303 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazebook]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Maaze my reply is on page 6 right below one of your posts.
Also the Catalyst does in fact say the Crucible is "little more than a power source."
I am not trying to insult or patronize you, but I remember you saying somewhere that English is not your first language.  I don't know if it's the same for other languages, but in English saying "little more than a power source." is A LOT different than saying "a little more than a power source."  Saying the Crucible is "little more than a power source is basically saying that the Crucible is a power source and nothing more.  Adding the "a" would be saying it is a lot more than a power source.  It's an English idiom.

So because the Catalyst doesn't add the "a" he is really trying to say that the Crucible is basically a power source.  I don't see how it matters either way though, it's not really important to what I'm saying at least.

i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

The Crucible changed me, created new... possibilities. But I can't make them happen.  "

he can not make them happen because he did not design them.

Modifié par maaaze, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[tyrvas]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Maaze my reply is on page 6 right below one of your posts.
Also the Catalyst does in fact say the Crucible is "little more than a power source."
I am not trying to insult or patronize you, but I remember you saying somewhere that English is not your first language.  I don't know if it's the same for other languages, but in English saying "little more than a power source." is A LOT different than saying "a little more than a power source."  Saying the Crucible is "little more than a power source is basically saying that the Crucible is a power source and nothing more.  Adding the "a" would be saying it is a lot more than a power source.  It's an English idiom.

So because the Catalyst doesn't add the "a" he is really trying to say that the Crucible is basically a power source.  I don't see how it matters either way though, it's not really important to what I'm saying at least.

Totally correct...

...but I would like to add that later on in the Catalyst/Shep conversation, the Catalyst says something like;

"the Crucible has changed me".

What did it change in the Catalyst. wasn't the Crucible only a power source.  ????

Check my earlier post if you wish.

Modifié par tyrvas, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[Cyberfrog81]

maaaze wrote...

so it's pure coincidence that one of th solution is the catalyst dream ?  

yes in low ems it is not even possible

Could be because the power source is damaged. It's not evidence of it being a feature of the Crucible.

They wanted to stop  the reapers from killing them, not become reaper king, as those who wanted were indoctrinated. 

many cycles believed controlling the reapers was the way to go...including the illusive man.

That's the point. Each cycle the Reapers apparently make sure there's an indoctrinated faction that wants to control them. What for?

maaaze wrote...

but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

"
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">. However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...and it is the crucible...

Yeah, the Crucible produces energy. That's not a very controversial claim.

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...
i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

It's capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy because it's a power source.

I can just as easily say:
This turbine generator is little more than a power source; however, in combination with breakers and conductors it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the ship

Modifié par Stornskar, 26 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[Mazebook]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...
i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

It's capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy because it's a power source.

I can just as easily say:
This turbine generator is little more than a power source; however, in combination with breakers and conductors it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the ship

yes it alters the ship...now it can drive...before it had a different purpose. trapping the people inside.

it alters the trap in order to escape.

Now it can drive to new places...it was exactly designed to do just that.

ergo...the ship can now be used against the people who wanted to trap you.


He says "
 in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable  ".meaning it is now more than what it was before. with the citadel it can alter the universes...which was the exact intend of the designers.

Modifié par maaaze, 26 juillet 2012 - 06:06 .

[Uncle Jo]

maaaze wrote...

[/b]if someone gets ignorant...i get angry.

Awefully presomptuous. It makes you sound like a douchebag.

I replied to all these arguements which are based on misinformation or are entirely baseless...

I don't think so. They're based on what the brat said or things we've seen in-game. The interpretation might be different as yours, but not baseless.

but for you i will repeat what i said ...one ...more ... time

Thank... you... very... much...

the room is not important...it just the place where the crucible docks.

It is. Since the lift gives you the only possible access to the decision room where the crucible docks. The lift is on the citadel, so the crucible's designers must have known about this room. Which is impossible or else we should have heard about it before.

the crucible repurposed these devices...they had different function originaly

Headcanon. Care to explain what in the world they were designed for ?

