Dis information suggests that the reapers can, in fact, rebel, and if they did so in large numbers they could simply exterminate all organic life on their own (the dialogue with Sovereign suggests that they feel nothing but contempt towards organic life). The Catalyst must have a way to stop them if something like this were to happen, even at the expense of himself.

It interacts with the decision room only through the beam, plus by the time Shepard arrives to the decision room, the crucible had been docked for only a few seconds, it doesn't have the time to create those option, ergo the tubes and the control device where there the whole time. 

there is nothing to create...the crucible is already build...in combination with the citadel it is ready to do what it was designed to do.

it repurpose the existing (tube/ energy device) mechanism to do what the crucible was built for.

The Catalyst's goal is the preservation of organics. 

This is a byproduct of his goal.
Catalyst goal is to find a perment solution to ending choas and the  keep balance between organics and synthetics. he has no preferance ether way.

The catalyst tells us it is just a power source, its function is to supply some form form of energy, how can it create anything? A power supply doesn't accept any input and doesn't provide any output.
The crucible is alredy bult, yes, but according to you the decision room isn't, at least not completely. My point was that to repurpose it it needed time, time the game shows us it didn't have.

"Without our intervention synthetics will destroy all organics"
If the reapers started to kill all organic life, rebelling like the Leviathan of Dis, they would be going against the Catalyst's directive. He needed a fail-safe to ensure that would not happen.

The crucible is alredy bult, yes, but according to you the decision room isn't, at least not completely. My point was that to repurpose it it needed time, time the game shows us it didn't have. 

It is more than a power source...it is mostly a power source but also more than that.
It creates new possibilitys. by adapting and using the citadel for what it was designed for.
why do you think it needs time?...i don´t understand... it was built with the citadel in mind.

[CronoDragoon]

maaaze wrote...

But destroy is not permament... it does not solve anything!...it does not follow his prime directive...he does not even like the idea...in the low ems ending it is the only choice...why would he create this only choice that is eradicating his existance and all his efforts.

why?

it only makes sense that the catalyst had no say in what the crucible does.

It's the only ending in low EMS because Destroy is the easiest way for the Crucible to disperse its energy. The more "intact" your Crucible is, the more options you get.

Also, your first two statements are not the same thing. It IS a solution, but it is not a permanent solution. 

He doesn't like the idea, but that's like Windows presenting you with 3 fixes and putting (Recommended) next to one.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

I meant that by the time Shepard arrives in the decision room the crucible had barely docked. It isn't just some code the crucible had to upload to an existing structure, even if the tubes had already been there it would have needed to physically alter their structure, and for that it needed:
a) some form of way to physically interact with the room, as it stands it only had the beam
time