303 réponses à ce sujet

[Memnon]

Carlthestrange wrote...

Even those with common sense can have conflicting opinions of interest.

Just find it weird that people are going for each others jugular over differences of perspective.

Well, there are a few different things at play - whether or not people find vent boy and the Catalyst to be annoying plot devices is subjective; whether or not the Crucible was a power source is not. That is explicitly stated by the Catalyst ... whether or not a power source can change the functionality of the device it is powering shouldn't be subjective, but wherever there is space magic I guess anything is possible. But I still maintain that changing out a battery does not turn a motor into a LED ...

[Mazebook]

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So please, stop pretending otherwise.

I see you're at it again with the 'only my opinion could possibly be right and don't dare try to contradict me' angle. It's really not making you any friends.

I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.
it all boils down to that the citadel was used against the reapers. The crucible made this possible... ergo the choices originate from the crucible.

there is simply no other logical arguement to make.

[Mazebook]

Carlthestrange wrote...

Even those with common sense can have conflicting opinions of interest.

Just find it weird that people are going for each others jugular over differences of perspective.

yes it is wierd... you and i are guilty of this. though we seem to be aware of this mismatch...we have a hard time adapting and changing our relationships and perception to and of other people...

this is true for every conflict. 

Modifié par maaaze, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:38 .

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.
it all boils down to that the citadel was used against the reapers. The crucible made this possible... ergo the choices originate from the crucible.

there is simply no other logical arguement to make.

*ahem*

"The Cruicible is little more than a power source."

Ergo, the Citadel provides the mechanisms for the choices, the Relays boost the range, the Crucible is a battery.

The Crucible does nothing else.

[RavenEyry]

maaaze wrote...

I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.

Not compelling to you does not autoatically make it wrong.

[Mazebook]

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.

Not compelling to you does not autoatically make it wrong.

their arguments are based on misunderstanding...of failing to see the context in which the statements were made.

They are taking these statements and taking them apart...ignoring the context in which they were stated.

this method is similiar to fox news line of "reasoning".

[elitehunter34]

Maaze you're initial premise wrong. The control and destroy apparatuses did not come from the Crucible. Synthesis is simply the beam down the middle. When the Crucible docked you can see that these apparatuses weren't on the Crucible, so they had to come from the Citadel. The Crucible allows these options to happen, but it didn't create them. Look at this part. The Crucible is on the top and the rest are on the bottom. There is no way these apparatuses came from the Crucible.

If this is true than this means that the these apparatuses were built into the Citadel. The Citadel was created by the Reapers. The Reapers created the Citadel and the Mass Relays as stated in Mass Effect 1. We have no proof to suggest otherwise. This means that the apparatuses were put on the Citadel at some point in time by someone and the Reapers didn't notice, care, or bizarrely put them in themselves

Perhaps this isn't what the designers intended, but this is what it looks like. Until proven otherwise this is what we have to believe. You cannot ignore visual evidence and there is no other direct evidence that proves otherwise.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

maaaze wrote...

The only conection is that they used the weapons of the reapers against them self.

It is like if in WWII japan had devolped atomic bombs first. and where about to use them.

And america redirected the bombers so they bomb their own citys...
would this still be in line with what Japan wanted.

Synthetics are unfortunate colleteral damage...but they were all ready to give their life to end the reapers thread.

No they are not unfortuante collateral damage-they are targeted for extinction.  Individual humans were prepared to die as well to end the reaper threat.  If Shepard had decided to believe his enemy and picked destroy and it killed all humans everywhere, would that be allright?  Collateral damage is what happens as the result of fighting and if some geth were killed in some unfortunate but unintended manner or because they had been sent in to fight that is a consequence of war.  Genocide never is allowable or defensible.  You lose any moral authority if you say it's ok to wipe out a whole race of people for a good cause.  No cause justifies that.  You do that and you've lost your soul.  It's like being told you must kill one of your children for your family to live.  If you refuse and everyone dies, that's on the killer's soul.  If you kill one of your children, even if you and your family do live, the act is on your soul.

You have no proof anywhere that the choices are anything but creations of the catalyst or his creators.  He says what they are, he says what they do, and he says he's known all along about the crucible and the citadel is a part of him, just like your arm is a part of you.  If you get an abstract tatoo on your arm and can describe what it means and you know where it came from, you can't say you had nothing to do with it.  That tatoo didn't just appear out of nowhere because some tatoo needle showed up.  And the choices didn't just pop up because the crucible power source appeared.  The crucible is not magical-it was in the original endings, but now it is just a power source. 

