183 réponses à ce sujet

[Father_Jerusalem]

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

""We" (insomuch as you clump "us") do not like the unwashed masses being able to actually compete with us, the leet of the leet, so we will find anything we can to complain about and do our damndest to reduce useful weapons into obscurity. Then, and only then, will we be able to feel good about ourselves."

Fixed.

If that's how you want to percieve it, that's cool.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

It's not fair that I can't beat Platinum consistently, or that other people who are "better" at the game can beat higher difficulties and obtain credits more consistently than me. Everybody should be able to beat all the matches, all the time! Then, and only then, will we be able to feel good about ourselves.

Don't care about Platinum. Don't even really care about Gold. I'm not the best player in the world, and I know that. I play to have fun, not be stressed out and listen to a bunch of preteens yell homophobic slurs over their mics on XBL.

I have no problems with anyone who can beat the higher difficulties and obtain more credits than me. Congratulations, you're good at the game.

What I DO have a problem with is that the best players on the game demand that every weapon be balanced around THEM and THEIR specific class and THEIR specific mods, not around what the AVERAGE player can do.

[Anders028]

 

[InfamousResult]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Really? Because according to BioWare, the Piranha and the Krysae are parts of the game, yet you seem to be strongly in favor of removing their usefulness.

Odd, that you assume I've made any stance on the Piranha. It seems as though you have found a magical post I made which does not exist. Perhaps it is just that you, like so many others, like to make assumptions?

And no, it isn't the same thing. One is a mechanic that Bioware has made an official stance on- and it can either be taken away, or stay. The other is a gun which can be rebalanced, something that Bioware has also made an official stance on- they've said, to us in these forums, that balance changes are necessary for the game. They ask for our input, and encourage it.

[ryoldschool]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

""We" (insomuch as you clump "us") do not like the unwashed masses being able to actually compete with us, the leet of the leet, so we will find anything we can to complain about and do our damndest to reduce useful weapons into obscurity. Then, and only then, will we be able to feel good about ourselves."

Fixed.

If that's how you want to percieve it, that's cool.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

It's not fair that I can't beat Platinum consistently, or that other people who are "better" at the game can beat higher difficulties and obtain credits more consistently than me. Everybody should be able to beat all the matches, all the time! Then, and only then, will we be able to feel good about ourselves.

Don't care about Platinum. Don't even really care about Gold. I'm not the best player in the world, and I know that. I play to have fun, not be stressed out and listen to a bunch of preteens yell homophobic slurs over their mics on XBL.

I have no problems with anyone who can beat the higher difficulties and obtain more credits than me. Congratulations, you're good at the game.

What I DO have a problem with is that the best players on the game demand that every weapon be balanced around THEM and THEIR specific class and THEIR specific mods, not around what the AVERAGE player can do.

I posted this a long time ago, this is like asking Michael Jordan, in his prime, to modify the NBA rules to make the game more interesting to him.

[InfamousResult]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

What I DO have a problem with is that the best players on the game demand that every weapon be balanced around THEM and THEIR specific class and THEIR specific mods, not around what the AVERAGE player can do.

I'm sorry that I can't slip on the average player's high-tops and walk a mile in their shoes, so I have a "fair" opinion on the matter in your eyes. That's what Bioware, and their information gathering, is for- and for other players to share their experiences. Which wouldn't be a problem, but then you make it personal.

So, y'know.

You could always just stop doing that.

[Nicksta92]

godlike13 wrote...

Attention "Nerfers", STFU!

[Alex_Dur4and]

Volatile Device wrote...

Okay. The Piranha. Good ROF, good magazine size (8), fully automatic, good damage, light weight. Horrid accuracy, To really use this gun effectively, you must improve the accuracy. Smart Choke, any other options.

The problem with people calling for nerfs is that they see a weapon in combination with a certain class and power setup as overpowered, and then call the weapon itself overpowered. The truth is, it's very good with that setup and average with everything else.

The Krysae, for example, devastated in the hands of Infiltrators. In the hands of any other class, it really wasn't that good. I've seen many people use the Krysae with other classes and do alright, and I perform similar to that.

I use the Piranha with Damage and Accuracy mods on my N7 Destroyer. With Devastator Mode, specced Accuracy/Mag Size/Damage, with racial class fully specced for weapon damage, Fitness specced for Health/Shields, Armor-Piercing Rounds II, Shotgun Rail Amp II, Shotgun Amp V, and Stability Module II, I could bring myself to call the Piranha overpowered.

