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[Texxaport]

I've taken on this project by myself. I started just a few days ago. I'll be updating as I go.

Tell me what you think!

texxaport.tumblr.com

[LinksOcarina]

Posted this in the thread in the other section, basically, I think a d20 system won't work too well, or at least be properly adapted.

One system I would use is the cardinal system, its lesser known, (I found it in the 2nd editions of the Ironclaw/Jadeclaw games by Sanguine Games) but it allows a lot more customization without worrying about core weaknesses. It also makes adaptation a lot simpler since it pretty much boils stuff down to simple modifiers based on the physical number of dice, over numbers of combined dice.

This is what I am talking about, the basic rules of the cardinal system.

Basically, there are 3 things you need to worry about. Traits, Skills, and Gifts.

Traits are 6 aspects each character has. Body, Speed, Will, Mind, Career (I.E, class) and Species, in the case for aliens. You assign a number to each of these for your characters, a d4, 3 d6, and 2 d8 to each trait. Everything goes up to a d12 in intervals of 2, from d4-d12. if you go over it, you start back at d4. See, dice are always separate in the cardinal system.

Skills are 15 different, well, skills you can customize per character. They are as follows (modified for Mass Effect)

Academics (how literate, knowledgable you are)
Athletics (how athletic you are)
Craft (Making items/modding items)
Deceit (lying)
Endurance (how durable you can be from running, jumping, moving long distances)
Evasion (dodging attacks)
Fighting (hand to hand/melee combat)
Investigation (for asking questions, inquiring information)
Negotiation (for negotiating)
Observation (for seeing things/searching for things)
Presence (can be used to distract or intimidate people, even charm them)
Shooting (shooting guns)
Tactics (working with allies)
Tech (how tech savvy you can, or how you can spot tech)
Vehicles (driving ships or craft)

The last part is gifts, which is basically special abilities and bonuses that augment the skills. For example, a gift like say, Shotgun Combat would give you an extra +1 damage when using shotguns. We also have gifts like ettiquite, which is a bonus when talking with politicians, or streetwise, which is a bonus when talking with criminals. Other gifts can be seemingly superfluous, but are really helpful in a situation. Carousing or gambling is a bonus when you are drinking or gambling, for example. So the gifts run a gamut of combat and social.

Some gifts you also need a prerequisite to grab. So like, improved shotgun combat, you need shotgun combat of course. Or maybe you get the gift of giant, which makes you huge, if you have a body of at least a d10.

Now, normally, a charater would choose a class and a race. For arguments sake, lets say you want to make a Krogan Mercenary. All races get 3 racial skills, and 3 racial gifts. So, say a Krogan would get something as follows:

Skills: Endurance, Athletics, Presence
Gifts: Increasted Trait: Body, Frightening (d12 when scaring/intimidating people), brawling combat (+1 damage when using your fists/gauntlets/knuckles)

So each Krogan character starts with these gifts and skills. So if you build a Krogan as follows:

Body: d8
Speed: d6
Mind: d4
Will: d6
Career: d6
Species: d8

The increased trait automatically makes your Body score go to a d10,so you start with a d10 in your traits.

Now, each of these skills is as high as your species die, so Endurance, Athletics and Presence each get an automatic d8 for our Krogan here.

next, the Career, or character class which is seperate. Say you want a Merc, well maybe their rundown is the following:

Mercenary
Career skills: Evasion, Fighting, Shooting
Career Gifts: Haggling (10% off at shops), Resolve (damage soak bonus), Veteran (aim bonus)

So since your career die is a d6, you get an automatic d6 in your evasions, fighting, and shooting skills.

Now, you get an adittional 13 marks for skills, and you can put them in any category, up to 3 marks per category. 1 mark is a d4, 2 marks a d6, and so on. Once you hit d12, you start over again, so a sixth mark is another d4.

so our Merc here, we can assign say 3 more marks to shooting, 2 marks to fighting, 2 marks to presence, 2 marks to investigation, 3 marks to observation, and one mark to evasion, lets say.

Finally, you get to pick 3 more gifts. Because these need to be tailored towards Mass Effect, i'm just going to pick 3 from a modified version of the Ironclaw game. Overconfidence (d12 die that you can declare before any action against an NPC, but your opponent gets a d12 back) Tracking, (d12 to following people/trails) and Toughness (re-roll your soak die if hit.)