"Why would the designers create a Crucible that offers Synthesis as option?" 

One cycle maybe did just like the idea.

LOL. I'd be curious to know who they were. Wait, I think I'm on something... The Reapers ?

it is common sense...

Only yours then...

[b]i already answered all these earlier ...read the whole thread...god damit...

I read it and I'll continue to do so. I swear.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:05 .

[3DandBeyond]

maaaze wrote...

when you beginn with ...the kid says...it is a quote...even without "..."

but yeah you are right it is not "a little more than" it is "little more than"...which makes only a minor difference.

Ok, honestly.  I said it is not a direct quote which means that I repeated word for word what was said.  And you further tried to correct an error I never made by doing the exact same thing you accused me of.  At this point you do need to apologize and learn to actually pay attention and not just get all hot and bothered over your own opinions.


Here's one from another thread-no need for quotation marks because it uses the forum's method of showing it's a direct quote.

maaaze wrote...

A Tiger is not evil by killing a Zebra...because it is in his being to survive...
The
only reason the Catalyst exists is to find a impossible solution. It is
in his core being...he was designed this way and therefore is
innocent.

You have also asserted this in this thread that the catalyst is a tragic figure.  No, he's warped.  His programming went off track and he can't even figure out a solution based upon what inferior organics have already done.

The reapers were not mindless in ME1, but the catalyst is asserting that they are on auto-pilot, doing things because they must.  We have no sense of that in ME1 at all and no sense of that until the end of ME3.

He says this so somebody is lying.  Was Sovereign lying?  If so, then the catalyst is lying too because the reapers are him-he is their combined intelligence.  They don't care about conflict, but he does.  That's his purpose.  So he knows about war and conflict and claims to be more than an AI.  In saying the reapers don't care about war and conflict, he is saying he does understand it and he knows he is causing it.  The reapers (the dumb ones in ME3) may not know about it, but he does.

What does indoctrination do?  It causes people to believe things that aren't true.  TIM believed he could control the reapers and he was supposedly right, but he couldn't because he was indoctrinated.  So, he was led to believe he could but couldn't.  So, someone lied to him.  Indoctrination made him believe the lie or it caused the lie and since it's from the reapers and they are dumb, it is from the kid and it's a lie.

Saren believed if he worked with Sovereign he could save lives, including his own.  All might be spared.  He was indoctrinated and believed a lie.  If reapers are dumb, then the kid was using indoctrination and Sovereign to lie.

Sovereign was using the heretic geth.  They worshipped Sovereign but he was laughing at them and was insulted by them behind their back.  But they believed he was their god and he fed into that deception.  If reapers are dumb then the kid was using Sovereign to get the heretics to believe this so he was deceiving (lying to) the heretics.

Harbinger says he is "their" (organics) salvation through destruction.  Hmm, that means they are killing people and it's pretty obvious they are killing people.  But the kid says they aren't, they are ascending them.  Ok, no there are a lot of dead people all over the place.

The kid says the reapers are like a cleansing fire doing what they were meant to do.  If so then he is like an arsonist with a blowtorch.  A blowtorch is meant to start a fire, but the person holding it is directing it where to go and what to light on fire.  The blowtorch has no idea what it's doing and certainly isn't going to say it's an independent nation.  It pretty much won't say anything.  The person holding the blowtorch does know what he's doing and if he is so out of it he doesn't, that doesn't mean I think it's great to let him keep doing it.  And if he sees there are tanks of gasoline that he needs me to lift to help him, I am not going to do it.  "Oh but those tanks of gasoline will help me put the fire out"-what an imaginary arsonist might say.

[3DandBeyond]

maaaze wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Maaze my reply is on page 6 right below one of your posts.
Also the Catalyst does in fact say the Crucible is "little more than a power source."
I am not trying to insult or patronize you, but I remember you saying somewhere that English is not your first language.  I don't know if it's the same for other languages, but in English saying "little more than a power source." is A LOT different than saying "a little more than a power source."  Saying the Crucible is "little more than a power source is basically saying that the Crucible is a power source and nothing more.  Adding the "a" would be saying it is a lot more than a power source.  It's an English idiom.

