303 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Greylycantrope wrote...

So the Crucible designers added a feature that somehow transcends known (for mass effect and reality) science and somehow transformers every organic in the galaxy into a hybrids, fixes their defects, like the genophage, and is also complex enough to be able to reprogram every know type of synthetic into understanding organics. I don't think so.

You are not alone, I think that this forum came throught that same circle atleast dozen times, but there is certain groups which wish to return to same nonsense again - once is not enough... 
 
Just a presence of Catalyst disproving relevance of previous two games and here we go again... Leave my CATALYST ALONE !

...It´s not thing you can comperhend...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:50 .

[v TricKy v]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

The thing is every other neutral or friendly character could have worked in that scene but right now it makes no sense because we are talking with the enemy leader. We are negotiating and arguing with an ancient mass murder. I dont know how Bioware failed to see that this cant work.

[Mazebook]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I meant that by the time Shepard arrives in the decision room the crucible had barely docked. It isn't just some code the crucible had to upload to an existing structure, even if the tubes had already been there it would have needed to physically alter their structure, and for that it needed:
a) some form of way to physically interact with the room, as it stands it only had the beam
time

it is efficient and adaptive. which means it does change things quickly.
the beam was appearently enough interaction to cause these changes.

I don´t understand why you need more of an explonation.

[Mazebook]

v TricKy v wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

The thing is every other neutral or friendly character could have worked in that scene but right now it makes no sense because we are talking with the enemy leader. We are negotiating and arguing with an ancient mass murder. I dont know how Bioware failed to see that this cant work.

You are not negotiating...you hold all the cards in your hands...you dictate how your enemy (the catalyst) is destroyed

[D24O]

maaaze wrote...

The crucible is alredy bult, yes, but according to you the decision room isn't, at least not completely. My point was that to repurpose it it needed time, time the game shows us it didn't have. 

It is more than a power source...it is mostly a power source but also more than that.
It creates new possibilitys. by adapting and using the citadel for what it was designed for.
why do you think it needs time?...i don´t understand... it was built with the citadel in mind.

Bolded. The Citadel is part of the catalyst, and is part of the reaper solution. The Crucible comes along and brings enough power to exploit it to a fuller potentiel, depending on how well the Crucible is constructed.

[BigBadMammogram]

Maaaze, its time to face the facts.

I know you love the mass effect series. I know that before the game came out, you wanted it to be one of the greatest games of all time. I did too. Hell, most of the people here thought there was no way it could be anything less than epic.

But Bioware destroyed it. Horribly.

The thing is, I'm easy to please. I liked the original ending to Fallout 3. I loved the ending to Lost. Hell, I even liked the ending of Fable 3(not much, but it wasnt bad).

With that said, this is the worst ending I have ever seen.

We all know you want this game to be amazing. But its time to give that up, and do the same thing that the rest of us have done. And that is to realize that this game is just bad.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

maaaze wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I meant that by the time Shepard arrives in the decision room the crucible had barely docked. It isn't just some code the crucible had to upload to an existing structure, even if the tubes had already been there it would have needed to physically alter their structure, and for that it needed:
a) some form of way to physically interact with the room, as it stands it only had the beam
time

it is efficient and adaptive. which means it does change things quickly.
the beam was appearently enough interaction to cause these changes.

I don´t understand why you need more of an explonation.

Before the EC, I mostly accepted that the choices were the crucible's, and that the catalyst just served to explain those choices to us. But then the line about it being just a power source completely undermined that opinion. The ctucible is integral to the main plot, its functions should be clear.

[v TricKy v]

maaaze wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

The thing is every other neutral or friendly character could have worked in that scene but right now it makes no sense because we are talking with the enemy leader. We are negotiating and arguing with an ancient mass murder. I dont know how Bioware failed to see that this cant work.

You are not negotiating...you hold all the cards in your hands...you dictate how your enemy (the catalyst) is destroyed

You dont. He lets you.
If he wanted he could just destroy or turn off the crucible like in the refuse ending. The Catalyst holds all the cards because you can pick the choices he presented you or you get destroyed. You have to obey him.

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...

You are not negotiating...you hold all the cards in your hands...you dictate how your enemy (the catalyst) is destroyed

So that´s why Catalyst with refuse option walk away with hurr durr Oo oO : SO BE IT ? - because Shepard dictate something ? LoL, yes rly !

He was created to bring a peace betwen two sides, sides which are deppending in fact at each other as he said:

Organics looking for perfection thru synthetics - Synthetics look for understanding thru organics,

...and in some messy way they start fight each other...

And synthetics will always rebelled against their creators ... Wait - He rebelled too when he change his own programming and turn own creators into pudding - than to first true Reaper.