But on an Asari Adept? Not overpowered. Therefore, the weapon is overpowered in combination with certain classes, rather than "Overpowered, period."

I support balance, but I do not support nerfing a weapon simply because it's very good with some classes, as then, it would be OK with that class, and underpowered on other classes. That feels like taking one step forward, and then one step back again.

Hallelujah!! Some people get it!! This gives me hope...

Yeah! You nailed it alright!! The krysae, the typhoon, the harrier, the piranha (just to name those) are good weapons! They are even great weapons! But like stated here, they become overpowered in the right hands.

Why nerf the weapons?? Why not nerf the ability that makes the weapon overpowered?? If you nerf the weapons, you inderectly make other classes that could use some extra combat punch suffer without a valid reason!!

I learned to love the Asari Vanguard again, thanks to the piranha! I can play her on gold and even on platinum now. If this weapon becomes nerfed because of the "Devastator mode" or because of "Marksmen", it will make me angry as my vanguard needed a rapid fire, in-your-face, damage dealing weapon.

For example: in order to decrease the typhoon damage abuse, in the last balance changes, the weapon received a drastic cut to it's piercing potential... Who really suffered from this draw back? The Destroyer?? The Turian Soldier?? Of course not... it was the Krogan Soldier, the Batarian Soldiers, the Turian Sentinel, etc... THEY really needed the extra punch...

I don't think that the Krysea would have received such a huge slap from the nerf stick if it would have been an assault riffle... The "tac-Cloak" was the only problem with the Krysae and Bioware decided to nerf both...  In order to keep the Krysae in check as a sniper riffle, the extra level 6 cloak damage given to sniper riffles is not high enough and this affects all the sniper riffles that desperately need the boost.

However, the level 4 Tac-Cloack power for all damage in general, combined with "devastator mode" and "marksmen"  are putting a few other weapons at risk of being nerfed in the future... And we all know which ones they are...

Modifié par Alex_Dur4and, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:27 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

What I DO have a problem with is that the best players on the game demand that every weapon be balanced around THEM and THEIR specific class and THEIR specific mods, not around what the AVERAGE player can do.

I'm sorry that I can't slip on the average player's high-tops and walk a mile in their shoes, so I have a "fair" opinion on the matter in your eyes. That's what Bioware, and their information gathering, is for- and for other players to share their experiences. Which wouldn't be a problem, but then you make it personal.

So, y'know.

You could always just stop doing that.

Really? You're telling me that if I don't like nerfs, I should stop playing the game, and you're telling ME not to get personal?

REALLY?

I'm sorry that I can't poopsock it like you no-lifers and be as "leet" as you. Not everyone is up to your "skillz" (nuking spawn points? reeeeeeeal skilled).

You want to treat me as trash because I'm not up to your level? Whatever. I'd rather be "trash" and try to make the game as fun for EVERYONE as possible, than sit there and demand that only the top .5% be able to enjoy MP.

[ryoldschool]

InfamousResult wrote...



And no, it isn't the same thing. One is a mechanic that Bioware has made an official stance on- and it can either be taken away, or stay. The other is a gun which can be rebalanced, something that Bioware has also made an official stance on- they've said, to us in these forums, that balance changes are necessary for the game. They ask for our input, and encourage it.

So, you don't see an anti-balance element in reload-cancelling?

[Father_Jerusalem]

Alex_Dur4and wrote...

Volatile Device wrote...

Okay. The Piranha. Good ROF, good magazine size (8), fully automatic, good damage, light weight. Horrid accuracy, To really use this gun effectively, you must improve the accuracy. Smart Choke, any other options.

The problem with people calling for nerfs is that they see a weapon in combination with a certain class and power setup as overpowered, and then call the weapon itself overpowered. The truth is, it's very good with that setup and average with everything else.

The Krysae, for example, devastated in the hands of Infiltrators. In the hands of any other class, it really wasn't that good. I've seen many people use the Krysae with other classes and do alright, and I perform similar to that.

I use the Piranha with Damage and Accuracy mods on my N7 Destroyer. With Devastator Mode, specced Accuracy/Mag Size/Damage, with racial class fully specced for weapon damage, Fitness specced for Health/Shields, Armor-Piercing Rounds II, Shotgun Rail Amp II, Shotgun Amp V, and Stability Module II, I could bring myself to call the Piranha overpowered.