So because the Catalyst doesn't add the "a" he is really trying to say that the Crucible is basically a power source.  I don't see how it matters either way though, it's not really important to what I'm saying at least.

i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

The Crucible changed me, created new... possibilities. But I can't make them happen.  "

he can not make them happen because he did not design them.

The problem is you do have to get into the specifics of the English language, because saying "it is little more than a power source" means exactly that it is just a power source.  That's just what it means.  Releasing energy is also what a power source does.

When you turn on a light it is drawing energy from its power source.

If it is just a power source how could it change him?  I know he says that but he says an awful lot of BS.  He contradicts himself. 


This is off topic but is to illustrate this.  Look at how he describes what Destroy will do.  He says it will target all synthetic life.  He says there will be losses but no more than have already occurred.  Not a direct quote...but what does he mean by that?  EDI and the geth will die AFTER destroy is chosen.  Aren't those more losses than already have occurred? 

It's just that he isn't exactly consistent and he is duplicitous, mysterious, and has chosen a facade that is meant to fool Shepard.  Why if he is the combined intelligence of all reapers, doesn't he show up as a reaper VI?

[Applepie_Svk]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is you do have to get into the specifics of the English language, because saying "it is little more than a power source" means exactly that it is just a power source.  That's just what it means.  

So 9 pages of outrage because of misinterpretation:wizard:

[3DandBeyond]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is you do have to get into the specifics of the English language, because saying "it is little more than a power source" means exactly that it is just a power source.  That's just what it means.  

So 9 pages of outrage because of misinterpretation:wizard:

This is the world that Bioware has created.

[Uncle Jo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is you do have to get into the specifics of the English language, because saying "it is little more than a power source" means exactly that it is just a power source.  That's just what it means.  

So 9 pages of outrage because of misinterpretation:wizard:

This is the world that Bioware has created.

ME3 will be forever remembered (and generally not in a good way) because of two things: Crucible and Catalyst. It will be the example that should never be followed in the future.

[Applepie_Svk]

Uncle Jo wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is you do have to get into the specifics of the English language, because saying "it is little more than a power source" means exactly that it is just a power source.  That's just what it means.  

So 9 pages of outrage because of misinterpretation:wizard:

This is the world that Bioware has created.

ME3 will be forever remembered (and generally not in a good way) because of two things: Crucible and Catalyst. It will be the example that should never be followed in the future.

Crucible could be justified but not main villain - Catalyst, presented in last 10 minutes of game - with his wild explanation.

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...
i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

It's capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy because it's a power source.

I can just as easily say:
This turbine generator is little more than a power source; however, in combination with breakers and conductors it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the ship

yes it alters the ship...now it can drive...before it had a different purpose. trapping the people inside.

it alters the trap in order to escape.

Now it can drive to new places...it was exactly designed to do just that.

ergo...the ship can now be used against the people who wanted to trap you.


He says "
 in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable  ".meaning it is now more than what it was before. with the citadel it can alter the universes...which was the exact intend of the designers.

The ship was built with the functionality in mind, though, which goes against your original premise - the turbine generator changed nothing. To say that providing a device power is altering its purpose because without power it is dormant and inactive is an enormous stretch

[3DandBeyond]

Uncle Jo wrote...

ME3 will be forever remembered (and generally not in a good way) because of two things: Crucible and Catalyst. It will be the example that should never be followed in the future.

And you know given their real meaning that is incredibly sad.  But now they have become the best examples of how not to write a story.  MacGuffin and Deus ex Machina, respectively.

I'm reading up on good writing habits and one of the first things they say to stay away from are DeMs.  I'd say neither is bad if you make them make some sense.  The crucible could have done something rational. 

The kid could have been some other form (not that freaking kid or maybe he changes from a kid to the shape of a reaper) that comes out to even try and stop you from using the crucible.  The catalyst may even start to explain why they've been doing what they've been doing (solving a problem) and even may explain the origins of the reapers as they die.  And he might even have said the reapers are not the worst things that are out there and not the problem, that they were the solution and the real problem is much much worse.