So in the end, our character would look like this

Krogan Mercenary

Body: d10, Speed: d6, Mind: d4, Will: d5, Career: d6, Species: d8

Skills

Athletics: d8
Endurance: d8
Evasion: d4, d6
Fighting: d6, d6
Investigation: d6
Observation, d8
Presence: d6, d8
Shooting, d8, d6

Gifts
IT: Body
Brawling Combat
Frightening
Haggling
Resolve
Vetran
Toughness
Tracking
Overconfidence

So basically, that is character creation. As for using die, it is dependent on the situation. If you are tracking a guy, you may need to roll say speed, mind, observation, and bonus for tracking. so your roll would be a d6, d4, d8, and a d12. A d6 and d4 based on traits, d8 because of skill, and d12 because of the tracking bonus. You roll each seprately and basically count successes. More successes equal more likely you will track someone.

Works in combat too. shooting a guy with a shotgun would be say body, speed, and shooting, while a pistol may be just speed and shooting. Advanced rules can come into this too of couse but keeping it simple basically would be that at point blank. You can also tap your overconfidence and throw that in too.

So say in a combat situation your fighting a guy with a pistol, but hes a good shot. An unaimed shot with a shotgun with our Krogan would be d10, d6, d6, d8, and d12 with overconfidence thrown in. Your opponent with a pistol rolls his speed and shooting dice, plus overconfidence too, so say d8, d8 d12. The winner is whoever gets the higher numbers, so if your highest is a 9, and his is a 6, you win and hit him for damage.

It is a little more complicated honestly and to map it out I would have to explain more, like extra combat rules and what not. But I think the system might be more effective...in fact I might just adopt it myself.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .

[HNNNNNNG]

Wow, so I'm not alone
I'm actually making a mass effect DnD, but i'm basing it off of pathfinder instead of 4e. I wouldn't mind seeing how this comes out, all though I've only played 4e twice

[LinksOcarina]

HNNNNNNG wrote...

Wow, so I'm not alone
I'm actually making a mass effect DnD, but i'm basing it off of pathfinder instead of 4e. I wouldn't mind seeing how this comes out, all though I've only played 4e twice

Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.5 editition re-tooled, other than the streamlining of powers in 4th edition its basically that. 

[Ryumanjisen]

Actually, I am working in something similar too, but using the D&D 4th edition. Sadly it's in Spanish (my main language) but as soon as I translate it, I'll post the details here.

[HNNNNNNG]

I'm just going to avoid an edition war here.
Either way, I grant you much luck in creating this! It's something I would love to try when finished, even knowing I know I'll never be able to get a group for it.

Hard enough to even get my friends to actually make it to a game on time lol

[Texxaport]

The one thing I feel that is a bit of a cop-out is that I don't have a way to distinguish the spraying rapid fire weapons and the more accurate single shot ones in combat. In the end I decided to go with this system (as outlined on tumblr) for simplicity's sake and so my group wouldn't have to learn new (potentially difficult) rules.

Also...

Re. Ryumanjisen: I would very much like to hear how yours works out, keep me posted!

[lillitheris]

GURPS would work much better for this. I don’t think it impossible in Pathfinder or 4e either, though.

[JPVS]

Wow, more people working on ME conversions for tabletop RPGs! Nice to see
Personally, I'm making my own d20 game (last update included Earth DLC weapons and powers). It is not based on any specific rules, but rather on d20 rules in general

[NRieh]

GURPS would work much better for this.

^^^ I was just going to post this. ^^^

And I'd also think about some tweak of S.P.E.C.I.A.L.

[Texxaport]

I did consider other systems, specifically Gamma World (for firearms) but in the end decided on 4e based on the fact that my group is familiar with it.

[HNNNNNNG]

I had the same problem with rapid firing/one shot weapons and accuracy ratings. I'm thinking about just sticking with range increments (3.5/pathfinder) and the faster firing weapons will allow extra attacks with penalties

maybe anything there that could help? Just throwing it out there

[LinksOcarina]

HNNNNNNG wrote...