So he create great solution of mass-genocide to keep a balance betwen those two sides, hmm delicious...
Oh Yes, my favourite argument is Zha´til - Catalyst said STOP-HAMMER TIME! and Reapers turned them into mindless husks.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:10 .

[Mazebook]

v TricKy v wrote...

maaaze wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

The thing is every other neutral or friendly character could have worked in that scene but right now it makes no sense because we are talking with the enemy leader. We are negotiating and arguing with an ancient mass murder. I dont know how Bioware failed to see that this cant work.

You are not negotiating...you hold all the cards in your hands...you dictate how your enemy (the catalyst) is destroyed

You dont. He lets you.
If he wanted he could just destroy or turn off the crucible like in the refuse ending. The Catalyst holds all the cards because you can pick the choices he presented you or you get destroyed. You have to obey him.

No...if you don´t use your bomb you have built...you loose...if you don´t play your hand and resign from the match how do you expect to win?

You don´t have to obey him in anyway or form. He is not the one who built the crucible. You did. 

[CronoDragoon]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Maaaze, its time to face the facts.

I know you love the mass effect series. I know that before the game came out, you wanted it to be one of the greatest games of all time. I did too. Hell, most of the people here thought there was no way it could be anything less than epic.

But Bioware destroyed it. Horribly.

The thing is, I'm easy to please. I liked the original ending to Fallout 3. I loved the ending to Lost. Hell, I even liked the ending of Fable 3(not much, but it wasnt bad).

With that said, this is the worst ending I have ever seen.

We all know you want this game to be amazing. But its time to give that up, and do the same thing that the rest of us have done. And that is to realize that this game is just bad.

Erm, no. It's a great game with a terrible ending. That doesn't make it a terrible game.

[BigBadMammogram]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Erm, no. It's a great game with a terrible ending. That doesn't make it a terrible game.

Maybe I should rephrase that. The entire story for mass effect 3 is just bad, with a few good sidequests. In a game thats supposed to be focused on story, that makes it bad.

[Necrotron]

If we look at an analogy for a moment, I think it puts the point that the catalyst shouldn't be trusted in perspective:

Hello, I am satan. I was created, but then turned on my purpose to try and destroy all things. Welcome to where I live. Here are choices of how you can defeat me created by the angels. What? You don't trust that I'm being honest? Seriously, I know I usually trick people into making them my indoctrinated servants, but this time, I'm being really truthful.

There is a reason why having the starchild give the choices should make Shepard very leery of anything he says. He is known for indoctrinating and tricking people. Sure, maaaybe the choices were not created by him, but we only have his word to base that on.

As far as Shepard knows, doing what the catalyst says might actually simply making him an indoctrinated slave (ala Saren, Matriach Benezia, the Illusive Man). Actually, that seems like by far the most likely result in following the starchild's suggestion, considering no prior evidence of any sort of peaceful interaction with the Reapers exists. If Shepard had any understanding of how the crucible worked, it might be different, but the catalyst says that "he created the Reapers" and "the Citadel is his home", so the only facts Shepard has to rely on is that every single organic entity that dealt with the Reapers before became indoctrinated and the catalyst has identified himself as a very very dangerous threat which should not be trusted.

Modifié par Bathaius, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:13 .

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Erm, no. It's a great game with a terrible ending. That doesn't make it a terrible game.

This is true, which is a shame.

[Applepie_Svk]

Bathaius wrote...

Hello, I am satan.

THIS ONE SPEAK TRUTH !  I BELIEVE HIM !

[Mazebook]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Maaaze, its time to face the facts.

I know you love the mass effect series. I know that before the game came out, you wanted it to be one of the greatest games of all time. I did too. Hell, most of the people here thought there was no way it could be anything less than epic.

But Bioware destroyed it. Horribly.

The thing is, I'm easy to please. I liked the original ending to Fallout 3. I loved the ending to Lost. Hell, I even liked the ending of Fable 3(not much, but it wasnt bad).

With that said, this is the worst ending I have ever seen.

We all know you want this game to be amazing. But its time to give that up, and do the same thing that the rest of us have done. And that is to realize that this game is just bad.

[edit: removed bickering]

Stay the way you are and just assume when you don´t get it...there is nothing to get.

Ignorance is bliss. 

Modifié par maaaze, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:25 .

[Necrotron]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

Hello, I am satan.

THIS ONE SPEAK TRUTH !  I BELIEVE HIM !

Referring to me?  I have no quarrel with you, nor have I ever interacted with you before.  That is....quite offensive, unnecessary, and very much a rude thing to say.  Please refrain from being pointlessly offensive and insulting on these forums.  Thank you.

Modifié par Bathaius, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:25 .

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...

Hey Big Boy,

it is time to face the facts...the ending was just to complicated for you.

sorry, it is not your fault...you are just the way you are.