I even think I could have accepted the idea that they were saving some organic life from something more evil and destructive that is on its way by killing advanced organics.

[elitehunter34]

3DandBeyond wrote...
And you know given their real meaning that is incredibly sad.  But now they have become the best examples of how not to write a story.  MacGuffin and Deus ex Machina, respectively.

I'm reading up on good writing habits and one of the first things they say to stay away from are DeMs.  I'd say neither is bad if you make them make some sense.  The crucible could have done something rational. 

The kid could have been some other form (not that freaking kid or maybe he changes from a kid to the shape of a reaper) that comes out to even try and stop you from using the crucible.  The catalyst may even start to explain why they've been doing what they've been doing (solving a problem) and even may explain the origins of the reapers as they die.  And he might even have said the reapers are not the worst things that are out there and not the problem, that they were the solution and the real problem is much much worse.

I even think I could have accepted the idea that they were saving some organic life from something more evil and destructive that is on its way by killing advanced organics.

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

[3DandBeyond]

elitehunter34 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And you know given their real meaning that is incredibly sad.  But now they have become the best examples of how not to write a story.  MacGuffin and Deus ex Machina, respectively.

I'm reading up on good writing habits and one of the first things they say to stay away from are DeMs.  I'd say neither is bad if you make them make some sense.  The crucible could have done something rational. 

The kid could have been some other form (not that freaking kid or maybe he changes from a kid to the shape of a reaper) that comes out to even try and stop you from using the crucible.  The catalyst may even start to explain why they've been doing what they've been doing (solving a problem) and even may explain the origins of the reapers as they die.  And he might even have said the reapers are not the worst things that are out there and not the problem, that they were the solution and the real problem is much much worse.

I even think I could have accepted the idea that they were saving some organic life from something more evil and destructive that is on its way by killing advanced organics.

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

Actually, for some reasons the writers decided to write a codex that said reapers had vulnerabilities and then decided to make them all but invincible.  They could just have easily decided to exploit the vulnerabilities.  They decided that doing so would create a longer story with more words and a bigger game.  They could have used that to make more money.

[Ticonderoga117]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

Anything other than the self-contradicting Catalyst and the convient Crucible would've worked. Seriously, the Reapers as they stand now are no more scarey than toys.

ME2 advances the plot just fine: Build a team of badasses, kill Reaper proxies, wreck thier plan.
ME3 should've been: Get the word out to the Galaxy, tie up problems, kill Reapers.

[3DandBeyond]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

Anything other than the self-contradicting Catalyst and the convient Crucible would've worked. Seriously, the Reapers as they stand now are no more scarey than toys.

ME2 advances the plot just fine: Build a team of badasses, kill Reaper proxies, wreck thier plan.
ME3 should've been: Get the word out to the Galaxy, tie up problems, kill Reapers.

+100

[Uncle Jo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

ME3 will be forever remembered (and generally not in a good way) because of two things: Crucible and Catalyst. It will be the example that should never be followed in the future.

And you know given their real meaning that is incredibly sad.  But now they have become the best examples of how not to write a story.  MacGuffin and Deus ex Machina, respectively.

I'm reading up on good writing habits and one of the first things they say to stay away from are DeMs.  I'd say neither is bad if you make them make some sense.  The crucible could have done something rational. 

The kid could have been some other form (not that freaking kid or maybe he changes from a kid to the shape of a reaper) that comes out to even try and stop you from using the crucible.  The catalyst may even start to explain why they've been doing what they've been doing (solving a problem) and even may explain the origins of the reapers as they die.  And he might even have said the reapers are not the worst things that are out there and not the problem, that they were the solution and the real problem is much much worse.

I even think I could have accepted the idea that they were saving some organic life from something more evil and destructive that is on its way by killing advanced organics.

The definition of Crucible (trial) and the idea of the Reapers toying with you until the last moment made me like the IT (I know it's off-topic).