But on an Asari Adept? Not overpowered. Therefore, the weapon is overpowered in combination with certain classes, rather than "Overpowered, period."

I support balance, but I do not support nerfing a weapon simply because it's very good with some classes, as then, it would be OK with that class, and underpowered on other classes. That feels like taking one step forward, and then one step back again.

Hallelujah!! Some people get it!! This gives me hope...

Yeah! You nailed it alright!! The krysae, the typhoon, the harrier, the piranha (just to name those) are good weapons! They are even great weapons! But like stated here, they become overpowered in the right hands.

Why nerf the weapons?? Why not nerf the ability that makes the weapon overpowered?? If you nerf the weapons, you inderectly make other classes that could use some extra combat punch suffer without a valid reason!!

I learned to love the Asari Vanguard again, thanks to the piranha! I can play her on gold and even on platinum now. If this weapon becomes nerfed because of the "Devastator mode" or because of "Marksmen", it will make me angry as my vanguard needed a rapid fire, in-your-face, damage dealing weapon.

I don't think that the Krysea would have received such a huge slap from the nerf stick if it would have been an assault riffle... The "tac-Cloak" was the only problem with the Krysae and Bioware decided to nerf both...  In order to keep the Krysae in check as a sniper riffle, the extra level 6 cloak damage given to sniper riffles is not high enough and this affects all the sniper riffles that desperately need the boost.

However, the level 4 Tac-Cloack power for all damage in general, combined with "devastator mode" and "marksmen"  are putting a few other weapons at risk of being nerfed in the future... And we all know which ones they are...

Well if they balanced the power (the actual problem) then that would mean they would have a harder time completing Platinum speed runs.

They don't want to make things difficult for THEM, just for us unwashed masses, so we never ever try to think about playing with them.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

InfamousResult wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The problem I have with nerfers is they ALWAYS focus on weakening things. They argue that a specific weapon is OP, while ignoring the numerous UP weapons in the game. Right now, for every 1 weapon in the game right now that is powerful on Gold/Platinum, there are 4 or 5 that are unusable on Gold/Platinum. How come nerfers never call attention to these? They're so worried about too many people using a particular weapon or class. But they totally ignore the idea that fewer people would latch on to a handful of weapons if there was a wider variety of viable weapons to choose from.

The best idea is to BUFF the weak weapons FIRST; then and only then should we be taking nerfing into consideration.

I just prioritize differently than you.

The irony is that, rather than seeing anybody make "Please Buff This" threads, I only see them making "I HATE NERFER" threads. You would think that, if they actually believed that we were so adversely affecting Bioware's decisions just by making threads with facts and opinions, they would do the same- but asking for Buffs, rather than spewing mindless insults all day long.

C'est la vie, no?

There are threads asking for buffs every day, so I can't say I agree with this.  The one on the first page talking about how underpowered sniper rifles supposedly now are is one example.

We've seen what the results of weapon nerfs are - they ruin weapons.  They don't simply "balance" weapons or tweak them by small amounts.  They break them to the point they're unusable, or at most niche weapons that are used once in a blue moon for variety.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:27 .

[L.ast L.ife]

This thread is absolutely exceptional. I would read again and I may even drop one of my trademark "SWANK" bombs in here at a later date. 33/10.

[d_nought]

InfamousResult wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

You did not say whether you support reload cancel removal.

I'm either/or on reload cancel- I have no strong opinion on it, mostly because I don't think it strongly affects the game to have it, or that it would strongly affect matches if it was taken away. But Bioware has made an official statement that it's part of the game, so as far as I'm concerned, that's like asking me if I support the use of cover.

( yes i support the use of cover )

And if it was seen that the advantage gained by Claymore reload cancel was significantly greater than that of most other weapons? If I saw something like that, I'd argue that it's pretty inconsistent and deserves to be looked at. AFAIK the Claymore gets about half of its reload time cut off with reload cancel, whereas most other heavy weapons only get about 25%.

That said, there's a lot of pettiness whenever these debates roll around, and it makes me want to roll my eyes into the back of my head. Luckily Bioware has the stats for the majority of the player base and doesn't listen to the forums exclusively, so I barely post in these threads anyway. Balance ALL the Things is basically the only place where constructive discussion about this sort of thing happens, both for and against balance changes.