The kid even echoes what Harbinger said at the end of ME2-they would find another way.  The kid says he had a solution that is no longer working so he needs another solution and he has new solutions.  Actually if he solution (the reapers) are no longer working then the obvious choice would be to stand there and do nothing.  However, the reapers still seem to be doing what they always were doing.  So what does this mean-they as a solution are no longer working?  Does that mean people are winning or could win?  Don't move Shepard, don't do anything.  The kid needs Shepard to make his (HIS) new solutions work. 

They also are set up as solutions to his problems and not as tools to destroy the reapers-the only goal the galaxy has been working toward and has sent Shepard to achieve.  The reapers were the solution to his problem, the choices are new ones.  That's clear.  All of them are poison.  They do things that are amoral and if Shepard chooses one, that means s/he believes the kid and believes the kid is right-synthetics created by organics and not the reapers are the problem. 

His previous belief was he had to destroy the organics that created crazy killer synthetics, but his solution now has more nuance to it or so he and the writers think.  He needs Shepard to either destroy those evil nasty synthetics, rule over them and all life through the use of the reapers, or change everybody so there's no real reason to create synthetics that will kill everybody.  You can choose but all you are doing is helping him.  And since he is a warped AI that was never programmed to fully understand the impact of his decisions (this is his flaw) he doesn't see or care what the choices mean.  They are genocide, forced eugenics (a galaxy wide assault or molestation) and godhood - the control of serial killer beings that have been "eating" people.  There is no way this could be construed as coming from anything but the kid.

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...

their arguments are based on misunderstanding...this method is similiar to fox news line of "reasoning".

We have agree that we will disagree...
Problem is that you are doing same, even still walking again and again in cirlces... We walk thru same way atleast dozen times and with Crucible atleast 2 times and you are going again into same hole despite that most people negate your conclusions, enough Anti-Catalyst guys with basic common logic here on BSN would told you atleast one problem which was created by Catalyst and Crucible. But you are going hard way with putting them on pedestal beyound our cemprehension LOL - and if you want argue with someone which was polite than don´t do this in this way.

maaaze wrote...

Hey Big Boy,

it is time to face the facts...the ending was just to complicated for you.

sorry, it is not your fault...you are just the way you are.

It is not Biowares fault...they just expected more of you.

thats all.

Stay the way you are and just assume when you don´t get it...there is nothing to get.

Ignorance is bliss. 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So please, stop pretending otherwise.

I see you're at it again with the 'only my opinion could possibly be right and don't dare try to contradict me' angle. It's really not making you any friends.

I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.
it all boils down to that the citadel was used against the reapers. The crucible made this possible... ergo the choices originate from the crucible.

there is simply no other logical arguement to make.

You continually ignore the compelling arguments others make.  In any valid discussion you can't say people refuse to see it from my perspective if you ignore why they can't see it from your perspective.

The crucible is a power source.  Even if you go through and see what it's made of, it's a power source.  Energy can't in and of itself do the things you think the crucible does.  The crucible powers the choices.  It's existence could possibly cause the kid's programming to change, simply because it exists, but the only basis for believing that would be because the kid says so and he's not the most trustworthy of beings.  He proved he is duplicitous by turning on his creators and making them into a reaper.  That doesn't have to mean he even cares to lie or fully understands the reality of it.  It just means he does it.  We lack the proper wording to describe his nature so to be understood we apply human terms.

He is evil, he is crazy, he already has shown he lies.  These are just words to describe the impact of what he does.  He does what we would consider to be evil things.  If he were a person his logic would be described as crazy.  He says something and does something else or contradicts himself.  He lacks credibility.  He even says he needs Shepard to do something to help him fulfill his purpose. 

Please never again say people are not making compelling arguments.  People have continually done so.

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

maaaze wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So please, stop pretending otherwise.

I see you're at it again with the 'only my opinion could possibly be right and don't dare try to contradict me' angle. It's really not making you any friends.

I can back up my arguement. Others failed to deliver a compelling arguement against this.
it all boils down to that the citadel was used against the reapers. The crucible made this possible... ergo the choices originate from the crucible.

there is simply no other logical arguement to make.

You continually ignore the compelling arguments others make.  In any valid discussion you can't say people refuse to see it from my perspective if you ignore why they can't see it from your perspective.