Now at face-value, I personally think that, the writers made two huge mistakes: as you said, the ridiculous appearance of the Catalyst (dead kid) and he being the boss of the Reapers.
.
The first one made him at best untrustful and the second made the Reapers laughable. IMO it's the worst thing that could happen to any antagonist. Let alone the absolute retcon of the two previous games.

I've lost any respect to my archenemy as soon as the brat said "I control the Reapers." The EC blew them completely off with the infamous "Is fire at war?".

As for their motives, I was fine with not knowing them. Or simply assume that the Reapers were apex predators and that the cycle was about their reproduction. Not a great agenda, but still better than the "misunderstood good guys".

The Crucible could have been avoided, if the writers took more care of the main plot in ME2. I loved the game because of the characters, but it didn't prevent me to notice that the Reapers were pretty much ignored and the absurd, stupid reaction of the Council would have bad consequences in ME3. Hence Crucible, Catalyst.

I'm playing right now the Witcher 2 EE. it's refreshing, I must say.

[ZLurps]

3DandBeyond wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And you know given their real meaning that is incredibly sad.  But now they have become the best examples of how not to write a story.  MacGuffin and Deus ex Machina, respectively.

I'm reading up on good writing habits and one of the first things they say to stay away from are DeMs.  I'd say neither is bad if you make them make some sense.  The crucible could have done something rational. 

The kid could have been some other form (not that freaking kid or maybe he changes from a kid to the shape of a reaper) that comes out to even try and stop you from using the crucible.  The catalyst may even start to explain why they've been doing what they've been doing (solving a problem) and even may explain the origins of the reapers as they die.  And he might even have said the reapers are not the worst things that are out there and not the problem, that they were the solution and the real problem is much much worse.

I even think I could have accepted the idea that they were saving some organic life from something more evil and destructive that is on its way by killing advanced organics.

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

Actually, for some reasons the writers decided to write a codex that said reapers had vulnerabilities and then decided to make them all but invincible.  They could just have easily decided to exploit the vulnerabilities.  They decided that doing so would create a longer story with more words and a bigger game.  They could have used that to make more money.

While I agree that there are economical factors that added to this mess, I don't think it was that simple.

What comes to nerfing Reapers, it wasn't necessary at all. Crusible wasn't necessary either.

Citadel have counter part in the dark space. Plot might as well revolved around solving how to control and activate Citadel relay to dark space. Then explore Citadels counter part for answer how to defeat Reapers. Finding a way to somehow manipulate Reaper nanides would be easiest solution. Elements were established before ME3. That's just one example.


We will never know what happened in ME3 production, but according to Hudson (IIRC) they didn't had an ending prior 3 months to release. ME3 was supposed to be on market during December 2011, but Hudson saw, that they can't make it, not even after Omega was cut and production of Horizon mission and Javik outsourced to other studio so they got some additional months to finish the product.

Still, there are things out of place. Lightning and camera on where the game starts, lipsynch problems. In end game there are things like view of the battle outside of Citadel, which barely works in given field of view. Not huge problems, but is very difficult to see those but symptoms of a rush job. People who are more into these things can probably spot more odd details from here and there.

I sometimes wonder, if people who worked on production, always knew what they were doing. If the problem was, that script was going major re-write after re-write, situations could be something that isn't easily fixed even with more time and money, or say, getting good return for extra investment.

[elitehunter34]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Yeah this is off topic, but honestly given the previous games how could have the Reapers been defeated without the Crucible?  They were just written to be too strong and there were just too many of them.  Mass Effect 2 did nothing to advance the plot.  I honestly can't think of a scenario given the facts in game where the Reapers can be defeated conventionally.  Some aspect of the plot of Mass Effect would have to be changed.

Anything other than the self-contradicting Catalyst and the convient Crucible would've worked. Seriously, the Reapers as they stand now are no more scarey than toys.

ME2 advances the plot just fine: Build a team of badasses, kill Reaper proxies, wreck thier plan.
ME3 should've been: Get the word out to the Galaxy, tie up problems, kill Reapers.