I had the same problem with rapid firing/one shot weapons and accuracy ratings. I'm thinking about just sticking with range increments (3.5/pathfinder) and the faster firing weapons will allow extra attacks with penalties

maybe anything there that could help? Just throwing it out there

Well, the rapid fire weapons can maybe do a penalty bonus for accuracy. For example, you get to shoot 4-5 shots a clip or whatever, but each subsequent shot suffers an accuracy penalty to hit because of recoil, which makes it only useful for closer-range firing or if you had modifications or what not. So you ge the extra attacks yes, but the chances of hitting the target 4-5 times decreases each time, where it would be rare to miss completely, or hit them with all 5 shots completely.

If you can somehow make it work where say an SMG would do decent enough damage despite and average of 3/5 shots hitting at a time, I think it could work well in Pathfinder rules. 

[Drussius]

Palladium rules worked a little differently for rapid-fire weapons. A burst from an automatic weapon gave a +1 bonus to attack rather than a penalty, because the odds of hitting the target when firing more than one bullet at a time were increased. It did x2 single bullet damage for a short burst (using up 20% of the clip and a single attack) and x5 for a long burst (using up 50% of the clip and a single attack), but could only be aimed at a single target. A full magazine spray at a single target did x10 damage and emptied the clip, using up two attacks.

However, if spraying an area, there was a -6 penalty because of the recoil combined with the fact that you're not concentrating on a single target. It used a single attack roll against all targets in the area, did x2 damage to anyone hit, but the number of targets actually hit was entirely random... you rolled 1d4 and the bullets hit the closest targets first. If you didn't roll high enough to hit all targets, the ones further away were missed by pure chance.

Modifié par Drussius, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .

[LinksOcarina]

Drussius wrote...

Palladium rules worked a little differently for rapid-fire weapons. A burst from an automatic weapon gave a +1 bonus to attack rather than a penalty, because the odds of hitting the target when firing more than one bullet at a time were increased. It did x2 single bullet damage for a short burst (using up 20% of the clip and a single attack) and x5 for a long burst (using up 50% of the clip and a single attack), but could only be aimed at a single target. A full magazine spray at a single target did x10 damage and emptied the clip, using up two attacks.

However, if spraying an area, there was a -6 penalty because of the recoil combined with the fact that you're not concentrating on a single target. It used a single attack roll against all targets in the area, did x2 damage to anyone hit, but the number of targets actually hit was entirely random... you rolled 1d4 and the bullets hit the closest targets first. If you didn't roll high enough to hit all targets, the ones further away were missed by pure chance.

But doesn't that make the SMG's over powered then, if they get the +1 bonus while aiming on a single target?Theoretically, it can drop a guy in two attacks with ease, if I am reading the calculations correctly above.

[Drussius]

Yes and no. You actually did way more damage by taking several aimed shots in the round instead of using bursts, because then each bullet did damage individually, and you burned through ammo REAL fast with automatic weapons. But the system was balanced a little by the fact that typially semi-autos did a TON more damage per bullet (like 5d6 or 6d6 for semi-auto pistols as opposed to the 2d6 base damage of most automatic SMGs... and 10d6 for semi-auto rifles as opposed to the 5d6 or 6d6 for automatic assault rifles).

Edit: But I think it was partially based on simple logic. I mean if you fire a single shot at a target, you might hit them, but it's more likely if you fire four, even if you factor in recoil.

Modifié par Drussius, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[LinksOcarina]

Drussius wrote...

Yes and no. You actually did way more damage by taking several aimed shots in the round instead of using bursts, because then each bullet did damage individually, and you burned through ammo REAL fast with automatic weapons. But the system was balanced a little by the fact that typially semi-autos did a TON more damage per bullet (like 5d6 or 6d6 for semi-auto pistols as opposed to the 2d6 base damage of most automatic SMGs... and 10d6 for semi-auto rifles as opposed to the 5d6 or 6d6 for automatic assault rifles).

Hmm...

I don't know, it seems like it favors SMG's still because statistically, it is deadlier via bursts and aimed shots versus semi-auto shots in a given situation, plus it moves faster and lets you take down enemies qucker than a semi-auto, I would assume at least. 