The crucible is a power source.  Even if you go through and see what it's made of, it's a power source.  Energy can't in and of itself do the things you think the crucible does.  The crucible powers the choices.  It's existence could possibly cause the kid's programming to change, simply because it exists, but the only basis for believing that would be because the kid says so and he's not the most trustworthy of beings.  He proved he is duplicitous by turning on his creators and making them into a reaper.  That doesn't have to mean he even cares to lie or fully understands the reality of it.  It just means he does it.  We lack the proper wording to describe his nature so to be understood we apply human terms.

He is evil, he is crazy, he already has shown he lies.  These are just words to describe the impact of what he does.  He does what we would consider to be evil things.  If he were a person his logic would be described as crazy.  He says something and does something else or contradicts himself.  He lacks credibility.  He even says he needs Shepard to do something to help him fulfill his purpose. 

Please never again say people are not making compelling arguments.  People have continually done so.

If you don't want to believe the catalyst when it said the crucible changed him, why believe it when it says it is mearly a power source?

[Applepie_Svk]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

If you don't want to believe the catalyst when it said the crucible changed him, why believe it when it says it is mearly a power source?

Catalyst negate own conclusion alteast 10 times in his conversation, logic simply failing ...

[Humakt83]

Why is "Crucible is a little more than a power source" then?

Reapers are behind Crucible. Face it.

Modifié par Humakt83, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[Memnon]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

If you don't want to believe the catalyst when it said the crucible changed him, why believe it when it says it is mearly a power source?

I think we're mixing arguments here - you have to make an assumption before you go down one road or the other. For the sake of argument, I think we're assuming the Catalyst is not lying ... so the Crucible is a power source, etc. But with that assumption in mind, it makes absolutely no sense why these options exist or how they exist, or how the original designers of the Crucible knew how to design the interface. I mean ... why do you have to SHOOT a tube to execute the destroy option? When I'm designing control interfaces I generally tend to provide operators options that don't explode when you interact with them ...

[luchozuca]

The fact that this kind of threads keep popping up every couple of days is undeniable proof of how twisted and nonsensical the ME3 ending is, yes, EC included.
The lore is destroyed, there's no explanation even on how the Citadel, just being a Mass Relay device suddenly becomes a space magic cannon that when plugged with a duracell battery can alter the composition of life on the galaxy. Or how the heck the Starbrat suddenly pops up when Shepard reaches the Crucible dock area but he never intervened on ME1 when Sovereign was manipulating the Citadel control, being that at that point of time, his solution of Reapers reaping the Galaxy was correct by his logic, he should have helped Sovereign succeed but he didn't.
That being said, the choices are offered by the Starbrat and their appearance is consequence of the Crucible docking on the Citadel, but they come from the Starbrat as he supposedly controls the Citadel and how it interacts with the Crucible imo

[Applepie_Svk]

luchozuca wrote...
space magic cannon that when plugged with a duracell battery

You are my hero ! sweet 

[3DandBeyond]

Carlthestrange wrote...

Even those with common sense can have conflicting opinions of interest.

Just find it weird that people are going for each others jugular over differences of perspective.

This need not be so but what frequently happens is someone asserts an idea is true.  Others give reasons as to why it isn't and then it starts.  Some ideas are refuted with real logic and 1+1=2.  Not everything is just total speculation and opinion.  And it becomes nasty when one person can't back up what they are saying with anything other than, "because I said so and I have a right to my opinion."  Yes, your opinion and perspective matter but if someone can show you the fallacy of what you say, be big enough to admit it and not just keep saying people are nasty because they won't admit I'm right and I'm right because it's my opinion.

In this case, the burden of proof is on the OP.  He stated with certainty his opinion that the crucible created the choices and the catalyst is somehow tragic.  This is all based upon what the catalyst says.  Just to be funny, assume this puts the catalyst on trial.  He's the defendant.  People have called him the criminal.  He has admitted to being a mass murderer and is in the process of doing so.  But he has reasons for doing so (disproven) and going forward he can solve his problem without continuing to murder everyone.  He is in possession of the tools to do this.  But so far all we have is his word that he will reform.  Help showed up that made him see the light-the crucible.  It's a big battery (power source), but it made him want to change his ways and he needs someone to use the tools to solve his problem and reasons for killing in the first place (disproven).