[InfamousResult]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Really? You're telling me that if I don't like nerfs, I should stop playing the game, and you're telling ME not to get personal?

You realize that post you're talking about was an almost word-for-word parody of a post I had quoted, right?

Insert slow clap here.

[Father_Jerusalem]

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Really? You're telling me that if I don't like nerfs, I should stop playing the game, and you're telling ME not to get personal?

You realize that post you're talking about was an almost word-for-word parody of a post I had quoted, right?

Insert slow clap here.

You mean where the guy said "If you don't like a gun, don't use it?" and you came back with "if you don't like nerfs, don't play the game"?

Yes. Because those are the exact same comparison.

[Lucifuture]

techslave33 wrote...

thats not how it works. burden of proof is ALWAYS on the plaintiff. we dont have to prove anything. the devs thought it was fine and put it in game. that is the proof, ok?

YOU prove how it is such a detriment to have someone with XYZ class weapon skill combo playing in your game. tell me how it is getting you killed because it is OP. YOU prove to the devs they were wrong and something is broken.

This, totally this.

[InfamousResult]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

There are threads asking for buffs every day, so I can't say I agree with this.  The one on the first page talking about how underpowered sniper rifles supposedly now are is one example.

We've seen what the results of weapon nerfs are - they ruin weapons.  They don't simply "balance" weapons or tweak them by small amounts.  They break them to the point they're unusable, or at most niche weapons that are used once in a blue moon for variety.

And yet here we are, in this thread, rather than that thread. Curious.

The only weapon I would agree was "ruined" ( or rather, was a pointless nerf to begin with ) was the Kishock. Everything else, I still see used in great numbers and to great effectiveness ( which really just speaks waves about how powerful they were to begin with, if the nerfs were so "severe" ). The Krysae is still being used, still useful- as is the Falcon. And I disagree that crowd control is a "niche".

[COLZ7R]

@father jerusalem
ignore them mate, its pointless. just let them screw the game then move on. unfortunatlly thats the stance i have taken, enjoy a game for a few months before the "leet" bugger it up for the rest. Its the best anyone can hope for.
i have NEVER seen one class or one weapon dominate game after game and i have been playing from day 1. Just typical web overstating everything and little people who in real life have no say in anything trying to feel "big" pathetic really

[CmnDwnWrkn]

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

What I DO have a problem with is that the best players on the game demand that every weapon be balanced around THEM and THEIR specific class and THEIR specific mods, not around what the AVERAGE player can do.

I'm sorry that I can't slip on the average player's high-tops and walk a mile in their shoes, so I have a "fair" opinion on the matter in your eyes. That's what Bioware, and their information gathering, is for- and for other players to share their experiences. Which wouldn't be a problem, but then you make it personal.

So, y'know.

You could always just stop doing that.

Unfortunately, many nerfers do not communicate their concerns in a "here's my experience for what it's worth" type of way. They latch on to a specific weapon and attack it with obsessive persistence until they get their way. It comes across as, "I know what's best for the game, and what's best is to nerf this weapon, and I won't shut up about it ever." Complete with pseudo-scientific "experiments" and fabricated data and "facts". There's a witch hunt quality to every nerf campaign.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .

[InfamousResult]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

You mean where the guy said "If you don't like a gun, don't use it?" and you came back with "if you don't like nerfs, don't play the game"?

Yes. Because those are the exact same comparison.

Okay, you're missing the point ( which was that your original post was accusing me of being "too personal" because of a word-for-word parody of a previously quoted post, something you failed to grasp )- but let's start simple.

Do you believe in the "if you don't like it, don't use it" mantra?

Do you believe that mantra still stands true if the thing you don't like can still affect your game?

Do you believe in kicking players for using guns you don't like?

[ryoldschool]

chipsandwich wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

You did not say whether you support reload cancel removal.

I'm either/or on reload cancel- I have no strong opinion on it, mostly because I don't think it strongly affects the game to have it, or that it would strongly affect matches if it was taken away. But Bioware has made an official statement that it's part of the game, so as far as I'm concerned, that's like asking me if I support the use of cover.

( yes i support the use of cover )

And if it was seen that the advantage gained by Claymore reload cancel was significantly greater than that of most other weapons? If I saw something like that, I'd argue that it's pretty inconsistent and deserves to be looked at. AFAIK the Claymore gets about half of its reload time cut off with reload cancel, whereas most other heavy weapons only get about 25%.