And how do things like rifles or shotguns enter this? One shot would be hard to compete with when you can do 2d6 or 5d6 per shot. 

[Drussius]

I believe shotguns did the same amount of damage as semi-auto rifles roughly. 10d6 per shot. Or 8d6 for scattershot, with half damage to other targets within 1 meter of the primary.

But in my experience with the system, bursts were nice when you needed accuracy for whatever reason, but I forgot to mention that you had +3 to strike with a single aimed shot. And the damage tended to balance out.

For example, let's say my character has four actions per round (3-4 per round was common in the system).

First I spray an enemy with my SMG in a long burst. If my attack hits, I roll the 2d6 for a single bullet and multiply by 5, so on a perfect roll I could do 60 damage. Let's just say 30 as the average. Now at the most, I can pull off one more long burst before my clip is empty, so with roughly average rolls I could do 60 for the whole round, since after that I have to use my remaining actions to reload.

If I instead pull my semi-automatic pistol, I could fire four times, dealing 5d6 with EACH shot, So assuming average damage of 15 per shot, again I could pull 60 damage for the full round, but in this case I would still have another full round of shots before I had to reload, so I'm burning through damage much slower, and I have a slightly higher chance to hit.

Besides, in that system automatic weapons had a tendency to jam on bad attack rolls. I forget the exact system, but I think it was an automatic jam on a roll of 1.


On point, however, the reason I brought it up was just to illustrate a different take on full-auto weapons. In hindsight, however, it's a poor example because I forgot about the added bonus for aimed shots. It would essentially be the same as having aimed shots be at normal chances and a burst at -2 penalty. Palladium did it as bonuses just because non-proficient shooters got +0 bonus for aimed shots and -6 for bursts.

[LinksOcarina]

 One of the tenants of the cardinal system is making stuff simple but effective. I think it might work better but keep in mind a lot of what is below is only really useful in the system it was created for, not GURPS or d20 or whatever. One way that this can work for like a shotgun at least is doing flat damage. No roll required, you do 4 points of damage guarenteed. 

This seems like a bad idea, but health in the cardinal system is basically six hit points. Everyone gets six hit points. Now, that seems like insanity, but here is how it works. First, you get two actions each turn, and they can be anything, from moving to aiming and shooting, to guarding to even jumping, climbing, etc. If you get hit with anything, you are automatically sent what is called "Reeling" which means you are exposed and next turn, you must take one action to recover from reeling.

A one point hit also makes you go "hurt", which can be removed during combat, but any time you get hit again you get a +1 hit damage added to it. 

A two point hit makes you "Afraid" which means you can't attack a person while being in line of sight of an enemy. So you need to go behind walls or duck for cover to get out of line of sight to have that removed automatically. This can also be rallied out by allies in battle, or you can tap a gift called Bravery to remove it any time you want, even in the thick of battle. 

A three point hit injures you. It works like hurt, except it is permanent and you have an injury quota. It also adds another point of damage (+2 damage if you have hurt and injured on your character.) 

A four point hit has you "dying". Basically, you are not dead, and you may recover. You have to roll your body die (which you assign your character) for three rounds. If you a roll a 1, you die. If you roll anything else you are knocked unconsious, you wake up and are sick or dazed, etc. 

A five point hit basically kills you. A six point hit or more, however, overkills you, which is the same thing only you are chunky salsa. However, it also has the bonus of making nearby enemies afraid if they don't have any gifts that cancel that out. So overkilling can turn the tide in a battle quick.

Now, this may seem really deadly, but a lot of things makes it less horrific. For starters, every player character gets an automatic gift called "combat save", which is a "get out of death free" gift. Basically, if you are hit and dying, you get to negate dying and go down to a normal status, IE reeling, hurt, afraid and injured. hit and now dead, it downgrades to dying, and overkill is dying but sick. 

Now I said earlier, combat is all different rolls. If a shotgun  by our Krogan mercenary in my above post would roll a d10, d6, d6, d8 in most scenarios. If any of them hit they do the modifier of the shotgun plus each hit.
So say the shotgun is a +1 critical, and you shoot a guy who has a defense of d6 and d6 to keep it simple. Each success you get is one point of damage, plus 1 all together for the +1 part, and the critical modifier gives you half of your successes. So say you get 2 hits, you add 1 for the +1, and you get half of your initial successes (2/1 is 1.)That is a 4 point hit on your target.