ME2 did nothing to wreck the Reaper's plan.  It stopped the Collectors from making the human Reaper.  One out of the thousands of Sovereign class Reapers if the Codex is to be believed.  It did nothing to stop the inevitable coming of thousands and thousands of Reapers.  I honestly don't know how you can believe that it advanced the main goal of "stop the thousands of Reapers hiding in dark space" in any meaningful way.

Honestly, the Crucible doesn't bother me that much.  It could have actually been tied into the curent Mass Effect 2 plot with little changes by making Shepard find a Collector data file on the disabled Collector ship refrencing an an ancient Prothean super weapon, but the Collectors didn't have time decrypt it.  EDI would decrypt it by the time you finish the Suicide mission and then you would learn what the file really says.  There, an extremely easy way to tie it into the plot of Mass Effect 2 that forshadows it for Mass Effect 3.  

I honestly don't think the Crucible is a MacGuffin.  Is it incredibly convinient?  Yes, but while it is a device that drives the plot it's given a pretty clear explanation on why it's so important.  It isn't just a ring or a gun.  It was considered the last best hope of the Protheans to stop the Reapers but they couldn't deploy it.  It needs thousands of the best scientists and engineers in the galaxy for it to be built.  There are some problems with it (mainly the ending and the Catalyst, god damn that Catalyst) and some of it's functions should have been revealed along the way, but I don't see a problem with a super weapon that can help stop the Reapers.  It didn't have to do what it did in the endings.  Perhaps it could've simply drained the Reapers' shields or stunned them temporarily.  It doesn't have to be a Reaper off switch.  In a scenario similiar to what I suggested, you would still need the combined power of the fleets to destroy them.  It would have used your EMS, and it could have allowed for more awesome cutscenes.  No contrived choices, no starchild.  It would have been the perfect ending.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[Mazebook]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...
i don´t want to get into the specifics of the english language...little more than is not only...
but i think the important part is what comes after that statement.

" However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy "


Do you see ?! He says what it can do...

It's capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy because it's a power source.

I can just as easily say:
This turbine generator is little more than a power source; however, in combination with breakers and conductors it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the ship

yes it alters the ship...now it can drive...before it had a different purpose. trapping the people inside.

it alters the trap in order to escape.

Now it can drive to new places...it was exactly designed to do just that.

ergo...the ship can now be used against the people who wanted to trap you.


He says "
 in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable  ".meaning it is now more than what it was before. with the citadel it can alter the universes...which was the exact intend of the designers.

The ship was built with the functionality in mind, though, which goes against your original premise - the turbine generator changed nothing. To say that providing a device power is altering its purpose because without power it is dormant and inactive is an enormous stretch

No the ship was never meant to be ship in the first place.

The Citadel was a trap and not designed to do alter the universe. 

It purpose was to make the people dependend on it so they could not comunicate and travel without it.

The Crucible altered the Citadel and gave it new functions. The combination of the two can now change the galaxy.

Just as the designers planed.

[Seival]

maaaze wrote...

There is no evidence that the Catalyst creates these choices.

none. it makes no sense that he created these choises.

He just explains what the crucible does.

If the idea of synthesis was intended as a use of the crucible by its designers is debatable.

but destroy and control are not. these option originate from the Crucible and its designers.

So please, stop pretending otherwise.

thank you.

You should listen to the Catalist more carefully. The Crucuble is just a source of energy.

I believe that nothing in the end can happen without the original Catalist's permission. So victory was not just about the Crucible. It was more about convincing the original Catalist that its "solution" was wrong.

Please note, that these thoughts are coming from a pro-ender, and Control Ending supporter

[Mazebook]

3DandBeyond wrote...

maaaze wrote...

when you beginn with ...the kid says...it is a quote...even without "..."

but yeah you are right it is not "a little more than" it is "little more than"...which makes only a minor difference.

Ok, honestly.  I said it is not a direct quote which means that I repeated word for word what was said.  And you further tried to correct an error I never made by doing the exact same thing you accused me of.  At this point you do need to apologize and learn to actually pay attention and not just get all hot and bothered over your own opinions.