None of the tools that are on the floor in his house (the new tools to solve his problem and reason for killing) are particularly good.  He knows all about the tools but had nothing to do with them being in his house.  They must have been placed there by someone else.

The hurdle that must be overcome is whether there is any evidence from anywhere besides the kid himself as to what the tools on the floor of his home do and how they got there.  Other tools he has been using have blood and people goo on them.  He said he needed other new tools for the same purpose as his original bloody ones that no longer work. 

[XqctaX]

lots of headcanon and speculation presented as facts....
*slowly backing out of this thread*

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

If you don't want to believe the catalyst when it said the crucible changed him, why believe it when it says it is mearly a power source?

I don't believe a thing he says.  I also said in case you missed it that you need to look at everything that went into making the crucible and none of that screams out as being a super DNA changer.  In fact all of that stuff points to it creating energy and being a power source not Mr. Magical Space Swiss Army Knife.

The OP believes the kid.  If he does then he must believe the crucible is only a power source.  That means the choices did not evolve from it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[AresKeith]

Stornskar wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

If you don't want to believe the catalyst when it said the crucible changed him, why believe it when it says it is mearly a power source?

I think we're mixing arguments here - you have to make an assumption before you go down one road or the other. For the sake of argument, I think we're assuming the Catalyst is not lying ... so the Crucible is a power source, etc. But with that assumption in mind, it makes absolutely no sense why these options exist or how they exist, or how the original designers of the Crucible knew how to design the interface. I mean ... why do you have to SHOOT a tube to execute the destroy option? When I'm designing control interfaces I generally tend to provide operators options that don't explode when you interact with them ...

thats why I think the tube you shoot overloads the Citadel and Crucible or else it would be similiar to the control option

[Uncle Jo]

I'm wondering why the previous races would build the Crucible including a Synthesis option, which is clearly the Reapers goal. Destroy ok, Control maybe, but the green beam?

Even funnier is that destroy and and control are located on a part of the citadel (which was designed and built by the Reapers) where no organic had ever set foot.

[Jassu1979]

Still trying to rationalize away all the abysmal writing that went into the ending, are you?

Modifié par Jassu1979, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[Xandurpein]

The sum of all information we get in the game about the Crucible and the three choices simply do ot add up to anything sensible. It's perfectly possible to construct a logical explanation as long as you cherry-pick among the information, but then you can get more than one possible solution. So either find an explanation that covers all the facts and statements we get in the game, or admit that things don't add up and that several different asumptions are equally valid, but  none can lay claim to being "the" thruth.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:29 .

[Memnon]

XqctaX wrote...

lots of headcanon and speculation presented as facts....
*slowly backing out of this thread*

It's not headcanon, we're using dialogue straight from the game. For instance, I think the "fire is not at war" analogy to be ridiculous, considering Sovereign says they are each a nation, independent and then the Catalyst says:

Starbrat says ...
Perhaps, I control the Reapers. They are my solution

So tell them to stop killing people for a few hours and let's talk ... if he controls them, then why does he have no control over what to do next? If we're making a decision of galactic significance, I want as much information as I can possibly get. Let's call a cease fire and talk things over. And on that note, when Shepard asks who designed the Crucible, we get:

Starbrat says ...
You would not know them, and there is not enough time to explain

WHAT??? The harvesting takes nearly a century, right? Is there a self destruct sequence that has been activated that we don't know about? What's the hurry here, again we're making decisions on a galactic scale and we're just supposed to believe that 1) we don't have time to discuss it, which means we have to 2) just take starbrat's word on everything

Regarding the Crucible's function:

Starbrat says ...

The device that you know as the Crucible is little more than a power source. It's crude, but effective and adaptive in its design

This is the kicker, and why the EC (in my mind) created more questions than it answered - I'll go back to my previous posts in this topic. A battery is interchangable - I can take a motor and provide it power by any number of means as long as those means bring electrons from one side to the other. Changing the battery does not change a motor into a light source. Energy source provides power, the device provides the functionality. This is where we keep being told to use common sense, or listen more closely to what he is saying and pay attention to context ... the point is, we ARE and when we do it makes even less sense

Modifié par Stornskar, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .

[jasonxxsatanna]

For me I always thought the star brat was either a rouge AI , if IT was not true, but any way maybe BW should have made the star child take on 3 different appearances based on your choices from the game , either looking like your love interest, your enemy, like Saren, or a buddy / supervisor maybe Anderson, Hackett ,I think it would have made the whole ending easier to stomach