Now everyone gets soak, which is your body die, and your armor modifier. You also have gifts that add your will to your soak. So say our target is wearing normal armor and has an average body of d6. So he rolls d6 and d6. The basic rule of successes for each roll of the game is usually a 4 or higher. so if our target rolls a 4 and a 3, he soaks one of the three damage on him, and he hurt, afraid, and injured after being hit. 

so you can see how combat becomes more like a chess game based on weapon types and what not. The idea I was toying with for say, shotguns in this case, is to make them do a flat damage of 4. Every time you get hit, even if its only one success, you do 4 points of damage. This seems like very little for a shotgun, but keep in mind if you get hit and are hurt, that is upgraded to 5 points of damage, and injured is 6 points...so it can get deadly as you get hit. This could be also useful for close range, while medium range (12 meters or longer) shots would be a normal +1 critical or w/e modifier a shotgun would have. 

Another idea for SMG or some of the more automatic carbine assault rifles is two-fold. The first one is to make them counter weapons, meaning when you get attacked you can counter-attack automatically with a SMG or assualt rifle.  Normally, guns wouldn't get a counter-attack otherwise in the rules, meaning you have to shoot them on your turn, not the enemies turn. SMG's and carbine rifles also would be sweep weapons, meaning in a certain range in the game's rules, you can sweep to another target in that said range as long as they are within near range (which in the cardinal system is 4 meters) You roll to hit each character, and once you miss the roll is over.

There are also gift ideas that can be a "gift tree" for specailization for these. You need to buy a gift like say SMG combat expert, which unlocks the other gifts in the tree and maybe increases sweep range to medium range or something. And then you can access like following fire, which let's you shoot at the same target multiple times, regardless if you miss or not, at the cost of more ammo (which has to be tracked) or supressing fire, which acts as a stunt (that sends you reeling automatically) to make a fire zone that acts like an oppertunity attack on enemies moving in, or are in the zone, already. You just don't get any aim/damage bonuses that you can add, it is based off the SMG's base damage for the gun (+1, +1 critical, etc.) 

anyway, these are the ideas swimming in my head. Again this works in the cardinal system and not d20 or GURPS, but it is effective in balancing weapons. The basic rules I can think of for the weapons are as follows:

Heavy Pistols: run the gamut of everything, concealable (bonuses for sneak attacks) and dual wielding ( yes, there are rules for that) 
SMGS: sweep, counter 
Assault Rifles: some sweep, some counter. 
Shotguns: Flat damage weapons at short range, medium range or higher is normal modifiers for the weapon. 
Sniper Rifles: some slaying damage at long range (successes count as double, so one success is two points of damage before the +1 or w/e the modifier is) for one shot rifles, others can be a mix dependent on the rifle. 

This is not counting ammo mods, teach or biotic powers (which I am working on still), grenades or exotic weapons like missile launchers. Also, I am thinking of a way to incorporate overheating and infinite ammo weapons/particle rifles kind of like in game one, which might add a few more variances and drawbacks as weapon options.  I also need to map out how special abilities may work in this case, like the SMG/carbine tree I put up earlier that allows following fire and supressing fire, as an example. I would need to make a balanced tree for all five weapons. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 27 juillet 2012 - 03:47 .

[Ryumanjisen]

Didn't know the cardinal system (I'm afraid none of the Sanguine games have been released here), but I really like the concept of "reeling" when you are hit (reminds me of Anima: Beyond Fantasy) and being afraid when you lose your second hit point.

P.D: I'm working on the translation right now. I'll probably post something in a couple of days.

[Texxaport]

Sentinel is up.

[LinksOcarina]

Not a fan of the Sentinel as it stands, It feels way too limited as a pure soak up damage tank and it feels like it favors tech over biotics, although that may just be me reading into the omni-tool shield being a bit OP from what I read.

I also think its a huge mistake to not give it weapon training, although how to implement that would be difficult because the weapons in Mass Effect don't translate well to D&D format since most are ranged, unless if you plan on making several omni-blades and steel blades into the mix. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 04 août 2012 - 02:51 .