It is not Biowares fault...they just expected more of you.

thats all.

Stay the way you are and just assume when you don´t get it...there is nothing to get.

Ignorance is bliss. 

This reminds me...

[Mazebook]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Hey Big Boy,

it is time to face the facts...the ending was just to complicated for you.

sorry, it is not your fault...you are just the way you are.

It is not Biowares fault...they just expected more of you.

thats all.

Stay the way you are and just assume when you don´t get it...there is nothing to get.

Ignorance is bliss. 

This reminds me...

[pointless bickering removed by me]

Modifié par maaaze, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[Mazebook]

D24O wrote...

maaaze wrote...

The crucible is alredy bult, yes, but according to you the decision room isn't, at least not completely. My point was that to repurpose it it needed time, time the game shows us it didn't have. 

It is more than a power source...it is mostly a power source but also more than that.
It creates new possibilitys. by adapting and using the citadel for what it was designed for.
why do you think it needs time?...i don´t understand... it was built with the citadel in mind.

Bolded. The Citadel is part of the catalyst, and is part of the reaper solution. The Crucible comes along and brings enough power to exploit it to a fuller potentiel, depending on how well the Crucible is constructed.

it uses the citadel against the reapers. turning their weapon against them...that was the point of the crucible.

[v TricKy v]

maaaze wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

maaaze wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst is a necessary proxy. Imagine the exact same scene, but without anyone or anything to explain what the options are.

Yeah, that'd be far worse than anything we got.

The thing is every other neutral or friendly character could have worked in that scene but right now it makes no sense because we are talking with the enemy leader. We are negotiating and arguing with an ancient mass murder. I dont know how Bioware failed to see that this cant work.

You are not negotiating...you hold all the cards in your hands...you dictate how your enemy (the catalyst) is destroyed

You dont. He lets you.
If he wanted he could just destroy or turn off the crucible like in the refuse ending. The Catalyst holds all the cards because you can pick the choices he presented you or you get destroyed. You have to obey him.

No...if you don´t use your bomb you have built...you loose...if you don´t play your hand and resign from the match how do you expect to win?

You don´t have to obey him in anyway or form. He is not the one who built the crucible. You did. 

So he holds the cards. You can only end it the ways he presented you. He doesnt let you explore it further. Maybe there is an other possibility which he didnt mentioned? You have to take his word that there is nothing more to it.

[D24O]

[quote]maaaze wrote...

Bolded. The Citadel is part of the catalyst, and is part of the reaper solution. The Crucible comes along and brings enough power to exploit it to a fuller potentiel, depending on how well the Crucible is constructed.

[/quote]

it uses the citadel against the reapers. turning their weapon against them...that was the point of the crucible.

[/quote]
Once more, I'll bold the pount of my argument. Remember the Catalyst is the citadel, this comes from the horses mouth, so unless you want to open the can of worms about trusting him, we have to agree on that.

[Cyberfrog81]

v TricKy v wrote...

So he holds the cards. You can only end it the ways he presented you. He doesnt let you explore it further. Maybe there is an other possibility which he didnt mentioned? You have to take his word that there is nothing more to it.

Exactly. If synthesis is possible, magic is possible. A magical beam that ONLY destroys or disables Reapers is possible.

But that's not on the table. To destroy them, you have to destroy every synthetic life form. After two games building them up as a form of life just as valid as organic life. That sucks. And the other choices are worse.

[Ticonderoga117]

"The Cruicible is little more than a power source."

Thus, the Citadel (and thus GlowBoy) actually provides the mechanism for the choices, the relays boost the range, the Crucible supplies the power

/thread

[Necrotron]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

So he holds the cards. You can only end it the ways he presented you. He doesnt let you explore it further. Maybe there is an other possibility which he didnt mentioned? You have to take his word that there is nothing more to it.

Exactly. If synthesis is possible, magic is possible. A magical beam that ONLY destroys or disables Reapers is possible.

But that's not on the table. To destroy them, you have to destroy every synthetic life form. After two games building them up as a form of life just as valid as organic life. That sucks. And the other choices are worse.

They really wanted bittersweet for the ending.  I think for some Shepards who chose not to recognize synthetics are 'living', the destroy choice is easy.  For most of us, that choice is very, very hard.

I don't personally 'like' the choices we were given (I prefer happy endings), but my only qualm is how they are presented (through only one source, the same source who created the Reapers and likely indocrinated the Illusive Man).

In the end though, you can either choose to trust the catalyst (and pick a choice) or refuse (and have a future cycle win), so at least there is some sweet in the bitter.  I border on choosing Control (if I assume the catalyst is truthful) or refuse.  Refuse feels more logical to me to pick, but I prefer the resolution Control brings (if I metagame it).