That said, there's a lot of pettiness whenever these debates roll around, and it makes me want to roll my eyes into the back of my head. Luckily Bioware has the stats for the majority of the player base and doesn't listen to the forums exclusively, so I barely post in these threads anyway. Balance ALL the Things is basically the only place where constructive discussion about this sort of thing happens, both for and against balance changes.

Its kind of hard to believe that someone is serious about balance in a game when they ignore the anti-balance function that this feature.

[InfamousResult]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Unfortunately, many nerfers do not communicate their concerns in a "here's my experience for what it's worth" type of way. They latch on to a specific weapon and attack it with obsessive persistence until they get their way. It comes across as, "I know what's best for the game, and what's best is to nerf this weapon, and I won't shut up about it ever." Complete with pseudo-scientific "experiments" and fabricated data and "facts". There's a witch hunt quality to every nerf campaign.

Curious, but I'd like to know why you think the "data and 'facts'" are fabricated? Did you look into it, and find them to be otherwise? Likewise, have you seen the arguments of self-proclaimed "anti-nerfers"? How many of them have given a "here's my experience for what it's worth" discussion, rather than a "lol nerfers just mad st*u" post?

[Father_Jerusalem]

InfamousResult wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

You mean where the guy said "If you don't like a gun, don't use it?" and you came back with "if you don't like nerfs, don't play the game"?

Yes. Because those are the exact same comparison.

Okay, you're missing the point ( which was that your original post was accusing me of being "too personal" because of a word-for-word parody of a previously quoted post, something you failed to grasp )- but let's start simple.

Do you believe in the "if you don't like it, don't use it" mantra?

Do you believe that mantra still stands true if the thing you don't like can still affect your game?

Do you believe in kicking players for using guns you don't like?

There are methods in which you can decide whether or not to allow a gun in your game.

1. Don't, personally, use the gun.
2. Set up a private game with friends who don't use the gun.
3. Attempt, in public lobbies, to kick people who use the gun you don't like.
3a. Alternatively, find a public lobby with people who are not using the gun you don't like.

Now, let me ask you a question, do YOU believe that a game should be balance around the Top .05% of players with top tier mods and top tier equipment?

[ryoldschool]

InfamousResult wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Unfortunately, many nerfers do not communicate their concerns in a "here's my experience for what it's worth" type of way. They latch on to a specific weapon and attack it with obsessive persistence until they get their way. It comes across as, "I know what's best for the game, and what's best is to nerf this weapon, and I won't shut up about it ever." Complete with pseudo-scientific "experiments" and fabricated data and "facts". There's a witch hunt quality to every nerf campaign.

Curious, but I'd like to know why you think the "data and 'facts'" are fabricated? Did you look into it, and find them to be otherwise? Likewise, have you seen the arguments of self-proclaimed "anti-nerfers"? How many of them have given a "here's my experience for what it's worth" discussion, rather than a "lol nerfers just mad st*u" post?

Dude, I guess you have not seen any of my posts.

[upinya slayin]

InfamousResult wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

1) most people who call for nerfs play alot of bronze and silver. you cna't base a guns power on a low difficulty. It hsould be based on the damage it does on platinum and gold.

honestly too tired to read the rest but

no

First: Prove what you said, it sounds like you just pulled it right out from between your cheeks.

Second: Dear god, do NOT balance this game around Platinum. Unless a gun is making Platinum, the hardest difficulty, somehow easy for a good chunk of players, they should not balance around Platinum. They should not consider a gun "weak" if it's too weak for Platinum, they should never use Platinum as the basis for what's too weak, never.

We were given Platinum because too many people found Gold to be too easy. If they start balancing around Platinum, we're going to need the goddamn Diamond-Encrusted Goblet of Fire difficulty, and then Dumbledore is going to raise his voice at ALL of you because you put your names in it.

Just from reading comments and looking at manifests you can see what people have and what leevl they play. I read a post about someone saying the typhoon was OP becuase it was mowing down eveyrhting on silver. Its a running joke with the peeps i play with about how dumb some of the comments are that people make here.

and why is your manifest hidden? only 2 reasons you suck and don't want people to know taht or you cheated and have everyhting to 10 but still suck. either way all you want to do is argue and your not worth my time so your on my ignore list now. have fun trolling others