Here's one from another thread-no need for quotation marks because it uses the forum's method of showing it's a direct quote.

maaaze wrote...

A Tiger is not evil by killing a Zebra...because it is in his being to survive...
The
only reason the Catalyst exists is to find a impossible solution. It is
in his core being...he was designed this way and therefore is
innocent.

You have also asserted this in this thread that the catalyst is a tragic figure.  No, he's warped.  His programming went off track and he can't even figure out a solution based upon what inferior organics have already done.

The reapers were not mindless in ME1, but the catalyst is asserting that they are on auto-pilot, doing things because they must.  We have no sense of that in ME1 at all and no sense of that until the end of ME3.

He says this so somebody is lying.  Was Sovereign lying?  If so, then the catalyst is lying too because the reapers are him-he is their combined intelligence.  They don't care about conflict, but he does.  That's his purpose.  So he knows about war and conflict and claims to be more than an AI.  In saying the reapers don't care about war and conflict, he is saying he does understand it and he knows he is causing it.  The reapers (the dumb ones in ME3) may not know about it, but he does.

What does indoctrination do?  It causes people to believe things that aren't true.  TIM believed he could control the reapers and he was supposedly right, but he couldn't because he was indoctrinated.  So, he was led to believe he could but couldn't.  So, someone lied to him.  Indoctrination made him believe the lie or it caused the lie and since it's from the reapers and they are dumb, it is from the kid and it's a lie.

Saren believed if he worked with Sovereign he could save lives, including his own.  All might be spared.  He was indoctrinated and believed a lie.  If reapers are dumb, then the kid was using indoctrination and Sovereign to lie.

Sovereign was using the heretic geth.  They worshipped Sovereign but he was laughing at them and was insulted by them behind their back.  But they believed he was their god and he fed into that deception.  If reapers are dumb then the kid was using Sovereign to get the heretics to believe this so he was deceiving (lying to) the heretics.

Harbinger says he is "their" (organics) salvation through destruction.  Hmm, that means they are killing people and it's pretty obvious they are killing people.  But the kid says they aren't, they are ascending them.  Ok, no there are a lot of dead people all over the place.

The kid says the reapers are like a cleansing fire doing what they were meant to do.  If so then he is like an arsonist with a blowtorch.  A blowtorch is meant to start a fire, but the person holding it is directing it where to go and what to light on fire.  The blowtorch has no idea what it's doing and certainly isn't going to say it's an independent nation.  It pretty much won't say anything.  The person holding the blowtorch does know what he's doing and if he is so out of it he doesn't, that doesn't mean I think it's great to let him keep doing it.  And if he sees there are tanks of gasoline that he needs me to lift to help him, I am not going to do it.  "Oh but those tanks of gasoline will help me put the fire out"-what an imaginary arsonist might say.

Ok, honestly.  I said it is not a direct quote which means that I repeated word for word what was said.  And you further tried to correct an error I never made by doing the exact same thing you accused me of.  At this point you do need to apologize and learn to actually pay attention and not just get all hot and bothered over your own opinions. 

no... you said: "just a power source" when he actually said "little more than a power source"...

you still presented a false quote which lead to different implications.

The rest is pretty much offtopic... please feel free to post this in the appropiate thread...and i will respond.

[Mazebook]

Seival wrote...

maaaze wrote...

There is no evidence that the Catalyst creates these choices.

none. it makes no sense that he created these choises.

He just explains what the crucible does.

If the idea of synthesis was intended as a use of the crucible by its designers is debatable.

but destroy and control are not. these option originate from the Crucible and its designers.

So please, stop pretending otherwise.

thank you.

You should listen to the Catalist more carefully. The Crucuble is just a source of energy.

I believe that nothing in the end can happen without the original Catalist's permission. So victory was not just about the Crucible. It was more about convincing the original Catalist that its "solution" was wrong.

Please note, that these thoughts are coming from a pro-ender, and Control Ending supporter

The Crucuble is just a source of energy. 

sorry but no..that is not what he said.

"The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. "

in combination with the citadel the crucible is much more.